Hollow points or Ball?


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MrIzhevsk
December 15, 2008, 01:35 AM
Which is better for carry purposes in a 1911? Would you prefer to have an 8 round magazine full of Hydrashock or standard ball ammunition? The reason I ask is because I have read that hollow points don't always feed as well as a FMJ ball .45 acp round.

anybody?


Thanks,
Stuart

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ConstantineJ9
December 15, 2008, 03:23 AM
Well, I dont know if this helps but I keep 230 grain FMJ rounds in my Hi Point JHP45. I dont know if it's true but I have heard 230 45acp rarely over penetrates and that's with FMJ ammo. And, it will feed better in just about anything.

psyopspec
December 15, 2008, 03:43 AM
I have read that hollow points don't always feed as well as a FMJ ball .45 acp round.

How do those HPs perform with the gun in question? The answer to that matters a whole lot more than the opining of a gun rag/interweb forum author.

For me, if the HP's don't feed, I'd try to ID the problem and remedy it or get rid of the gun and find something more reliable with modern JHP ammunition.

ConstantineJ9
December 15, 2008, 03:48 AM
+1 psyopspec

david_the_greek
December 15, 2008, 09:27 AM
obviously in a lower caliber hollow points are vital. Are the that important in the 45? Well, thats a good question. I'm going to say its ok to use FMJ if you can't afford (or don't want) to use hollow points. How do I come to this conclusion.... EVERY FRUITING 9MM VS 45 DEBATE! Gosh darn it, every time this happens someone brings up how the 1911 served through X number wars and is a 'one shot stopper'. lol. Well, ok my references might not be the greatest, but it is a heavy bullet and it'll do some damage. Hollow points probably aren't a bad thing, I just can barely afford FMJ's!

JImbothefiveth
December 15, 2008, 09:37 AM
.45 ACP FMJ has okay stopping power, but it's less than that of 9mm hollowpoints. That said, some testing should be done of the hollowpoints, to make sure they get at least 12 inches of penetration in ballistics gelatin. Try and find some tests done from the barrel length of the pistol ou will carry. As an FBI agent put it "too little penetration will get you killed".

Deanimator
December 15, 2008, 09:52 AM
If your gun won't feed hollowpoints, get that fixed or switch guns.

Overpenetration is real, and even if you're no-billed for a through and through that hits an innocent, you're GOING to get sued, and LOSE.

BBQLS1
December 15, 2008, 09:59 AM
JHP no contest. Find some that reliably feed the round you plan on using, make sure you have a good recoil spring, and use good magazines. There are lots of options available, you probably want one with a ball ammo profile. Speer Gold Dot 230 grain is a good choice.

Spend a little money and run quite a few through it. Some will say "1000 rounds of your carry ammo!" I wish I had those budgets. I have put a couple hundred (of what I carried) through mine before I carried it; there were no malfunctions.

Testing other ammo, the Hornady +P stuff which has a conical bullet opposed to the ball profile. Some rounds would catch on the feed ramp (not the gap, the hollow point would catch in the middle of the ramp itself). As soon as I used ball profile round, no issues what so ever.

Lone_Gunman
December 15, 2008, 10:03 AM
I believe Clint Smith advises the use of FMJ ammo for maximum reliability. The idea is that even if your gun feeds JHPs reliably, if it fails one time in a million due to hollowpoints, it will probably do so when you need it most. Murphy's law.

Shot placement is more important than hollowpoints.

LIQUID SNAKE
December 15, 2008, 10:25 AM
It's to your preference. I switched to a .40 G22 from my old Springfield Armour 1911A1 Three or four years or so ago. However now like then I switch between ball and hollow points freely. I used to carry with 230gr Hydra shock both on duty and off. and eventually began to alternate. I personally could not care less about over penetration since I focus on being aware of my environment like the backstops that are or are not present. FMJ is better in a single stack 1911 because of reliability. FMJ don't have much difference than the overpriced HP ammo in that they both slap home hard and drop living things dead like the plague. Especially 45acp and 40sw. I say slap because that is what it looks and sounds like when the round hits home on someone. "SLAP". 40sw FMJ blows just as big a chunk from the entrance wound as the exit. Hollow points of any make are far more lethal than FMJ and make far more vicious wounds. I carry FMJ because I want maximum penetration. I am willing to trade off energy dispersal and wound coefficient for max penetration. Some people are not, especially if your job mandates the use of hollow points.

psyopspec
December 15, 2008, 10:52 AM
I personally could not care less about over penetration

You will once the prosecutor gets ahold of that statement. ;)

The Foo
December 15, 2008, 11:05 AM
If your firearm doesn't feed it, then find a new one that will. Most modern JHP ammunition is made differently today than before, so feed issues are almost irrelevant.

Bubba613
December 15, 2008, 11:08 AM
In .25acp it doesn't matter. Use ball ammo.
In .45acp it doesn't matter. Use ball ammo.
In 9mm and .38 it matters very much. Use hollow point.

As for the "one in a million" bulloney. One in a million can apply to every aspect of the gun.

Deanimator
December 15, 2008, 11:27 AM
I personally could not care less about over penetration since I focus on being aware of my environment like the backstops that are or are not present.
1. So then you would let somebody shoot you rather than take an immediately needed shot where you weren't sure of your backstop?

2. How do you CHOOSE a "backstop"? Is it construction? How about distance? How much distance is permissible between your assailant and the "backstop"? Will you only shoot somebody who's trying to murder you if they're standing 6" in front of a 5'x5' plate of cold rolled homogenous armor? Or will you shoot somebody who's far enough from the "backstop" that somebody could walk between it and your attacker? What happens if somebody randomly walks between your assailant and the "backstop"? How do you plan to correlate all of these factors AND shoot your assailant in enough time to prevent yourself from being maimed or killed by him?

Call me lazy or eccentric, but I find buying a box of 200gr. Hornady TAP JHP a lot simpler to manage.

Fenris
December 15, 2008, 11:49 AM
Didn't one of those FBI studies conclude that since the vast majority of rounds fired in gun fights are complete misses, it makes little sense to be excessively concerned about those few bullets that actually hit and may over penetrate. Also that exit hole through skin significantly slows down bullet.

I am not stating these as my opinions. I have not come to any conclusion. I have three small children at home so I am concerned about them being hit by any round, stray or over-penetrated, my round or the BG's.

Bubba613
December 15, 2008, 12:05 PM
The theory is "big sky, little bullet." Most gunfights occur when few people are around anyway.
I think the overpenetration issue has been blown out of proportion.

LIQUID SNAKE
December 15, 2008, 12:23 PM
I knew a couple people would respond to the backdrop thing. If I am threatened I will take the shot period. Also 'backdrop' does not only apply to solid objects. It could apply to their being absolutely nothing behind the enemy at all. No enemy's no not enemy's, just landscape. It is a abstract concept Take it as you will. I just meant to be aware of your surroundings.

The Bushmaster
December 15, 2008, 01:21 PM
Of the three 1911 style handguns (Colt, Kimber and Firestar) that I have. None have a problem with Hornady HP/XTP ammunition. And if they did have a problem with hollow points I would either repair or have them repaired...

mbt2001
December 15, 2008, 01:32 PM
Well, I "stockpile" FMJ's for SHTF type of event. I have a few boxes of JHP and premium HP's for SD.

HP's can fail to expand and over pentrate as well. As callous as this is, if I were involved in a shooting and had a through and through that then killed an innocent, I would argue that it was an act of God. I mean, a lot of stars have to align to make that possible.

Shoot what your guns feed best. The Army uses FMJ's and cops use HP's, either way your lawyer should be able to make a defense out of that SUPPOSING that is that you actually have that happen. I would be more concerned about not missing the target than I would be about having a round fired that went through the perp and killed someone else.

BBQLS1
December 15, 2008, 01:40 PM
Of the three 1911 style handguns (Colt, Kimber and Firestar) that I have. None have a problem with Hornady HP/XTP ammunition. And if they did have a problem with hollow points I would either repair or have them repaired...

My gun fires everything else fine. Using SA, Tripp, Wilson ETM mags the lower tip of the Hornady catches on the ramp before it gets to the gap. You could tap the slide and it would go into battery. I imagine a good recoil spring could/wood fix the problem, but it only happens with that ammo.

Deanimator
December 15, 2008, 04:04 PM
I knew a couple people would respond to the backdrop thing.
I believe that the term you used was "backSTOP", NOT "backdrop". They mean different things.

As commonly understood, a "backdrop" is merely something in the background, as in a "backdrop" on a theater stage. This could be anything from a blanket on a clothesline to the clothesline by itself, to a crowd of bystanders.

A "backSTOP" on the other hand, is commonly understood to be something which STOPS or redirects a projectile, as in an inclined metal plate, a metal "snail shell" bullet trap, an earthen bank, or captive tire crumb into which bullets are fired, safely containing the projectile and any fragments thereof.

If I miss my intended target, it doesn't matter what kind of projectile I use. On the other hand, if I hit my intended target and it passes completely through that target, that makes a BIG difference. I cannot GUARANTEE that the .45 200gr. Hornady TAP JHPs, 9mm 147gr. Winchester White Box JHPs or .38 158gr. Federal LSWC-HPs that I carry in my handguns won't pass completely through an assailant and hit an innocent. It is beyond reason to deny that they LESSEN that possibility measureably.

As hard a I try, I can't think of a SINGLE plausible negative factor of using proper expanding self-defense ammunition that can even come close to outweighing the benefit of keeping my bullet(s) inside of an assailant.

moooose102
December 15, 2008, 05:12 PM
for carry, every last one of my 13 rounds are hollow points. of course i have shot my pistol enough to KNOW that they feed just as well as ball ammo. hp's in general tranfer more energy to whatever you are shooting. and hopefully, that will equate into faster stops. i figure it this way, if it is what the cops are using, it is what i am using.

tblt
December 15, 2008, 05:40 PM
hallow point and FMJ mix

ConstantineJ9
December 15, 2008, 06:14 PM
Good idea

jjohnson
December 15, 2008, 07:01 PM
Well, I used to think just ball ammo to be sure they'd feed. Hollowpoints have come a long way since then.

I don't feel undergunned with ball ammo in a .45. There are plenty of merits to hollow point ammo, but if you're okay with shooting enough hollow point ammo at the range to make sure it'll be reliable as CCW, good for you.

If you want to hedge your bet, load ONE hollowpoint in the chamber and carry cocked and locked over some ball ammo.

Me - I have been shooting Silvertip Winchester for over 20 years now, and haven't ever had a failure with it, so I carry it. I also shoot it often enough to make sure my 'carry load' is fresh. Stick with whatever makes you feel safe.

Stirling XD
December 15, 2008, 07:05 PM
I had a friend that is former chief of police where I grew up. His gun fired both type ammo equally well. He was never sure what situation he might be shooting in, so he loaded both in his magazine. HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, etc...

crushbup
December 15, 2008, 07:42 PM
Try hollowpoints in your 1911 and see how they work. Try several brands, a box of each. In terms of reliability, were any flawless through that box? If so, that group moves to the next round. Next, check the penetration/expansion of the so-far flawless rounds: look for at least 12 inches of penetration and as much expansion as possible. The one you pick you should buy a case of and shoot at least 200 straight flawless rounds through your carry gun. Then you can accept it as "reliable."
I would recommend that you pick up some Federal HST instead of Hydra-Shoks. HST performs much, much better than the older design-but this is where the testing comes in: HST has a HUGE hollow point; it may hang up on some chambers, so you want to do a big function test before carrying it.

If your gun refuses to feed any hollowpoints, either go and get your gun repaired (polished feed ramp, etc.) or buy a CZ75 and a case of 9mm HST.

sniper5
December 16, 2008, 11:13 AM
If you're having trouble with the choice, they do make expanding FMJ rounds for .45 and 9mm.

NG VI
December 16, 2008, 11:22 AM
I keep 230 grain FMJ rounds in my Hi Point JHP45.

You keep FMJ in your JHP? How ironic!

I would say go JHP every time. Except for the gimmicky ammo, every JHP I can think of makes the 12" minimum in .45 ACP, so I would say try them out, make sure your pistol functions with them, if not, make it work, no modern carry/defense gun should have any troubles with run-of-the-mill JHP bullets. If it doesn't, I have a hard time believing the problem lies with the bullets. Also, some of the JHPs have a great feed profile not much different at all than FMJ, like the Golden Saber. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and regardless of myth, JHP in 9mm and up will always be better than FMJ with certain very specific exemptions like New Jersey.

Bill B.
December 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
I believe Clint Smith advises the use of FMJ ammo for maximum reliability

I read this several years ago and I think this was about the same exact thing Jeff Cooper said also. They have shot more 45 ACP between the 2 of them than most likely the average 100 members of this forum. We can take something from their experience and factor in our own. Reliablity is everything in an auto. 230 FMJ in the brand of my choice is all I even buy.

punkndisorderly
December 16, 2008, 12:27 PM
The only time I might consider anything other than good, name brand hollowpoints would be if I carried a .45 in a place where extremely cold weather was common. My reasoning is that underpenetration may be a concern with heavily clothed assailants, especially with a short barrel .45. The .45 isn't a high velocity round to begin with, and with a short barrel your giving up still more velocity. I would be interested in whether Clint Smith and Cooper would still recommend 230gr ball now. Hollowpoint ammo has come a long way in the past 10-15 years.

That said, whatever you choose to carry, run at least enough of that loading to be fairly certain that it will function in your pistol. Generally, before I adopt a carry gun, I pick up a few boxes of different defenseive hollowpoints that have a good reputation. Run them through to check for function, accuracy, whether they shoot close to point of aim, etc. Then I buy a few hundered rounds of whichever I like best and run 200 or so through it to be sure it functions 100%. The remaining 100, I use for carry purposes and stash the rest. Every few months, I run through the rounds I've been carrying and reload with some from the stash. I wound be especially sure to do so if a small frame 1911 was my chosen carry piece as they have a history of being picky about hollowpoints (though the newer ones are much more HP friendly).

I also fire my carry gun at least once a month, and usually every week. I'm more likely to notice a problem at the range that way, rather then when I actually need it. I'm also more likely to notice potential problems when I'm cleaning it.

That's the main reason I really shy way from rounds like Glaser. I can't rationalize the expense of function testing them.

pps
December 16, 2008, 12:49 PM
Go with the one that feeds more reliably. If they are equally reliable then opt for the hollow points.

Ken Rainey
December 16, 2008, 09:34 PM
That is strange since it's always worked before and now it gives problems....they could've had out of spec cases or OALs or bad powder mix ??? Anyway, good that you found it during practice! This kinda thing makes you want to take a set of calipers and check your carry ammo or cycle it thru the pistol (using utmost caution)...especially if it came out of a box that you haven't fired out of yet! I'd definetly stick to the WWB FMJs that you KNOW will work in that pistol until you nail down the cause or have time to run some other brand of defense ammo thru it to replace the Speer...:scrutiny:

Ruggles
December 16, 2008, 11:32 PM
"I believe Clint Smith advises the use of FMJ ammo for maximum reliability
I read this several years ago and I think this was about the same exact thing Jeff Cooper said also. They have shot more 45 ACP between the 2 of them than most likely the average 100 members of this forum. We can take something from their experience and factor in our own. Reliablity is everything in an auto. 230 FMJ in the brand of my choice is all I even buy.


+1

I carry 230gr FMJ in all of my 1911s. A Baer TRS Comanche, STI Lawman and Kimber Ultra Raptor 2. While these guns might feed JHPs they will never feed them as well as FMJs. I just placed an order for a Brown Kobra Carry (From Gunslingers, George has been GREAT to work BTW) and I will carry FMJ in that as well.

What is eye opening is that folks will put just 40-50 rounds (because of cost) of JHP thru their gun and deem it good to go with that ammo. I think more like 200-300 are in order.
Just my .02

Fenris
December 17, 2008, 08:12 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket) If I understand it correctly, there is a small rubber ball under a scored full copper jacket. It is supposed to feed as well as FMJ, and expand as well as JHP. In my experience things never perform as well as advertised, thus they probably don't feed well AND don't expand well.

But hope springs eternal. Anyone tried them?

Doubtless expensive too.

Note: I believe that Corbon Pow'R Ball is a similar concept except that the plastic ball is not completely covered with the copper jacket. This looks like there is the chance that the lip could get damaged and then cause a FTF. But what do I know I've never fired either one.

Finagle's Law: The perversity of the Universe tends towards a maximum.

Phydeaux642
December 17, 2008, 09:27 PM
I recently picked up a Rock Island compact 1911 and plan on running ball only through it. I figure with a 3 1/2" barrel coupled with .45acp, over penetration shouldn't be a problem. (Shot placement, shot placement...)

Ken Rainey
December 17, 2008, 10:54 PM
Yep, I'm with you on that Phydeaux642...my Kimber short stroker gets ball ammo for the same reasoning...;)

makarovnik
December 17, 2008, 11:51 PM
All my autoloaders feed hollowpoints but I usually mix in some FMJ in case I need to penetrate a car door or something.

punkndisorderly
December 18, 2008, 12:10 AM
How long were you carrying that ammo? Could have gotten, some solvent in the primers which caused the rounds to not burn 100% of the poweder (or not at all).

Another possibiility, if those loads had been chambered, unloaded, and rechambered repeatedly over a long period of time, maybe the bullets were forced deeper into the case causing higher pressure and inducing cycling problems.

All that's just a guess. I try to fire through whatever I have in my carry magazines and replace with fresh ammo every month. Probably not needed that often, but load and unload my carry gun fairly frequently.

Orange_Magnum
December 18, 2008, 12:20 AM
It's not politically correct to discriminate against criminals and scum bags. Load your magazine alternating with a light hot hollow point and a heavy NATO ball all the way down. Spread the love.

Kind of Blued
December 18, 2008, 05:19 AM
Hollowpoints. They're better in every possible aspect for self-defense except for feeding reliability. If you can't get any .45 JHPs to feed, try Remington Golden Sabers. They seem to feed in anything; even finnicky 1911s.

If those don't feed, get a different gun. Modern bullet technology is too good to ignore.

LIQUID SNAKE
December 18, 2008, 08:24 AM
I've encountered two people who actively practice keeping their mags loaded with alternating HPs and FMJs. One I think was my pistol instructor for the Casper sheriffs dept. The second is some guy that used to lived down the street from me. He also would only buy double actions because he didn't think single actions were safe but, kept the chamber clear. He would just rack the slide when the moment of truth came. Which meant that when he racked the slide to make the gun ready it would be in single action. "Dumbass". Funny the subject if Clint Smith promoting the use of hardball for reliability reasons came up. The other day, one of my room mates was complaining that his GP35 would not function with hollow points. This point came up after he asked me if I though his new Cobray machine pistol would function with HP ammo. I said probably not. Then he stated his GP35 consistently jams with HPs. Then he demonstrated it. His damn pistol would jam after the very first round. The only HP it would fire is the one already loaded directly into the chamber. Yet despite this he packs it with a whole magazine of Federal Hydra shocks. I was bewildered why he would have the thing loaded with ammo that it wouldn't feed. He said because Hydra shocks are the best. I said yea, best at jamming your damn piece! I told him HPs are no good at all if his pistol wont even feed one round. I don't know if he changed or not. He's been packing the machine pistol lately but, I don't get why he would carry a weapon loaded with ammo that it cant feed reliably because of a perception that the ammo type is "the best".....?????......

arizonaguide
December 19, 2008, 08:32 AM
Couple thoughts:

1. I have heard that the 9mm hollowpoints "mushroom" to approx. .45 caliber when they expand.
If so, then would a .45fmj be equal to a 9mm HP, anyway?

2. I have also heard that if an assailant is wearing any kind of winter/thick clothing (like a hoody?) then the HP is gonna plug up with clothing, and effectively turn into FMJ anyway.

Don't know the truth...just some points to ponder.

golden
December 19, 2008, 08:37 AM
I only carry hollow points in my personal defense pistols.

Justification is easy. My agency will only issue hollow point ammo. If I shoot ball and it overpenetrates, which is likely, how will I defend my choice? Say I am cheap!

Also, I have not seen any evidence to show any pistol ball (full metal jacket) incapacitates as well as a good hollow point.
If I can get a lightweight, easy to conceal 9m.m. with better than 1911 stopping power (using FMJ), why would I carry a full size, heavier gun?

I start off any new handgun with ball, then switch to my choice of carry load.
In a COLT Government model, I could not get it to shoot .45ACP HYDRO-SHOK with 100% reliability, so I switched to WINCHESTER 230 grain JHP. I prefer the HS as I find them to be very accurate in my guns, but reliability comes first.
If I could not get the WINCHESTER to work, I would try REMINGTON which always seems to feed in any gun.
If that failed, then I would repair or get rid of the gun.
I will not own a defense gun that is not 100% reliable. It is not worth the risk.

Hollow point is easy to defend, especially is you can link your choice to a law enforcement organization. I carry 9m.m. +P. It was issued to me when my agency allowed 9m.m.
I use 155 grain JHP in my .40 S&W that I use as a house gun. Same ammo I am issued at my agency.

In a gunfight, everything is going wrong or you would not be in a gunfight, right? Why add the risk of overpenetration?
Why risk that you will injure or kill an innocent?

To me, FMJ is only for practice.

By the way, in the military, they are purchasing the FEDERAL Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo. So they are probably not satisfied with FMJ either.

Jim

mljdeckard
December 19, 2008, 09:43 AM
The first thing is to make sure they DO feed well in your gun. But this is any gun, not just 1911s, you need to shoot at least 200 rounds failure free before you carry it.

I carry 230 gr HSTs, but I would carry hardball if I had to for some reason. Remember, there's always a chance a hollow-point won't expand. I would NOT feel as safe with 9mm hardball.

Pretty much any 1911 made these days will feed them just fine. My dad just got a SA Mil-Spec, it shoots them no problem.

makarovnik
December 19, 2008, 11:06 PM
.380 hollowpoints don't penetrate nearly as well as .380 FMJ. In this particular scenario the .380 FMJ will incapacitate better than the .380 hollowpoint.

The bullet really needs to be moving faster than about 1000 FPS before in will expand RELIABLY in human tissue. Ballistic gelatin is a little different than human soft tissue.

Now a 9mm is different. It's moving fast enough to expand reliably. Again, if you want to hit someone who is hiding behind a car door a fast moving FMJ stands a much better chance of penetrating.

The downside is a 9mm FMJ could go through the target and hit an innocent bystander.

Some people have actually been convicted because they used hollowpoints which some uninformed people think is inhumane. That is why they are banned by the Geneva convention.

If this happened to me in court I would remind the jury that police use hollowpoints. If they were that inhumane then why does law enforcement use them?

Bottom line is use what works best in your gun and what works best in that particular caliber.

Penetration is a real factor in slower moving bullets.

DarkSoldier
December 19, 2008, 11:46 PM
All good advice from those who said use what feeds 100% in your particular gun in practice.

I use Hornady 230 Gr. TAP JHP +P in my 1911s, after they feed 200 rounds of it with no problems. The cost is beastly...

Trouble is... no matter what, sooner or later, that dependable gun with that 100% problem free load, is going to malfunction.

So, my thought would be (in addition to everything else recommended by other posters), above all, practice the malfunction drills and always carry at least one spare mag.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

Blueduck
December 20, 2008, 12:02 AM
I'm not one of those ninja groupies who wants every new toy any SWAT team procures, but when 99.5% of police in the nation carry JHP instead of ball, it tends to influence my decision.

.38 Special
December 20, 2008, 02:12 AM
If you want a real eye opener you'll go hunt with hardball. Hamilton Bowen tells of shooting a gopher with hardball from a 50 AE. The gopher ran away and Bowen had to chase it down and shoot it again.

Animals in general are thoroughly unimpressed by low velocity non-expanding round nose bullets. People may be different, but I doubt it.

Blue Brick
December 20, 2008, 03:24 AM
A slow JHP.

Pat S
December 23, 2008, 11:28 PM
Hydrashok.

As others have said: If the gun won't feed hollowpoints get rid of it for a gun that will.

psyopspec
December 24, 2008, 12:38 PM
A slow JHP

Why? Speed is what makes a JHP expand.

jimmyraythomason
December 24, 2008, 12:49 PM
I carry 230grn hardball in my Ruger P90 although I have boxes of Federal 180grn softnose,Remington Golden Sabres and many more "modern" wonder bullets in my safe(too lazy to go upstairs to see what all is in there). My life,My gun,my choice.

S&Wfan
December 26, 2008, 11:54 PM
Hollow points or Ball?
Which is better for carry purposes in a 1911? Would you prefer to have an 8 round magazine full of Hydrashock or standard ball ammunition? The reason I ask is because I have read that hollow points don't always feed as well as a FMJ ball .45 acp round.

anybody?


Thanks,
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Save your money on additional gun "rags" and put it into ammo! Break in "Ol' Slabsides" well with that money and learn which loads shoot best (point of aim and accuracy) in your particular specimen.

After around 500 flawless rounds, you'll know your ol' brass chucker will feed the rounds you like perfectly. Then . . . avoid buying more gun rags and buy some cleaning equipment to keep your bottom feeder ever-clean and well functioning. It's gotta be about to literally shuck corn cobs even, . . . every time!

That being said, I carry Federal HydraShock or Remington Golden Sabre (both 230 grain variety) in my .45 1911. Dead on . . . dead accurate . . . and totally dependable.

Also, most folks benefit from investing in some great instruction from experienced handgunners who also know who to teach the technique!!!

T.

PS: After you are comfortable, "invest" in yourself yet again, by signing up for competitions! You'll probably use FMJ loads to save money in the "gun games" however . . . for lots of rounds go downrange! You'll also get into handloading your own stuff . . . another great benefit once the gun grabbers start going after ammunition even more! You can shoot a whole lot more when you are reloading, since it is sooooo much cheaper.

Shooting in competition will brutally expose all your flaws to yourself . . . and that's the next step in becoming a great handgunner! Along the way you'll learn how to recognize instantly jams, including stovepipes and learn to clear your weapon under stress and still shoot good times in the matches.

This may all save your life one day.

MCgunner
December 27, 2008, 12:23 PM
I've owned 2 1911s and neither would feed any hollowpoints reliably even after work. So, I now have a 100 percent reliable with anything Ruger KP90DC and no 1911s. My choice. I'd never carry ball, too much penetration and not enough tissue disruption compared to an expanding bullet. I don't hunt with FMJ, either, even though overpenetration is a concern. A non-expanding bullet has caused a few blood trailing episodes for me. If it expands, the deer usually doesn't go very far. Expansion is a good thing and if that hollowpoint fails, well, it's no worse than a ball round. Main thing, it needs to function 100 percent and 1911s on my budget don't get it done.

Treo
December 27, 2008, 01:14 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321673&highlight=fmj+jhp
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=277044&highlight=fmj+jhp
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=212760&highlight=fmj+jhp
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156700&highlight=fmj+jhp
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=73711&highlight=fmj+jhp
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=409188&highlight=hollow+point
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=383583&highlight=hollow+point

Deanimator
December 27, 2008, 03:55 PM
Main thing, it needs to function 100 percent and 1911s on my budget don't get it done.
What's your budget?

My Norinco M1911 is 100% with 200gr. Hornady TAP. Actually, it's 100% with most everything. It's never been throated. I needed some trigger group replacements and a minor amount of gunsmithing. Probably less than $100 total. I bought it for $300 with the first Bush stimulus check.

Rock Islands have a good reputation too. I'm thinking about one of their .38 Supers.

MCgunner
December 27, 2008, 08:30 PM
I'm proud for you, but I'll keep my Ruger, thanks. You got lucky from my experience with an AMT and a Auto Ordinance. The AMT had to go to a smith to work out of the box. Extractor was ill-fitted. What a POS. :rolleyes: I got it to work with ball and 200 grain SWC handloads, had it throated and polished and whatever when I had it at the smith's getting the extractor fitted. Still, no go. My Ruger will feed an empty case. If it has a bullet in it, bonus. LOL I might try a Wilson or something if I really wanted a 1911, but I really don't even like the things, grip is too narrow, don't like the safety, don't like condition one, they're heavy, don't like 'em, period. A fatter grip fits my hand better. Love the Hogues on the Ruger P guns. I still have a stash of flying ashtrays and carry them in it when I carry it.

Phydeaux642
December 27, 2008, 10:19 PM
Animals in general are thoroughly unimpressed by low velocity non-expanding round nose bullets. People may be different, but I doubt it.

Well, I don't know about you but I would be pretty darned impressed if I were to be smacked with a round of .45acp ball. Or, should I say I would be pretty pi**ed off assuming that I survived.

.38 Special
December 27, 2008, 10:35 PM
Well, shoot ten animals with hardball and ten more with hollowpoints. See which group of animals is more "impressed".

Make sure it's legal to use FMJ while hunting in your area, though. Lots of places outlaw it. A detective would call that a clue... :p

Big Bill
December 27, 2008, 11:18 PM
If .45 ACP Ball is good enough for the US military, it's good enough for me.

45 ACP Cartridge History

The .45 ACP Cartridge was conceived in the early days of the 20th Century. In 1904, the Frankford Arsenal and commercial manufacturers were asked by the U.S. Government to develop a .45 caliber pistol cartridge. Winchester and Colt, working together, developed a response released in 1905 as the ".45 Automatic Colt" matched to a new Colt pistol chambered for the cartridge.

The cartridge/pistol combination was quite successful but not satisfactory for U.S. military purposes. Over the next few years a series of improved designes were offered, culminating in the adoption in 1911 of the "Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911", a 1.273 inch cartridge with a bullet weight of 230 grains. The very first production, at Frankford Arsenal, was marked "F A 8 11", for the August 1911 date.

The cartridge was designed by John Browning of Colt, but the real influance over the choice of cartridge for the new Army pistol was Gen. John T. Thompson, (yes, the same Thompson as in Thompson submachine gun), a member of the Army Ordnance. Thompson insisted on a real "man stopper" pistol, following the poor showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols during the Philippine Insurrection (1899-1902).

Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps arranged tests in 1904 on cadavers and animal remains in the Chicago stockyards, resulting in a finding that the .45 was the most effective pistol cartridge. They noted, however, that training was critical to make sure a soldier could score a hit in a vulnerable part of the body.

In addition to its use with the M1911 pistols, the .45 ACP is used in the Thompson submachine guns, and the M-3 submachine guns as well as service revolvers Colt M-1917 and the Smith and Wesson M-1917.

The .45 ACP Cartridge in 2006
In 1985 the .45 ACP M1911A1 pistol was replaced by the M9 Beretta 9mm pistol as the main sidearm of the U.S. military, although Special Forces and others continued to use the M1911A1 or other .45 ACP pistols. In August 2005, the DoD issued specifications for the Military Forces Joint Combat Pistol (JCP), a possible replacement for the M9 Pistol. The specification requires the JCP to be chambered for .45 ACP ammunition. The JCP procurement was postponed in 2006, but it seemed clear that the days of the M9 9mm pistol were coming to an end and that its replacement will mark a return to the .45 ACP cartridge.

.45 ACP Cartridge Description
The ball bullet consists of a metal jacket surrounding a lead alloy core. The bullet tip is unpainted. The case is brass. The service grade Ball M1911 has a weight of 331 grains in a length of 1.275 inches. The bullet weight is 230 grains. Muzzle velocity is 885 fps as measured by the Army.

There are a number of cartridges in the .45 ACP family for the variety of military uses:

Cartridge, Caliber .45, Wad Cutter
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, High Pressure Test, M1
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Blank, M9
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Tracer, M26
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Line Throwing, M32
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, M1911
Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, Match, M1911
Cartridge, Dummy, Caliber .45, M1921

To use the Ball cartridges in revolvers, such as the M1917 Pistols, they must be assembled in half-moon clips that hold the rimless cartridges in proper position and also serve as a speed loader.

Under NSN 1305-00-555-7077 the ammunition nomenclature is Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, M1911. It is packaged 50 rounds per carton, 20 cartons per M2A1 metal ammo can, 2 cans per wirebound box, 36 boxes per pallet.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_45acp.php

MCgunner
December 27, 2008, 11:31 PM
.45 Ball is "good enough for the military" because by the "rules of war" (whatever the hell THAT is), it's all they can use. Actually, they don't use .45 anymore, switched to 9mm Beretta M9, so that must mean that 9mm ball is better than .45ACP ball, right? :rolleyes:

Ball is over-penetrative and I will not consider it for use in self defense for that reason alone, not just the much better effectiveness of expanding bullets. There was a story on the news tonight where a news paper carrier (I do that, too, and collect on Tuesdays, so I can relate) was accosted by a guy with a knife in a store. He pulled his CCW and fired. Now, I don't know if he shot through the guy or just missed, but he hit an innocent bystander. That's a felony in Texas no matter the circumstances, self defense or not. Yeah, he shoulda made danged sure of his background, but this illustrates one reason why I don't like ball ammo. That guy will likely be charged with "wreckless injury of a third person" under Texas statute. This is something I worry a LOT about if I have to shoot. I wanna reduce my exposure to this risk as much as possible. I guess frangibles would be ideal, but I'm not real up on frangibles, can't afford enough of 'em to test reliability. Guess I could carry 'em in a revolver, but I'll just make sure of my background and use a good hollowpoint.

Any time you pull your weapon, you'll be lookin' at legal fees. I'd like to keep those fees down and stay out of the slammer if at all possible.

Big Bill
December 27, 2008, 11:39 PM
They DO use .45 ACPIn 1985 the .45 ACP M1911A1 pistol was replaced by the M9 Beretta 9mm pistol as the main sidearm of the U.S. military, although Special Forces and others continued to use the M1911A1 or other .45 ACP pistols.The 1911 was designed for Ball ammo and it does the job. And all this hoo haa about overpenetration is nonsense.

.38 Special
December 27, 2008, 11:41 PM
Ball ammo...does the job

How do you know that to be true?

Treo
December 27, 2008, 11:44 PM
they don't use .45 anymore, switched to 9mm Beretta M9, so that must mean that 9mm ball is better than .45ACP ball, right?

He said, thereby proving he didn't read the whole post

Ruggles
December 27, 2008, 11:44 PM
230Gr FMJ has been in combat use for close to 100 years. I will take that to mean it works.

.38 Special
December 27, 2008, 11:46 PM
It apparently works for military purposes -- and military rules. A good question is whether the military's purposes and rules are the same as yours.

MCgunner
December 27, 2008, 11:55 PM
The military WANTS penetration, even in a sidearm, armor, ya know?

The 1911 was designed for Ball ammo and it does the job. And all this hoo haa about overpenetration is nonsense.

How is it "nonsense". You wanna kill a third person and go to prison? I'll let you read the statute.....

9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

okespe04
December 28, 2008, 12:02 AM
If you can afford to run enough $25 for a box of 20 jhp through you weapon then run that. If you can't then run what you know will work. I run PMC 230gr ball right now cause that is all my very new Glock 21 sf has ever seen.

MCgunner
December 28, 2008, 12:07 AM
Here's some stuff that might be really good for self defense, but I'm sure the cost will be up there for testing. I'm using XTPs in 9mm now and they feed fine. I handload 'em, so cost is low and I KNOW they work in the gun, very accurate and shoot to POA, too.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

Big Bill
December 28, 2008, 01:10 AM
How do you know that to be true?Isn't it obvious? Weren't thousands of people killed by .45 Ball in WWI and WWII? Seems like a no brainer to me!How is it "nonsense". You wanna kill a third person and go to prison? I'll let you read the statute.....No chance of that in my house; there are only two of us. Besides, I'll use my 12 gage in the house.

BTW, ya'll might find this interesting...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

We then replaced the sheetrock with something tougher, 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards.

Here I am shooting a .45ACP at the box.

We fired several rounds and saw the following Penetration:

.22 Long Rifle (Wildcats) - 4 boards and bounced off 5th board.

9MM JHP (Federal) - 8 boards, bounced off 9th.

.45ACP (Federal Hydrashocks) - 7 boards, bounced off 8th.

Amazingly, none expanded at all. The nose just filled up with pine.

(I once fired a .380 into a solid hardwood door and it just dented it and fell out. Another time my buddy and I were riding our horses in the Sawtooth mountains and found an old weathered bulls skull next to the trail. So, we stopped to eat a sandwitch and do some shooting. At 10 paces, neither of us could penetrate that bulls skull with either his .357 or my .44 mag.)

.38 Special
December 28, 2008, 02:10 AM
Isn't it obvious? Weren't thousands of people killed by .45 Ball in WWI and WWII? Seems like a no brainer to me!

Thousands of people have been killed by .22 LR as well. That doesn't make it a good self defense cartridge.

.38 Special
December 28, 2008, 02:11 AM
Stupid computer.

.38 Special
December 28, 2008, 02:12 AM
Delete.

.38 Special
December 28, 2008, 02:19 AM
Delete.

Fenris
December 28, 2008, 04:31 AM
Since studies show that in the stress of combat shooting situations, most shots are complete misses, is the concern about over-penetration misplaced.

Maybe all bullets should be attached to a string so they will not go further than intended.

I do not know the laws on these matters in Texas. But it strikes me that the operative word is "reckless". Not all actions that result in an accidental injury are reckless. Do these laws apply equally to LEO's? Or is this another example of civilians being required to achieve a higher standard than would be expected of an officer?

Deanimator
December 28, 2008, 10:05 AM
The 1911 was designed for Ball ammo and it does the job. And all this hoo haa about overpenetration is nonsense.
What "job" is that? Conforming to the terms of the Hague Convention.

All of that "hoo haa" hasn't been "nonsense" either to the people in New York City who were hit by through and throughs from the 9x19mm ball that the NYPD used to use. It wasn't "nonsense" to the cops who accidentally shot good people after having shot a bad person with the same bullet. Nor was it "nonsense" to the taxpayers of NYC who had to pay settlements or judgements arising from those accidental shootings of innocent persons.

You probably won't go to jail if you have a "good" shoot in which there's a through and through and a bystander gets shot. You probably won't even get arrested. You WILL get sued, and you WILL lose. The victim's family isn't going to care WHY you shot their relative. It just matters that you DID. The courts pretty much feel the same way. If it were my relative who got shot by your through and through and my lawyer got hold of your above quoted statement, I'd CRUSH you in civil court. And I wouldn't care if it were Osama bin Laden that you'd shot either.

Phydeaux642
December 28, 2008, 02:24 PM
Now, I don't know if he shot through the guy or just missed

Determining whether or not he hit his intended target would be very important for this arguement.

MCgunner
December 28, 2008, 02:45 PM
You probably won't go to jail if you have a "good" shoot in which there's a through and through and a bystander gets shot. You probably won't even get arrested.

Determining whether or not he hit his intended target would be very important for this arguement.

Read the statute. Nothing there concerns misses or through and throughs or whatever. If you hit an innocent, you will go to prison if properly prosecuted and convicted, TDC, not "jail". The jury will ask, "Was an innocent person hit", don't matter how he got hit, and "Was the bullet from your weapon." Ballistics will determine the latter. That's all they need know to convict.

TRUST me, you WILL get arrested. The cop ain't the judge, he will make the arrest. There ain't no ifs and buts here. You broke the law, no matter the justification for the shoot, you hit an innocent. Read this......

9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

What about this statute do you not understand? It's pretty cut and dry to me. You can parse words over the RECKLESSLY INJURES thing, but me, I ain't takin' the chance. Walking around with hardball in your weapon is pretty reckless, seems to me. Won't take much from the prosecution to convince a jury of that, either. Reckless also means you didn't make sure of your background, just started letting bullets loose in a crowded store, or whatever. And, yes, even under current Texas law post castle doctrine, you are not immune to civil suit regardless. Hope you enjoy living in a cardboard box. :rolleyes:

Deanimator
December 28, 2008, 06:25 PM
9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.
Lawfully shooting an assailant isn't "reckless", even if you have a through and through and hit someone else. If it WERE, there'd be a number of cops from the NYPD who would have done jail time for just that. They didn't.

On the other hand, hitting somebody else because of a through and through during a "good" shoot is a CIVIL TORT. You are responsible CIVILLY for where you bullets go, even if you've committed no CRIME. Except in strict liability crimes, such as statutory rape, mens rea or at least negligence is required for conviction. That is NOT required for a tortious act which injures someone. Causality only is required, and not even direct causality. For a finding of civil liability, intent isn't required, merely proof that the act took place and that the defendent caused it.

Erik
December 28, 2008, 08:41 PM
Uhhh, but the shooting of the innocent, NOT the assailant, seems to be the issue at hand, at least from my read of the argument.

----

My answer: Which ever modern, premium JHP proves to feed and perform reliably from a given pistol. Concerning bipedal threats, there is really not much argument in the matter. Shoot ball? Fine, if it is all that has proven to feed and perform reliably from your given pistol. It is a case of having to make do. Another way of putting it: make do with the best you can, beginning with ball. Of course, I'd recommend upgrading your pistol in that case, but not everyone can.

---

I know folks who have deployed to sandy, violent places who do not fall under the Hague Convention. Subsequently they are afforded the option to carry more effective ammunition than our troops are held to, namely modern, premium JHP. They are happy. Perhaps importantly to some, the troops they come into contact with apparently are duly impressed, and occasionally express the desire to be allowed to use the same.

Erik
December 28, 2008, 09:15 PM
Oh, and to the cartridge alternators: If your concerned with the reliability and performance of JHPs, presumably because of either experience or belief, why on Earth load your magazines in such a manner with cartridges you do not trust?

Ken Rainey
December 29, 2008, 07:08 PM
The good thing about a standard .45 auto 230 FMJ rd is that it isn't likely to overpenetrate on a solid torso hit and if it does, it ain't likely to have enough energy to do much else...it's a slow heavy bullet that looses it's speed and momentum after doing such, unlike 9mm ball which is more likely to do so because it is smaller and faster, thus the NYC problems - but don't forget the amount of people there, which raises the odds against.

Any bullet can "overpenetrate" if it just hits the flesh of an arm or just goes thru the skin on a bad guy's side or whatever...that's just bad shooting or bad shooting luck if the bad guy is moving a lot - crap happens. If you know there is people on the other side of your target and you absolutely have to shoot and you're close enough to your target, go to a kneeling position if possible and fire accurately toward their upper torso if you trust yourself...if you don't trust your shooting that much...well, then it's up to you.

As far as worrying about the overpenetration of a 230 grain .45 FMJ compared to a HP goes, well, you're worrying about the wrong thing. Hollow points DO NOT always expand, especially slow moving ones, I don't care who makes them or what they're called. Stating that someone is just asking to be sued or is being reckless for using 230 ball ammo is just wrong, shooting when you shouldn't be is always a liability. Now, you might could say that if we were talking about +P+ 124 9mm FMJs or .357 125 FMJ, etc. and you might would have more of a case. Use what's reliable and accurate and know your limitations, shooting limitations that is...;)

combatantr2
December 30, 2008, 08:56 AM
FMJ and the 1911 compatibility has been proven over time and time again. Not promoting PARA, but you can clearly see Jarret running 1000rounds of ball ammo in 10mins thru a 1911 design pistol with zero issues. While reliably feeding a JHP thru a 1911 is not impossible, I have yet to see for myself a 1911 running a thousand round test with JHP ammo. Have three 1911s, 2 standard and 1 commander all cheap NORCs and among the three the commander had issues with the 'soft' JHP. While the other two had great runs with JHP. JHP round count? Less than 100 rounds for each one. Are they reliable? Maybe. But for practical and peace of mind purposes I load them anyway with FMJs. But i'd like to run the other two (someday) with a JHP test of 1,000 rounds just like Jarret:D , and find out for myself.

But for now FMJs gives me the peace of mind.

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