[fourdollarbill]

What is the proper way to load a basic .358" Hollow Base Wad Cutter in a 38spl?
Full length resize first or resize after the bullet set??? Flush or High seat. OAL ??
Using 2.8gr of Bullseye with cci500
I just read a story and it involved full length resizing after crimping ??? Anybody else do it this way ???

[Dean Williams]

I've shot many thousands of this round in match shooting. My load was almost the same as yours, (2.7-3.0 gr Bullseye and a 148 HBWC).

Full length resize.
Bell the mouth and reprime, (I used CCI or WW small pistol with the same results).
Charge powder.
Seat bullet, flush with a light crimp.
There is usually a small "button" sticking up in the middle of the slug, which ends up above the case mouth, but the actual max diameter of the lead is inside the case mouth.
I used a light crimp, which seemed to help with case life. Some guys I knew used a heavier crimp that rolled hard into the front surface of the bullet.

I don't remember the OAL of these rounds. I have it in my records somewhere, but will have to dig for it if you need it.

[rcmodel]

or resize after the bullet set???Never, ever, resize any load after the bullet is in the case.
To do so will squeeze the bullet under-size by several thousandths of an inch.

HBWC can be seated flush with the case mouth, or protruding slightly, or protruding as much as 1/8".

Some feel that is a better method for revolvers, because it gets part of the full diameter bullet centered in the cylinder throats a little more precisely.

rcmodel

[fourdollarbill]

Have you ever heard of FLResize after setting the bullet? I have not and I thought it was a new accuracy trick... I'll post the short clip.

Here is a clip from the site talking about a remington .358 HBWC...
For best accuracy do not full length resize fired brass, but decap using a universal decapper, inside mouth deburr, flare and prime with a "soft" primer such as Remington 1-1/2. The bullet base is .362 diameter and is a snug fit in unsized brass. Seat bullets flush and full length resize loaded rounds to ensure easy chambering by using the Lee Factory crimp die or Redding profile die. Use only enough taper crimp to remove all mouth flare. Excessive crimp or forcing a soft bullet base into a too-tight case neck is what destroys accuracy. Properly loaded these bullets will consistently shoot 1-1/2" six-shot groups at 50 yards consistently

[rcmodel]

That's crazy talk there!

I don't know where he is getting .362" HBWC bullets either.

If there is any validity to this, it is because he says to full-length size using a Lee FCD or Redding profile die.

That is not nearly the same thing as resizing with a FL sizing die.

rcmodel

[fourdollarbill]

Apparently that kind of info could really mess up a "revolver noobie" like myself. Thanks you guys for setting it straight.

[Canuck-IL]

Have you ever heard of FLResize after setting the bullet?
That was probably a reference to a Lee FCD - Factory Crimp Die...available in just about all calibers, they tend to start a flame war akin to 9mm vs 45.

Essentially, the die is used to 'post-size' a finished round - some folks use it to mash down 'Glock bulge' when a round won't pass a gauge. In general, if your rounds chamber easily or fit a gauge, there's no reason to use an FCD.

Overcrimping will actually reduce neck tension and as noted above, super-crimping will mess with the bullet diameter.
/Bryan

[fourdollarbill]

can you use a lee factory crimp on these HBWC 148's as the last die??
I was advised that you should just use a roll crimp only...

[Remo-99]

I just read a story and it involved full length resizing after crimping ??? Anybody else do it this way ???

Also removing a loaded round safely from a full length sizing die might prove to be a little tricky, if ya managed somehow, to get it stuck.

[Steve C]

The standard full length sizing die brings the case diameter below the its maximum allowable dimensions, the expander and belling plug expands the top portion of the case to proper inside diameter to accept the bullet and provide enough tension to hold it as well as belling the case mouth to help in seating the bullet. If you where to seat the bullet prior to sizing and expanding the ID of the case would be too large and wouldn't hold the bullet with proper tension. If you size after seating the bullet you would reduce the bullet diameter below acceptable levels.

The Lee Factory crimp die for handgun ammo has a post sizing ring of maximum allowable factory diameter under SAAMI standard for the cartridge as well as a roll or taper crimp sleeve that will not reduce the case below minimum factory dimensions, so you can not over crimp. If the case is properly loaded with the standard dies the factory crimp die's post sizing will not contact the case or reduce it in diameter, however if for what ever reason any of the case dimensions exceed the factory SAAMI maximum allowable dimensions it will size those portions of the case to conform. Generally when it does post sizing it is due to bulging of the case when expanding, belling or seating the bullet, using an oversize bullet, or failure to completely size the case with the standard die. The Lee factory crimp dies is not and cannot be used as a replacement for the standard sizing die. This apples only to handgun calibers using 3 standard dies. The Lee FC die for rifles does not post size but does crimp using a collet rather than the typical crimp taper of a seating die.

[Iron Sight]

"I don't know where he is getting .362" HBWC bullets either."

I just got 1000 Remington 148 G Lead HBWC. Midway product no 767744

Micrometer says .360 at the base. .358 at the top.

Loaded a couple dummy's in re-sized 38 special brass (Hornady Crimp Die) and they drop cleanly in my Dillon case gauge. 0AL 1.180

[fourdollarbill]

I like rcmodels info up a few posts:

"HBWC can be seated flush with the case mouth, or protruding slightly, or protruding as much as 1/8".
Some feel that is a better method for revolvers, because it gets part of the full diameter bullet centered in the cylinder throats a little more precisely."

Loaded some last night to try. I used a Hornady 148 HBWC with 3gr's of bullseye. 10 flush with crimp, 10 slightly over with a slight crimp and 10 1/8th" out with a slight crimp. I'm going to shoot them after work. Did I say " Revolvers are a blast" I have not shot my auto's since. Might even have to sell them off...

[Bruce H.]

Please let us know if you see a difference in accuracy based upon the seating depth. I have alway shot HBWC seated flush with the end of the case. Everything that I have read indicated that that was the most accurate way to load them.

[rcmodel]

Back in the day, HBWC was factory loaded flush with the case mouth, among other reasons, so they would work in the Model 52 S&W & Colt 1911 conversion Match pistols.

BBWC & DEWC was factory loaded further out for use in revolvers only.

If you look at a Speer #13 manual, they show their HBWC loaded to the case mouth, and their BBWC loaded to 1.295" OAL, crimped in the crimp groove.
That leaves .150" bullet sticking out.

Either way works fine with HBWC far as I was ever able to tell.

The only caution I can think of is don't do it with very light starting loads. The increased case capacity from long seating HBWC will result in lower pressure then you already have to start with.

rcmodel

[GooseGestapo]

FWIW;
I crimp my 148gr DEWC with a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. When doing some testing a number of years back, I found that seating the bullet with 0.10" of protruding bullet and crimping with taper crimp I could inprove my groups by .5" at 50yds from a Ransome rest.

That was a difference of 1.9" to 1.4", a significant improvement.

I was using Precision Delta wadcutters and OFB Precison Delta brass (Starline mfg.), and using 2.9gr of Win231 fired by a Federal 100 primer.

Revolver was a modified M10 with a Barnett/Douglas barrel.

[rcmodel]

That sounds about like the same Ransom Rest long-seating results I found years ago with K-38 match guns.

rcmodel

[Gewehr98]

Then roll-crimp over the top of the bullet.

I have to, in order to keep my S&W Model 52 autoloader running smoothly. ;)

[TEDDY]

I loaded for compitition and loaded with bullet out 1/16.some cast WC have crimp grove about 1/8 out .The 52 S&W has to seat flush or it binds in the mag.some times the bullet gets pushed in the case roll crimping.maybe lees factoy crimp would eliminate that.2,8 of bullseye seem to be minumum to load so volume won't matter.I have both a mod 52 and a mod 10 bull with Bomar rib.:D

[fourdollarbill]

BruceH, I shot those rounds off from a sand bag and I don't think there was much difference in the accuracy. If I had a micrometer I would say the loads that were 1/8" out and crimped shot a tighter group. I did notice the brass had less damage to it -vs- the roll crimp. The brass with the WC's sticking out a litlle will definatly last longer.

[Jefferson Herb]

Load bullet flush and backwards for home defense ammo.