[Sven]

I have my first night shoot coming up for IDPA here soon... anyone got any tips?

How do you 'index' your flashlight with POA?

Thanks,

-s

[Gary G23]

One thing I learned was to use the pistol with Meprolights instead of the one with Heinies. Mepros are a lot easier to see after dark. I hold my Surefire between the second and third fingers of my weak hand. Palm turns on the momentary switch. You just have to practice getting on target with the light same as the gun.

[Correia]

Sven, I've done really well in IDPA night matches, do a search here under my name and you can find the thread. I just got to work, but at lunch time I'll post what ever tips I can think of.

[Correia]

Sven, here is what I've learned.

Night sights are your friend. They really do help. I use Ashley's and they are much faster to index in the dark. If you don't have night sights, you can still do okay, but realize that you probably are not going to be able to get a very good traditional sight picture. This is where having practiced your index really helps.

As for flash light technique, Harries, Rodgers, whatever. Find which one works for you. Be sure to dry fire with your pistol and light. Do it a bunch. If your technique is to have the hand w/ light seperate from your gun hand, be sure not to cross the light infront of the gun. If you use the technique where your light arm goes over your gun arm and the light sticks out the other side (forget what that one is called) be sure not to hit yourself in the hand with the slide. :)

Personally I like the technique where you hold your Surefire between your fingers like a cigar, and then take up an almost normal firing grip, but that is just what works for me.

Don't spend time trying to get the light perfectly alligned on the target, the light just needs to get close enough to illuminate. I saw way to many shooters trying to line up the light perfectly on the target, as long as you can see the target, hurry up and shoot.

If your light has a larynard, use it. That way if you need to reload, tac-reload, or clear a malfunction you can just drop the light. Be sure to practice your reloads with the light in your hand, it will change the feel drastically.

If you normally use something like a Surefire, be sure to bring along a cheap maglite or something else to use while you score and tape. Surefire batteries are expensive, also if you are running the score sheet, do not shine your Surefire directly onto the paper, because you will be blind for the next few minutes.

Don't worry about pistol muzzle flash blinding you. Out of all the shooters I have seen in a match setting at night, almost none of the loads caused enough flash to really hurt your vision. Now we have done a rifle night match, and there are some rifle loads that will totally blind you. :) (Barnaul 7.62x39 will make you see blue spots instead of targets!)

[Carnitas]

Check this out. http://www.suarezinternational.com/harries.html

Also, work on system for No/Low light methods of determining loaded/unloaded.

[Sven]

http://www.suarezinternational.com/harries3.jpg

That's halfway to the 'gangster' side, where Birdman sights may be needed. ;) Seriously, thanks for the link. Time to practice.

[eerw]

Also..

be aware...the dark is a whole different environment to work in..
people have a strange way of forgeting or doing things differently when you change a parameter of which they are use to operating in.


So be dilegent on safety and be aware..


besides that...you got some good flashlight techniques to choose from and you will see the value of night sights..good luck, have fun, be safe

[Sven]

Had a great shoot - learned a ton. Surprised myself in the level with weak-hand around a barrier - had no problems at all and only a couple points down.

Some images:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42178

Most impressive was watching the REALLY good guys... even at night, swift on their feet and blazing on the double taps. I have a long long ways to go.

My BRAND NEW SureFire G2 failed after it's first string. I had lucked out and won another SureFire that night, so I switched the bulbs. Hope my next bulb lasts longer. :fire: All in all, can't complain.

[Sven]

That night shoot was a blast (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42178)!

[Carnitas]

Once you try dark, you can never go back!

[106rr]

The three bears event gets more sophisticated each year. This year they had one of the grizzlies on a trolley track so it ran across the range behind a screen of brush.
Last year they had a simulated flickering campfire, few people have any experience shooting by firelight. My hat is off to Duane Young of Midvalley Shooters in Turlock. Great shoot Duane.
We also had some events shot by flashing police light bars on top of cars. One event went by moonlight alone.
Duane and I tested some combat loads for muzzle flash after the shoot,

[Sven]

If you click my link above (the words 'a blast') you will see pictures of those stages. Allen is the mastermind behind the stage design, I believe.

[Carnitas]

Sven,

How did you modified harries work out.?

[106rr]

Alan is rightfully called "Mr Wizard" in the Turlock club for his incredible work on stage design. I mentioned Duane for other work he had done on the night shoot. I should have mentioned Alan and all the others who worked so hard. Thanks to all for a great night shoot.

[Sven]

I used the technique where you hold the flashlight between the index and middle fingers of the weak hand and found it to work perfectly - crossing the flashlight under my wrist seems hard to perform compared to this technique.

I have no problems keeping the flashlight indexed when firing my 1911. For the weak hand shots with a barrier, I actually raised the flashlight up above my head with my strong hand and peered around the barrier. No problems controlling the gun with my weak hand alone - first time ever trying that in my life - I love my .45!

Placed 4th in CDP and 5th overall out of 29 shooters. Not bad for a newbie. Hey - I beat Jardine!

[Andrew Wyatt]

I might have to go to turlock for this "night shoot".

As an aside, when Harries taught me his technique, he didn't cant his gun.

[Sven]

The night shoot is invitation only. The way to get invited is to shoot regularly in the regular Turlock matches.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I shall have to do that as well, then.

[Frohickey]

Actually, the best nightshoot tip is to use a Glock and the ITI M3 Tactical light.
Or a HK USP and the ITI M3 Tactical light
Or a Sig P220ST and the ITI M3 Tactical light
Or a Springfield Armory 1911 Operator and the ITI M3 Tactical light

:D :D :D :D

[Andrew Wyatt]

or an m-1 abrams with thermal imaging. :)

[Sven]

No weapons mounted lights are allowed at this nightshoot.

[Andrew Wyatt]

seriously, though, i'm going to have to start shooting with you guys.

[Frohickey]

Oh... no weapons mounted lights allowed... got it...

An artificial limitation on equipment. Glad that the rulesmaking body in my place of residence doesn't artificially limit self-defense equipment.

[Archer]

Oh... no weapons mounted lights allowed... got it...An artificial limitation on equipment. Glad that the rulesmaking body in my place of residence doesn't artificially limit self-defense equipment.

You raise an interesting point in mentioning "self-defense" in the context of this sort of light.

In a discussion on the merits of coaxial mounted weapon lights for defensive weapons, in a recent Gunsite 350 class, it was pointed out that a private citizen who uses such a light mounted to a weapon for anything other than defensive purposes is essentially brandishing a firearm- felonious conduct in most places.


At the least you violate Rule Two when "searching" with such a light.

So, perhaps there's no rule about having a coaxial light on your defensive pistol- but how you choose to use that pistol light may be an entirely different matter.

One could argue that coaxial lights are therefore fine for offensive weapons (SWAT teams) but for self-defense I would tend to think twice about the subject.


By the way, current training is that once that light is on, in general, it might as well stay on... of course, movement is still required. This is somewhat different than the previously taught doctrine of flash-on-flash-off-move-flash-on. Also, lanyards must now be break-away type...no knots in that 550 cord.

[Carnitas]

The night shoot is invitation only.

A wise precaution for a night shoot.

Shooting with people who are scarry is super extra scarry at night when you cant watch them.

[Sven]

One could argue that coaxial lights are therefore fine for offensive weapons (SWAT teams) but for self-defense I would tend to think twice about the subject.
FWIW, Chuck Taylor called an attached light a "SWAT Setup" and said that there was a good possibility that the opposing legal team (esp. here in CA) would use this against you in a SD shooting.

[Andrew Wyatt]

At the least you violate Rule Two when "searching" with such a light.


you don't use the flashlight to search. you use it to confirm the identity of a target, and i'm willing to bet real money that the reason why they don't allow mounted lights is because shooting with a mounted light on in darkness is not functionally different from shooting in daylight.

[Chris Rhines]

I suppose that a set of PVS-7Bs with a weapon-mounted IR designator would be right out, then? Too bad...

- Chris

[Correia]

At our last night shoot we didn't forbid weapon mounted lights. However since it was an IDPA match we started most stages from concealment. So if you had a holster that concleaed your pistol with the light attached under a normal coverning garment we allowed it. However nobody did. :)

I shot in 2 night shoots this year. 2nd in one, 1st in the other. Just call me "Correia Master of Darkness"! I love night shoots.

[InTheBlack]

A light mounted on the weapon is something which keeps things simple for the home-defender. Trying to shoot one-handed while holding a light in the other increases the chances of a miss that penetrates the wall into an undesirable place. SWAT guys can be assumed to be using the best methods for seeing in the dark; it can be a positive factor to a jury when explained properly.

A Surefire has a wide enough beam arc that you are not necessarily covering what you are illuminating. You can also bounce the beam off the ceiling, which keeps your muzzle tilted upwards. Try it from retention, and when you see a target extend into a normal stance.

"Keeping the light on is current thought"-- according to who? Is there a debate going on somewhere? What's the useful function of a breakaway lanyard?

The photo of Suarez is his "modified Harries" which cants the gun for reasons explained in the article the image came from.