[Agent7]

Hi Guys, I need some advice.

Here's what happened:

My friend and I are headed back to work after lunch, and I pull over to let my friend drive my new car (he wanted to check it out). We are on a back access road (1 mile long) to where we work. About the time I get out of the car, this guy pulls up next to us in a early 90's Cougar or T-Bird. We just think he's asking if we need help, so I tell him everything is OK and wave him on. I'm standing about at the trunk area of my car.

He gets out of the car, and moves towards me somewhat rapidly, and starts mouthing how I almost just took his front bumper off (neither my friend or I remember seeing this guy or anyone we cut-off). So I say, "look man I don't know what I did, but I'm sorry." This guy is about 6FT, 40 years old, and looks like he goes to the gym everyday. He says some more ????? and then just nails me hard in the jaw. I saw the punch coming so I backed up as he hit me, which lessened the blow. Then he starts coming towards me again like he's gonna go for another punch and he stops. Then he says he used to be a cop and he already called the cops. Then he gets in his car and drives off. Looks like I'm gonna have a big fat lip by tomorrow morning.

There was no way I could have gotten my gun in the glove box before he got to me. I was thinking about it but knew if I went for the gun, he would jump me, and then we'd be fighting to get control over a .40 cal Sig. I was standing at the trunk when he got out of his car. At that time, I thought he just wanted to help us. When I realized he was possibly going to attack me, he was 5 ft away and I was 5ft from a closed glove box with a pistol in a partially unzipped rug.

Also, A brawl rolling around on the pavement is just plain stupid. He did not knock me down, just a step backwards. If he had at come at me again, I would have done everything possible to take him out with my bare hands. You gotta remember, you just never know when someone like this will pull a knife or a gun from his pocket. I had no means of defense except my hands. It's better to defuse a situation rather than possibly get stabbed trying to be a tough guy.


As he drives away we get the plate number and call the cops. They send a cop, take a report and tell me a detective will call me and allow me to sign a assault warrant on him.


Here is my delima:

Do I take my time and go file a warrant, get jerked around by the legal system, then go to court and testify, only to have this guy on a revenge mission against me? Or do I just let my fat lip heal and forget about the whole thing. I have no loose/chipped teeth nor do I require medical attention. I only have a few cuts on my fat lip and a ruined shirt from blood stains. It's not that big of a deal. I was hit harder in junior-high in the fights I got in.

So...is it worth the aggravation in the court system and having a nut-case even more pizzed at me, to get some revenge? Opinions???

[keederdag]

It'd be hard for me not to try and square it somehow. But your probably right, there's not much point. See what the cops do. Where i'm from it's not up to you to press charges, it's up to a prosecutor. So maybe your decisions made allready. He sucker-punched you, dont feel like you have anything to be ashamed of. he's the coward, not you. If you see him again, try capstun....while he's rollin around, you get to have some fun.:D

[jims98z28]

If it were me, I would file. No question about it. If he reacts like that to a harmless situation like that, imagine what he would do to others in a worse situation.
If he used to be a cop then he knows whats coming and should have known better. But its all up to you.

[Lone_Gunman]

is it worth the aggravation in the court system and having a nut-case even more pizzed at me, to get some revenge?


Turning him over to the court system is called JUSTICE not revenge.

Yep, if you know who he is, I would turn him in. If he isnt dirt poor (and he may be considering he was driving a POS), you might even want to get a lawyer and sue him in civil court.

If you do either of these though, you may also be well advised to carry the gun on your person rather than in the glove box.

[cordex]

you may also be well advised to carry the gun on your person rather than in the glove box.
Agreed.

The biggest problem with off-body carry/car carry is that the gun is off your body. Doesn't do much good if you can't get to it.

[Rik]

You have a witness. File the assualt charge and press it. If you want to carry it further, sue the guy. He could really injure someone next time.
Rik

[Hot brass]

Turn his ??? in and watch your six:mad:

[jsalcedo]

I agree that guy needs to go through the Criminal justice system before he kills someone over something stupid.

[Agent7]

I agree to the body carry, but the problem is I work in a high-tech secure facility that does not allow weapons on the premises so I compromise. A situation like this just makes you realize that you need to have your weapon at all times to be safe. I stopped... and got out of the car to walk around to the passenger seat......and I was bascially ambushed. All I could think about was my weapon is 5 ft away and it's doing me no good.

[roscoe]

File the charges - that is what the justice system is for. And sue him for assault. Document the injury, also.

[jimpeel]

The guy is a hothead and needs to be stopped before he really hurts someone. You are that means.

He is damned lucky to be alive let alone running around looking for his next victim.

Remember: WHEN A PERSON LEAVES THE SCENE OF A CRIME THEY ARE NOT RUNNING FROM THAT CRIME BUT TO THEIR NEXT ONE!

You have the means to brand this guy for what he is, a violent perpetrator. If you get a conviction on him this time, even if it is a misdemeanor, the next time it will be a felony.

In addition, if this guy is an ex-cop, the liklihood is that he was a bad one who abused his authority under color of law; and he is still under the impression that he is immune from retribution for his abberant acts. This makes him an even greater danger to the community at large.

GO GET HIM!

[King]

By reporting him, you may also be doing him (and possibly others) a favor. He obviously feels that he can assault others with impunity and with little risk to his own well being.

Next time, he may lose his life or health in a similar situation. He may also hurt someone else even worse than in this incident.

Your actions may slow him down or teach him a lesson that he truly needs to learn.

Paybacks? Maybe. But you'll be within your rights to respond appropriately next time.

[FPrice]

I have to agree with most of the people who have responded. File charges. NOW! Ignoring the crime will reinforce in this guy that he can assault some innocent person withour fear of being held responsible for his actions.

[C.R.Sam]

You don't carry at work.
But is there any prohibition at work to keep you from wearing your holster?

If you can carry elsewhere, then just lock the gun up while at work and put the gun back in the holster as you leave work.

Don't know enough about the situation to comment re whether havin the gun on you would have been a good thing or not.

Sam

[Quartus]

Remeber when honest men would have handled this kind of thing on their own, with no thought of calling in John Law?


This is what the nanny state has done.


Yeah, under the present circumstances, file. I regret not having done so a few years back. No telling who paid for my mistake.

[Agent7]

You guys are right. I'm gonna see it thru on the assault charges and do my best to nail this guy. Thanks for the advice!

BTW, I'm in Austin as well.

[longeyes]

File charges. And buy yourself a good folding-knife in case you
need to fillet something.

[Greg L]

File charges also get some documentation (photos, bloody shirt, medical report) of the injury done to your lip.

Greg

[Waitone]

Go to a doctor and get an examination including x-rays. You may not have a problem today but down the road TMJ is a real possibility. You will then be faced with chronic pain and no way to be made whole.

Regarding the perp. He is probably and ex-cop for a reason.

I have a good friend who lives in Florida. A close family friend was murdered in front his friend's 4 year old daughter in a road rage incident. Seems the perp had a history of road rage and local LE considered the guy a wild dog. Sooner or later he would kill someone in a fit of rage.

Well, it happened.

Reporting a criminal act is not revenge it is merely common sense.

[Devonai]

In this particular case, I would hope your friend would have helped you out! What did he do when you were struck? Did he rally to your side?

It sounds like there wasn't enough time for either of you to react, but I certainly hope that had this jerk tried a second blow, your friend would have stepped in.

If this exact scenario had happened to me and one of my buddies, this guy would have ended up with his face in the dirt and his arm twisted behind his back. I don't have any male friends who aren't capable of helping me performing this kind of takedown, especially with 2 to 1 odds. I only wish that I was as capable as a couple of them as far as doing it alone!

[Mark Tyson]

If this character would assault you over such a minor thing, imagine what he does to his wife, kid, significant other, neighbors, etc. No telling what he's capable of. File charges and do what you have to do to defend yourself.

[Agent7]

My friend was in the drivers seat and did not think the guy was a nutcase. We both initially thought the guy wanted to help us because he thought we were broken down. My friend thought I had defused the situation. Then the guy punched me and got in his car and drove off. It happened really fast before either of us really knew what was going on. It's not like we were aware we had pizzed someone off and were running from them. We had no idea this guy was mad at us for something so we were not prepared. Total time from the time the guy got out of the car and back into his car was less than 40 seconds.

[Mark Tyson]

So you didn't get a license plate number or anything?

[IRONFIST]

I will not let any creature, human or otherwise, attack me without some kind of retribution. If you hit me I will do my best to teach you a lesson. If you retreat, I will find out who you are and I will pursue the matter with the police. I don't attack someone without reason and don't expect others to exhibit this kind of behavior to me. If you hurt my family all the earlier "polite" rules are suspended. Me and mine just want to be left alone and in peace. Not trying to sound "Macho" with the above statement, just common sense about how to live a life...



Michael in Sandy, Oregon/Owner of IronWolf Industries

[DMK]

File the charges and convince your friend to be a witness as well, that's what good citizens do to keep punks like this in check. Perhaps the last guy let him slide, huh?

[Bigjake]

See my sig line.... Nail the :cuss:. you did the right thing though, in my youthful stupidity, i would've purposely went outa my way to kick his as s

[Schlickenmeyer]

Keep in mind, that pressing charges amounts to citizen's arrest, and you do open yourself up to a civil lawsuit. Granted, a witness helps a lot, but any other evidence you may have is a good idea. (Your witness can be painted as biased). Just be careful, get a good lawyer, and good luck. This kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated.

-Steve Rogers
-Plus P Technology

www.PlusP.com

[Red Dane]

I hope you get the law after this guy, that kind of behaviour is simply inexcusable. I also hope that they lock him up and that you get a chance to pay him back with charges and a couple of hours with a fat jailhouse queen by the name of "Frenchy".

Good luck in your quest, you were really lucky that he didn't do something worse than just punch you. We have a lot of road-ragers down here in Alabama, my worst fear being that one of them will decide to attack me over nothing. Scary world :(

[Gary H]

Press charges.. he will hurt others.

Write everything down while it is fresh in your mind.

If you are worried about personal retribution... come up with a plan.

Increase home security.

Take defensive classes.

Get into shape.

All of these things are prudent anyway.

[Spieler]

Definitely pursue criminal charges against this guy and have your injuries documented. Whether you like it or not you are a victim of a crime and the perpetrator should be brought to justice. It isn't a personal vendetta or revenge on your part, just the proper steps that should be taken in our 'civil society'. As for bringing civil charges, that may be just tryng to have your cake and eating it too....and you might just choke on it.

[Schlickenmeyer]

Spieler, You misunderstand me. The victim can be sued. (agent 7).

[Andrew Rothman]

Keep in mind, that pressing charges amounts to citizen's arrest, and you do open yourself up to a civil lawsuit.

Nope. Not even close. Nothing alike. Only your local city/county/district attorney can file criminal charges. All you are doing is signing a complaint or making a statement.

And that's why you get legal advice from lawyers, not from web forums!

(I am not a lawyer, but I am right!)

Matt

[4570Rick]

When asking your self how to resolve an issue like this, remember:

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

You can let your lip heal and forget about it, and in a few months he will assault someone else, maybe with more tragic results.

Ask yourself...How would I feel if the fat lip were on my wife, son, or daughter?

[Lancel]

Agent7

Good thinking that you got his license number and good that you have decided to press charges.

In the small world category:
I was in a road rage incident last spring in South Dakota. It happened on the interstate when my wife and I were enroute to Sturgis prior to traveling to see my brother-in-law. I was carrying, kept cool, and called 911 (didn't have to draw weapon).

One of the two LEO's that responded not only had an off-duty job as a guard at Cor-bon where I was headed but was also a friend of my brother-in-law 300 miles away.:):)

Larry

[Schlickenmeyer]

Mpayne - I went through this 2 days ago, and the state partol and county atty. told me that it was he said / he said, and If I went ahead with a summons & complaint, that I would open myself to civil liabilty. So listen to who you will, but always check with a good attorney before doing anything like this.

[XenaduKhan]

this isn't assault only... it is assault & battery.

file charges.

[Schlickenmeyer]

Hell Yes. I did not make this clear enough earlier... Just cover yer ???. then get his tossed in jail.

[jimpeel]

Quite correct. The assault is saying you are going to hit me; and the battery is when you perform the act.

[Mike Irwin]

Seems to me that with two witnesses to the assault, and only one actor, it's no longer a "he said he said situation."

Jerk him into the system, and file a lawsuit against him for your medical bills...

You should have the jaw looked at by a competent doctor. Being hit in the jaw is not a laughing matter.

[chas_martel]

Agent,

You said you worked in a high-tech secure facility.

Do they have metal detectors and 30.06 signs posted?

[Sludge]

Well, the charges are probably the way to go. This guy needs some anger management work done on him.

Back to some of your opening statements. Even if you had a gun and he had tried a more agressive attack with a weapon, you likely wouldnt have had the time to draw given the distance involved. Remember, that a fist fight doesnt give you the right to respond with deadly force, and once you are in close contact in a struggle.. if he goes for a knife, or gun or something then your really behind the curve. Your gonna have to deny him the use of that weapon first. You may also get into a weapons retention situation.

Get some training. Remember there are lots of weapons at your disposal that are less than lethal. Some hand to hand moves, pepper spray, kubatons like the one I carry are good to have in your hand with your keys

http://web.infoave.net/~jaalexander/pics/kubaton.jpg http://web.infoave.net/~jaalexander/pics/kubaton1.jpg

Notice the pointed end. Its not sharp, but it does some real damage to the throat, ribs, etc when you hit with it and those blows take minimal force. Also the finger grooves allow you to apply the force with less chance of your grip slipping. Though its made of aluminum, it does help solidify your fist too for punching. I carry it in my hand as illustrated alot when going to or from my truck. Its at the ready and doesnt make anyone nervous. A cain or surefire light are also good to help gain some distance and time. Anyway, my point is that there are many weapons that are less than lethal that you can incorporate into your daily life. Things that bridge the gap in just the situation you were in where deadly force is not yet an option.

[deanf]

Do I take my time and go file a warrant, get jerked around by the legal system, then go to court and testify, only to have this guy on a revenge mission against me?

Do we take the time to hunt down and capture/kill the people responsible for 9-11, or do we leave them be, hoping not to stir up a hornet's nest?

[Zundfolge]

Mpayne - I went through this 2 days ago, and the state partol and county atty. told me that it was he said / he said, and If I went ahead with a summons & complaint, that I would open myself to civil liabilty. So listen to who you will, but always check with a good attorney before doing anything like this.

What "civil liability" would you open yourself up to? Unless you falsely accuse someone I can't see what civil liability you would face :confused:

Maybe one of the legal beagles out there can explain that.

[TheeBadOne]

Civil liability is only when you actually do a citizens arrest by laying your hand on someone. It does not apply to this case.

[Agent7]

I'm wondering what will happen to this guy if I sign a warrant out on him and he is found guilty? Let's assume the best case for him, in that he has a clean record, what is the normal sentence for someone with a clean record? Then I wonder, what his sentence would be if he has a history of previous violence?

Also, he works at Austin International Airport (his car had a ABIA Tagtag handing on the rear-view). Will they fire him if he recieves an assualt conviction? Should I call the Airport Security and notify them of the case number before a warrant is signed?

How long does it normally take for a dectective to call me to discuss signing out a warrant?

Thanks for all the advice guys!

[Agent7]

Regarding the question about metal detectors and a 30.06 sign...



There is a sign posted that weapons are not allowed anywhere on the premises. They do not have metal detectors but they do have random searches as you enter or leave the building. Technically, company policy states I am not even allowed to have a gun in my car (even though I have a CHL), if my car is on company property. I have a really good job that pays very well. The last thing I would do is jepordize my job by violating company weapon policys.

[feedthehogs]

Most simple assault cases unfortunately are plea-bargained down to a lesser charge with maybe a fine or community service.

Even with a long rap sheet, DA's don't want to waste their time with these types of complaints.

You should go ahead with the complaint, but be prepared to be disappointed with the results. Just the fact of life.

If you want to get some satisfaction, let the case proceed then pursue in a civil court for personal injury damages.

It will however cost you for an attorney. And even if you get a judgment, in no way will it guarantee you payment from the defendant.

Check on the guys’ financial status to see if he has any money and also check on community property laws in your state. If you do get a judgment worth going after and he is married and most everything is in both names you have little chance of collecting.


A little research can save you lots of wasted time and money.

IF he does get some type of conviction but has no assets for a monetary compensation and has a sensitive job, a notification to his employer may get him fired.

All this may get him angry, but stand up to the a** and let him know you aren't afraid of his punk butt.

The last resort involves a personal visit from Moose and Rocco.

While not exactly legal, you didn't start this to begin with.

[Agent7]

I found out who the guy is:

He is 46 years old, owns 2 cars (an 86 Olds and a 92 T-Bird). He has lived in a apartment 1/4 mile off of Interstate 35 for a few years (assuming he stills lives at the place his cars are registered to, and the address on his drivers license). The area he lives is pretty scumy. I'd bet his total net worth is less than $8K.

I could care less about trying to get $8K from this guy. But what I will do is do everything I can legally and make him pay a few thousand in attorney fees to defend himself.

[feedthehogs]

Unless you pursue your complaint in a civil court, judging by what you dug up he will be defended by your tax dollars in a crimminal court by a public defender and the only money he will have to pay will be a small fine and court costs.

[BowStreetRunner]

take it to him agent7,
in the legal system that is

[spartacus2002]

Regarding pursuing a criminal case against him: Gee, do you think this is the first or last time this hothead has punched somebody? At least get him arrested or convicted; even if it is plead down, it will (a) build a rap sheet on him for the next time he's in front of a judge, and (b) might help get him fired, depending on his job. Plus, a judge might not be very lenient with an ex-cop walking around hitting folks. Wouldn't it be icing-on-the-cake if you found out how many citizen complaints he had against him as a cop and that he's an ex-cop because he got fired for abuse?

Regarding pursuing a civil case against him: Many personal injury attorneys will work for a contingency fee, meaning you only pay costs of filing, photocopying, etc. They will only bill you for hours worked on the case if they win. Additionally, he might have some form of renter's insurance that will pay for his liability in a case like this.

[feedthehogs]

Spartacus2002,
There are attorneys that work on a contingency basis but unless you find one out of law school trying to build a practice, you won't get one working for a couple thousand dollar settlement in an assault case.

Not trying to discourage, but unless anyone has been involved with the legal system directly, very few times does justice ever really prevail.

More often than not it boils down to a compromise of the legal system.

[BamBam]

Agent,
I just want to let you know not to feel like you did something wrong or that you could have handled it much better. The guy sucker-punched you and took off. If you'd had your pistol, your first opportunity for a shot would have been into his back....not a defensive move.

I wonder if you could get a restraining order against this thug while this plays out?

Good luck,
BamBam

[bogie]

Charge him and testify. You may be saving someone else's life.

Also check out a doctor. Make sure you don't have any jaw or neck problems. If you do, sue the sob.

[SaintofKillers]

had something similar happen to my wife and I although I wasnt assaulted, a guy in a Saturn comes behind me on the hwy and starts driving like a maniac, guess I wasnt driving fast enough, he pulls next me flashes a badge and tells me to pull over, I dont see a uniform or agumball machine on the roof so I kindly tell him @$#% you and keep driving he continues his charade and finally drives off doing the same to others as he goes, my wife calls Ill. State Police, explain situation was told, "what do you want us to do about it?" explaing guy maybe a nutball and so on was told "well maybe he is a police officer" I said that I doubted it, asked if I wanted ti file complaint said Yes, was put on hold for 20 mins before I hung up. I have lost a lot of respect for law enforcement in the respect that they usually wont do anything until a serious crime has already been commited, how did Guliani clean up New York? by busting scum for small things before they do worse. Next time I will tell the police 'he told me he has a gun' and see what kind of response I get. Yes I was told by several on this forum that i should pursue the complaint but after the attitude I got it didnt seem worth it. I often think that this guy will end up getting himself killed acting in this manner, but I think that you are doing the right thing just wanted to show a different point of view.

[Agent7]

It turns out the guy has lived in Texas (or had a Texas DL) since 93 and his criminal record in Texas is clean (A PI friend ran it for me). I guess the APD will run a federal check when they see me about the warrant.

I know the drill on this. I had been thru a situation with a crazy neighbor about 10 years ago. I finally hired a PI and found out that he had numerous convictions for violent behavior and drug use for a 30 year span. This guy would beat his wife and kids up every 2 weeks and nothing would ever happen to him. He even threw his 17 year old daughter out of a 2nd story window. And still the courts would not prosecute because the family would not testify against him. There is really no justice. It's only a facade that the naive believe exists. Anyone that knows the real justice system, knows there is no justice.

[Lancel]

:confused:

A crime was committed, blood was spilled, property (shirt) damaged.
The guy is a tragedy waiting to happen.
Report it before he does worse.

Thanks,
Larry

[Carlos Cabeza]

YO MOOSE, ROCCO............................BREAK THIS GUY'S LEGS !:evil: J/K ;) Sorry. This kind of thing should not go unpunished. If we all got mad every time someone cut us off on the road, It would be SRO in the courthouse every day. That guy needs to learn some self control and a little common sense.

[grampster]

A word about your .40 being in the glove box....In this case, probably it was a good thing because I wonder if you would have brandished the firearm or worse? Especially since he sucker punched you. I've read this entire thread and no one has really brought up the idea that, yes, firearms are for protection and defense (among other things) but in a hot situation that is not necessarily a mortal one, a firearm might escalate the situation. Hot powder needs cool heads.

You mention that you were thinking that the pistol was not on your person while the assault occured. Perhaps being preoccupied with thinking about the weapon you didn't have, you allowed yourself to let down your guard? That is perhaps a good reason for not separating yourself from your weapon in the first place. But on the other hand, if you had been carrying it, what would you have done with it under the same circumstances?

The lesson here is more about the gun than the battery. We saw what happened when it was in the car. What difference would it have made if you had had it on your hip? If any?

It appears the perp, after he hit you once, had second thoughts about continuing the assault for some reason and left. But if you had pulled your .40, what then?

No criticism here......just food for thought for all of us.

grampster

[atk]

Sorry if this was mentioned before - I started skimming part way through :)

You mentioned that you work at a secure facility, and you were coming back from lunch, right? That means you were in your parking lot, right? Does your company have video cameras looking at the parking lot? If so, yopu may have evidence against the guy...

[Mark Tyson]

Tricky situation - can you use deadly force or the threat of deadly force to stop an unarmed assailant? If the perpetrator is disproportionately larger and stronger than the victim in this case, then I think Agent7 could have made a case for self-defense in the event that he used his gun. Let's say the victim is sucker-punched and falls to the ground and the bad guy starts advancing again. I would say that you are justified to draw a weapon and command the attacker to stop. That would probably end the incident right then and there. If he keeps coming, it would seem justifiable to shoot. Yes you have a duty to retreat in some places; this was addressed on another thread. But if you've been attacked, injured, and knocked to the ground I don't see how you can retreat. I'm sure you would not be justified in shooting him outright just for hitting you, but I think you would be justified in using your weapon to prevent further injury.

What does the state expect you to do: drop your weapon and engage in hand to hand combat? Allow yourself to be pummeled? You're defending yourself for crying out loud! Of course it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the local DA and a jury of your peers think.

Tactically, there's a problem of how to engage a big, strong assailant at extreme close range or when knocked to the ground. Police have number of training methods to use, I guess we'll save that discussion for the strategies and tactics forum.

This guy sounds like a bully, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was kicked off the force for abusing his power.

[Lone_Gunman]

Grampster,

I was watching an NRA sponsored program over the weekend, and they made the statement than 98% of all self defense uses of a handgun involve only a display of the gun.

After an unprovoked punch is thrown by someone acting crazy who claims to be an "ex cop" (and would therefore perhaps have some fighting skill), I dont think you could fault someone for pulling the gun. Personally I would have been afraid for my life if I had been in that situation.

[Thumper]

I'm trying my best to stay out of this one; everytime I try to say empty hand techniques are important, I get jumped all over.

Gramps is right.

I've been in two physical altercations since I started carrying a gun 24/7 in '91. Both were sucker punches...actually, one was a sucker club from behind. I'm glad I chose not to draw or shoot either time.

On the second occasion, I actually had to get the responding officer to dig my glock out of it's IWB before I let the jack*** who clubbed me get up.

Not trying to be macho. If I'da shot in either occasion, I probably eventually would've gotten off, but it would've cost me a fortune.

Shouldn't even mention it, but it's pretty dadgum satisfying to physically hurt those who are trying to hurt you.

Agent, I have no idea how this thing went down. Sounds like a good thing that you're pursuing it. Don't let "what I shoulda done" keep you up at night. The guy was way outta control and I hope he goes to jail.

At the same time, I still contend that there is such a thing as a simple fist fight. A gun or knife shouldn't be the only tool at your disposal.

My personal rule is that I won't draw until I'm in fear for my life or the life of another. My rule...doesn't have to be yours. This situation doesn't fit the bill for me.

Only my opinion, no flames please...Cut or shoot whoever you like.

Lone_Gunman, this is probably the only time I've ever disagreed with something you said.

[Sergeant Bob]

Agent7 Should I call the Airport Security and notify them of the case number before a warrant is signed?

Just a thought, might you setting yourself up for some sort of liability if you were to do this before he is found guilty or a warrant is signed out? Of course you know he is guilty, but is not yet, in the eyes of the law.

[Agent7]

Lot's of great info...thanks!!

Let's examine this situation. The guy was originally thought to be asking if we needed help (Texans do this all the time when you're on the side of the road). Then he gets out of his car and comes towards me (just thought maybe he wanted to chat about my new car or ask directions). I was shocked when he became aggressive in his advance (at about 10-15ft). I was even more shocked when he punched me. What if he had continued to attack and punched again, and knocked me to the ground, and then decided he wanted to kick me to the point that I was in critical condition with permanent injuries? My point is you just never know how far someone like this will go, so it's better to stop it before it ever gets to the point of a blow being thrown.

If I had had the gun within reach, I would have grabbed it as soon as I saw the guy coming at me in an aggressive manner. I would have initially held the gun at my side in plain view and instructed him to stop. If he stopped, I would tell him to get back in his car and leave. I would then call the cops and inform them of what happened. If he did not stop, I would have raised the gun and ordered him to cease his advance. If he did not stop after that, I would have fired until he did stop. I would then call the cops and tell them I just fired in self defense and tell them what I'm wearing and what I look like.

If I had the gun on me and he sucker-punched me without any warning, I would pull the gun and order him to stand back and cease his advance. If he stopped I would call 911 and hold him at gun-point until the cops arrived. If he came at me again, I would shoot him. Then call the cops...

Just so you guys know, I have extensive firearms training but I am not at all a good fist fighter. The last thing I ever want to happen is to be rolling around on the pavement and throwing blows. There are no winners in these fights...only the guy that has the lesser injuries and more teeth.

[Thumper]

Agent7, no need to defend yourself. I'm not second guessing you. You were there.

I'm merely stating my own personal outlook on these things. That being said, I don't think I'm alone.

I'd hate to think that the anti CCW folks are right and that every physical altercation will deteriorate into a shooting.

I will not draw unless life is in danger. (Property, for me, is situational...I can see that, too.)

If you felt your life was in danger, then that's your business.

(Hindsight being 20/20, we know it was your lip and not your life, but you had no way of knowing that.)

[grampster]

LG,

I am aware of the stats and agree that the threat of overwhelming force is a good thing. But this thread just got me thinking, again, about the responsibility that bearing arms lays on one. I think, today, if one goes about armed one needs to be properly practiced, and thoughtful about situations and surroundings. Trouble can come from many directions and without warning, as in the situation this thread describes. Agent 7 thought the guy was going to offer help and he winds up on his keaster.

We are a pretty bloodthirsty lot on THR, at least in print. (chuckle)
But it always better to back away, if possible. Self defense always starts with common sense. If all else fails, then go for COM till he drops.

:D

PS I always like it when Thumper agrees with me. I just wish he would tell me where I can get Shiner Bock in Michigan..heh

[keederdag]

Agent 7, I gotta agree with Thumper, I am not a Lawyer, but I do have a degree in Criminal Justice. I live in AZ; mebe things are different in TX. but shooting an unarmed man (If you are male, and reasonable physically sound) just doesnt fly in court. Here, you are pretty much gonna do some time. Jurors tend to think men can take care of themselves, which is why female cops can get away with Bad-shoots more than male cop's. The prosecuitor, in the hypathetical case, would argue that this was only a case of mutual combat, until you decided to pull a gun. I have several friends that are County D.A.'s, these guy's would prosicute in a case like this. I'm glad, in this situation, you were unarmed. It doesnt sound like you could have done much really. I've studied martial arts/boxing/kickboxing for about 12 years, and I would have reacted no differently. There is no way you could have predicted this guy sucker-punching you. I doubt you do/want to live your life with the mentality that everyone is a potential threat, that you may have to shoot. That's no way to live. Do what you can with the law; and if you feel you need to square it, wait till he wont see you commin.:D

[Agent7]

It's cool guys. I really appreciate all the feedback. I was not defending myself, only stating how I would handle a situation.

I am 45 years old and have had 2 occasions in my life to which I drew my weapon on an aggressive person. In one case, simply showing the weapon at my side gave the guy reason to just turn and run. In the second case, I held the weapon at my side and instructed him to leave. He kept coming and I pointed the cocked 1911 (safety off) at his head at about 6ft. He froze and looked at me w/ incredible hostility for what seemed like 2 minutes (was probably about 30 seconds). I thought for sure I was going to have to shoot him. I had the slack in the trigger taken up and the gun pointed at his head. After what seemed like an eternity, he turned and walked away. These 2 instances happened when I was in my twenties. I have been hassle free until yesterday.

[Agent7]

I guess I should add that I was diagnosed about 3 years ago with a tumor in my chest that is 4"x9" long. It's benign and sits squarely in between my 2 lungs and next to my heart. It stopped growing so I decided to leave it and not undergo open heart surgery to have it removed. The negative to leaving it in, is I cannot handle intensive physical activity for more than just a few seconds due to the pressure of the tumor on my heart. If I were to get into a fist-fight, I would be out of breath and gasping in a matter of seconds. I feel my only option for defense is a firearm.

[keederdag]

Agent 7, were these guy's armed? I have pulled mine twice, on guy's I thought were armed ( wasnt positive though). Only once in a "both of us armed" situation. I have never had to pull on an unarmed person, but I have been sucker-punched quite a few times; I dont look back and wish I had a gun though, I just wish I had reacted faster.:)

[keederdag]

Sorry, didnt see the Med-Prob before I posted reply. Maybe you should think about cap-stun, A.S.P. makes a really cool kubo-baton/pepper-spray device that fit's on a keyring. It's also aluminum and very light weight. The pepper foam is great stuff too, but Ive only seen it in larger containers. Trust me, Ive been sprayed, he wont want any after you dose him. A couple good kicks to the scroat, and you back to happy motorin. He wont have your licence plate....guy's like this are only thinkin really short term.:D

[Agent7]

The 1st guy was the crazy neighbor that beat his family that I mentioned earlier. He was getting aggressive on the road I jogged on near our houses, and was threatening to kick my azz. Simply pulling my Airweight .38 Bodyguard from the CD case I worn around my waste and holding it at my side, was all it took to convince him to leave.

2nd guy was armed. He had a .25 auto in his waste band. I could see it thru his t-shirt. He was drunk and had sucker-punched another guy in the bar. He came over to me and smacked my arm as it lay on the bar. That's when I drew and backed up about 10 ft.

[Thumper]

I hear ya...and you're right. Again, you know your situation a lot better than I do.

I got slammed by quite a few folks awhile back for advocating empty hand techniques over gunplay (when possible) and Runt read me the Riot Act. :D

Everybody's situation is different. I respect the way you handled it.

[dave5339]

Agent7,

Your work situation sounds a lot like mine.

I'd suggest getting some Fox OC and carrying it weak side concealed. Your employer doesn't need to know about it as it's not a firearm/weapon.

Had you had the Fox handy and your attacker had continued to attack you would have had a less than lethal alternative to stop the attack.

Given your medical condition you might want to look at a good cane, a Cold Steel City Stick comes to mind. A good whack with that would dissuade most attackers.

Also, good job on pressing charges. This sounds like a scumbag that needs to be gotten off the streets.

Semper Fi

[keederdag]

yea, definitly good job on the charges, I think you have made sound decisions all they way through. In Az, our justification law is based on the premise of what a "reasonable Person" would do. All of your actions sound reasonable to me. Really think about the O.C. though, it's good stuff, and handy for dog's too, if your still jogging.:D

[Blain]

The question is, do you think if you had the gun you would have shot him isntead? Would that have made you a criminal instead? What would a jury think?

[keederdag]

I'm gonna say they wouldnt have any pity, I know this sucks, but that's what Ive seen happen so far. You'd do some time for it.:confused:

[Mark Tyson]

OC can be formidable stuff, but there's guys out there who can soak it up without any ill effects. Remember, in some places cops are sprayed with OC to familiarize themselves with it. They then have to execute an arrest while it's still active. Impact weapons are good too, but I've seen so many guys take serious punishment from sticks and fists and the like that I am not really a fan of them. Even if you're in good shape, there's only so much you can do. Remember, a lot of thugs lift weights every day in prison and train on martial arts, for years while doing time.

I'm not disparaging martial arts and the utility of non-firearm weapons. All these things are necessary for a well rounded self defense system. However, I think mastering fighting with empty hands, improvised weapons or impact weapons takes a lot of time an dedication that many people may not have.

Just my 2 cents.

[keederdag]

Yea, I follow, but I'd like too see the good guy's avoid having to get soap on the roap in a family care package. I met a guy who had conditioned himself to take O.C. like mento's. This was not your average guy though! Out here cop's get sprayed once at the accademy, and Ive never met one that wanted anything but HEEEEEEELLLLP after. I know I didn't. I have been dosed by C.S., Mace, and Capstun 15%. Capstun is by far the worse one. I think I'd rather take a shot in the jewells, since Ive had that often enough I use it as a point of reference, on the uncomfortability scale. Capstuns Worse. At leste it's immeadiate effects:D

[spartacus2002]

If Agent7 had been beaten to a bloody pulp in front of his buddy and subsequently died, would we all be talking about what a fool he was since he didn't draw and display his gun?

[Lone_Gunman]

Allow me to clarify my previous post...

First, I was operating under the assumption that you thought your life was in danger. If not, then clearly you should not mess with your gun.

If you get punched in the face, I think that declaring you are armed by showing the weapon would not be considered brandishing. That was my main point with what Grampster had said. It would not necessarily mean I would draw the gun, nor shoot, unless further attack was carried out against me.

In the end, I think you sort of have to be there to make a good choice on how exactly to react.

Underestimating the power of the fist of a deranged man could be a lethal mistake.

[spartacus2002]

Great points brought out by all.

However, it saddens me that our society has gotten to the point where we have these how-many-angels-can-dance-etc. discussions over whether a guy could/should draw and point a pistol and say "back off" to a stranger who has driven up, gotten out of a car, and started beating him.

I always wonder if the frequency of these beatings would decrease if people knew you could draw and brandish your weapon if you were about to get a nonlethal beating.

[standingbear]

youre lucky in a way. he could have rammed your car and then got out and continued his assault.people like this are nuts..theres no guessing how they would react.you did good now go make that report and burn the control freak.

[Lone_Gunman]

Spartacus,

No one knows whether a beating is going to be lethal or not til its too late.

If I had a crystal ball and could tell a beating would be nonlethal, I guess I would not declare, draw or fire my weapon, but just try to defend myself with fist and foot.

[pax]

It occurs to me that this story and the one at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40687 have a lot of similarities.

The only reason the outcomes are different is because of the intent of the perpetrators -- not because of anything the victims did or didn't do. Both victims were completely dependent upon the mercy of their attackers.

Me, I think it's a durn good idea to carry your gun all the time. You never know.

Agent7, I'm glad you came out of it ok.

pax

[Agent7]

My approach to allowing the attacker to see the gun (which did not work in this case because my I was taken by surprise) has worked for me in the past and will always be my first order of defense. I firmly believe you should never let an aggressor get close enough to attack you if you are aware he is an aggressor.

Let's review:

1. Show him you have a gun by hanging it by your side. Tell him to leave immediately or he will be shot if he advances. Call the cops and tell them what happened. Be truthful!

2. If he still advances after you show him you have a gun, point the gun at him and reiterate that you will shoot him if he does not immediately stop his aggressive advancement. If he stops, order him to vacate the area immediately. Call the cops and tell them what happened. Be truthful!


3. If he does not stop and he is less than 23 ft from you (Texas is 23 ft.), begin firing at his torso until he drops. Call the cops and tell them what happened. Be truthful! Tell them you fired in self defense and describe your clothes and appearance. Advise them as to the condition of the perp.

This is my mantra that I have lived by for 25 years.

[Lone_Gunman]

23 feet seems kind of far to be shooting an unarmed man.

[Agent7]

Pax, that story is so sobering as to what can happen if you are not prepared. I am thankful my attacker was of a more sane variant. It could have just as easily gone for the worse. I personally feel this is proof why you should always take the steps I have itemized below. Because......you just never know.

[Thumper]

For me personally, six inches seems pretty damned far to be shooting an unarmed man. Tueller drill be danged.

My view only.

YMMMV.

[gunsmith]

Drug addicts sometimes can take quite alot before the fight leaves them.
The last time I sprayed someone I had to draw my sidearm and point it at him to get him to stop advancing. As I was leaving the spray kicked in.
imho if spraying doesn't stop someone who is an obvious threat the next step is drawing the sidearm.
With the many street junkies I have sprayed I have noticed you have about 4 minutes to get away from them before they are ready to fight again.
San Francisco is a wonderfull place to experiment with pepper spray!
You will get ample opportunity to use it on weekend nights in the polk st tenderloin area and the strip club area on broadway.All you have to do is say "no I do not have any spare change" and they will want to fight
Good luck with your court case I hope you succeed.

[Agent7]

I think you have to realize if a man continues to advance on your position after he's been advised visually that you have a gun, and he has also been warned verbally that he WILL BE SHOT IF HE CONTINUES, he would had to have been intent on doing bodily harm to you if he continued. Wouldn't you think a rational person would just walk away at that point?

[Thumper]

Of course, Agent. But if I draw everytime someone comes within 23 feet of me who might be a threat, even at night, I'm gonna have a lot of holster wear. Hefty lawyer bills, too.

People get approached all the time...least I do. Must be my wit and charm.

:D

If I had some kind of physical impairment, my view might change on all this. Again, YMMMV.

[Agent7]

"Of course, Agent. But if I draw everytime someone comes within 23 feet of me who might be a threat, even at night, I'm gonna have a lot of holster wear. Hefty lawyer bills, too."

"People get approached all the time...least I do. Must be my wit and charm."



Thumper, Of course you don't draw on EVERYONE that comes within 23 ft of you.

This goes without saying, you have to determine when someone poses a serious threat. Typically, a guy coming at you rapidly and yelling he is gonna kick your azz, or saying he's gonna kill you would be considered a serious threat. Someone walking past you on the sidewalk, smiling as they push a baby carriage, and eating ice-cream... would not be considered a serious threat. :)

[Ian Sean]

While I have little to add to the shoulda, woulda, coulda's, I am curious on the eventual outcome, please keep us posted. I do agree with those that have stated that this guy needs to be arrested and have a record NOW! I believe next time this guy will really cross the line.

[keederdag]

I was headed to the range, about 1 month ago, and our brillaint local DOT, changed some traffic control sighns in a construction area where I live. Anyhow I, not paying attention, pulled out into traffic and stoped. I was thinkin things were still like the had been for about 6 months. Stupid assumption I know! Anyhow There wasnt much traffic, just some road equipt., but this guy comes whippin around said on-coming backhoe at about 65mph in a 25mph zone, Right at me. I didnt figure out what was wrong till the last minut, and got out of his way. In the rearveiw, I see him pull off the side of the road, grab what looked like a mag-lite and start runnin across 3 lanes after my truck. Being a inbred/hillbilly type I didnt like this, so I stopped. He's screamin #$#@! you, and this and that, and advancing on me. Now I have a yugo 48 mauser and a 91 nagant rifle on the seat. It crossed my mind..... I told him that was a good way to get shot and drove off. Yea, I coulda pop'ed him....and gone to court, and maybe prison. Or I coulda pulled one out and scared him stiff, and gone to court and maybe prison. But I did the right thing (for a Change) and left. People who know me, My wife, friends, familiy, say that I'm a lot more dangerouse/ short fused when I dont have a gun. I admit, I like to fight. I have kickboxed competitivly for fun. Been bruised, stitched, patched, casted ect. But I will go to great leanghts not to shoot anybody. This guy was half my size and puny. If the gun's werent there I may have stuck around. I have done worse before (poor judgment, due to selective inbreeding). Anyhow my .02. Guns are a last resort, to defend a life.... BIG PERIOD, at leaste in my book.:)