Carry guns going off?


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Hot brass
September 23, 2003, 06:01 PM
I want to have the wife get a CCW, and get her a carry gun. She likes the size of the med frame Glocks. I read of an undercover cop carrying a Glock and when he went to sit down he adjusted the gun and shot himself in the arse. At one time I thought of buying a Glock but reading stories like this keeps me away from the guns with no external safety.

Not knocking the Glock, I think they look nice and function well. But the safety issue bothers me. I think a SA XD 9mm for the wife, and then an XD 40 next, unless SA is going to do the XD in 45acp? Any comments?
Glock, XD in 45acp?

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spacemanspiff
September 23, 2003, 06:09 PM
if any gun goes off negligently, it is labeled 'operator error'.

TallPine
September 23, 2003, 06:09 PM
Double action revolver

RTFM
September 23, 2003, 06:10 PM
^^^^^
What TallPine said!!

.45Ruger
September 23, 2003, 06:12 PM
If you are conerned of a situation like that happening to you or yours maybe a gun with an esternal safety might be something to consider. The XD like the GLOCK has no external safety although the combinantion of Grip, Firing Pin and Trigger Safeties make any ND like that darn near impossible but I would say that about GLOCK as well. I've heard of an XD .45 for sometime next year.

bogie
September 23, 2003, 06:56 PM
If you adjust your carry piece with your finger inside the trigger guard, well...

El Tejon
September 23, 2003, 07:04 PM
Rule #3!

Education before the weapon so as not to get the cart before the horse.:)

jsalcedo
September 23, 2003, 07:04 PM
There have been 33 documented incidents in the last 5 years of cops unintentionally discharging glock pistols either wounding themselves or a bystander.

In almost all cases part of the holster, clothing or gear was in the trigger guard pressing on the trigger as the gun was being reholstered.

I'm sure other types of service pistols are negligently discharged but probably for far more stupid reasons.

I'm not sure if a glock would be a first choice for someone who hasn't carried before. Although after some experience and practice it may be very suitable.

Black Snowman
September 23, 2003, 07:05 PM
A glock isn't intended to be carried with a round in the chamber. With practice the time saved in not having to rack the slide while drawing the weapon doesn't offset the additional risk of AD or ND. Even with an external or manual safety things can and will go wrong.

Murphy's law makes me not trust carrying any gun with a chambered round.

YMMV

Thumper
September 23, 2003, 07:06 PM
A glock is only gonna go off if you pull the trigger.

Story: Athens-Clarke County, Ga. cop had an ND. He claimed he was reholstering and thumb-break got inside the trigger guard. Fine.

He starts spouting this story at the gun store I worked in..."never buy a glock." Got me to thinking. No holster co. lawsuit?

So I dig out a Safariland SSIII and an empty G19 (the equipment in question) and try my best to replicate his discharge. Every possible angle...gun in one hand, holster in the other. No dice.

I privately offered him $100 bucks if he could make the striker fall with the thumb-break. He couldn't. We're still friends, but boy was he red faced.

The only way to bypass the 3 inherent safeties (unless you cook it off in a furnace) in a functional Glock is to pull the trigger.

DorGunR
September 23, 2003, 07:06 PM
Posted by Hot brass
Not knocking the Glock, I think they look nice and function well.

Function well, yes........but the Glock has to be the most ugly gun in the world.:D

SAG0282
September 23, 2003, 07:10 PM
While I do not own a Glock, I do have some reasonably extensive experience firing them (most of my friends like them more then other manufacturers) and I'm inclined to chalk up those discharge stories to nothing more then operator error. I've yet to encounter any malfunctions while firing any Glock, and it has never fired unless I've consciously pulled the trigger. If your wife is aware of the slightly higher chance of an AD and is trained on how to minimize/avoid a scenario like that, the weapon should work marvelously for her IMVVHO.

Flashpoint
September 23, 2003, 07:12 PM
If she likes the mid-size Glock-like handguns but wants an external safty, look into the Steyr M9 it has a manuel safty inside the triger guard. Then practice the rules of gun safety, most every gun will "go off" when the trigger is pulled.

El Tejon
September 23, 2003, 07:12 PM
Thumper, good for you. That's very clever!!!

I used to hear the same cover stories at IPD about how S&W M66s were all "defective" in that they would fire while reholstered or "cleaning" (one revolver shot a air compressor at the range).:rolleyes: I would just shake my head and mutter something about the lack of quality in American manufacturing.:D

Wish I would have thought to do that!

nemesis
September 23, 2003, 07:21 PM
Blacksnowman wrote.......

A glock isn't intended to be carried with a round in the chamber. With practice the time saved in not having to rack the slide while drawing the weapon doesn't offset the additional risk of AD or ND. Even with an external or manual safety things can and will go wrong.

That is definitely the safe way to carry a pistol.

My personal preference is to carry the cartridges in my left side pocket. Then when I need my pistol quickly, I just grap the mag from my right pocket and quickly insert the cartridges from my left pocket. After that, grab your pistol, insert magazine, rack slide and you're ready for anything.

On the other hand, I normally carry with 7 rounds of Golden Sabre 185 +P in the mag and one more up the spout. I don't have time for screwin' around when the fight is on.

Checkman
September 23, 2003, 07:31 PM
the last time I went through firearms training (a couple of months ago) the instructors all advised that one carry a round in the spout in any new/modern automatic. I carry both the Sig 220 and the Sig 245 and there is always a round in the chamber. As a cop I don't have time to be messing around with the slide. When I need that weapon to go I need it to go now.

Ala Dan
September 23, 2003, 07:59 PM
Anytime I carry a self-loader, I carry it with a round chambered !:D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

goalie
September 23, 2003, 08:10 PM
If you carry a Glock I have one word for you: Kydex.

tiberius
September 23, 2003, 08:22 PM
A glock isn't intended to be carried with a round in the chamber

If you leave it at home locked in the safe it probably won't go off either, but what's the point. I'm not a Glocksman myself, but the gun is perfectly safe as long as the user is as well.

Quartus
September 23, 2003, 08:24 PM
most every gun will "go off" when the trigger is pulled.



Yeah, they're nasty that way.


:D

tiberius
September 23, 2003, 08:31 PM
most every gun will "go off" when the trigger is pulled.


Well, the GOOD ones anyway :)

jsalcedo
September 23, 2003, 09:11 PM
most every gun will "go off" when the trigger is pulled.

Not my Davis P380. It is 50% less likely to accidentally discharge than most other pistols.

That makes my Davis one of the safest guns going :evil:

jar
September 23, 2003, 09:23 PM
Hot Brass

One key thing when it comes to women and handguns is the pocketbook. I here people constantly talk about getting a gun for the wife(friend, girlfriend, sister...) to carry in her purse.

A worse environment for a handgun than a purse simply could not be developed. Just look inside one once and count all the things just waiting to get inside the trigger guard.

SO...

After all the hype about this model or that model settles, look for a good holster for her to use. It could be a pocket holster, conventional one, even one designed to go into that purse. But get something that will protect the gun, and keep it handy so she can actually use it.

Contact some of the women that frequent this board. They really know their stuff and will give you great advice.

Flashpoint
September 23, 2003, 09:48 PM
"most every gun will "go off" when the trigger is pulled."

I knew someone would jump on that.:D


What Jar said is very true.

You might want to look about getting her a purse made to carry a firearm. That would make it accessable and keep the trigger clear of lipstick and car keys. If she's like my wife she would jump at another reason to buy a new purse.

C.R.Sam
September 23, 2003, 09:59 PM
Jar speak good.
Holster a must in purse or pocket.
Have retrieved quite a bit of junk from purse guns.

One was a primary revolver and it could not be fired single OR double action. She had been undercover for a year and had not fired that gun the whole time.

Nelphs from pockets can clog em too. Buddy had to strip and clean a Colt 1991 the other day that was rendered inoperative by junk.

Sam

tiberius
September 23, 2003, 10:01 PM
Nelphs from pockets can clog em too. Buddy had to strip and clean a Colt 1991 the other day that was rendered inoperative by junk.

Now that's a pocket gun!

WonderNine
September 23, 2003, 10:08 PM
The only way to bypass the 3 inherent safeties (unless you cook it off in a furnace) in a functional Glock is to pull the trigger.

That's what manual safeties are for. For when the one between your ears fails. And it gives you piece of mind. AND it's there so that the trigger cannot be bumped. I can't imagine trying to fastdraw a chambered Glock in a stressful situation. All too easy to put a nice hole in yourself or discharge the gun before you intend. Not good...not good.

aerod1
September 23, 2003, 10:37 PM
He said the Glock looked nice? WAHAHAHA!! WAHAHAHA!! So does Janet Reno WAHAHAHA!!

Jim Hall

Hot brass
September 23, 2003, 11:23 PM
So does Janet Reno WAHAHAHA!! aerod1, thats going tooooo far.



:barf: :barf:

I like the holster purse idea. Thanks, I carry daily (1911) one in the chamber, and the safeties on the 1911 is a comfort.

Teufelhunden
September 24, 2003, 12:16 AM
I can't imagine trying to fastdraw a chambered Glock in a stressful situation. All too easy to put a nice hole in yourself or discharge the gun before you intend. Not good...not good.

Either of these scenarios can result from lack of practice and/or training. I can't speak for everyone, but my trigger finger is along the frame until I have completed my draw (as dictated by the scenario) and have identified my target. When I go into scan mode, my finger is along the frame. In short, default mode for me is along the frame, not in the trigger guard, and it has thus far served me well.

-Teuf

Abominable No-Man
September 24, 2003, 12:36 AM
This really isn't in line with the topic, but what about someone messing with the trigger system itself? I read a story once about a guy who had a
trigger job done on his series 80 Colt and carried it in a shoulder holster with everything going (round in the chamber and safety off), and when he would jolt it hard enough, the hammer would fall. Don't know if it's true or not.

ANM

clin4580
September 24, 2003, 12:46 AM
Fine motor skills degrade in stressful situations.I for one don't want to try to rack the slide while bringing up on target.I think if someone is uncomfortable carrying round chambered they probably shouldn't be carrying in the first place.

C.R.Sam
September 24, 2003, 01:42 AM
ANM...
that would be a broken gun.
Smithed by negligent smith.
Hence...negligent discharge.

Sam

Black Snowman
September 24, 2003, 01:45 AM
If I wasn't as confident in my ability to avoid danger or if I was in a situation where it were likely I would have to act very quickly or one handed I would want to carry cocked and locked. However, I'm very good at not putting myself in dangerous situations where I'm forced to react that quickly.

The most likely scenerio for me to have to draw a CCW would be in defense of someone else, or in defense of my home where I have time to chamber that round without taking fire.

If I'm jumped unaware by someone who knows what they're doing they're just about as likely to get to my gun as fast as I can, while they strugle to get the gun out of it's holser and rack the slide (after discovering the trigger doesn't do anything) I should have alredy stabbed them several times with my handy dandy knife ;)

If someone brings me under gunpoint and doesn't shoot me outright then I've somehow gotten into a very bad situation I should have seen coming. I don't make much of a target. I don't dress lavishly, I don't carry a lot of cash, cell-phones aren't worth jack anymore, and I don't make enemies in my personal life or my work.

Now, if I were going into an unavoidable situation where I knew I'd be at heightened risk, I'd chamber a round for the extra edge. I'm not AFRAID to run with a round in the chamber, just don't feel it's worth it for the environment I'm in day to day.

DontShootMe
September 24, 2003, 02:01 AM
http://www.dentrinity.com/ClarenceLai/Img/Glock2000_1.jpg

PURDY !!!

DMK
September 24, 2003, 10:48 AM
DontShootMe, that gun reminds me of Battlestar Galactica :D

Checkman
September 24, 2003, 11:02 AM
Black Snowman-

Okay I guess it's a matter of choice. I understand what you're saying and if you feel comfortable with that then go for it. I know some folks would rag you non-stop about that, but I was told many years ago that shooting is %95 percent mental and 5 percent physical.

There was a recent posting about trigger pulls as well. I can tell you that approximately twenty-six years ago in my home town in Idaho there was a local police officer who did a little shadetree gunsmithing on his Smith and Wesson Model 28. He lightened the trigger pull. Late one night a nutcase walked into the municipal/county building with a 45 and a grudge.

The officer won that little fracas but it took approximately a dozen pulls on the trigger before a round went off and took the bad guy down.

I know this officer. The next day he went out and bought a brand new Model 28. He never messed with anything except for putting on Pachmayer grips.

tac17
September 24, 2003, 03:36 PM
Either of these scenarios can result from lack of practice and/or training. I can't speak for everyone, but my trigger finger is along the frame until I have completed my draw (as dictated by the scenario) and have identified my target. When I go into scan mode, my finger is along the frame. In short, default mode for me is along the frame, not in the trigger guard, and it has thus far served me well.

That has worked for me and my dangerous Glocks as well. :D

One of the most undervalued features on a Glock is that lovely indentation in the frame where the slide lock is located. It makes such a nice place to index your trigger finger on when not on the trigger.

Mattkc
September 24, 2003, 05:54 PM
When my dept. switched to Glocks it made me mad. I had been packing a 66 for many years and had heard all the stories about Glocks. By the time I got through the transition coarse I was in love with the Glock. No ADs or fullauto fire just a lot of fire power. I finally hit the streets without the feeling I was under gunned. My dept. installed the "New York Trigger". While the stronger trigger pull is safer it does hurt accuracy. I believe one reason we had no problems was the intensive training coarse we went through for several days. We carry baby Glocks off duty and the only time one was discharged was into a robbery suspect. The problem I see with women carring weapons is they put it in their purse. I don't Know how many times I took reports from women who have been attacked and couldn't get to a gun, mace, or knife in thier purse.

Obiwan
September 24, 2003, 06:08 PM
Glocks are perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered.

Not all People are perfectly safe when carrying with a round chambered

Training is the key...safety is an illusion

Thumper
September 24, 2003, 07:04 PM
That's what manual safeties are for. For when the one between your ears fails. And it gives you piece of mind. AND it's there so that the trigger cannot be bumped. I can't imagine trying to fastdraw a chambered Glock in a stressful situation. All too easy to put a nice hole in yourself or discharge the gun before you intend. Not good...not good.

I can only assume you're joking.

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