Dog attack


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chaim
September 23, 2003, 05:57 PM
A cousin of mine was attacked by his neighbor's dog (a mutt that was half pit bull). He was mowing his lawn when the neighbor let the dog out the front door loose (illegal in Bethesda, MD where they live). The dog, without any warning, charged my cousin and attacked him. He had to be rushed to the hospital by ambulance. He is currently staying with my aunt in Rockville (she is his cousin, he is my mom's first cousin but he is my age, anyway, back on track). We don't know if there is any perminant damage but there is some fear of nerve or muscle damage. If there is it may make him unemployed. His job, he is a research scientist doing work to protect the blood supply, involves a lot of time on his feet and the use of fine motor coordination skills. Hopefully, everything will be ok. I have no news on the dog, but hopefully the owners are being fined and hopefully the dog is being put down- no need to keep demonstratably dangerous animals around (it attacked a guy, my cousin, on my cousin's property).

To make this gun related, I do use every opportunity to try to put some doubt in my parents' head over their strongly anti gun stances. I mentioned that if my cousin had a handgun in a holster he could have stopped the dog, possibly before being attacked, probably before any concern over perminant damage. My dad's reaction was two, really sheeple, reactions. "You can't just shoot a dog!!!" I say, "dad, the dog was attacking him". He says, "well, you can't go discharging a firearm in a residential neighborhood. You'll disturb people and it is dangerous":what: I couldn't believe it. My dad is willing to let his anti feelings win out over the demonstrated safety of a family member :banghead: . I can sort of understand being unwilling to question your cherished views over a totally theoretical situation (suppose someone you cared about was attacked by a dog, robber, rapist, murderer, etc), but this was an actual situation that I was using to demonstrate that "sometimes" a gun can actually be useful and he reacted as if I had three heads for such a suggestion.:banghead:

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Pilgrim
September 23, 2003, 06:04 PM
Does your father feel any sense of outrage over the attack?

Pilgrim

ballistic gelatin
September 23, 2003, 06:19 PM
With stories like that, most people just chalk it up to bad luck.
Sure, it's the owners responsibility, but pointing fingers doesn't protect anyone.

That really stinks.
So, can you get a clean shot at the dog? If not, you could go by the pound pretending to look for an adoptable animal and give him some antifreeze...

chaim
September 23, 2003, 06:19 PM
Does your father feel any sense of outrage over the attack? Yes, he rightly thinks the dog's owners were negligent by letting it out unattended. He also thinks that pit bulls are dangerous and simply owning a pit bull in a populated area is negligent. As for any way to defend against it, he thinks having a gun would have been useless, using one would have been beyond negligent, and owning them makes you likely to shoot yourself accidentally (I'm 33 and my current life situation has me living at home and my dad has to think that all my ammo is under his control or I can't have my guns in his house- that is actually a big improvement over when I wasn't allowed to have guns at his house at all, and still he can't know how many and what kinds I have or I'd probably be disowned). You see, my dad grew up in the country and as a hunter so he "knows guns" and has "seen what they can do" so he knows how evil they are:rolleyes: .

chaim
September 23, 2003, 06:26 PM
With stories like that, most people just chalk it up to bad luck. Or negligence on the part of the dog owner.

Sure, it's the owners responsibility, but pointing fingers doesn't protect anyone.
After the fact, maybe or maybe not. Still doesn't change the fact that the owner was highly negligent. Whether you agree with leash laws or not Bethesda has them and there is a good reason to keep your dog on a leash there (law or not it is common sense). It is a fairly densely populated area. Letting a dog, especially an aggressive dog, out unattended and unleashed isn't only illegal it is negligent. Sure, I'm sure the owner didn't know that the dog would attack my cousin on this occasion. However, it doesn't take much brain power to know that this was a bad idea, at best. As overused as the civil court system is this is a prime example of where a lawsuit would be more than justified and the owners should be charged with every criminal charge possible as well.

If you have a dog you are responsible for it. If you live in a densely populated, semi-urban, area and you don't have a fenced yard you do not let your dog roam free. Seems like basic common sense to me.

This is just a tad beyond bad luck and "no use in pointing fingers". Someone allowed their dog out unattended in a populated area (against both the law and common sense). As a result my cousin almost lost his life, he may face a lifetime of pain, and he may be unable to continue in his job in which he has over a decade experience and for which he studied for years in graduate school. But "pointing fingers doesn't protect anyone". :fire:

Please tell me I misunderstood your post.:banghead:

RustyHammer
September 23, 2003, 06:33 PM
Cousin: Law suit. Then,

Use proceeds to buy guns!

/Rusty

P.S. Another reason for CCW, no?

son of a gun
September 23, 2003, 08:17 PM
Your cousin could legally brandish a shot gun on a sling instead of a hand gun, I think he would find either one more trouble than it's worth the odds of being attacked by a vicious dog are low. I think pepper spray might have stopped the dog no vision and smelling would stop the dog may be.
The bottom line is you shouldn't have to carry weapons to be safe in your own yard, I hope your cousin recovers 100% and sues the neighbors butt's off.

Freightman
September 23, 2003, 08:47 PM
I had a pit bull charge my kids a long while back when we were ridding our bikes, I told them to ride own , steped of my bike pulled my knife ( have carried one since I was 7) the dog came to a screaching hault. The owner said " what are you going to do to my dog"? my answer was slit his throat and then whip his owner.
The dog was called off the owner hurriedaly went inside I left. Three weeks later the dog did attack a child which required 28 stiches. The dog was shot in front of the owner by the sherrif and the insuing lawsuit cost the man all he had to pay off the settlement because of the recurring problem with the dog.
Put the man out on the street and he will know better if he gets another house.
You can control a gun not a vicious dog it cost less to have a gun for protection.

Cosmoline
September 23, 2003, 08:48 PM
There are bites and there are bites. I've been bitten many times. In fact just about every day some pup will bite me at the kennel. That's how they communicate, and you have to teach them not to do it. But there's a big difference between a "hey let's play!" bite or a "I don't trust you" bite and what's described here. When the blood flows and tissue is destroyed, that dog is trying to kill, pure and simple. Spray might work against a dog that's just nervous, but when a dog of this type commits to the attack I'd suggest a .38 Special or even an old lemon squeezer .38 S&W to the brain. A shotgun is too risky that close, and too hard to carry around. Of course nothing is going to be easy to use when you're being mauled.

The best way to avoid an attack, BTW is to stand your ground and NEVER run. Most dogs prefer to make sucker bites--the back of the leg or the buttock as you turn and try to run. Don't give them the chance. I've run off many large, angry dogs by standing firm with a stick in my hands. Of course, they could have done serious damage to me stick or no--but they don't know that. They're just dogs.

Pilgrim
September 23, 2003, 09:38 PM
Once upon a time in my younger days I was jogging down a country road when three dogs came running out of their yard, teeth bared, and looking like they wanted to have fresh Pilgrim for supper. I pulled out a S&W Model 36 and took an agressive stance facing the dogs. The dogs realized that Pilgrim wasn't going to run or dance silly for their entertainment. They froze and didn't move until their owner called them back.

Their owner shouted, "I saw that gun. I'm calling the sheriff."

I told him, "Fine. When he gets here you can explain why your dogs are running loose in violation of the county leash law and attacked me."

He went inside his house. I gather he didn't call the sheriff because no deputy showed up.

Pilgrim

Chipperman
September 23, 2003, 10:21 PM
"simply owning a pit bull in a populated area is negligent." :banghead:

Negligence was having a loose dog, and a mean one at that. Breed has nothing to do with it.

Pit Bulls unfortunately have a bad rap. I have yet to be bitten by a Pit Bull, while I've been bitten by several other breeds. The nice Pit Bulls are fine, the nasty ones let you know before you even get close to them.

The problem here is that when a Pit Bull or Rottie DOES bite you, you're going to the hospital. When Mrs. Smith's POS Terrier bites you, it doesn't get reported.

(And just so you don't think I'm a bleeding heart Vet, I'd have shot the dog myself. There's too many nice dogs being euthanized at the SPCA every day to keep a mean one around.)

Mike Irwin
September 23, 2003, 11:21 PM
Chaim,

No offense, I really mean that right off the bat, but I am really interested in know this.

You're observant. I don't know if your parents are or not.

Your parents are anti-gun.

You're not.

The prevailing wisdom (and apparent truth) is that the Jewish community is by and large very anti-gun.

How did you break past the cultural, religious, and family upbringing barriers to become a member of the firearms community?

capt. Nemo
September 23, 2003, 11:50 PM
What country did he grow up in?

"You can't just shoot a dog!"...sure you can: Front sight, front sight, press..

chaim
September 23, 2003, 11:56 PM
You're observant. I don't know if your parents are or not.

Your parents are anti-gun.

You're not.

The prevailing wisdom (and apparent truth) is that the Jewish community is by and large very anti-gun.

How did you break past the cultural, religious, and family upbringing barriers to become a member of the firearms community

I was not raised as a Jew, let alone a religious Jew (though mom is Jewish so I did not need to convert). In fact, a decade ago I thought I'd be a Unitarian minister.

My mom is not observant (she is now a Unitarian actually, though she is Jewish).

My dad isn't Jewish. He is a country bumpkin (no offense to any country boys out there, I mean it in the nicest possible way). He grew up in the poorest and most rural county in PA. He grew up as a hunter. His family was as Republican as one can be (with a handful of exceptions). Today, he hates guns and is nearly a socialist he is so liberal. I have no idea how that happened.

My parents are anti. I used to be. However, they did encourage me to think for myself so it wasn't a given that I'd stay that way. In fact, my mom might actual come around someday (she does seem to be becoming more conservative every day).

As for the Jewish community, most in the US are not religiously observant. Also, as was the case for most new immigrant groups they were pretty liberal, at least with social issues. Non-religious Jews are more interested in complete assimilation more than just about anything else. They were by and large in the cities. The centuries old Jewish concentration on educating oneself in Torah was replaced with secular education. Somehow the combination of all those traits added up to most Jews being fairly to very liberal and when liberals turned against guns in the '60s most Jews did too. Also, many Jews were survivors of the holocaust, or had extended family who were and guns took on an association with repression and death (already a factor after centuries of repression by armed bands while in Europe and we were usually banned from owning guns so there was no tradition of gun ownership to counteract the association with negative events).

Today I think the gun thing may be changing. More and more secular Jews are becoming more conservative. Also, religious Jews tend to be far more conservative in general in comparison to non-religious Jews (and by recent studies the proportion of the Jewish population that is religious is rising quickly).

As for me, I've always kind of had a fascination with guns (even when I was a "moderate" anti). I loved them when I was in Basic Training. I always wanted to get into target shooting. Also, as I became religious I also started to get more conservative in general. When I bought my first guns I started looking over the issues and that plus TFL helped wake me up a bit (I was pretty pro-guns by then but I was not for carry as one example of part of the change).

Combat-wombat
September 23, 2003, 11:58 PM
If the dog did permanent damage, I have one word for your cousin: Lawsuit.

chaim
September 24, 2003, 12:04 AM
What country did he grow up in? Dad's from Greene County, PA. Closest town (and where he went to college) is Waynesburg, PA. Closest "big" city is Morgantown, WV (30-40min away), next closest city is Pittsburgh, PA (45min-1hr away).

Lord Grey Boots
September 24, 2003, 12:06 AM
Let see

Choice A) Discharge firearm in city limits, get fined. Disturb neighbours. Survive unhurt, or with minor injuries.

Choice B) Mauled seriously by an attacking dog. If not killed, probably disfigured or crippled for life.


How can any responsible person choose option B? How could any responsible person force option B on someone else?

chaim
September 24, 2003, 12:10 AM
Choice A) Discharge firearm in city limits, get fined. Disturb neighbours. Survive unhurt, or with minor injuries. I don't know, MD is pretty anti, but in a justified shoot of an attacking dog, would someone actually be fined? I don't know. Even here one does have the right to carry on their own property (though CCW off your property is pretty much impossible). So I'm not sure what crime there would be to charge. Lawyers out there, are the laws against discharging a firearm in a populated area usually waived in cases of a justified shoot or can a prosecutor with a grudge charge someone with that even if everything else is justified?

jarhead
September 24, 2003, 01:08 AM
If you are being attacked by a dog, or in genuine reasonable epectation that you are about to be attacked, I could not foresee any charges/fines for discharging a firearm in city limits... it's late and my mind is having a hard time coughing up the legal premise; but it boils down to if a greater crime will occur if you do not "violate" a lesser law then you cannot be charged (i.e. if you didn't shoot the dog then you or a loved one would likely be visciously attacked and that would be a worse "crime" than discharging a firearm)... There is constitutional basis for these laws protecting us, so everyone should be pretty safe in that situation - unless of course you live in California... then most constitutional issues are in a gray area...

Ryder
September 24, 2003, 01:14 AM
I must be the only one here who thinks that a lawn mower makes a good weapon?

fish2xs
September 24, 2003, 10:31 AM
>> I must be the only one here who thinks that a lawn mower makes a good weapon?

Oh no! They make excellent weapons for sure... just a little harder to carry concealed.

In my neighborhood most dogs are kid-dogs (golden retrievers - including mine). But
even they have 'bad hair days'. Packing heat is a little tough in eastern MA, and really
not necessary in my neck of the woods, but I never walk the dog without at least a
pocket knife.

10-Ring
September 24, 2003, 11:47 AM
I was attacked by 2 neighborhood dogs earlier this year. I was able to deflect one, but the other got to my leg. My injuries weren't as bad as your cousin's, but it did draw blood. Now, I go running w/ a can of doggy mace (OC specifically intended for use on dogs).

semf
September 24, 2003, 12:49 PM
I've ,at one time or another, had 13 Pits. The breed is not the problem as much as the type people that own them. They want the biggest, baddest dog on the block either to prove their manhood, or for protection, not realizing that just as you have to be trained in the firearms, or martial arts, or knives that you use for protection your dog also has to be trained. Even if he just knows the command to stop.

Most "Pit-Bull" attacks are not Pits but Pit mixes usually Pit/Lab mixes. Labs are good dogs after awhile but until about 18 months they are stubborn and high strung ( the most likely reason your cousin was attacked was because the lawn mower irritated the dog) when you mix tose traits with the powerand hunter instincts of a Pit you have a potentially dangerous animal that should be treated as such.

As far as pepper spraying a Pit (or Rottys) I tried that once and got 13 stitches in my butt cheek for my trouble (yeah I ran) Pits feel no pain when they are enraged or on the hunt. And they are sight hounds not scent hounds so taking away their sense of smell has minimal effect and taking away their sight really pisses them off.

The best defense is to give the dog something to bite. Women can use their puse. A hose or a belt also will work, some thing he can bite and thrash around, you have to keep hold of it as you back to safe cover. Or you could keep the mower between you and the animal you can push down on the handels to lift the front, putting the blades in his face. They usually only bite the blades once.

If worse comes to worse give him your left arm as you draw with your right hand and put 2 or 3 in his chest. Yeah it's gonna hurt but at least you can choose which body part he gets and an arm can take much more abuse than your neck.

These are things that have worked for me with the 3 vicious dog attacks I have survived ( not including the butt biter)

oldfart
September 24, 2003, 01:10 PM
We recently had a new neighbor move in next door. He was a single guy with two dogs. One, some sort of malemute mix, would sit in the back yard when his owner was away and howl like a wolf. It was more than a bit difficult to sleep while that was going on, so I wrote a note and taped it to the door. Eventually, the howling stopped and I heard that the dog had become sick and died, (no I didn't poison it).

The other dog, a huge Rottweiler, is kept in by a rather flimsy board fence between his property and mine. When my wife goes out to work in her garden, the dog makes a valient effort to tear down the fence and come through. It has gotten to the point where my wife is afraid to tend her garden. So I load the shotgun and sit there while she digs and weeds and otherwise takes care of business.

Last week, as she was kneeling down to do something and the dog was being his usual PITA, a local police officer drove by and looked over at me sitting ther with a 12-gauge across my lap. He stopped and with some extra care, came over to ask why I had a gun out. About that time, the dog, hearing a new voice on our side of the fence, renewed his assault on the weathered boards, shaking about twenty feet of the fence in his effort.

I waved my hand in the direction of the dog and said, "That's why."

The officer, with suddenly very big eyes, peered through some cracks in the fence and then went to knock on the neighbor's door. No one was home, so he wrote a note and taped it to the door and then came back to talk to me. He asked what load I was using and was relieved to hear that it was #6 rather than buckshot, but he didn't tell me not to keep guard with it.

Yesterday, a fencing contractor came by to begin building a newer, stronger fence.

ysr_racer
September 24, 2003, 01:19 PM
Mike Irwin said:
The prevailing wisdom (and apparent truth) is that the Jewish community is by and large very anti-gun.


Mike, as a Jew I can tell you that's very true. Most older Jews (55 plus) tend to be very liberal. Most younger Jews (I'm 45) tend to live in a world where reality and religion are intermixed.

On the one hand I wish I didn’t need to have a handgun to protect myself, on the other hand, there’s enough scumbags in the world to warrant it.

Making the change from my liberal upbringing to the REAL world took place as soon as I moved out from my parents house.

DMK
September 24, 2003, 01:19 PM
Man, this is another good reason to always CCW on your property if it's legal. In many states, you don't even need a licence to do so.

chaim
September 24, 2003, 01:41 PM
I've ,at one time or another, had 13 Pits. The breed is not the problem as much as the type people that own them. They want the biggest, baddest dog on the block either to prove their manhood, or for protection, not realizing that just as you have to be trained in the firearms, or martial arts, or knives that you use for protection your dog also has to be trained Good point. I'm not a dog owner (I'm more of a cat guy) but I love animals and I'm pretty familiar with dogs. With any dog, especially the more aggressive breeds, it is extremely important to establish dominance. For some people, especially novice or uneducated dog owners, this is the most difficult part of dog ownership. One must also be very careful not to lose dominance once it is established as many dogs, especially the more aggressive breeds, will constantly test dominance and compete for dominance. I'd be willing to bet that most attacks where a dog turns on its owner is where the owner didn't establish dominance (with the rest being where the dog was abused or both). Most of the attacks on others were either negligence, lack of dominance for the owner, or both.

The best defense is to give the dog something to bite. Women can use their puse. A hose or a belt also will work, some thing he can bite and thrash around, you have to keep hold of it as you back to safe cover. Or you could keep the mower between you and the animal you can push down on the handels to lift the front, putting the blades in his face. They usually only bite the blades once.

If worse comes to worse give him your left arm... Sounds like some good advice. Unfortunately, it sounds like it comes from hard won experience:what:

Oh, welcome to THR semf since I haven't welcomed you earlier and you're still pretty new.

We recently had a new neighbor move in next door. He was a single guy with two dogs... Oldfart, that is a great story.

Man, this is another good reason to always CCW on your property if it's legal. In many states, you don't even need a licence to do so. Agreed. Even here in MD where getting a CCW license is virtually impossible one may carry on their own property. When I called to state police to be sure they enforced the law the way it appears to be written I was told that it was in fact ok to carry on your property (though the trooper I spoke with didn't seem to like the idea). I was cautioned though to carry concealed so I don't spook neighbors. If a neighbor calls police about an armed neighbor they have to come, wasting their time and mine, and he also said that you never know how the local cops will react (not all may know the law and if arrested you may be right but you'll need the time, money and emotional trouble, of going to court).

45crittergitter
September 25, 2003, 02:45 PM
I love dogs, but...

I have been there and done that... more than once. Hydrashocks work better than SWC's. Buckshot OK too. Dogs are gone and I am unharmed. Cop called by neighbor (not dog owner) said to protect myself. End of story.

Now about the copperhead in the middle of my carport....

RWK
September 25, 2003, 03:28 PM
Living, as you do, in the DC area -- even in Northern Virginia -- I understand your frustration with the naïve liberalism of so much of our citizenry. I recommend you ask your father the following set of sequential questions:

1. Does every individual have the right of self-preservation (family and innocent defense, as well)?
2. Isn’t that right clear, well established, validated by history, and globally sanctioned by governments and religions?
3. Wouldn’t you agree that, in an ideal world there would be no life-threatening violence; however, don’t the facts demonstrate a perfect society has never existed?
4. Further, in an ideal society wouldn’t governments ensure citizens were protected from all harm?
5. Wouldn’t you agree that -- due to financial limitations and practical constrains -- government protection simply cannot be omnipresent?
6. Therefore, since society/government simply cannot protect us, must we not protect ourselves?
7. Aren’t firearms a proven, efficient, and effective way to do so?

Standing Wolf
September 25, 2003, 10:26 PM
My dad is willing to let his anti feelings win out over the demonstrated safety of a family member.

Leftists believe their irrational fears trump the nation's civil rights. They're apparently sincere in their belief, but that doesn't make it rational, intelligent, or common-sensible.

Freightman
September 26, 2003, 12:53 AM
Good fencses make good neighbors!!!

Aikibiker
September 26, 2003, 01:03 AM
Wow Chaim I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

There but for the grace of God and the good fortune to have a weapon handy went I a few nights ago. While I was out in the drive way refinishing my Jos (a short staff used in some Japanese martial arts) I looked up to see a pit bull enter my yard and start staring at me. After a few moments he started tensing his muscles and getting into what was clearly an attack posture. I quickly got the oil off my hands and grabbed up my stoutest Jo. Then I held it so the dog could see the length of it while giving him my hardest glare. It worked this time and he ran off with his tail between his legs.

The next day when I came home from class my Mom told me that the dog was part of a pack of three that had tried to kill her dogs while I was away. First one of them pushed aside a section of the privacy fence along the back of our property trying to get to my Mom. Later while she was taking her two shetlands out to do their business she looked over to see them in our neighbors backyard and trying to get over the chainlink fence to get at my mom's dogs. Our neighbor's backyard is enclosed with a chainlink fence to keep in their large rottweiler (nicest dog you would want to meet) and after my Mom chased them out of our yard with a handy garden tool (I don't know what it is called but it is nasty and sharp) they jumped over the fence into the neighborhood and took off.

The police and animal control have been looking for the pack for the past few days and I have been escorting the dogs for their constitutionals with my Saiga held ready while my Mom uses an old fashioned police billy club when I am not around.

Chipperman said: I have yet to be bitten by a Pit Bull

Trust me man cross it off your to do list.

Jim March
September 26, 2003, 01:14 AM
http://www.ferretocious.com/Oliver56.jpg

:D

greyhound
September 26, 2003, 08:56 AM
though the trooper I spoke with didn't seem to like the idea

Could the Maryland State Police be the most anti-gun police force in the nation? Certainly they are right up there.

Good grief they don't even think you should be able to carry ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY?:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

DorGunR
September 26, 2003, 09:07 AM
Jim March
What is that thing that appears to be attacking that dog.:confused:

Kharn
September 26, 2003, 10:23 AM
DorGunR:
Its a ferret.

Kharn

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