CCW - must notify


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Wonder9
December 20, 2008, 12:53 AM
This evening my wife got pulled over for speeding while I sat shotgun. Am I required to notify the officer that I have a CHL?

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mljdeckard
December 20, 2008, 12:59 AM
Not familiar with OH law, but normally no. His conversation is with her, not you. You are not doing anything for which he would have reason to ask you for ID in the first place. BUT, we all know, the police will usually ask all passengers in the car for ID, (ok OFTEN,) and most people are sheepish enough to hand them over. HE WOULD SAY, at this point, he has business contact with you, and you should show it to him. Do you feel like refusing, getting into a confrontation, pulled out of the car, frisked, only to be ultimately proven right? Me neither.

A suppose that it might be inferred, that if your wife is driving, and there is a concealed weapon in the car, she would be in violation unless you present your permit. But again, how would they know there was a weapon if you didn't tell them?

Treo
December 20, 2008, 01:19 AM
If Ohio is a duty to inform state then I would say yes, you are required to inform. I would also say that as a CHP holder it is incumbent upon you to know that you are in one of the 10 states in which you have a legal duty to inform.
If Ohio isn’t a duty to inform state I sincerely recommend that you say nothing to the police officer unless he directly addresses you or specifically asks if there are any weapons in the vehicle.
As for the ID Hiible V. Nevada holds that under a state stop and identify law you are required to give your name not your I.D. (doesn’t apply in situations where presenting I.D. is a condition of licensure I.E you agreed to surrender the DL on demand if you are driving when you applied for it)
This topic is a very dead horse search is our friend

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=413087&highlight=inform
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=391811&highlight=inform
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385922&highlight=inform
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349307&highlight=inform
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=335297&highlight=inform
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385906&highlight=traffic+stop
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397749&highlight=traffic+stop
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380100&highlight=traffic+stop
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=379731&highlight=traffic+stop
And this is just a random sampling of over sixty threads

TexasRifleman
December 20, 2008, 09:55 AM
Even in the duty to inform state of Texas the OP would not have to identify himself as CCW unless the LE asked him specifically for ID.

If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license.

As a passenger you may sit quietly unless asked for ID. I am assuming the other states are the same way otherwise how could you define the "trigger" for having to display? If you are within 10 feet of an LE? If you can read his badge number?

No, being asked to show ID would be the triggering cause I suspect, as it is here in Texas.

Should be easy enough to find in the Ohio penal code.


ETA: Found the Ohio version here

http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/concealcarry/index.asp

The language used in Ohio is similar to Texas

If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose

Not being a lawyer that one, though a little fuzzier, still sounds like you would not have to display the license as a passenger since only the driver is being stopped for a "law enforcement purpose".

ronwill
December 20, 2008, 11:00 AM
Yes you must notify. The following taken directly from Ohio code:

(B) No person who has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code shall do any of the following:

(1) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the person after the person has been stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun;

(2) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun, knowingly fail to keep the personís hands in plain sight at any time after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the person while stopped and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the failure is pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

(3) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose, if the person is carrying a concealed handgun, and if the person is approached by any law enforcement officer while stopped, knowingly remove or attempt to remove the loaded handgun from the holster, pocket, or other place in which the person is carrying it, knowingly grasp or hold the loaded handgun, or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the personís hands or fingers at any time after the law enforcement officer begins approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by the law enforcement officer;

(4) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun, knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the person is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the personís hands in plain sight.

Kleanbore
December 20, 2008, 11:11 AM
From Wonder9: This evening my wife got pulled over for speeding while I sat shotgun. Am I required to notify the officer that I have a CHL?


First question is, were you carrying?

If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the person after the person has been stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun;

Second question is, were you stopped? My lay presumption would be "yes", but that's worth what you paid for it. It's a question for an attorney. Perhaps your best bet would be to ask the Attorney General of Ohio.

rscalzo
December 20, 2008, 11:13 AM
If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose

The driver was stopped for the law enforcement purpose, not the passenger. While case law in some states cover the actions and responsibilities of passengers, the duty to inform , in my opinion, does not attach in this instance.

ultradoc
December 20, 2008, 12:01 PM
I would and I would say yes.

Wonder9
December 20, 2008, 12:10 PM
Kleanbore,

1st - Yes, I was carrying. Although in reality my G19 was inside my jacket which was lying in the backseat.

2nd - I guess this is where the stink is - whom was pulled over? Just my wife or by proxy both of us?

I was prepared to notify him the second the conversation went beyond just he and my wife.

Thin Black Line
December 20, 2008, 01:40 PM
AK,LA,MI,NE,NC,OH,OK,SC,TX and UT are the ten.

Thanks, JD.

TexasRifleman
December 20, 2008, 08:09 PM
2nd - I guess this is where the stink is - whom was pulled over? Just my wife or by proxy both of us?

I was prepared to notify him the second the conversation went beyond just he and my wife.

I just don't see how you can, as the passenger, be considered part of the stop if the LE doesn't address you directly.

If a cop pulled over a bus for running a red light is everyone on the bus now in LE contact?

HiTech78
December 20, 2008, 08:13 PM
I am a CHL holder in Ohio, on page 13 of Ohio's Concealed Carry Law it clearly states "These obligations apply to drivers and occupants."

You must inform the officer.


Oh, BTW......you just admitted to committing a crime by posting this:


1st - Yes, I was carrying. Although in reality my G19 was inside my jacket which was lying in the backseat.

You CANNOT transport a firearm like this!

TexasRifleman
December 20, 2008, 08:18 PM
The particular law is Ohio Code 2923.16 E 3. Finally had time to look it up. There's no reason to debate it, it's pretty clear now.

There is absolutely a requirement to inform, even if just the occupant, in Ohio. Certainly different than here in Texas but the code is very clear for Ohio residents.

Seems HiTech78 is right about the OP committing a couple of crimes here. 1) Failure to inform and 2) improper carrying in a motor vehicle.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16

In it's entirety, at least the section regarding concealed carriers in a motor vehicle (sorry, its a long one)

(E) No person who has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code shall do any of the following:

(1) Knowingly transport or have a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle unless one of the following applies:

(a) The loaded handgun is in a holster on the person’s person.

(b) The loaded handgun is in a closed case, bag, box, or other container that is in plain sight and that has a lid, a cover, or a closing mechanism with a zipper, snap, or buckle, which lid, cover, or closing mechanism must be opened for a person to gain access to the handgun.

(c) The loaded handgun is securely encased by being stored in a closed glove compartment or vehicle console or in a case that is locked.

(2) If the person is transporting or has a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle in a manner authorized under division (E)(1) of this section, knowingly remove or attempt to remove the loaded handgun from the holster, case, bag, box, container, or glove compartment, knowingly grasp or hold the loaded handgun, or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the person’s hands or fingers while the motor vehicle is being operated on a street, highway, or public property unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has the contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

(3) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose or is the driver or an occupant of a commercial motor vehicle that is stopped by an employee of the motor carrier enforcement unit for the purposes defined in section 5503.34 of the Revised Code, and if the person is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle or commercial motor vehicle in any manner, fail to do any of the following that is applicable:

(a) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose, fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the vehicle while stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then possesses or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle;

(b) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a commercial motor vehicle stopped by an employee of the motor carrier enforcement unit for any of the defined purposes, fail to promptly inform the employee of the unit who approaches the vehicle while stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then possesses or has a loaded handgun in the commercial motor vehicle.

(4) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose and if the person is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle in any manner, knowingly fail to remain in the motor vehicle while stopped or knowingly fail to keep the person’s hands in plain sight at any time after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the person while stopped and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the failure is pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

(5) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose, if the person is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle in a manner authorized under division (E)(1) of this section, and if the person is approached by any law enforcement officer while stopped, knowingly remove or attempt to remove the loaded handgun from the holster, case, bag, box, container, or glove compartment, knowingly grasp or hold the loaded handgun, or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the person’s hands or fingers in the motor vehicle at any time after the law enforcement officer begins approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by the law enforcement officer;

(6) If the person is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose and if the person is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle in any manner, knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the motor vehicle is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person’s hands in plain sight.

HiTech78
December 20, 2008, 08:25 PM
If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person
is carrying a concealed handgun.......


If an officer pulls a vehicle over, ALL occupants are being "stopped".

HiTech78
December 20, 2008, 08:33 PM
la la la....sorry

TexasRifleman
December 20, 2008, 08:36 PM
Well, the law itself is much clearer than the booklet, that's why I looked up the actual code.

The booklet only says, in the section on LE encouters:

If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person
is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW licensee, whether in a motor
vehicle or not, the person shall not knowingly disregard or fail to comply
with any lawful order given by any law enforcement officer. Violating
this law is a first degree misdemeanor and may result in the suspension
of the person’s concealed handgun license for two years.

That's pretty vague on whether or not occupants are included. That just says that if a person is stopped they must inform, not that you must inform even if just an occupant.

Pretty poorly written booklet. Might get someone in trouble.

HiTech78
December 20, 2008, 08:41 PM
There ya have it!

TexasRifleman
December 20, 2008, 08:42 PM
You're completely correct.

Frog48
December 21, 2008, 03:35 PM
I cant speak of Ohio, but here in Texas only the subject of the stop is required to inform, IE the driver.

Kleanbore
December 21, 2008, 05:03 PM
TexasRifleman, good work.

You are right, the booklet is poorly worded and could get someone in trouble.

mljdeckard
December 21, 2008, 05:12 PM
Changing my first post. Because it is worded THAT specifically in OH, I would notify when in doubt.

That handbook is going to get someone fired.

R00KIE
December 22, 2008, 12:25 AM
in our state it comes up on the cops dash-computer with a red flag.
Just so they "know"

SMMAssociates
December 22, 2008, 04:33 AM
The OH guidebook pretty much starts out by saying something like "This is a guide, not the law. You are responsible for observing the LAW...."

It's (as well as the law) is full of traps for the unwary. For example, a sign stating that you can't carry in a building "unless authorized" is an absolute prohibition (a Felony) if it's a "government building", but may be considered either way (we're arguing about that one) and is, IAC, a misdemeanor when posted on Private Property. If that same sign appears on the parking lot of a private building, it's now a CIVIL matter, if the owner wants to go to the trouble, but you still may not be allowed to carry in the building. Further, just to make the Circle of Life, that same sign is invalid on "Government Property" for the parking lots, and may be invalid for some buildings, like highway rest stops....

There is no exception for out-of-state visitors, and the "government buildings" do not include "knowingly" in the statute.

You still want to come here?

Regards,

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