Gun myths: Kevlar "bulletproof" vests won't stop .22 LR


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1KPerDay
December 17, 2008, 12:45 PM
I was informed by a family member that this is the case. He argued until he was blue in the face. I said there's no way a modern vest won't stop a .22 LR round. He said it 'moves the fibers out of the way' and makes it through the kevlar. 9mm/.357/.40/.45 rounds will be stopped, but not .22 LR.

Anyone have some proof/videos/reports that I can show him? :banghead:

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PTK
December 17, 2008, 12:48 PM
Actually, .22lr out of a rifle will zip right through. My testing, anything over a 10" barrel will do it.

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2008, 12:52 PM
Kevlar won't stop a knife either, on it's own.

That's why you see so many vests with pockets for trauma plates. Either steel or the newer ceramic trauma plates are needed for maximum protection.

Here is a chart from Pinnacle:

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

Titan6
December 17, 2008, 12:53 PM
I guess. I think it kind depends upon the thickness of the kevlar vest. The rounds seemed to deflect well off a hardened helmet even at relatively close range. Also the age of the vest plays a role.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 12:59 PM
I tested IIa, II, and IIIa. All three, the .22lr went through when using a 10" barrel. 2" barrel, 5.5" barrel, and 7" barrel didn't do it. :)

Justin
December 17, 2008, 01:01 PM
I find that extremely hard to believe. Do you have any documentation?

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2008, 01:05 PM
Do you have any documentation?

II-A clearly won't stop it, that's in most of the ballistic charts including the one above. II is claimed to stop a 40gr FMC at 1850fps.

I do find it odd that they only show testing with the FMC bullet. Dunno if that's good or bad.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 01:10 PM
Justin

No documentation, and I have no way of knowing how old the vests were or what conditions they were stored under. All I can do is share my experience. :)

JImbothefiveth
December 17, 2008, 01:15 PM
I think bulletproofme.com sells old vests for testing(not for protection, as they are old), and they are probably pretty cheap. You could test one of those.

Polish_Pounder
December 17, 2008, 01:19 PM
Sometime in January a Park Ranger I shoot with and I are going to perform extensive testing of his old duty vest. I'll make a thread and post a bunch of pics when we do it.

-Polish

jeffsenpai
December 17, 2008, 01:25 PM
I thought this was a joke thread, wow I am amazed.

czrami9
December 17, 2008, 01:31 PM
Because of the small size of the round there is more pressure involved when it hits the vest, than say...a .45.


Pressure= Force/Area

So as the area goes down, the pressure goes up.

Think of it like this. If I stomped on Bob's foot wearing a work boot, I doubt I would go all the way through his foot. But if I did the same in high heals the possibility is much higher.

Justin
December 17, 2008, 01:35 PM
Testing vests that are worn out or old isn't going to tell you anything about the level of protection afforded a vest that is in good working order.

Same goes for testing a vest by shooting at it a bunch of times. As I understand it, vests are rated to stop a certain number of rounds, and after that, they're considered compromised, even if they will still stop a bullet.

Seenterman
December 17, 2008, 01:36 PM
LoL wow I learn something new everyday.

WAIT OHH NOZZ
we need to keep this info to ourselves. God forbid the antis learn of our new super deadly armor defeating tactical assault 10/22's!

No seriously Im amazed and a little incredulous.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 01:37 PM
Justin

Yes indeed! I never said I did a proper test, just what I experienced. The only vest I NEEDED stopped two large-ish rounds (40, 45 or something) in the back and three smaller ones (22, 25, 32 or similar) in the front. Never found out the exact caliber, never wanted to know.

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2008, 01:40 PM
God forbid the antis learn of our new super deadly armor defeating tactical assault 10/22's!


That's why the 5.7x28 took such a political beating. You will notice in the chart above that the x28 isn't stopped by anything less than what Pinnacle calls Level III-B.

MD_Willington
December 17, 2008, 01:41 PM
Well, why not have a "chip in" for a brand spanking new vest, and someone can shoot the crap out of it and post the results..?

PTK
December 17, 2008, 01:42 PM
TexasRifleman

That's with ammo no longer easily found, though not illegal. The two you can find in stores are designed to deform/fragment when hitting any resistance.

I still have some of the legal "nuclear" rounds, though. Damn things are ABSURDLY powerful.

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2008, 01:44 PM
That's with ammo no longer easily found, though not illegal. The two you can find in stores are designed to deform/fragment when hitting any resistance.


No, the Pinnacle testing includes the SS192 bullet, which is the standard hollow point. It's still for sale everywhere, and legal. SS195 replaced 192 but uses the same bullet, just lead free primer compounds, so the same could likely be said for SS195.

That's why the x28 still gets lots of bad press even after FN's change on the SS190 bullet. It's still a very lethal round against most body armor even in the "sporting" rounds out there.

But, and this is where Brady Campaign was so misleading, so are most hunting rounds out there already.

HexHead
December 17, 2008, 01:46 PM
"Actually, .22lr out of a rifle will zip right through. My testing, anything over a 10" barrel will do it."

So I'm guessing then that .22 Magnum from a revolver will zip right through then?

PTK
December 17, 2008, 01:49 PM
If round nose, not hollowpoint, it should.

General Geoff
December 17, 2008, 01:49 PM
There's no law change on the SS190. Just FN's policy of not selling or making it available to civilians.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 01:54 PM
Correct re:SS190, which is why boxes sell for over $500 nowadays. Glad I grabbed some when it was $40/box...

Justin
December 17, 2008, 01:56 PM
I have not been able to find any testing results from the National Institute of Justice showing that .22 rimfire rounds are able to penetrate a vest.

I would presume that if .22 rimfire rounds represented a threat capable of defeating a kevlar vest, the NIJ would have listed it in Table 11. Special type threats of particular concern to law enforcement, on page 72 of their Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06 document, which can be downloaded as a PDF here. (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf)

expvideo
December 17, 2008, 02:14 PM
The most common caliber used in a crime is 22lr, right? Police wear vests to protect them from gun crime, right? Something doesn't add up here. Very interesting.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 02:19 PM
Short barrels = less velocity, less velocity = less penetration. Most common .22lr pistols have shorter barrels.

Pulse
December 17, 2008, 02:28 PM
is this only for Kevlar or also for other, more mordern, materials like Dyneema or Spectra?

i am asking because i used to wear a Kevlar west and inside those vest we where preaty secure against most "proper" handgun rounds, but even a junky with a needle could punch a hole in to them, let alone if they had a Knife or Icepick.
after a while we where issued west made from Dyneema, wich not only was a tiny bit lighter and more confortable to wear, but they also claimed that Needles and most knifes could not penetrate them and even with a Icepick you would need a very high amount of force to punch a hole in to it.

Robert
December 17, 2008, 02:32 PM
When I worked as a Trooper the Second Chance rep told us that our IIIA vests would stop anything up to and including a .44 mag. Now thankfully I never had to try this out, but if it were true that a .22 would pass right on through a vest I would venture a guess that they would have mentioned this when they wanted me to buy trauma plates. At least as a selling point...

1KPerDay
December 17, 2008, 03:03 PM
Everything credible I can find says that Type I will stop .22 LR lead round nose. So I can't imagine why the 'higher' grades wouldn't.

Almost every occurrence of the following seems to be copied from the same source, I believe. Example here:
http://www.njlawman.com/Feature%20Pieces/Body%20Armor.htm


Armor Level Protects Against
Type I
(.22 LR; .380 ACP) This armor protects against .22 caliber Long Rifle Lead Round Nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less, and .380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less.


Encyclopedia > Kevlar vest
A bulletproof vest – also called body armour (U.S. body armor) – is an article of protective clothing that works as a form of armour to minimize injury from being hit by a fired bullet. They are commonly worn by police forces and the military.
The above name is somewhat of a misnomer since most such protective vests are of little or no protective value against rifles regardless of the type, style, materials or caliber of the rifle ammunition (ammo) or even against handgun caliber ammo fired from a rifle. (The exception is the common .22 LR, which can usually be stopped by these vests even when fired from a rifle.) These vests are generally protective against handgun ammo fired from handguns--again, regardless of type, style, materials or caliber of the handgun ammo.




Here’s a guy shooting 5 rounds of .22LR into a vest, followed by 9mm FMJ. None penetrate. I don't speak Dutch so I don't know if it's Kevlar or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j5AzJP0ANA



This is a 20-year-old Kevlar vest.
http://www.tarafore.net/KevlarResults.html
“There's an "urban legend" going around that a .22 bullet will go right through a bulletproof vest.
Myth busted. It didn't even penetrate the first layer of Kevlar.”
http://www.tarafore.net/Kevlar/22Rifle.jpg

“The outdated, pre-1987 manufacture Kevlar panel stopped all of the edged weapons and pistol-caliber ammunition we threw at it [INCLUDING .22 LR]. It did what it was supposed to do, better than I had anticipated. The only thing that got through that I thought would not was the M1 Carbine round. Even the outdated vest stopped the threats it was designed to stop, and more. “


This guy shot a kevlar vest with a bunch of stuff (EXCEPT the 22 LR). The 22 MAGNUM went through.

http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-3-ballistic-vest-live-fire-test.html

Geronimo45
December 17, 2008, 03:08 PM
PTK - how did you test the vest(s)? Did you set it up against a hard surface? I think NIJ testing puts the vest over jello/ballistic clay/soft stuff.

NG VI
December 17, 2008, 03:26 PM
9 mm 147 GR, Winchester Ranger +P JHP, 4.5 inch barrel 1325 ft./sec. + 50-0

Where can I get some of this 147 grain @ 1325 FPS Ranger? I'd rather have it in HST, but whatever, 147/1325 seems like a hell of a combination. Typo maybe?

I still have some of the legal "nuclear" rounds, though. Damn things are ABSURDLY powerful.

Is the SS190 really noticeably hotter than the two "sporting" rounds, and also was the bullet itself any better in terminal performance or was it just the whole soft-armor defeating thing that got it bad press?

PTK
December 17, 2008, 03:53 PM
PTK - how did you test the vest(s)? Did you set it up against a hard surface?

Wet phonebooks.

Is the SS190 really noticeably hotter than the two "sporting" rounds, and also was the bullet itself any better in terminal performance or was it just the whole soft-armor defeating thing that got it bad press?

It's hotter, better penetration (steel plate, Kevlar is a joke, etc) but WORSE than SS192LF for damage to soft tissue. It's just better at piercing.

Pulse
December 17, 2008, 03:54 PM
Here’s a guy shooting 5 rounds of .22LR into a vest, followed by 9mm FMJ. None penetrate. I don't speak Dutch so I don't know if it's Kevlar or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j5AzJP0ANA

ha!
those are the exact wests we got issued after one of the the guards got stabbed by a Junkie.
that company, Engarde, only makes Dyneema wests, wich they claim is better then Kevlar.

Wolfebyte
December 17, 2008, 04:29 PM
Level I has defeated .22 LR since the 70's... That was one of the first rounds that a "Bullet Proof" Vest was designed to defeat.

I've heard the same thing, for years, also heard that it was the 22 caliber rounds (.222, .223, 22-250, etc) that they were referring to.

The 5.56 caliber is not defeated until you get to a Level III vest.

http://www.nlectc.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/370/selectapp2001.txt

NIJ Standard-0101.04 establishes six formal armor classification types, as well as a seventh special type, as follows:

Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP). This armor protects against .22 long rifle lead round nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less, and against .380 ACP full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN), with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less.
..............

http://www.nlectc.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/1281/stnd0108.txt

Type III (High-Powered Rifle)

This armor protects against the standard test round as defined in section 5.2.5. It also provides protection against most lesser threats such as 223 Remington (5.56 mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12 gauge rifle slug,

Eagles6
December 17, 2008, 04:38 PM
I think a lot of this comes from data showing that .22 caliber bullets will defeat a vest. 22 Hornet, .223, .222 Rem, .222 Rem Mag and it was confused from there.

1KPerDay
December 17, 2008, 05:22 PM
That's what I assumed. But he was very clear that it was .22 Long Rifle rimfire rounds. Said he saw it go through.

I say he was drunk.

You will note that none of the info posted here specifically states that level I (or any above) will definitively defeat high velocity plated .22 LR rounds. Just that the kevlar vest was originally intended to defeat the most common rounds encountered by police, the .22 LR and the .38.


And I can't find anything that says that it ever actually did and does stop the .22 LR.

Some of the sources say Level I will stop .22 LR lead round nose.

Does that mean it will stop the lubricated lead rounds but possibly not the plated ones? Or should I assume that lead round nose means all variants of .22 LR since they're all essentially lead, though some are plated?
I'd appreciate any additional info anyone has.

CajunBass
December 17, 2008, 06:24 PM
I made Kevlar from 1976 until March of this year, when I retired. We had a ballistic testing lab on site. I'll have to give the boys in the lab a call and see how the poor people are doing. :neener:

I'm sure they'll get a kick out of this one.

1KPerDay
December 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. :)

CajunBass
December 17, 2008, 06:38 PM
Does that mean it will stop the lubricated lead rounds but possibly not the plated ones? Or should I assume that lead round nose means all variants of .22 LR since they're all essentially lead, though some are plated?
I'd appreciate any additional info anyone has.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "plated" 22 LR bullet. Long rifle bullets are all lead. There are copper washed bullets, but the copper washing is so thin that it can be scratched off with a fingernail. 22 Magnum bullets are jacketed the same as many other bullets.

1KPerDay
December 17, 2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I realize they are all lead. Wouldn't 'plated' describe the 'copper washed' ones? A thin "plating" of copper? Or is there a different process where some other bullets are plated?

I didn't know the .22 mags were jacketed, though... thanks. :cool:

Bad Penny 03
December 17, 2008, 09:42 PM
22lr defeat kevlar?

BS.

soft lead slug at so-so velocities.

BS

no Class II or IIa or III vest.

tsidorus
December 17, 2008, 10:02 PM
the only way I can see this as true is if someone mistook the old flackvest made of balistic nylon as a kevlar vest... And thos were never meant to stop bullets...

-Tsi

PTK
December 17, 2008, 10:06 PM
I was getting almost 1400 FPS out of CCI ammo (round nose MiniMag, I believe) when it defeated the vests of unknown quality. FWIW, anyway...

akodo
December 17, 2008, 10:07 PM
.22 40 GR, LR FMC, 22 inch barrel 1850 ft./sec. + 50-0

From the http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php that .22LR is listed under what the type II vest will stop. The list is of stuff that type II-A WON'T stop, but that type II WILL.

It makes a small amount of sense. 158 grain 357s are defeated by lower classes of vests than 125 grains, yet most 158 grains will penetrate deeper on flesh (and treelogs) and have more energy and momentum. I guess velocity is the key, which is why the 5.8 FN round works even with less energy than a 45 acp.

It would be interesting to clock exactly how fast you have to get the 22LR going before it could penetrate.

and I guess when oyu think about it, ANY bullet could penetrate a vest if you get it going fast enougn.

Firethorn
December 17, 2008, 10:13 PM
Wet phone books were probably too stiff. And/or the vests were worn/defective.

I don't see there being that big of a velocity difference in 3" of barrel.

A type 1 vest might not work against a high velocity round, at close range. They're also out of standard production. Probably partially as a result of people to trading up in round size, combined with advances in technology making better protecting vests lighter.

f4t9r
December 17, 2008, 10:25 PM
Well, why not have a "chip in" for a brand spanking new vest, and someone can shoot the crap out of it and post the results..?

I will shoot it up. Send me the vest. Could you make sure it is a XXL

fingerbanger
December 17, 2008, 10:32 PM
By this theory the mighty .17 hmr is king. All hail .17hmr "vest buster" Now the law enforcement community just got a cold chill down their spines.

PTK
December 17, 2008, 10:47 PM
Actually, if you could get a FMJ .17HMR, I'd bet it would go through a vest quite easily...

fingerbanger
December 17, 2008, 11:10 PM
You might be right about that. I have often wondered about the .17hmr. Checked out the "Box of Truth" guy and found nothing on it. but it would be neat to find out.

woodfiend
December 17, 2008, 11:20 PM
Ummm. On this website below, it shows that the "ballistic blankets" that they have will stop fragments and .22LR. I imagine a full-on kevlar vest is more protective than a "ballistic blanket".


http://bulletproofme.com/Ballistic-Blankets.shtml

Zoogster
December 17, 2008, 11:42 PM
By this theory the mighty .17 hmr is king. All hail .17hmr "vest buster" Now the law enforcement community just got a cold chill down their spines.
Yes a FMJ 17HMR has quite a bit of factors in favor of it defeating thin soft barriers.
Most rounds are designed to expand (penetrate even less) for use against rodents. In fact they are designed to practicly come apart as soon as they hit the rodent, so they would penetrate horribly.
A solid FMJ would have a lot of penetration of a thin soft barrier. A solid copper round even more (and bullets .22 and below are immune to the Federal Restriction on percentage of bullet jacket weight.)

Penetration does not equal penetration. There is many different types of penetration. Momentum penetrates some things better, and velocity penetrates other things better.
A shotgun slug will not penetrate many vests that a 5.7 (just a fast .22) will. Yet shooting something like a deer the same slug would go through one side and out the other, while the .22 would only go a few inches under the skin.

The smallest diameter and hardest round requires the least amount of energy to penetrate something like a vest. The larger the diamater or softer the round the more energy is required to defeat the barrier.

That is why an arrow or dart shape requires the least amount of energy for a level of penetration, and why something like precision designed steel flechettes have huge penetration for very little energy. They are hard steel, and the penetrating point is very small.


Consider that the FN 5.7 round from a pistol is just a .22 at speeds similar to a .22LR high or "hyper" velocity round from a rifle. In fact at 1800 FPS a hyper velocity FMJ .22 would be about the same as a FN 5.7 from a pistol.
Most 5.7 rounds from a pistol go 1500-1800 FPS from a ~5 inch pistol.

A .17HMR round goes 2300-2500 FPS from most HMR platforms, and has a peak velocity around a 18-19 inch barrel.
The .17 diameter requires less energy than the .22 diameter round to defeat a soft barrier just like explained above.

So yes the 17HMR FMJ is a soft body armor defeating round. Since most .17HMR rounds are designed for tiny rodents, the average round poses little threat with rapidly expanding bullets.

However just because a round defeats armor does not mean it will do much to the human body. A .17 or .22 inch hole in thier body (which will have no expansion) will not prevent the individual wearing body armor from drawing and returning a hail of lethal rounds. Such small holes often close up on themselves, further reducing blood loss. Without the rifle wound characteristics such a small diameter wound channel will not likely incapacitate.
So a .17 or .22 would only be effective against body armor from a full auto firearm.
The 5.7 rounds are designed to partialy compensate for what would be horrible terminal performance by bending and flipping in tissue. They only achieve that some of the time with the LEO only rounds.


So defeating armor does not mean the round becomes deadly against those wearing armor. It just means it enters thier body, and does so after losing a good deal of energy defeating the vest. A well trained individual should then be able to return fire with such moderate wounds. They may or may not survive the wounds, but that will usualy be decided long after the gunfight is over and hey have had ample time to return fire.

Zoogster
December 17, 2008, 11:47 PM
You might be right about that. I have often wondered about the .17hmr. Checked out the "Box of Truth" guy and found nothing on it. but it would be neat to find out.
The box o truth usualy tests penetration in water, walls or other media. A thin soft vest tightly woven is a different type of penetration than a water jug requires.

A 5.7 for example has very limited penetration in tissue and similar things like water. Yet it defeates some levels of soft body armor.
A standard foster shotgun slug would go through numerous jugs, walls etc but would be defeated by the same armor (though it might still kill through blunt trauma transfer.)

One type of penetration does not equal another type of penetration.

Big Boomer
December 18, 2008, 02:05 AM
and bullets .22 and below are immune to the Federal Restriction on percentage of bullet jacket weight.)


Come again? What federal restriction?

Zoogster
December 18, 2008, 02:51 AM
Come again? What federal restriction?
This part of 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17)

(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The ATF has currently decided that it covers all rounds chambered in any handguns. That would appear to be incorrect as the statute says "designed and intended" but it is thier definition and what they enforce regardless. So essentialy all cartridges except those exempted chambered in any commercial handguns are included in the restrictions.
So every round chambered in any handgun, whether in a single shot thompson contender (which makes the law cover most rifle rounds) or anything else falls under these restrictions according to the ATF interpretation.

So only rounds that are not larger than .22 may legaly have jacket weights that exceed 25% of thier total weight.
Lead is soft, and jacket material must be fairly thick to resist rapid deformation. So a thick jacket made of hard material in front allows a round to penetrate thin barriers better. The softer the round the quicker it deforms. The quicker it deforms the worse it defeats thin barriers.

Think of it like your fist. Make a very loose fist and punch your other hand. Now with the same amount of force repeat with a tightly closed fist.
The loose fist deforms quicker, doing less damage even with the same amount of force.
The same happens with a bullet during penetration. Even though lead has more mass, giving more energy, it deforms rapidly on contact. So the forward energy and momentum is greater, but the actual application of that energy is different.
Also as it expands it inceases diameter, and the larger the diameter the more energy is required for the same level of penetration.
Since lead still has the best mass of a cheap material, the ideal penetrating round is one that has a very hard material for penetration in front, yet the BC benefits of lead.
Or more simply, a round with a very thick hard jacket material.
( Most actual AP rounds of course just use a sub-caliber penetrating rod, but that of course has even worse ballistic wounding potential because it has even less diameter which also means it needs less energy to penetrate.)
Since most soft body armor works by spreading the energy over a wider area, a softer bullet that can be deformed helps the armor defeat it. A hard bullet, or even a sharp bullet concentrates its energy on a single spot and is harder for the material to spread the energy to a wider area before it is defeated.

In fact it is really no different than why a sharp knife of a hard material cuts better than a dull knife of a soft material. A knife edge is simply a wedge. The sharper the knife the more of the energy is applied to a smaller surface, wedging apart or "cutting" the material being cut better.
The harder the material the better it holds and uses that edge, resisting deformation (or dulling.)
The same principles, just at a much faster rate apply.
In ballistics though mass is also very important, making heavier hard materials preferable to lighter hard materials.
Things like hardened tungsten become more ideal than steel because of that mass resulting in a better BC.

WardenWolf
December 18, 2008, 04:11 AM
The reason a .22 is dangerous to a vest is because it exerts a large amount of force in a very small area. Effectively it is concentrating its force on only a few fibers of the vest rather than spreading out and applying it to many. That being said, any high-power rifle round is going to pretty much blow right through a vest. Even the army's best Interceptor armor is only rated up to 7.62x54R (30-06 equivalent, except steel core which means greater penetration), and many modern cartridges far exceed that. 7mm Remington Magnum, .300 Win. Mag., the list goes on.

Big Boomer
December 18, 2008, 10:29 AM
So what about these "all copper" rounds from Barnes used in the 500 and 460 and many other calibers like the 45 and 357's?

How about a 45-70 in a BFR using some of the Solids that are available out there? Or even a contender in one of the large caliber rifle rounds with the same type of bullets?

What about a 30-06 with AP rounds out of the same? The list goes on...

So are these rounds typically "illegal" now because of their ability to be fired in a handgun?

TEDDY
December 18, 2008, 01:52 PM
Boomer you did not read it it said pistol rds.any rifle round will penetrate.:rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
December 18, 2008, 01:54 PM
It also specifically excludes .30-06 AP ammo, by name.

The whole law has a long list of exclusions.

Polish_Pounder
December 18, 2008, 02:13 PM
When the LE Park Rangers were trying out their current vests, they put several on logs and put water jugs behind them. A 1 ounce slug knocked the log over, but did not penetrate. Their issue 180 .40 S&W Hydra-shocks didn't penetrate. The .223 went right through and the log barely moved. I'm not sure what the rating on that vest would be, but he said it is about like a heavy sweater.

-Polish

1KPerDay
December 18, 2008, 02:33 PM
Well I sent him all the info I found and he insists that it's flawed.

He also said that the copper-washed or "plated" .22 LR rounds would go through.

He won't listen to reason... he apparently had watched some test in person. I asked him how the test was actually performed... was the Kevlar in a finished vest or just loose sheets? What was the material behind it, etc.?

No clear answers yet.

lanternlad1
December 18, 2008, 02:46 PM
I'd rather have 5.2x28.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2015539

Double Naught Spy
December 18, 2008, 02:58 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289966&highlight=ballistic+wheel&page=2

See post#42 It has a nice graphic of what will be stopped by IIa, II, and IIIa vests and at what velocities.

Dravur
December 18, 2008, 03:09 PM
Wasn't there a guy who sold vests who would shoot himself with a .22?

I seem to remember seeing a video of it.

benEzra
December 18, 2008, 03:12 PM
No documentation, and I have no way of knowing how old the vests were or what conditions they were stored under. All I can do is share my experience.
They could also have been milsurp flak jackets, which a lot of people seem to think are "bulletproof vests" but aren't. I'm sure .22LR will go through a flak jacket.

woodfiend
December 18, 2008, 03:19 PM
I'd rather have 5.2x28.


Just for correction, it's 5.7x28

PTK
December 18, 2008, 03:29 PM
They could also have been milsurp flak jackets

2004ish Safariland IIa, II, and IIIa vests. Not flak jackets.

1KPerDay
December 18, 2008, 05:49 PM
Wasn't there a guy who sold vests who would shoot himself with a .22?

I seem to remember seeing a video of it.
It was a .357. The first guy who popularized vests with the police. Huge brass ones hangin'.

22lr
December 18, 2008, 05:56 PM
Kevlar-maybe, plate-nope. But again my pet peeve, nothing is bulletproof there is always something that will go though it.

Gunnerpalace
December 18, 2008, 05:58 PM
average round poses little threat

I still don't want to be shot with anything,

Bullets put holes in stuff, put a hole if the right place, you die.

Stopping isn't everything either, BFT, while a 500S&W might not "bust" a vest the Blunt Force Trauma, could still cause internal bleeding leading to death.

Wanted to add my .05

1KPerDay
December 18, 2008, 05:59 PM
Hence the quote marks around "bulletproof." :)

DoubleTapDrew
December 18, 2008, 07:04 PM
Wasn't there a guy who sold vests who would shoot himself with a .22?

I seem to remember seeing a video of it.
Richard Davis, founder of Second Chance body armor. I think he usually used handguns that were issue by whatever dept. he was demonstrating for. The NIJ said his lightweight zylon vests didn't meet their standards and thus wouldn't give them a rating so this was his way of saying "oh really??"
Velocity is king. That's why itty bitty 55gr bullets going 3000fps will zip right through vests that will stop 230gr bullets going 900fps.

benEzra
December 18, 2008, 09:08 PM
I'd rather have 5.2x28.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2015539
Be aware that 5.7x28mm won't penetrate any vest rated to stop .357, given equivalent ammo.

All non-restricted 5.7x28mm and .357 loads are stopped by IIIA and most are stopped by II. Restricted police/military only loads (both 5.7x28 and .357) will penetrate II and IIIA, but not III.

2004ish Safariland IIa, II, and IIIa vests. Not flak jackets.
Do you know the testing protocol? You have to have a backstop of the right firmness or else the Kevlar gets pinched and cut. People are soft, and the vests are designed with that in mind; wrap a II or IIIA vest around a landscape timber instead of clay, for example, and you can get loads to penetrate that would never penetrate if the vest were being worn by a person.

That is one reason the NIJ specifies the testing protocols so closely, because the backing has to approximate the resistance of a person wearing it for the results to be valid.

Double Naught Spy
December 19, 2008, 12:52 AM
Okay, I took out an old Aramid IIIa panel I had to use for today's test. Yes, it isn't a Kevlar panel, but I could not find any useful kevlar panels in the pile. This will have to suffice. It is 10+ years old - was part of an officer's vest for at least 5 years, sat in a garage for at least 3 years, and I have had it for 2 years. I have also used it in 10 other shooting tests in areas other than the quadrant in which I was shooting today.

I fired three .22 lr hypervelocity rounds into it from a distance of less than 1 foot from a Chipmunk bolt action rifle with a 16" barrel. The impacts were roughly 2" apart. As seen on the reverse side of the impact area, none of the rounds went through the panel. While I did not have the clay that NIJ uses for a backing, I did use a pile of rain-soaked dirt that was firm enough to walk on, but that I could push my finger into - in short, it had a high clay content.

1KPerDay
December 19, 2008, 02:54 AM
Cool! Thanks. :cool: Hopefully someone will track down a kevlar vest they don't mind shooting for us. :)

beatcop
December 19, 2008, 04:04 AM
I think it's safe to say this myth is busted....

Zoogster
December 19, 2008, 09:21 AM
Looking at the CCI website all thier hyper velocity rounds are hollowpoints and actualy only rated around 1400FPS. (I had been thinking of the .22 magnum at 1800FPS.)

The only rounds with even a bullet really suitable for the test from CCI are the 22 magnum TMJ and the 17HMR TMJ.

Further they should only potentialy pierce IIa not IIIa. Armor rated to defeat the 9mm FMJ from pistols, and soft lead .357 rounds.
So the level of penetration in IIA by certain small caliber FMJ rounds would surprise many, as such rounds are significantly lower in power than other rounds stopped by the vest.

Of course a HP .22LR is not going to outperform a 5.7 FMJ when not even going as fast. The civilian 5.7 rounds are not even rated to defeat IIIa



Now if you wanted to surprise yourself a little with slightly more penetration and stuck a hardened rod of sharpened metal in the hollowpoint...but don't do that, you cannot manufacture AP rounds.


No the .22LR is not magicly going to jump several levels of ballistic protection.
A IIA vest and high velocity non HP are necessary to even test the myth.


The smaller caliber rounds have less frontal surface area and if hard enough to resist deformation have a higher level of penetration than many would assume for thier energy. Enabling them to defeat barriers which defeat more powerful wider diameter rounds.
They are not magical and able to escape the laws of physics.

Double Naught Spy
December 19, 2008, 12:41 PM
Well Zoogster, it is what I had on hand. However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen. The vest ratings are by stopping capabilities, not material of manufacture.

The OP claim was that .22 lr would pass through a Level II vest (not stated, but from the calibers listed that is the claim at least for the lowest rated vest that will stop those).

Since a Level I vest will stop it, Level IIa won't have a problem.
http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Clothing/bulletproof_vests.htm (NIJ Standard 0101.04)

PTK
December 19, 2008, 01:03 PM
The civilian 5.7 rounds are not even rated to defeat IIIa

SS192LF will, it seems... right off Pinnacle's test chart, they had to make a better vest to stop it.

However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen.

It DID happen, but the vests were of unknown quality. All I know is that I bought one each IIa, II, and IIIa Safariland vests made in 2004, and that I bought them specifically for testing. :)

1KPerDay
December 19, 2008, 01:33 PM
I think it's safe to say this myth is busted....
Based on what? I would like to see someone here actually shoot a 22LR copper washed round nose into a kevlar level 1 vest. Or any kevlar vest.

There probably isn't any evidence because people assume that if the larger rounds won't penetrate, the .22 LR obviously won't. But that doesn't make for difinitive evidence in my book.

Double Naught Spy
December 19, 2008, 06:32 PM
1KPerDay, the original claim was for a Level II vest, not level I.

Given the number of bad guys that use .22 lr and the number of cops shot with .22 lr, I can't find documented any where the vest failed to stop the round. Can you?

Maybe you would like to add .22 lr, copper washed, and teflon coated to the mix?

PTK
December 19, 2008, 06:48 PM
Teflon coating does nothing to defeat vests. :)

Also, the number of bad guys that use .22lr, are using PISTOLS, not rifles.

.455_Hunter
December 19, 2008, 06:52 PM
Actually, if you could get a FMJ .17HMR, I'd bet it would go through a vest quite easily...

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=479224 :)

benEzra
December 19, 2008, 08:07 PM
SS192LF will, it seems... right off Pinnacle's test chart, they had to make a better vest to stop it.
The BATFE says SS192 will not penetrate NIJ IIIA. I would suggest that if Pinnacle's vests were failing against SS192, then they needed to redesign their vests anyway, as the vests were not up to industry standard.

But so far I have seen no credible evidence that SS192 actually penetrates any IIIA using NIJ test protocols, just anecdotes, and people on the Internet shooting vests using landscape timbers and phone books as backing materials. Oh, and the Brady Campaign video of 5.7x28mm penetrating NIJ IIA vest and pretending that's something a .357 won't do.

If I get to specify the backing material, I can probably make .22LR penetrate NIJ II and .357 penetrate IIIA.

It should be noted that SS196 will not penetrate NIJ Level II, and SS192 is no longer imported for non-LEO civilian use.

However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen.
It DID happen, but the vests were of unknown quality. All I know is that I bought one each IIa, II, and IIIa Safariland vests made in 2004, and that I bought them specifically for testing.
What was the backing material, and how was it prepared? (Forgive me if you already answered that upthread; I may have missed it.)

TexasRifleman
December 19, 2008, 08:24 PM
SS192 is no longer imported for non-LEO civilian use.


SS195 uses the same bullet at the same velocities, but with a lead free primer compound. There are still tons of SS192 for sale. Production of the round has been totally discontinued, LEO or civilian.

PTK
December 19, 2008, 10:03 PM
What was the backing material, and how was it prepared?

Wet phonebooks, but the real issue is that the vests were of unknown quality re: storage conditions. :)

1KPerDay
December 20, 2008, 02:34 AM
I can't find documented any where the vest failed to stop the round. Can you?
Nope... I can't seem to find any evidence either way. Either it's so obvious that the vests stop 22LR that nobody bothers to mention it, or nobody cares.

what original claim were you referring to, BTW?

NeoSpud
December 20, 2008, 03:28 AM
how about this?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm

Double Naught Spy
December 20, 2008, 08:40 AM
Also, the number of bad guys that use .22lr, are using PISTOLS, not rifles.
Yes, but some do use rifles and do shoot cops.
http://52.128.225.198/SurvivorClub/GetStory?OfficerID=118

what original claim were you referring to, BTW?

The claim made in the original post...
I was informed by a family member that this is the case. He argued until he was blue in the face. I said there's no way a modern vest won't stop a .22 LR round. He said it 'moves the fibers out of the way' and makes it through the kevlar. 9mm/.357/.40/.45 rounds will be stopped, but not .22 LR.

starboard
December 21, 2008, 05:49 AM
The 22LR has low energy, unimpressive sectional density, and easily deformed bullets. A celebration is called for when the bloody thing penetrates a leather jacket, so perhaps vest manufacturers don't even list 22LR on their charts as the whole notion is ridiculous.

ericyp
December 21, 2008, 08:46 AM
Thankfully, we have idiots to answer this question for us! .22 vs bullet proof vest on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_4U2x1c7oU

Jefferson Herb
December 21, 2008, 12:13 PM
Small dia,and high velocity makes for a bad day,I've never tried any tests but a national guard member had an old vest and it's interesting what will go thru.

1KPerDay
December 22, 2008, 01:07 PM
Thanks neospud... that's a kevlar vest, right?

Double Naught Spy
December 22, 2008, 03:03 PM
Actually, we don't know if it is kevlar or not. We don't know if a rifle was used or not (or rather, I didn't find it in the text that a rifle was used). Given that the rests of the tests were done with pistols, I would be surprised if the .22 was fired with a rifle. In fact, they say,
Next test, we will shoot Shotguns and Rifles. Stand by.

Also, I was surprised to see the armor called "Level II armour" and "fragmentation armour" and to see it wasn't designed for bullets. So it certainly isn't what we would call Level II ballistic armor.

NeoSpud
December 22, 2008, 04:46 PM
DNS- It's a VietNam era M1969 anti-fragmentation vest, made from "ballistic nylon" (not Kevlar). Its successor, the PASGT, was kevlar. I don't think either were ever NIJ rated, either, as their intended purpose was as fragmentation protection vests.

The point I intended to make was this: if a surplus condition, likely ~30 year old, non-kevlar (weaker fiber) vest not even intended to stop bullets in the first place can STILL stop a .22, then current-production kevlar body armor would be expected to do it as well. It would be really ironic if it couldn't. I'm not closed minded to the thought, though. :)

I agree that the .22 was likely from a pistol, as the author has on several tests been pictured using a stainless Ruger Mark II (or III). How much of a difference in energy would the five inches of barrel between the Ruger and 10" setup PTK mentioned make? I don't doubt that there is a significant difference, but I have to question whether it would be enough to defeat actual body armor. For the link from post #3 (TexasRifleman's link to Pinnacle's ballistic chart), you can see that II is rated to take 40 grain .22 from a 22 inch barrel. That leads me to seriously question the assertion that a .22 from a 10" barrel would be so exponentially faster than from a 5" barrel that it could do what a 22" barrel should not and pierce level II armor.

That chart TR posted:
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

More importantly, did PTK use a backstop to mimic the human body that would be behind the vest? I own a PASGT vest and have shot it with my Ruger. Wrapped around a stump, it stopped the bullet. If hanging from a line by the shoulder straps, it punches right through. Admittedly, I was using a pistol when I did that, but I'll do it again with a 10/22 if that'll help this discussion.

1KPerDay
December 22, 2008, 07:28 PM
That would be very cool...

I'd like to see detailed pics and a report of several types of .22LR out of pistols and rifles, if you have the time.

NeoSpud
December 22, 2008, 07:47 PM
1KPerDay - What varieties of .22 ammo would you like to see? I have a few boxes of Remington Thunderbolt on hand (not great stuff, but it goes bang more frequently than not), and I've been meaning to go to the store, so now I have the impetus. I think a shot each of Federal, Remington, and CCI (blazers) from both a Ruger Mark II and 10/22 would be a decent impromptu design, though I don't own a chrony so I can't confirm velocities... it would be an OK test, but definitely not for the peer reviewed journals. I suppose y'all will be enough of a peer review for a modest guy like myself ;)

I'd have to pick up another PASGT vest or two as well, I suppose, but luckily I know a guy who'll probably sell me two (he has 5 or 6, at last count). As long as he doesn't try to rip me off, I wouldn't mind adding a bit to this discussion.

1KPerDay
December 22, 2008, 10:13 PM
I dunno... round nose, copper washed seemed to be the 'one' according to my guy. The higher velocity the better, I guess.

If standard high-velocity rounds don't make it through, CCI stingers or velocitors would be good.

:cool:

Double Naught Spy
December 23, 2008, 08:53 AM
Does it have to be "kevlar" or just body armor? Is the claim being made that "kevlar" is somehow significantly different or likely to fail than other materials?

I ask because a lot of folks use words like "kevlar" and "armor" without really realizing that they are not talking about the exact same things...sort of like calling any sort of soda a "coke" or any adjustable wrench a "crescent wrench."

NeoSpud
December 23, 2008, 12:08 PM
That's a good question, DNS. 1KPerDay did explicitly say "kevlar" in his opening statement. I'll wait for him to clarify.

I just cannot imagine any reason why Kevlar would be susceptible to .22 LR penetration if "ballistic nylon" is not. I'm not a materials engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I do have some grasp of Kevlar's structure.

1KPerDay
December 23, 2008, 08:16 PM
For my purposes it would have to be kevlar. The actual Kevlar sheets were supposedly used in this guy's tests, according to some BS protocol or other, and failed.

Double Naught Spy
December 23, 2008, 09:28 PM
:( Yep, no more plain jane kevlar panels in my stores.

Apple a Day
December 23, 2008, 11:49 PM
How much of a difference in energy would the five inches of barrel between the Ruger and 10" setup PTK mentioned make?

Anecdotal:
I posted a test here some time ago about stopping bullets with books. I shot stacked&taped books with a 6" Ruger MkII and a 16" Davey Crickett. The 16" barrel gave me almost twice the penetration than the 6".
Not through Kevlar
Not against a human body
just dry paper wrapped in cardboard covers and duct taped together
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=300334&highlight=books

Take it for what it's worth.

I also have anecdotal evidence from a sheriff's deputy who used to work in my building. The only time he ever got shot on duty was by a guy with a .22 rifle while he was low crawling through a cemetary. He was crawling because he was using the headstones as cover. The bullet hit him in the back/shoulder, apparently through the vest. Not sure what kind of vest and if it managed to get through the gap or went through the material.

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