Really Stupid Ideas


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Keith
September 22, 2003, 03:27 PM
I actually knew a really stupid guy who told me this really stupid thing he does with bullets.

He fills hollowpoints with mercury and caps it with melted wax under the theory that the lead becomes liquid and the bullet becomes some sort of super-frangible round...

I did take the time to point out to him that he'd likely be breathing a fine mercury/lead vapor every time he fired one of these. This didn't seem to bother him... but, of course he's already pretty stupid and the heavy metal poisoning could hardly make him worse.

The good news is he no longer lives here and is now down in the lower 48 some place - probably one of your neighbors...

Anybody heard anything dumb enough to match that?

Keith

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Mark Tyson
September 22, 2003, 03:37 PM
Where did he get that idea, a movie? There's no way anything like that could work. Actually, I have heard that there used to be poisoned bullets back in the early 20th century. They would do something similar - putting chemicals in the hollow tip of a bullet and sealing it. This was before poison bullets were banned by treaty.

bogie
September 22, 2003, 03:45 PM
Actually, I doubt if he's inhaling mercury, unless he's shooting indoors or he's exposing himself while loading 'em. Theory is that they behave like a glaser - the bullet stops, the contents keep going. I've been thinking that it'd be interesting to try shooting an ice-filled and pointed jacket...

Thumper
September 22, 2003, 03:45 PM
Lengthy discussion here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=116467&highlight=mercury+bullets

FireInTheHole
September 22, 2003, 03:45 PM
Hmm I always thought doing that would cause the bullet to explode when compressed....

Wasnt there a media hype about these 'dum dum' bullets some time ago?

PS: I would rather have a bullet filled with a timed fuze HE load like the military uses in their 20-30mm cannon rds. I doubt you could make one small enough for a 9mm though. :D

EDIT: G--DAMN! TFL has some great threads on it. I learned more about mercury in that thread than a whole semester of inorganic chem last year!

Keith
September 22, 2003, 03:46 PM
I don't know where he got the idea - probably from some conspiracy web site.

The same guy shot the tip of his finger off playing with some little pot-metal .25... He said it seemed like a good idea at the time to place his left hand index finger up near the muzzle to steady the little gun...

Keith

Keith
September 22, 2003, 03:51 PM
I just assume that any liquid is going to be ejected at the muzzle from the spinning of the bullet. I don't know, and I'm not crazy enough to experiment and find out!

Keith

bogie
September 22, 2003, 03:59 PM
It likely ain't gonna be going sideways.

"explosive" bullets generally don't work very well. Folks have tried 'em on big game, and discovered that an elephant with a dinner-plate size chunk of muscle blown out of his side is a very _angry_ elephant.

I remembered someone said they were going to try gluing a primer into a hollowpoint...

Keith
September 22, 2003, 04:02 PM
Put a glass of water on a potters spinning thingy and then turn it on. I suspect you'll be wet if you're standing next to it. The centrifugal force (methinks) would throw the water from the container.

Keith

Thumper
September 22, 2003, 04:05 PM
I remembered someone said they were going to try gluing a primer into a hollowpoint...

FWIW...a BB glued to a shotgun shell primer will fit exactly into a sawed off crossbow bolt half filled with blackpowder.

Misspent youth and run on sentences...

!BANG!

:evil:

C.R.Sam
September 22, 2003, 04:11 PM
Thumper....thanks for finding and posting that link. Covers the question quite well.

Sam

BryanP
September 22, 2003, 05:54 PM
Where did he get that idea, a movie?

I have a vague memory of seeing Charles Bronson filling hollowpoints with mercury and capping it over in a similar manner in some movie. It's been many years, so I couldn't tell you what movie.

Quartus
September 22, 2003, 06:07 PM
Wuz it a Bronson movie...


Er wuz it Day of the Jackal, where the assasin buys some "mercury" bullets from his supplier? They never did make clear if that was actually mercury liquid filled bullet or if they were filled with mercury FULMINATE, which is explosive.

Liquid mercury is not explosive.

AK103K
September 22, 2003, 06:33 PM
How about drilling military 45acp ball out, inserting a 22 blank in the hole so the primer faces front and then shoot mag after mag of these full auto from a M3 Greasegun. :rolleyes:
I had a boy swear they used to do this "in the Nam". He even had all his fingers and toes, and a bunch more silly storys. I'll bet you boys can shoot a whole mag of tracers from an M14 on full auto into 4" at 100 meters, cant ya? I know I can! :D

Quartus
September 22, 2003, 06:43 PM
Man, that'd take a heap of drilling. Where'd they get the time?


Oh, I see. They did that in between their ultra-top-secret missions to Beijing, right?

Right.



If only these make-it-up-as-you-go superheroes knew how stupid they look with their stories....

longtom4570
September 22, 2003, 06:56 PM
There i was :p :rolleyes: :evil:

Cacique500
September 22, 2003, 07:29 PM
Thanks Thumper...that thread was a great read!

greyhound
September 22, 2003, 07:44 PM
Ummm, yeah...that would be great...(obscure "Office Space" reference).

Does this fool realize what a civil suit attorney would do to him if he actually shot a BG with those things? Geez, some people are actually paranoid about getting sued for HPs, much less poisoned ammo...:rolleyes:

einnor1040
September 22, 2003, 07:55 PM
There was a CSI show where some guy made a bullet out of frozen hamburger meat and shot someone. They found the dna didn't match during the autopsie and caught the guy. It looks to me like the frozen meat bullet would thaw out really fast. Seemed kinda far fetched to me.

Brian Williams
September 22, 2003, 09:53 PM
The mercury in the EXPLODING bullet was from the book Day of the Jackal and it was mercury fulminate that was put in the hollow point of a bullet. Fulminate of mercury is what primers in 22lr were made of at on time. Mercury fulminate is very explosive and will explode when placed under pressure or from a sudden impact.

synoptic
September 22, 2003, 10:05 PM
Jaws had a scene where the chief of police was filling his hollowtips with cyanide or something...

Quartus
September 22, 2003, 10:07 PM
Those "snapper caps" that you throw on the ground (or your buddy's head) to make them explode are typically silver fulminate and some coarse sand.

son of a gun
September 22, 2003, 10:20 PM
Breathing vaporized Mercury is very hazardous but a lot of people have ingested liquid mercury from broken medical thermometers with no immediate health repercussions, 10 years down the road who knows.

I have heard of people filling the shot part of shot gun shells with rock salt to shoot nuisance dogs. Which I kinda thought was stupid theres still plenty of tissue damage and an infection is just as likely with rock salt and of course it inhumane and illegal.

Zundfolge
September 22, 2003, 10:29 PM
FWIW...a BB glued to a shotgun shell primer will fit exactly into a sawed off crossbow bolt half filled with blackpowder.

Misspent youth and run on sentences...

!BANG!

:evil:


also works with a model rocket engine and some glued on fins

Misspent youth here too (mom's amazed I still have all 10 fingers) :neener:

JohnKSa
September 22, 2003, 10:30 PM
Salt is much less dense than lead and will not penetrate significantly except at VERY close ranges.

A salt infused wound is going to be painful, but not particularly likely to get infected--at least not for awhile.

Not recommending the practice, BTW.

Preacherman
September 22, 2003, 10:32 PM
Especially because you would then be charged with a-salt and battery...

:evil: :neener: :p :D

CGofMP
September 22, 2003, 10:43 PM
This little "trick" was shown in a movie called "The Exterminator" which was released in 1980. It is a movie about a Vietnam Vet who has had 'enough' and the results are pretty easy to guess. I saw The Exterminator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304970412/ref=nosim/them1garaanam-20) when it first came out, and I was nto all that impressed. It did show a lot of step-by-step things that you would be best not doing... rememebr the gasoline in the lightbulb scene?

Anyway.... The protagonist does the mercury thing using melted solder to seal the tip of the bullet. I always wondered how the hot solder wouldnt expand the mercury to a point it would just overflow...

In any event, I never tried this and sure as H do not advocate anyone doing so as Mercury can be bad Ju Ju.... not to mention I bet you run afoul of several laws.

But this is where *I* first heard of it.

ceetee
September 22, 2003, 10:43 PM
I usedta know some farmers who loaded 12 ga shells with rock salt when they were having trouble with predators (2 legged and four legged both) getting into the henhouse...

They'd go out at any sounds, and if they saw a fox or somesuch, he'd get the right barrel (loaded with lead), but if they saw a man, or somebody's dog, he'd get the left one... It worked wonders!

Don Gwinn
September 22, 2003, 11:12 PM
Great-grandpa stopped a chicken robbery in progress with rock salt one night when dad was a young boy (woulda been the late 1950s, I think.) Next day he went to the doctor's office. The doc admitted to treating a nasty buttocks wound but absolutely refused to give up the identity of the would-be thief. He said the man, in the process of extracting a promise not to reveal his identity to Pawpaw, gave him a message to pass along: he would never, ever, ever again attempt to steal from the Costa house!
The family has always been convinced it must have been someone who knew Pawpaw, but nobody ever really had a guess as to whom.

Double Naught Spy
September 22, 2003, 11:58 PM
So Keith, can your buddy explain how it is that the mercury is going to make the lead molten, hence making it a super frangible round? If the mercury softens or dissolves the lead as claimed on the thread at TFL, just what is the shelf life of mercury filled hollowpoints before the mercury compromises the integrity of the bullet such that it won't perform properly?

In the movie "Jaws," the cop loaded up hollowpoint ammo with something like cyanide and capped the liquid in the poin with wax.

As noted, the mercury could spin out via the centrif. force. It will no doubt spin out as the wax is not going to be strong enough to handle the acceleration, spin, and heat.

Quartus
September 23, 2003, 12:35 AM
explain how it is that the mercury is going to make the lead molten


It doesn't make it molten, it dissolves it. I've played with mercury and .22 pellets just to see it happen after reading about it. (Thet wuz back aways.) It's what the dentist does to get the silver into your teeth - he mixes sliver with mercury (and traces of some other stuff, IIRC) and then he can press the mixture (called an amalgam) into the cavity. It has a working time, like concrete, so I'm not sure what would actually happen to a bullet filled with mercury. The ratios of the two also plays into this. Enough mercury and you can dissolve the lead completely.

Skunkabilly
September 23, 2003, 12:46 AM
What about poisonous tadpoles in a shotshell?

Hand_Rifle_Guy
September 23, 2003, 01:44 AM
My theory on a mercury-filled hollowpoint is this:

Hollowpoints have a bugaboo: they're unreliable expanders. Regardless of the design, hollowpoints expand because of hydraulic action. Hydrashocks and Eldorado starfires use fancy internal configurations to distribute the hydraul;ic action to improve functional expansion.

Hydraulic principles work on the premise of "Liquids cannot compress". Hollowpoints driven into flesh rarely look like the perfect mushrooms from gelatin tests because flesh is not entirely a liquid, and makes for an inconsistent hydraulic medium. Additionally, hollowpoints can become clogged with cloth or other non-liquid materials on their way into a target, which prevents hydraulic influence on the bullet's interior construction, preventing expansion.

However, if one were to pre-fill a hollowpoint cavity with some sort of liquid, it would lessen the chance of clogging, and assist in the expansion of the bullet merely from forward impact.

Mercury's a lousy choice, for it's lead-disolving tendencies, as noted above. Wax would probably work ok.

Also, you can't fire paintballs from rifled barrels, as the liquid contents act as a fluid damper on the rotation, and quickly destabilize the ball, removing the accurrizing benefits. I would think that .filling a hollowpoint with something that remains a liquid would act to destabilize a bullet, considering the level of forces involved with the high RPM achieved in rifled bullets.

As for poisoning targets, as if shooting them isn't lethal enough, a drop or two of bore cleaner on any exposed lead would guarantee swift lead poisoning, as that changes the lead into a readily soluble form, as opposed to bullets, which are routinely left in people's bodies when they're in difficult to remove or non-threatening locations with no ill affects. Lead in mettalic form is reasonably inert. So is mercury, for that matter. Either, however, in vaporised form, or as a soluble compound, can be virulently toxic.

son of a gun
September 23, 2003, 02:08 AM
I read that the military has even 7.62x51 bullets made from depleted uranium, I thought they used them only for large anti-tank rounds only.

MuzzleBlast
September 23, 2003, 09:44 AM
unless he's shooting indoors or he's exposing himself while loading 'emTo whom? :D

Quartus
September 23, 2003, 10:14 AM
Lead in mettalic form is reasonably inert. So is mercury, for that matter.



Yup. Somewhere in a back issue of the National Geographic Magazine is a photo of a miner in a mercury mine. He's fully clothed, floating in a pool of mercury. Hmm. More like ON a pool of merury - the stuff is pretty dense. They spent time each day in a sauna to sweat the mercury out of their pores. If it were all that poisonous, doncha tink somebuddy would have noticed the miners dropping like flies?

That was in the '60s or '70s, so it's not like we're talking about some ancient times where nobody knew or cared about such things.

Keith
September 23, 2003, 11:55 AM
This is all very educational, but I was really hoping to see some other dumb gun ideas we've heard about or seen demonstrated.

What's the dumbest thing you've ever seen?

Keith

Abominable No-Man
September 23, 2003, 11:56 AM
This is one of those things that someone thought would be cool to do in a movie. Then, of course, someone watched that movie and said "Hey, that would be cool to do in real life."

Kind of like all the little gangsta wannabes trying to shoot holding their pistols sideways, or watching a car explode when it gets hit in the engine by a bullet.


:banghead: :cuss: ing frustrating.

ANM

bogie
September 23, 2003, 02:35 PM
Back around 1980, there was a frat boy at the University of Kentucky who was at a party, and ducked into the yard next door to take a whiz.

Well, the home owner was an old boy who had grown VERY tired of the frat rats waterin' his daisies. Junior got hit in the butt and back of his legs with a load of rock salt. He was on crutches for a LONG time... I think the ol' boy was also charged and sued.

At closer range, a load of rock salt will go right through a man.

WvaBill
September 25, 2003, 08:14 PM
I did think that Mercury was not a good idea in a HP, but a friend (LEO at the time) was hunting with an LEO friend. When they got in the SUV he checked the safety by carressing the trigger:uhoh: . I wasn't there, but that was the explanation both gave for the holes in the floorboardand tire. Plus a cast aluminum wheel permanently out of balance. If that was not the truth, what could have been a worse scenario?

jimpeel
September 25, 2003, 09:25 PM
If one fills a shotshell with mercury the resulting wound would be devastating. The material would be impossible to remove completely and the resultant poisoning would likely take out the victim regardless of where they were hit. We are, of course, speaking of an extremely short range round.

AUTIGER04
September 25, 2003, 09:38 PM
A guy at work told me that he dips the HPs in "Mercury". He claims a bullet wound with Mercury will not heal.:confused: He claims to have learned this in the Military.:eek:

jimpeel
September 25, 2003, 11:05 PM
He fills hollowpoints with mercury and caps it with melted wax ...The thought for the day is ...

centrifugal force!

The heavy mercury would be thrown against the sides of the cavity he drilled by the force of the spinning bullet. The consequence thereof would be the mercury being thrown out of the round before it had traveled more than about three feet. The wax would not hold the mercury from being expelled with great force in a lateral spray. Perhaps he could put out the eye of a bystander standing to the side of the muzzle.

Fed168
September 25, 2003, 11:14 PM
I recovered some rounds that were crosshatched by the person possessing them- he thought that they would expand better and cause death defying wounds.

Saw it on TV.

4v50 Gary
September 25, 2003, 11:36 PM
What an idjit. Why, everybody knows that depleted uranium is much more effective as an insert for lead. :D

jimpeel
September 26, 2003, 01:15 AM
Mercury in its liquid form is not particularly poisonous. Most of it will pass unabsorbed through the digestive tract. It will not go through the skin readily and handling liquid mercury with the bare hands is not particularly dangerous. It is when it is converted into salts or vapor that it becomes so. Mercuric Chloride and other mercuric compounds are readily absorbed both in the digestive tract and through the skin.

If one ingests liquid mercury the effects will be nil. Most mercuric poisonings occur from things like mercury based glaze on pottery that has been inadequately fired. When the pottery is used to eat or drink from, the residual mercury is leached into the food. It is at this time that the mercury is poisonous. Foods which are high in acidity, such as tomatoes or citric juices, are the worst. A plate of spaghetti, eaten from a misfired plate, will cause more serious poisoning than the ingestion of the entire contents of a mercury thermometer.

Mercury is an accumulative poison wherein the body retains the compound. The more you take in, the more poisoned you get. This is true with most heavy metal poisoning.

Since mercury poisoning mimics autism http://www.whale.to/a/autism7.html , doctors have to be aware of the differences in children. Chart (http://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm)

Zach S
September 26, 2003, 11:39 AM
Put a glass of water on a potters spinning thingy and then turn it on. I suspect you'll be wet if you're standing next to it. The centrifugal force (methinks) would throw the water from the container. Ok, first i think theyre called "potter's wheels" but I wont swear to it.

But the point is that if it were centered, or close to it, it would stay. Nothing would happen, just a glass spinning on a potters wheel with water in it. Boring. However, move it towards the outside of the wheel and it gets unstable, things can get a little more exciting, but not much.

Taking the gaurd off of a fan can be fun but want at first. After sitting a marble in the middle, i was like "OK, that suucks" Dropping a mable in the center was just as boring, but with more effort. Throwing marbles into the blades was fun, but beside the point. Taping a good sized marble to the outside edge of a blade resulted in a "dancing fan" (since the balance was off), a broken window in the front door (the tape gave after a few seconds), as well as a broken weindow in a dodge something...

/me also has a misspent youth.

zastros
September 26, 2003, 12:45 PM
A friend of mine, during the misspent youth portion, actually did the mercury load in his .357. At the quarry where we shot stuff he tried a few out. A regular hollowpoint would penetrate one side of a 55 gal. drum and make a nice dent in the other side. The mercury fills would pentrate both sides leaving a more impressive hole in the back. I don't recall being sprayed with mercury as he fired them. (of course, I don't recall where my keys are now, so what does that prove.) They were pretty inaccurate and were pretty fragile too. He decided that they, along with his crosshatched hollowpoints and his homemade tumbler bullets [YIKES!], were useless and would get him put in prison if he used them.
I, luckily, used a semi-auto and couldn't try exotic rounds.

We used to be young and stupid. Now we're no longer young.

zastros

Quartus
September 26, 2003, 01:04 PM
zastros - :D



Most mercuric poisonings occur from things like mercury based glaze on pottery that has been inadequately fired. When the pottery is used to eat or drink from, the residual mercury is leached into the food. It is at this time that the mercury is poisonous. Foods which are high in acidity, such as tomatoes or citric juices, are the worst.



Bingo. And don't try this at home, kiddies! You might wind up spending 8 days in the VA hospital... Don't ask how I know. Something about a teapot from Mexico... :barf:




Okay, we've beaten the mercury thing to death here. How about some more dumb ideas?


There's no end of stupid things that have been loaded into shotshells. Rusty ball bearings "to make it hurt more" is one I've heard. Same idiot liked a dull knife for the same reason. :rolleyes:



Maybe NOT so dumb is square shot. It's called "Dispersante" and the idea is to have it spread more than standard shot for use in crowd control.

Keith
September 26, 2003, 01:11 PM
Okay, we've beaten the mercury thing to death here. How about some more dumb ideas?

Please!!!!


Keith

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