Ohio laws Invalid?


PDA






ScottG1911
December 15, 2008, 11:50 PM
2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.
(A) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(2) Subject to division (B) of this section, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

Now section (3) says no body including a parent can give me a handgun until I am 21. now here is the federal laws' position

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

now you will see that it says juveniles less than 18 years of age. I am 19 which according to the federal government I am allowed to be given a handgun by my parents.

Now I know many of you will try and say " well state law says you cannot have one, you are gonna get in trouble blah blah blah " You had ought to read the constitution before blabbering, here is the supremacy clause, which says Federal laws supercede conflicting state laws, so I really am allowed to be given a handgun by my parents with no foul.

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

If you enjoyed reading about "Ohio laws Invalid?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 12:43 AM
was there really a question there? or were you just making a pronouncement

kingpin008
December 16, 2008, 01:09 AM
Indeed, I don't really see the question. Of course state law applies.

GRIZ22
December 16, 2008, 01:17 AM
ScottG1911,

State laws cannot supercede federal law but state laws can be more restrictive. Based on your argument most of the gun laws in many of the more restrictive states would be invalid. Federal law basically states you have to be 21, ID yourself, pass a NICS, fill out and answer questions on a 4473 correctly to buy a handgun. Many states require purchase permits and registration. You have to do all the federal stuff and the state stuff. That's not superceding the federal law. These things are within the sovereignty of the state to do. I'm not a lawyer but this is the way it was a explained to me by lawyers.

NavyLCDR
December 16, 2008, 06:03 AM
Do whatever you want to do ScottG1911. There are probably tens of thousands of state laws all across the country that are more restrictive than Federal Laws, so, according to you, you don't have to obey those either. In fact, according to your reasoning, the only state laws that would be valid would be those that mirror Federal laws exactly. Good luck to you.

cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 06:34 AM
write to someone so they can post the results

woof
December 16, 2008, 07:51 AM
It was clearly not the intent of the federal law to supercede state laws and therefore they do not. The OP is bound by his state law.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm

subknave
December 16, 2008, 07:54 AM
write to someone so they can post the results


And don't forget to say HI to Bubba, while you sit in jail waiting for your trial.

ScottG1911
December 16, 2008, 09:21 AM
I have called an ATF office and was told that yes, my parents are allowed to buy me a handgun. I dont know thats just what he told me, and many gun shops told me. but the ATF man is a little more, uh do I say this, adapt to be correct. Plus I've carried my gun openly and have been stopped by the cops, who have unholstered my weapon, checked for warrants, and then handed it right back to me, with not any problems arising. and this was done with 3 officers present. So I dont know, it's getting confusing. im not to concerned, if they got a problem I can take care of it my way if need be

cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 09:29 AM
still waiting to find out what your question is. or are you just announcing that your parents, at least, feel comfortable with you carrying

Bubba613
December 16, 2008, 10:00 AM
The 2A is the only permit he really needs. It says "shall not infringe." The state law is infringing. Federal law and esp the Constitution trump state law so the state law is invalid and he can carry.
Go ahead, sonny. Strap it on and when Officer Friendly stops you show him this post.

shdwfx
December 16, 2008, 10:24 AM
ScottG1911, please go back and re-read these threads in which you participated (April 08):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=352427
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=351752

Ohio law hasn't changed on this since then; and, no, you still may not carry a handgun in Ohio until you are 21.

Please don't carry until then and blacken the collective eyes of your fellow* law abiding gun owners.



*well, technically, we aren't "fellow" owners since you still can't legally own a handgun in Ohio.

cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 10:37 AM
to say nothing of making parents look bad

NavyLCDR
December 16, 2008, 11:25 AM
Ohio law hasn't changed on this since then; and, no, you still may not carry a handgun in Ohio until you are 21.

Would you please post the Ohio law that says he can't carry a handgun in Ohio at 18 to 21 years of age, or possess a handgun 18 to 21 in Ohio? There is no Ohio law that forbids that.

He cannot be given or sold a handgun, legally, within the state of Ohio, but there are at least 3 scenarios where an 18 to 20 year old can legally come into possession of a handgun outside the state of Ohio, bring those handguns into Ohio and OC. It's not the possession or OC that is illegal, it is the sale of gifting of the handguns to him.

His parents committed two separate felonies in ORS:
2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.
(A) No person shall do any of the following:
(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

and, if they purchased the handgun in Ohio:
(7) Purchase or attempt to purchase any handgun with the intent to sell the handgun in violation of division (A)(2) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age or with the intent to furnish the handgun in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age.

And, if the seller knew the parents were going to give it to him, the seller committed a felony:
(5) Sell or furnish a handgun to a person who is twenty-one years of age or older if the seller or furnisher knows, or has reason to know, that the person is purchasing or receiving the handgun for the purpose of selling the handgun in violation of division (A)(2) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age or for the purpose of furnishing the handgun in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of improperly furnishing firearms to a minor, a felony of the fifth degree.

HOWEVER, Scott did not break any laws, because the law only prohibits him from purchasing or attempting to purchase a handgun,

2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun.
(B) No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if the person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

Since the handgun was a gift to him, and he did not purchase or attempt to purchase it, then, legally, he did not commit any crime, and he is also not committing a crime by carrying it. Now, knowing that my parents committed two separate felonies, and possibly a seller committed a felony, I wouldn't be on here bragging about that fact and I wouldn't be carrying that gun around town.

Let me ask you this, Scott.... have your parents read these posts on THR and the other forums that you brag on? Have your parents been shown the Ohio Law and consulted an attorney to determine if, in fact, they are felons?

shdwfx
December 16, 2008, 01:06 PM
Would you please post the Ohio law that says he can't carry a handgun in Ohio at 18 to 21 years of age, or possess a handgun 18 to 21 in Ohio?

2923.21 (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21) (3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;


He isn't explicitly breaking the letter of the law, but the verbiage clearly indicates that the intent is to prevent anyone under 21 from possessing a handgun unsupervised. AT A MINIMUM, his parents are potentially in hot water and I wouldn't bet against him getting slapped with it as well. Couldn't the argument be that, being legally of age, he may not provide a handgun to himself for possession?

Even if that weren't the case, he may not carry concealed in Ohio without a permit and that can only be obtained by reaching 21 years of age.

Unless he plans to walk everywhere (open carry) or empty the magazine of his gun every time he gets in a car (in Ohio, CHL holders are exempt), he will most certainly be breaking the law.

ScottG1911
December 16, 2008, 06:44 PM
Ok so can somebody please explain how the state law can get away with completely conflicting a federal law? Because the state law is completely throwing out an entire section of federal law, which seems like more than the so called " restriction " as mentioned before. in a sence, that is like a state banning african americans from private schools, even though federal government said it's a no no

cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 07:03 PM
Because the state law is completely throwing out an entire section of federal law, w


nope

ScottG1911
December 16, 2008, 08:19 PM
still waiting to find out what your question is. or are you just announcing that your parents, at least, feel comfortable with you carrying

Maybe you should try and read the title, it has a little thing called a question mark, usually means that there is a question intended before it. and yes my parents would trust me if I carried a gun, I unlike some people know how to use one.

I have carried a weapon only one time, and it was carried openly. I really dont have a need to carry so I havent done it since. did I mention any where in my post's where I had received my weapon? You guys took the judgement that I got it from my parents. thats for me to know and you never to find out. Now the reason i have posted here is to get the opinons of my fellow high roaders, so that i do not break the law. I gave you my arguement and have been chastised for it.

Because the state law is completely throwing out an entire section of federal law, w


nope

Ok, so if the state took my freedom of speech from me and killed all who spoke out, according to you that is not completely throwing a section of federal law out. I guess you have absolutly no problem for everyone in my state to lose their gun rights huh? after all the state has the right too. you seem like the kinda person who might like to set My constitution on fire.

cassandrasdaddy
December 16, 2008, 08:28 PM
you know what? i agree with much of the underlying principle of what you say. and i can understand why it bothers you. however the law is less concerned with those principles or our opinions and you won't enjoy running afoul of the law

dwave
December 16, 2008, 08:29 PM
It's funny you asked for opinions on the subject, yet you attack them after they disagree!

Anyways, State law can be more restrictive than federal, but it can't go the other way around.

Ohio Gun Guy
December 16, 2008, 09:36 PM
Scott1911

I have had cause to be in several court cases for work, they did not involve criminal matters, but I think the following will apply.

You are taking a position based on your reading of the law. Legal rulings are typically based on the legislative law and something else called case law. Case law are the previous rulings (Interpritations) based on similar cases in our state. The legal system in general does not to go against legislative law or case law. In Ohio, what you are arguing is against both. You may have a valid point, you may actually be reading a grey area that might have existed if you were to be the first to run into this, however this has been long settled. You may have been extremely lucky with the previous police officers. You are running a great risk of getting youself introuble and anyone associated with you coming into possession of that pistol. From a idealistic point of view, I agree with you in that an 18 year old, who can serve in the military, vote, and is subject to criminal conviction as an adult, should be afforded all of the rights and responsibilities that comes with that. However, THAT IS NOT THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION!

ScottG1911
December 17, 2008, 03:42 PM
Thanks for all your responses. Im sorry if i came off as an :cuss: to any of you. I just get frustrated that I as an American adult cannot have my rights I deserve. I thought i found a mistake in the law, but im apparently wrong. I have writen a letter to the ATF, but my guess is they will blow it off. I think Ohio Gun Guy has a pretty strong arguement, so needless to say I dont get my gun i planned to get:(

cassandrasdaddy
December 17, 2008, 03:45 PM
the years will pass quick. and the older you get the quicker they pass

Ohio Gun Guy
December 17, 2008, 07:11 PM
Sorry...


Get a nice rifle or shotgun.

BUT, Remember when transporting them, make sure gun and ammo is seperate, ammo is locked, gun in "plain sight", etc.
ALSO, a loaded magazine in the same vehicle as the rifle (Or any "Clip" fed gun) is considered loaded (As if one is in the chamber)

Frank Ettin
December 17, 2008, 09:59 PM
In any case, the state law applies until a court says it doesn't.

rtroha
December 18, 2008, 11:20 AM
Last night, the Ohio legislature passed Am. Sub. House Bill 450. Once that bill is signed by Gov. Strickland, military personal between 18-20 years old will be able to legally purchase a handgun in Ohio.

So if the OP joins the Ohio National Guard, he can then purchase a handgun.

NavyLCDR
December 18, 2008, 04:13 PM
Is it any military, or Active Duty military? If it is Active Duty military, then National Guard won't count.

NavyLCDR
December 18, 2008, 04:19 PM
Is it any military, or Active Duty military? If it is Active Duty military, then National Guard won't count.

shdwfx
December 18, 2008, 04:20 PM
Is it any military, or Active Duty military?

Active or reserve, whether that's US military or Ohio Natl Guard.

From HB 450

Sec. 2923.211
(B) No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if the either of the following apply:
(1)...
...(2) The person is an active or reserve member of the armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, or was honorably discharged from military service in the active or reserve armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, and the person has received firearms training from the armed services or the national guard or equivalent firearms training.

The only thing I don't like about it is it's an exception for the "only ones."
"Regular" citizens need not apply.

If you enjoyed reading about "Ohio laws Invalid?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!