Are Polymer CZ pistols any good


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tblt
December 18, 2008, 07:52 PM
Anyone have a CZ rami with a polymer frame.I was looking at the polymer and alloy models and found a polymer w/ss slide I really liked.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_82/products_id/200031

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atblis
December 19, 2008, 11:46 AM
So far the reports have been good as far as function is concerned.

Treo
December 19, 2008, 12:51 PM
Dude, It's a CZ
That's like the grey poupon of guns :D

Zundfolge
December 19, 2008, 01:10 PM
I'm now picturing sitting at a stop light and a Rolls Royce rolls up, the window rolls down and some guy in an upper class British accent says "Pardon me, would you have any See-Zed?"

:neener:

Marcus L.
December 19, 2008, 01:18 PM
Kent O'Reily of the Miami PD was shooting a polymer CZ(not sure which model) during a course of fire at the USCG range in Florida recently and his frame rails snapped on him. He also said that several other officers were having problems with their polymer versions as well. It seems the polymer frames are not quite as durable as the metal alloy models. The classic 75b with steel frame seems to still be the best overall CZ model.

As for CZs being super guns, be careful of internet hype:

1993 FBI pistol trials:
-14 models of pistols tested(5 of each)
-The FBI did not accept pistols for testing from the manufacturer. They purchased pistols from the market to ensure fair testing.
-All pistols were tested for reliability, durability, service life, and consistancy when exposed to expected service conditions.
-Pistols that passed were those made by Glock and Sig. Pistols that failed were those made by S&W, Ruger, Colt, CZ, FN, Browning, Beretta, Tangfoglio, H&K, Steyr, and a few others.

2002 Department of Homeland Security pistol trials:
-43 models of pistols were tested(5 of each model)
-The DHS did not accept pistols for testing from the manufacturer. They purchased pistols from the market to ensure fair testing.
-FBI testing protocols were used.
-Pistols made by Sig and H&K passed. Beretta pulled out early. CZs were also in the testing and failed.

2005 Department of Defense pistol Trials:
-28 models of pistols were tested(5 of each model)
-The DOD did not accept pistols for testing from the manufacturer. They purchased pistols from the market to ensure fair testing.
-FBI testing protocols were followed in addition to some extreme dust testing.
-Only pistols made by Sig passed. Beretta pulled out early again. CZs were once again tested and failed.


Recently, I talked to a Federal instructor at FLETC who had more information on the NATO testing in which the CZ P-01 passed. The testing only went to 15k rounds, the manufacturer was allowed to replace springs as often as every 1000rds, and broken parts did not result in a failing score if the pistol could be back in service without replacing the barrel, slide, or frame. Also, the pistols that were tested were submitted to NATO by the manufacturers.

CZs are pretty good guns. I still enjoy shooting my old 75b and will likely never sell it, but lets keep an element of reality here. That's the beauty of US police and military testing. It really weeds out fact from fiction, and gives the civilian consumer a way to determine which company is pulling their leg and which isn't.

dobrzemetal
December 19, 2008, 01:40 PM
Hey marcus, where are you getting your sources of information on the testing of cz pistols?

gilfo
December 19, 2008, 01:52 PM
I have a Rami poly. Have about 1000 rd down range w/o any problems. I love it. Replaced a pos Kahr PM9.

armoredman
December 19, 2008, 02:24 PM
Haven't shot a poly CZ yet, will let you know as soon as I managed to aquire a P07. :)

Marcus L.
December 19, 2008, 05:01 PM
dobrzemetal,

I get mine from the law enforcement training materials which are made available from either FLETC(Federal Law Enforcement Training Center), or at the Fed academy in Quantico. Just about anyone in Federal service can get ahold of archived training briefs such as equipment procurement standards which also include information on the pistol trials results. I haven't been able to get ahold of the full FBI trials which is over 1500 pages long, just a 30 page summation. So, I don't have the details as to why the CZs failed. It might be something as minor as inconsistant accuracy during the dust test. The circular internal locking lugs of the 1911/CZ 75 "drain" sand poorly which results in either malfunction, poor groupings, or excessive lug wear. Probably why CZ is going with the newer Sig style square locking lug which works with the open breech in the P-07. I'm interested in trying out a P-07 myself.

skers69
December 19, 2008, 07:01 PM
What guns were used in the testing you are quoting Marcus L?

Marcus L.
December 19, 2008, 07:26 PM
In the 1993 FBI test the CZ used was the 75b 9mm. In the DHS testing it was once again the 75b 9mm. In the DOD testing it was the 75b and P-01 9mm.

the foot
December 19, 2008, 08:16 PM
Polymer? are you talking about the polymer coating on the metal frame?

The Lone Haranguer
December 19, 2008, 10:08 PM
On the guns being discussed here, the entire frame is polymer.

I've only handled - not fired - a couple of polymer models, a 2075 RAMI manual safety and a CZ100. I personally did not like the shape and location of the RAMI's safety levers, but that has nothing to do with its being poly. The 100 was a bit offbeat but quite intriguing.

ids555
December 19, 2008, 11:49 PM
I have a CZ110 manufactured date is 01 so it is 8yrs old by now. When I purchased it in 2003 I just fired tru it around 1000 rds. no failures what so ever. When I was relocated in other in other area in our country, I left the gun to my bro who stored it with out properly oiling it for preservation. It is almost 3 years when I was able to put the gun back in my hands again, but it was rusted inside out. After cleaning the poly frame and its inside parts, which was really rusted, have barrel and the slide hard chromed to restore its beauty and functionality. Now it is my daily carry gun, for about a year with 2000 rds like before with any major malfunction. Have fired +P ammo, factory and mostly cheap reloaded ammo and was able to experienced a 9mm ammo went BANG inside the chamber, which rattled the gun in my hand that it really hurt me. The ammo had a blast hole at the side near its base. That is one thing that is dangerous firing with cheap reloaded ammo, this happened when I was testing the gun after I restored it back from its rustiness.

in the CZ forum in CZ100 series thread there where issues of a part (trigger mechanism housing) that broke after 20k rounds, it is a CZ100. But as for the poly frame it self, there was no issues about it.

Just my experience whit CZ polymer gun.:)

atblis
December 20, 2008, 09:41 AM
Probably why CZ is going with the newer Sig style square locking lug which works with the open breech in the P-07
Actually the square barrel lockup thing isn't new to CZ.

I also suspect that the main motivation for that type of lockup is that it's easier to machine. Equate that with lower costs. It may have some other advantages, but anytime a manufacturer does anything your first assumption should be cost reduction.

tblt
December 20, 2008, 09:48 AM
All new things have problems

Old Navy
December 20, 2008, 08:38 PM
Why get a CZ in polymer? The regular steel version is only an ounce or so heavier.

tipoc
December 20, 2008, 08:45 PM
From Marcus L...
I haven't been able to get ahold of the full FBI trials which is over 1500 pages long, just a 30 page summation. So, I don't have the details as to why the CZs failed. It might be something as minor as inconsistant accuracy during the dust test.

The information provided is interesting but, as he says to his credit, without knowing what the criteria for the tests were, what guns were tested, how they were tested, etc. it's hard to draw any conclusions from the results other than that some guns were chosen by some agencies and passed over by others.

It's difficult to draw any general conclusions from the results alone.

The OP may want to drop by the CZ forum and take a peek there...

http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php


tipoc

hags
December 20, 2008, 09:24 PM
The information provided is interesting but, as he says to his credit, without knowing what the criteria for the tests were, what guns were tested, how they were tested, etc. it's hard to draw any conclusions from the results other than that some guns were chosen by some agencies and passed over by others.

It's difficult to draw any general conclusions from the results alone.

Come on, all things being equal.
The criteria was that the guns go boom when you pull the trigger after being exposed to a host of conditions found in the field.
The guns that were chosen were chosen for a reason and that reason is/was that they performed in excess of the "criteria" set forth in the testing.
The conclusions you can draw are that the guns that were chosen bettered the competition.

No?

I was under the impression that the Glock had failed the '93 test when it became seperated at the frame rails. I may be thinking of another test by another department.

Brand loyalty aside.

Marcus L.
December 21, 2008, 12:03 PM
I was under the impression that the Glock had failed the '93 test when it became seperated at the frame rails. I may be thinking of another test by another department.

That was the DHS testing of 2002 which is why the Glock did not pass. DHS awarded contracts to Sig and H&K who passed the testing. DHS were using 155gr duty loads during their testing which puts a heck of a lot more abuse on the .40 pistols than the FBI trials which used 180gr loads. 9mms that were tested used 124gr+P. There was no mention of Glock failing any aspect of the FBI trials, which is why they were awarded pistol contracts.

Tipoc,

Go to a Sig forum and all the members will tell you that the Sig P220 will give you at least 100k rounds of trouble free service. Even though the DOD and FBI found that most of them were out of action in as little as 10k rounds. Go to an FN forum and the members will make similar claims about the FNP series which did not pass the DHS or DOD trials. Glocks.....H&Ks....S&Ws.....all such fan forums will tell you the same. My past experience on CZ forums was a joke in that CZ fans overlooked the fact that they were replacing broken parts such as trigger return springs, trigger bars, and extractors at a rate of 5-10k rounds and claiming that their pistols were highly durable.....and these were the 9mm models, not the more troublesome .40S&W models or the .45acp 97b nightmare. You simply are not going to get any element of a unbias or realistic measure of a firearm's quality or durability by going to fan sites in which the members spend all their time defending their own confidence and financial investments.

Either a pistol passes or it does not. The FBI, DOI, ICE, DOD, USCG, USA, USMC,....etc has never adopted a firearm that did not pass open trials. If they have a choice, they will often choice the more economic of the finalists. Poe-dunk little LE agencies who don't do such testing will adopt equipment based on political or economic motives alone.......that's why most of us don't consider them the standard. We consider them an exception.

DiN_BLiX
December 21, 2008, 01:44 PM
That's the beauty of US police and military testing

Yes the beauty is that they have been notoriusly WRONG in the past, and not just a few times but alot, and always at the expense of the tax payer i might add(early m16 trials, FBI 9mm fiasco in the 80s and 90s?, 10mm OMG lets adopt a gun that half our people cant even handle profitiently!) BTW to my knowlage all metal framed cz-75 verients are NATO rated. In closing, buy what you want, shoot it and smile. we will wallways have haters and fanboys.:neener:

tekarra
December 21, 2008, 03:15 PM
Marcus,

Interesting post. Details of tests and failures would be interesting reading. Do you have a source for the tests?

CZF
December 21, 2008, 04:11 PM
Interesting info, but I doubt if I'll ever run sand thru my pet RAMI or other CZs. Not even my Glocks or M&P.

hags
December 21, 2008, 05:20 PM
NATO rated?

What set of specifications or testing does that entail?

DiN_BLiX
December 21, 2008, 07:32 PM
Its a basic stress test, so many dryfires, decoks, rounds fired without malfunction, etc.

tipoc
December 21, 2008, 08:42 PM
By Marcus L.
Go to a Sig forum and all the members will tell you that the Sig P220 will give you at least 100k rounds of trouble free service. Even though the DOD and FBI found that most of them were out of action in as little as 10k rounds. Go to an FN forum and the members will make similar claims about the FNP series which did not pass the DHS or DOD trials. Glocks.....H&Ks....S&Ws.....all such fan forums will tell you the same. My past experience on CZ forums was a joke in that CZ fans overlooked the fact that they were replacing broken parts such as trigger return springs, trigger bars, and extractors at a rate of 5-10k rounds and claiming that their pistols were highly durable.....and these were the 9mm models, not the more troublesome .40S&W models or the .45acp 97b nightmare. You simply are not going to get any element of a unbias or realistic measure of a firearm's quality or durability by going to fan sites in which the members spend all their time defending their own confidence and financial investments.

There is some truth to this which is why it takes objective and critical reading of the threads and some broader experience to tell the difference between fluff and accurate information. For example, you personally read some threads and drew the conclusion that failures of small parts after 5,000 rounds did not make a gun reliable to you. The post told you something you may not have otherwise known.

Over to the 1911 forum a fella can read up on Kimbers. People who own Kimbers come there looking for advice on non functioning handguns. You'll notice that Kimber has been having trouble with their quality control at a rate higher than other manufacturers of 1911s.

So in my experience the Sig, CZ, Ruger, S&W, etc. forums are useful regarding the reliability, accuracy, etc. of various guns particularly if you pay attention to the complaints about them and have learned how to read critically. For civilians anyways and for self defense purposes, range work, etc. the forums can be a good deal of help.

If a firearm has been accepted into military or law enforcement service it does not necessarily mean it will be useful or "the best" for any particular shooter though. It only tells you the gun is likely reliable.

The criteria in testing are important. By the criteria used the U.S. military decided the 1911 was passe. The M9 was their choice over the Sig P226 ands entries from Walther and H&K. Some agencies have either ruled the Glock out in advance due to it's trigger or found it wanting in terms of ammo selection or some other criteria.

Some agencies employ point systems in their testing which establish points for both hard and soft criteria. Points for endurance tests as well as points for "shootability" or handling characteristics. Points for length of trigger pull. Points for fixed front sights or removable front sights, etc. Points for the cost of replacement mags and parts, etc. In some cases guns are tested with certain types of preferred ammo.

So if a gun passes or fails tells you something about it's reliability but knowing the criterai tells you more.

In any case the CZ RAMI is not likely to be up for testing by any law enforcement or federal agency anytime soon and for the same reason a J frame S&W ain't.

tipoc

hags
December 21, 2008, 08:56 PM
I don't know, but getting back to the OP I wouldn't put any CZ, let alone the new polymer CZ pistols, in the same class as a Glock, HK, or M&P.

These are purpose built, time tested and proven designs. Glock, HK, Sig and S&W enjoy the reputation they have because these designs work and are repeatable.

Personally it's nice to see the Smith and Wesson M&P doing so well. It's a strong design and if the grip section was a little bigger it'd be my daily shooter.

But, nothing will determine whether or not it's good for YOU more so than YOU shooting it.

armoredman
December 21, 2008, 09:03 PM
Years ago I worked at a city indoor rental range, many handgus on the shelf to use and abuse. Guns being rented get abused 10-20 times greater than ever anywhere else. What failed? Glock, a few Ruger autos, SiG P220 and P232, (still loved shooting the P220), Berreta 92, Smith autos, Springfield autos, 5 out of six HK USPs, basically almost everything except for the one CZ and Smith revolvers. In the interest of fairness, the CZ was not rented as much as the others, and maintenance on a rental range can be a bit spotty. Some of my co-workers just didn't care.
Maybe I have just beem incredibly lucky, blessed from above as it were, but I have yet to have any spring, slidestop, or any other reliabilty issues with my CZs, pistols or rifle.
Oh, on LE purchases? A lot of testing goes right out the window when it comes to price. I have checked in on this with my own Dept. You could have the worlds best sidearm, with decent support and parts, but another bidder comes in lower by a large margin, with a similar sidearm, not quite as nice, but with lotsa support, and boom, the decision is made. Performance is important, (note no LE issuing Jennings 9mm. :O ), but price is really important, and Grock sells guns to LE for a fraction of what you or I pay.

DiN_BLiX
December 23, 2008, 06:03 PM
Correction, Glock, HK, Sig, and S&W enjoy the reputation they do because thats what Jack Bauer (and clones) shoot, and internet hype, oh and lets not forget mall ninjas. Polymer framed is not my thing, but Ive owned CZs before and would not hesitate to own some again.

hags
December 23, 2008, 07:16 PM
Correction, Glock, HK, Sig, and S&W enjoy the reputation they do because thats what Jack Bauer (and clones) shoot, and internet hype, oh and lets not forget mall ninjas. Polymer framed is not my thing, but Ive owned CZs before and would not hesitate to own some again.

Is this a serious post?

Isn't Jack Bauer a fictional character? "and clones" ***?

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have read on this forum.
Maybe to the 20 somethings that live at home and want to impress their girlfriends or the guys they hang out with.
In the real world I can name you 5-6 local PDs and one SD that use polymer handguns.
I can't imagine carrying the SP-01, that gun weighs a ton.

atblis
December 23, 2008, 07:31 PM
I think you need to read his post again. Yes he's saying people buy guns based on what a fictional character uses. Not that it is rational or correct, but that it does happen. Look at what Counter Strike did for a number of guns.

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