Subcaliber inserts.


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Matt G
December 15, 2008, 06:13 PM
I have a minor fascination with subcaliber inserts.

I got some .22 LR ones in .45 Colt with the idea of shooting old guns cheaper. Problem: It shoot them far less accurately.

I got one in .410 for 12 ga. with the idea of being able to dispatch small critters quietly.
Problem: It does so much, much more expensively, and in slugs, less accurately and almost so ineffectively as to be inhumane.

I got one in .357 for 12 ga, for the same purpose.
That one works great, though it's quite inaccurate beyond 10 yards. In .38 wadcutter, it does the job nicely and quietly.

I have seen many pistol-to-rifle converters. One reason I love my .35 Whelen is that I can handload .357 pistol bullets in it, for quieter, less zippy practice or plinking loads. But I got to thinking: what of caliber conversions for it? I don't suppose that a .38 Special revolver rim would fit in the base of a .35 Whelen (read: .30-'06) case. But I would think that one could be made up for .357 Sig, which is rimless.

Anyone know of someone making such conversion sleeves in .357 Sig to .35 Whelen? Or even 9mm to .35 Whelen? .38 Super?

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NCsmitty
December 15, 2008, 08:07 PM
Anyone with a lathe and the knowledge to operate one, plus a reamer should be able to fabricate almost anything that makes sense.

NCsmitty

The Lone Haranguer
December 15, 2008, 08:14 PM
I got some .22 LR ones in .45 Colt ...
:confused: How would that work? You still have a .45-caliber bore.

gvnwst
December 15, 2008, 08:35 PM
A barrel insert? If somebody necked down the 45acp to .358, that would be easy to make a conversion for a 35w rifle...

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 15, 2008, 08:53 PM
See my last post at the bottom of the page here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=392473&page=8

The .22lr one in .45 colt *sorta* makes sense for a .22 shotshell, but not a bullet. Still the problem of the rifling spinning the shot, however.


Some of the ones that make the most sense:
.22lr in .22 magnum

.22lr in .22 hornet (don't know how they do this one)
.22lr in .223 rem (ditto)
.22 mag in .22 hornet (ditto)
.22 mag in .223 rem (ditto)
(if those are offset to get the firing pin to strike the rim, then how is the bullet centered in the bore??)

.22 hornet in .223 rem or .22-250 rem
.223 rem in .22-250 rem

.22 lr in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .22lr shotshells)
.22 mag in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .22 mag shotshells)
.45 colt in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .45 colt shotshells)
.45 acp in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 (for .45 acp shotshells)
.38 special in .410 bore, 20 ga, or 12 ga (for .38/.357 shotshells)

.410 bore in 20 ga or 12 ga
20 ga in 12 ga


7.62x39 in .308 or .30-06
.32 acp in .308 or .30-06 or 8x57mm
.30 carbine in .308 or .30-06

(I don't think you could do .30-30 win in a .308 or .30-06 could you, due to the rim on the .30-30?)

ilike223s
December 15, 2008, 09:27 PM
how about shooting 221 fieball in a 223,I like to have one,,

NCsmitty
December 15, 2008, 10:21 PM
22lr in .22 hornet (don't know how they do this one)
.22lr in .223 rem (ditto)
.22 mag in .22 hornet (ditto)
.22 mag in .223 rem (ditto)

PremiumSauces, these will work in a T.Contender as they have 2 firing pins and a rotating block in the hammer. You can select rimfire or centerfire.

MCA made inserts and adapters that covered many on your list, but they no longer have a website.

Just found these funky inserts.
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=765870&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

And I found these.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=489745

NCsmitty

RyanM
December 15, 2008, 11:21 PM
have seen many pistol-to-rifle converters. One reason I love my .35 Whelen is that I can handload .357 pistol bullets in it, for quieter, less zippy practice or plinking loads. But I got to thinking: what of caliber conversions for it? I don't suppose that a .38 Special revolver rim would fit in the base of a .35 Whelen (read: .30-'06) case. But I would think that one could be made up for .357 Sig, which is rimless.

I think the rim diameters are still similar. Let's see. 0.422" rim dia for .40 S&W (nickel plated Speer), 0.435" for .357 mag (Winchester). Not that much difference. .30-06 is .470", so I think .38 SPL might work.

Hm, MCA must have gone down recently. Their website was still there as of 2 weeks ago. I guess it may be a good thing I didn't place an order. :(

Wish I could find someone to make my 3-shot .22 to 12 gauge adapter idea. Use rifled barrels and it could be relatively accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/syldssuf/shell3.gif

NCsmitty
December 16, 2008, 09:10 AM
Interesting concept RyanM, although I see no dimensions to verify. The method of securing the capping/firingpin part for easy access and alignment needs to be addressed.
I would suggest a one piece cap with a single metal piece of round stock for a firing pin, large enough to fire all barrels at once. I'm just not sure if a shotgun would impart enough force to the large pin to fire the 22's. The one piece cap would use a simple O ring to secure in the body and would not need alignment.

Simply using a section of 22 barrel liner would work for the barrels.

At least it's fun to dream about such things.

NCsmitty

oldgold
December 16, 2008, 11:02 AM
www.mcase.com

NCsmitty
December 16, 2008, 01:29 PM
For anyone interested, here's another site that has adapters.
I knew I had seen this site before, but it wasn't bookmarked.

http://store.dinaarms.com/product_p/12ga22lr.htm

NCsmitty

Vern Humphrey
December 16, 2008, 01:31 PM
The Hammond Game Getter is the best for my money.

http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter/

The Game Getter is essentially a standard case with a steel head and an offset "primer pocket." The primer pocket is really a chamber for a .22 RF, positioned so the centerfire firing pin will hit the rim of the case.

The Game Getter comes with a sizing die which you use to size buckshot to the appropriate caliber. In use, you insert a Ramset (tm) blank in the chamber, a sized shot in the mouth of the case, and fire away.

I have one in .30-06, and the shot impacts at the thick top of the bottom crosshair at 25 yards, producing 1 inch groups. It's ideal for deer hunting, when the squirrels try to carry you off your stand.:p

Hammond Game Getters are available in all standard cartridtges, and for wildcats, if you send Hammond a case he will make one up special.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
December 16, 2008, 02:10 PM
The 3 shot .22 would fall under NFA regulations. There is a comapny that makes something similar for 37 or 40 mm launchers its called a beehive and fires either 10 or 18 .22 at once (i can't remember)

I am waiting for someone to suggest using a 26mm flare to 12 gauge adapter then a 12 gauge to 9mm adapter so you can get a 9mm single shot without any paper work

JImbothefiveth
December 16, 2008, 02:13 PM
Anyone know of someone making such conversion sleeves in .357 Sig to .35 Whelen? Or even 9mm to .35 Whelen? .38 Super?
I'm not a gunsmith, but wouldn't .35 whelen pressures in a 9mm destroy the gun, and possibly it's user?

Matt G
December 16, 2008, 03:07 PM
JImbothefiveth:
:) Funny guy. Everyone's a comedian. :) (I think I made clear that I was speaking of a sleeve to shoot 9mm in a .35 Whelen, rather than the other way around... :uhoh:)

I can speak to the Dina Arms .357 adaptors for 12 ga.: They're well-made, and give okay accuracy, for what it is. I never shot anything but light .38 Special through it, though.

The mcase.com URL is a dead link.

The Hammond Game Getter is well-though of. It's not what I want, however.

The .22 adaptor in .45 Colt works by having the .22 LR hole off-center, so that the centerfire .45 Colt firing pin strikes the rim of the cartridge for good ignition. There is about a half inch or so of rifling in it. Probably better accuracy that we got could be attained by carefully placing the same adaptors in the same positions in the same chambers every time. But we (my father and I) were disappointed.

NCsmitty
December 16, 2008, 04:09 PM
I've had these for many years. I mentioned them on another thread. They have about 1" of rifling and I use lead only, 250gr@1100fps inthe 44 mag. 148gr wadcutters in the 357 Mag. Both will keep 2-3" group at around 30yds out of my rifle sighted single barrel 12ga.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=83710&d=1219781688



NCsmitty

Matt G
December 16, 2008, 04:50 PM
While I agree that the Dina is a good product for shotgun, I'm looking for .357 adaptors or inserts to use in a .35 Whelen rifle.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 16, 2008, 04:58 PM
oldgold, that link is no good...which one did you mean to post?

highlander 5
December 16, 2008, 05:02 PM
If you get Shotgun News there was a fellow from Alaska that made all kinds of sub caliber inserts just can't remember his name off hand.

RyanM
December 16, 2008, 05:11 PM
The 3 shot .22 would fall under NFA regulations. There is a comapny that makes something similar for 37 or 40 mm launchers its called a beehive and fires either 10 or 18 .22 at once (i can't remember)

When was the last time you saw an M203 or M79 that was registered as a machine gun? The ATF's ruling is that a single cartridge can shoot as many projectiles as you want (i.e., buckshot, birdshot), so long as it's a single cartridge. A bunch of .22s loaded into a beehive round become a single cartridge, since the whole thing is set off by one primer. Same for my design.

-------------

Interesting concept RyanM, although I see no dimensions to verify. The method of securing the capping/firingpin part for easy access and alignment needs to be addressed.
I would suggest a one piece cap with a single metal piece of round stock for a firing pin, large enough to fire all barrels at once. I'm just not sure if a shotgun would impart enough force to the large pin to fire the 22's. The one piece cap would use a simple O ring to secure in the body and would not need alignment.

It actually is dimensioned, 1 pixel = 0.005". I was just too lazy to put them on.

Anyway, I really doubt that a shotgun firing pin would have enough power to fire 3 .22s at once, plus there's the legality thing mentioned above. It may be that it'd still be legal since they're all in a single cartridge, but we already know that primer-actuated designs are legal.

Alignment would just be by 3 protrusions on the walls in the part of the adapter that holds the barrels, which line up with 3 slots on the firing pin whatsit (the red part).

Actually, though, you may be onto something. I bet a primer would have enough punch that a simple one-piece firing pin could whack all three.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
December 18, 2008, 01:16 PM
When was the last time you saw an M203 or M79 that was registered as a machine gun? The ATF's ruling is that a single cartridge can shoot as many projectiles as you want (i.e., buckshot, birdshot), so long as it's a single cartridge. A bunch of .22s loaded into a beehive round become a single cartridge, since the whole thing is set off by one primer. Same for my design.

Well all 40mm grenade launchers are NFA, and 37mm flare launchers become NFA once you load with anything besides flare or smoke. Your device would become NFA because it fires 3 shots with a single trigger pull. I agree you can fire multiple projectiles from a single cartridge, not multiple cartridges. I am not sure why you think loading 3 cartridges into a single larger device qualifies the device as a single cartridge. They are still 3 separate cartridges. You would be firing 3 shots with a single trigger pull (a machine gun).
Notice I used NFA to describe the device. NFA is not just machine guns, it could be DD, AOW, SBS, SBR, silencer. So 40mm and 37mm anti personnel are NFA because they are destructive devices.

TEDDY
December 18, 2008, 04:08 PM
alex cart.in alaska.
I have auxilary cart in 30/06-303-8 mm-30/40all take 32 acp

SpamHandler
December 18, 2008, 10:00 PM
Try this one. It works for me. http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

RyanM
December 19, 2008, 06:37 AM
Well all 40mm grenade launchers are NFA, and 37mm flare launchers become NFA once you load with anything besides flare or smoke. Your device would become NFA because it fires 3 shots with a single trigger pull. I agree you can fire multiple projectiles from a single cartridge, not multiple cartridges. I am not sure why you think loading 3 cartridges into a single larger device qualifies the device as a single cartridge. They are still 3 separate cartridges. You would be firing 3 shots with a single trigger pull (a machine gun).

"NFA" is not a simple, black-and-white catch-all classification. You cannot register an AR-15 as a short-barreled rifle, then go ahead and install an auto-sear.

Likewise, you cannot buy a destructive device and turn it into a machine gun, nor can you buy a machine gun and turn it into a destructive device.

The ATF's ruling that a "beehive" round is a single cartridge may not make any sense, but how many of their rulings do?

NFA classifications basically have several tiers. An NFA weapon may have features of lower tier classifications, but not equal or higher tier ones.

In the top tier are machine guns and destructive devices (also silencers, I guess). There are also a few weapons which are both a machine gun and a destructive device, like full auto shotguns and grenade launchers, but those would actually be entered into the registry twice, under both classifications (though you only fill out the paperwork once).

The second tier is short-barreled rifles and short-barreled shotguns.

The third tier is AOWs.

In other words, a machine gun may be made into an SBR if you want, because machine gun overrides short-barreled classifications. But you cannot rebarrel a machine gun into a caliber greater than .50, since then it would be a destructive device as well.

You can take a registered destructive device and cut the barrel down so that it's an SBS or SBR. But you cannot put an auto-sear in and turn your destructive device into a machine gun. "NFA" does not mean "I can turn this thing into any kind of NFA weapon I want." If that was the case, everyone would be selling parts kits to build a machine gun on an M79 or M203 receiver.

Also, mcace.com is back up, hooray. I guess they didn't go out of business after all.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
December 19, 2008, 08:00 AM
I can see this has derailed like AMTRAK under ideal conditions, nevermind.

DammitBoy
October 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
I recently acquired a M6 scout with the .22 hornet over .410 barrels.

I've sent an email to the folks at MCA to see if their conversion sleeve for .22lr/.22 hornet will work in the rifle.

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

This link works.

nitroexpress
April 25, 2012, 06:23 PM
I purchased a pair of 44 Rem mag adapters for my 20 gauge O/U. Mostly to prove or disprove the concept. If you buy adapters, I'd suggest getting ones that are rifled. The smooth bore ones I bought were nicely made and accuracy was pretty decent for what they are. One can easily hit a pie plate at 15 yards with the right load. High velocity loads will keyhole bullets, even at 10 yards. I also have one in 22 lr to 22-250, it works OK but I have yet to find a need for it. Shooting 44's in a 20 is a blast, no recoil, and they rip the crap out of tin cans. It's like shooting a stocked derringer, we've already ripped through over 100 rounds. Once the novelty wears off, they will probably just sit in the drawer, next to all the other silly bobbles I've bought.

Vern Humphrey
April 25, 2012, 09:26 PM
The best adapters I've found is the Hammond Game Getter -- this is a cartridge case with an off-center primer pocket -- the primer pocket is really a .22 rimfire chamber.

To use it, you load a nail setting blank in the chamber and put a sized buckshot in the case mouth. Mine will shoot 1" groups from my Model 70 Winchester (.30-06) at 25 yards, with the group centered at the top of the thick portion of the bottom crosshair.

303tom
April 25, 2012, 11:19 PM
I use them, I think they are great...............

drsfmd
April 26, 2012, 11:02 AM
The McAce inserts that aren't large enough for the offset seat the bullet very deeply, and you then put a little metal "plug" over the end of the bullet which has an offset tab built in.

303tom
April 26, 2012, 11:48 AM
Here is my Enfield 2A............

RPRNY
April 26, 2012, 01:38 PM
http://www.mcace.com/rifleinserts.html

I just purchased a 10" MCA 30-30 insert for my 20 ga SxS to cover grouse/deer overlap in VT where sub 50 yard shots are frequent. I understand Ace uses ES Shaw barrels cut to length and turned down with several grooves to place O rings for barrel fit. I have no experience of the rifle adapters, but for any of these adapters to work, they need to either adapt a cartridge with a bullet diameter that matched your barrel or, like the shotgun insterts, be of sufficient length to offer some rifling. I think the 12ga 45LC adapter would be quite effective.

DammitBoy
April 26, 2012, 08:59 PM
I'm looking for a 22 lr adapter to fit my 22 hornet M6 Scout. I've emailed mcace to see if their TC version would work in my rifle, but they never responded.

Vern Humphrey
April 26, 2012, 09:16 PM
You have a special problem there -- you don't have enough room in a .22 Hornet chamber to allow you to offset a .22 LR enough for the firing pin to hit the rim. You would need an adaptor with its own firing pin that would be powered by your standard centerfire firing pin.

I think you'd be better off developing a cast bullet load using about 1.0 to 2.0 grains of Bullseye powder.

DammitBoy
April 26, 2012, 09:37 PM
Vern, 'mcace' has such an adapter listed on their site. It says for the thompson contender - but I'm wondering if it would work in any other 22 hornet set-up.

Vern Humphrey
April 26, 2012, 09:58 PM
You could give them a call and see if it will work in your rifle -- but I would think it would be cheaper and simpler to work up a cast bullet load for the .22 Hornet. I use just a smidgen of Bullseye, increasing the charge until I get 1200 - 1300 fps. My Hodgdon Manual #26 lists 4.2 grains of HS 6 behind a 45-grain lead bullet for 1746 fps.

DammitBoy
April 27, 2012, 11:07 AM
Not a reloader Vern, but I appreciate the advise.

nitroexpress
April 28, 2012, 08:05 AM
A neat trick for the 22H is to modify the back of the case for a shotgun primer (propellant) and use a 22 airgun pellet for the projectile. A small lathe makes it easier but a drill press and file works as well. I made one for a 300 Savage, to shoot a lead ball. It works but velocity was a bit low.

If you do get into reloading, you could follow Verns advice, the only change I'd suggest is to check if Trail Boss powder would work, it's bulkier.

I had a Topper in 22H, what a POS. Sometimes you just get a bad one. Just my opinion, but if you were to start reloading, the 22H is not a good one to start with, too small. You would hardly notice a 1/2 grain too much powder in a 30-06, but a 1/2 grain too much in a 22H is bad.

In reality, the 22H is something you would use as the ammo in an adapter, it is only one step ahead of the 22 Mag RF.

303tom
April 28, 2012, 09:40 AM
A neat trick for the 22H is to modify the back of the case for a shotgun primer (propellant) and use a 22 airgun pellet for the projectile. A small lathe makes it easier but a drill press and file works as well. I made one for a 300 Savage, to shoot a lead ball. It works but velocity was a bit low.

If you do get into reloading, you could follow Verns advice, the only change I'd suggest is to check if Trail Boss powder would work, it's bulkier.

I had a Topper in 22H, what a POS. Sometimes you just get a bad one. Just my opinion, but if you were to start reloading, the 22H is not a good one to start with, too small. You would hardly notice a 1/2 grain too much powder in a 30-06, but a 1/2 grain too much in a 22H is bad.

In reality, the 22H is something you would use as the ammo in an adapter, it is only one step ahead of the 22 Mag RF.
No! The .218 Bee is only one step ahead of the .22WMR, the .22 Hornet is two steps above...........LOL.

DammitBoy
April 28, 2012, 11:21 AM
Mcace finally responded to my third email. They say their adapter only works on Thompson Contenders in 22 hornet because of the two firing pins in the TC system...

NG VI
April 28, 2012, 11:36 AM
.22lr in .22 hornet (don't know how they do this one)
.22lr in .223 rem (ditto)
.22 mag in .22 hornet (ditto)
.22 mag in .223 rem (ditto)
(if those are offset to get the firing pin to strike the rim, then how is the bullet centered in the bore??)


Why not make it a three piece conversion, a chamber insert, and if it has a detachable magazine or can be made this way a magwell block and .22 magazine that sits further forward to accomodate a center-to-rimfire firing pin adaptor on the front of the bolt?

Vern Humphrey
April 28, 2012, 12:26 PM
Why not make it a three piece conversion, a chamber insert, and if it has a detachable magazine or can be made this way a magwell block and .22 magazine that sits further forward to accomodate a center-to-rimfire firing pin adaptor on the front of the bolt?
That's exactly how it's done. There is a "cartridge case" that comes apart. The .22 LR is inserted in the front part, with the bullet sticking out the neck. The rear of the case is then attached. The "Primer" is actually a plunger with an offset firing pin. When the plunger is struck by the firing pin of the centerfire rifle, it drives the offset pin into the rim of the .22 LR.

One problem with this arrangement is that the cartridge has to be much bigger han the .22 LR, since the .22 LR has to go inside. For a Hornet, that doesn't leave much room.

Another problem is, to fire another shot, you have to disassemble the subcaliber device and knock out the spent case -- which can be stuck tight.

A variant of this design uses centerfire pistol cartridges (for example, the .32 ACP) in an adaptor for something like the .30-06. Most of the pistol cartridge sticks out of the adaptor, forming a "neck." On firing, the pistol cartridge can swell forward of the adaptor so than it can't be punched back, and sometimes has to be cut off.

DM~
April 28, 2012, 05:32 PM
I shot many a pellet in my Hornets (when i had them) by driveing the old primer out with a nail, putting a new small rifle magnum primer back in, and pushing a 22 cal. pellet in BACKWARDS with my thumb. Push it in flush with the case mouth, no powder needed...

DM

mr.trooper
April 28, 2012, 06:02 PM
In my humble opinion, 'Trail Boss' powder makes sub caliber inserts almost obsolete. Changing your powder load turns a 30-06 into a 30 carbine, or a 375 H&H into a 357 maximum.

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