Anyone else refuse to use the safety?


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Cosmoline
September 23, 2003, 07:33 PM
I never use the safety on any firearm I own, and I lean toward firearms with no independent safety switch, such as revolvers. To me the risk of forgetting is just too great, one way or the other. My go-to firearm I typically leave open or half-open, ready to chamber a round. But there's something about chambering a round before being ready to shoot that makes me highly nervous, and something about setting a firearm down with a live round in it makes me even more nervous. I would never dream of putting a "cocked and locked" firearm on my person.

Frankly I'd prefer to physically remove the safety from all my firearms. Am I crazy?

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Tamara
September 23, 2003, 07:36 PM
...on my carry gun. The gun on my hip right now has a round in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is on.


Just out of curiousity, how long have you been toting? (I'm wondering if there might be a relationship between the two; I started carrying a Glock very reluctantly back in '93 or '94. "What?!? A round in the chamber and no safety?" It took me a while to get used to that concept. :uhoh: )

tiberius
September 23, 2003, 07:53 PM
Depends on the gun. I absolutely hate superfluous safeties (Like Beretta or S&W - I guess they were originated by Walther) but my most confident carry method is condition 1 - with either a 1911 variant or my newly acquired CZ 75B. DAO and decockers are acceptable, if less desirable. Frankly, I think the CZ 75 has the perfect action, even though the 1911 has a better trigger.

I sort of agree with you because I will not personally carry a gun with an unnecessary safely and have removed then from my small DA Berettas (M20 and Tomcat) because I found that they were often unintentionally engaged and were sort of difficult to swipe off on draw.

Cosmoline
September 23, 2003, 07:56 PM
I've only recently started carrying a handgun, but I cut my teeth on old single action revolvers and H&R single shots. With these, there is no safety latch. The first firearm I owned with a safety latch was a Remington shotgun, with the safety toggle down by the trigger where it can't be seen. The very notion of going around with a round chambered in that beast, safety unseen, scared the crap out of me and I sold the shotgun. The only reason I can think of is to unload certain types of firearms--like a levergun--that are difficult to unload without cycling the action in and out.

Mossberg's tang safety is better, but I still don't use it. I honestly don't see the point in most safeties. Certainly there's not much point for a long gun, and carrying cocked and locked always seemed questionable to me.

El Tejon
September 23, 2003, 08:00 PM
Well, if you incorporate Rule #3 there just might not be any reason to use the safety.:p

Mechanical safeties are utilized through training, but can fail. On-board brain safeties are utilized through training, but must be trained up.

In a word, training. I put two "cocked and locked" weapons on my person. I do not fear my weapons as my brain controls them and my education guides my brain.

DMK
September 23, 2003, 08:01 PM
I use the safety on all guns that have them (except Mosin-Nagants!). I've never tried to fire without having released the safety. Flicking the safety is just habit with me. I even love the little "snick" sound when you flick them off.

The weird thing is I never seem to miss them on revolvers though. Good thing too, because I'd probably drop the cylinder open if I did.

Hkmp5sd
September 23, 2003, 08:18 PM
I do not use the safety on any firearm I am CCWing. I do, in some isolated cases and situations, apply the safety temporarily while performing some actions, such as climbing with a rifle slung.

Futo Inu
September 23, 2003, 08:27 PM
You're not crazy. Not much more crazy than me anyhow, contrary to what people think, when I tell them I want the manual safety on a 1911 or similar stronger, not looser, and have paid gunsmiths to perform same.

Your methods eliminate misplaced reliance / undue confidence. I don't have a problem with some reliance on them to prevent non-intentional-PULL-NDs (as opposed to intentional-pull-but-not-intentional-fire NDs), *IFF* I've tested that, in my ordinary course of events, the safety is strong enough to not have an accidental disengagement.

Shawn Dodson
September 23, 2003, 08:45 PM
Are you sure your safety lever will always be in the position you expect it to be in? Your day could easily be ruined if you draw your gun in an emergency and press the trigger only to have it not fire. And because you've conditioned yourself to assume that the safety is always disengaged, you'll stand there wondering why your gun didn't go BOOM when you pressed the trigger.

I carried a Beretta 96FS on patrol with the safety engaged. The reason I carried it this way is because it forced me to disengage it whenever I presented my handgun in an emergency. However I found that getting in an out of a cruiser, as well as snapping the thumb snap on my holster would sometimes move the safety lever from engaged to disengaged (Especially when exiting the jail in a hurry to assist another officer. Firearms aren't allowed in the jail by state law. Therfore I had to unholster and lock my Beretta in either my trunk or a lock box.).

I discovered this problem while dry-firing one day. Because I had trained and conditioned myself to assume that the safety is always engaged, when I went through the action to disengage the safety I sensed something was wrong; I didn't have "normal" tactile feedback. I immediately stopped and looked at my handgun to determine what was "wrong." It was then I noticed that my safety was already disengaged.

As I thought about the situation I realized I'd trained myself to incorrectly sense the feel of the safety with my thumb. My solution? I experimented and found that by merely sliding my thumb along the top of the grip panel, and conditioning myself to this feel, that the action would always disengage the safety. The technique was insensitive to the position of the manual safety lever -- it didn't matter if the safety was engaged or disengaged.

Regardless of what method you choose to carry, manual safety engaged or not, you should always go through the motion to positively ensure it is DISengaged when you perform your defensive draw stroke.

C.R.Sam
September 23, 2003, 09:04 PM
Depends ...
on the nature of the gun
and what I have in mind.

Like El Tejon says...
Primary safety is the brain.
Make sure it works properly.

Sam

GD
September 23, 2003, 09:18 PM
I know a lot of people that do not use the safety on the Mosin Nagant rifles because they think they are too hard to apply. I have never had trouble using the MN safety and routinely use it. I find it very quiet to set and take off which is important in hunting and it reassures me on the range as I employ all the safety rules I know in addition to having the safety on. Maybe it just takes certain muscles to apply the MN safety and I have those muscles?
A safety is never an excuse to violate any other safety rule.

Quartus
September 23, 2003, 09:30 PM
Am I crazy?


Possibly. Possibly misinformed or insufficiently educated or trained.




To me the risk of forgetting is just too great, one way or the other.

With proper (sufficient) training, you don't remember - you DO. Do you remember how to ride a bicycle? No, you just ride it.

Graystar
September 23, 2003, 09:35 PM
Frankly I'd prefer to physically remove the safety from all my firearms. Am I crazy? Only about that not-chambering-a-round part. Otherwise, I completely agree. I never use the the safeties on my guns. When I carried, I carried a Glock with one in the chamber.

MeekandMild
September 23, 2003, 09:53 PM
I tend to agree with the sentiment. I think a rifle is safer carried with the bolt back and believe that pistols without an external safety are safer because they force you to think instead of depending on a device.

All this started many years ago when I came close to an AD with a 1911. Even the Sig decocker gives me the creeps.

EJ
September 23, 2003, 10:11 PM
As several have pointed out-- It depends on the weapon--

Pump shotguns used in squad cars or for home defense should never have their safeties activated in stand by mode-- Empty chamber only--

Course -- I don't think the safety is a bad idea to have once a round is chambered--

Black Snowman
September 23, 2003, 10:12 PM
I don't (can't) CCW yet. But I prefer to not have a round in the chamber and to have consistant trigger pulls. That's why I started on my Glock when I got serious about shooting. I wanted to learn good gun handling without being reliant on a safety. Murphy's Law and all.

I'd trust a revolver in a carry situation with the hammer on a loaded chamber but I'd prefer to have a thumb break covering the hammer although as long as you are using a holster it's pretty much a non-issue. I wouldn't want to drop one in a pocket though.

jsalcedo
September 23, 2003, 10:29 PM
I've recently been carrying my VZOR 70 everywhere.

The safety is counter intuitive (very stiff click upwards) this is very difficult to do in haste as it takes most of my thumb strength to move that tiny lever in (for me at least) the wrong direction.

Since the VZOR is double action with at least a 14 pound DA pull and a
8lb single I finally resolved to carry it safety off hammer down.

firestar
September 23, 2003, 11:29 PM
I have been carrying for just over ten years and I am not crazy about the idea of cocked and locked either. I am VERY slowly getting used to the concept but I learned on revolvers and DA/SA autos. The only SA autos I had owned until 2-3 years ago were Ruger .22lr pistols. I didn't grow up with 1911s and BHPs like many did.

I don't know if I will ever really get used to the idea of cocked and locked and I am not sure I want to. I feel that a DA/SA pistol with a de-cocker and no safety is as good as it gets in semi-auto.

One interesting point I have to make is, Cosmoline wrote:
To me the risk of forgetting is just too great, one way or the other.

I feel the same way but I react in the opposite way. I always keep the safety on a handgun that has a safety. I am afraid that if I don't get used to always flicking the safety off, someday the safety might get turned on without me knowing it and when the time comes that I need the gun in a hurry, it won't shoot and I won't know why until it is too late. I love my Beretta 92FS but if it had a de-cock lever instead of a safety, it would be perfect. SIG has the basic concept down but their guns don't fit me well.

jsalcedo
September 23, 2003, 11:43 PM
When I first started carrying I was scared to death of cocked and locked
because I had only fired old worn out 1911s where the safety didn't feel
too secure.

Now I'm used to condition one but with extended ambi safeties they sometimes get knocked off safe when I get up sit down or bump against my car door etc...

tetleyb
September 23, 2003, 11:46 PM
I carry a Sig P226 on/off duty. No safety on it. However, if I carried a handgun with a safety, I would have it engaged.

When I carry a long gun, AR or shotgun, I always have the safety engaged. I train to turn the safety off, as I engage a target. I also train others, when someone goes down, the FIRST thing you do is engage their mechanical safety.

You would be surprised how long guns and even hand guns get caught up on gear; buckles, tie downs, slings, and the like.

clin4580
September 23, 2003, 11:54 PM
If I carry the Hi-Power the safety is on.I don't own a Beretta or S&W semi but if I did I don't think I could reliably operate the upward moving safety, They suppose to go down like JMB designed.

sm
September 24, 2003, 12:05 AM
Anyone else refuse to use the safety?
NO, umm ...my thumb is accustomed to having a rest. ;)
My first carry guns were 1911's and BHP's. so ingrained is the C&L and "snicking off " safety, I "snick" off the non-existent safety on revolvers.
The difference for me is high thumbs on semi's, low thumbs on revo's...still part of my thumb rides the safety, or thumb latch on revo's.

Now on a Glock, or a Keltec P-11, oh I still "snick" the non-existent safety off, just nothing to rest my thumb on. ;)

Years of habit I guess. Have stayed with pretty much the same platforms for too long. Safety's and cylinders "that turn the wrong way"...I don't own, much less carry.

In a stressful situation I do what is ingrained, if I "snick off" a revo,or Keltec P-11 for instance, it'll still go bang just like the C&L 1911 style.

"repetition becomes habit-habit becomes faith" I guess is how I feel.

10-Ring
September 24, 2003, 12:22 AM
I don't use the safeties on my HK's or my Berettas & when I carry, it's round chambered, hammer decocked.

Skunkabilly
September 24, 2003, 12:43 AM
I have to use it on my P7M8...can't walk around all day with my hand around the thing :D

rugerfreak
September 24, 2003, 01:02 AM
My Steyr M9---you bet---that was the reason I bought it for and stopped carrying the Glock---which always made me a bit nervous---even with the trigger covered.


Bolt action rifles while hunting?? no way-------just leave the bolt handle lifted until I'm ready for the shot.

HD shotgun---nope----empty chamber and full magazine----just pump and shoot.

Old Fuff
September 24, 2003, 10:05 AM
Sam's comment about having one's brain as any firearms' principal safety is correct. Safe handling is a conbination of thinking, training and practice.

In your case, given you perspectives, I would keep or carry a double-action revolver with an internal mechanical safety rather then a pistol that depended on a manual one.

I would carry long-guns with the chamber empty and not chamber a round until I was about too use it.

I would not remove mechanical or manual safeties. This could prove to be counter productive for a number of reasons, and the above methods would make this questionable practice unnecessary.

Okiecruffler
September 24, 2003, 10:09 AM
I don't want any manual safety on my carry gun, but at the same time I will only carry DAO guns. Tried to carry cocked and locked, and was always worrying about the silly thing.

Sean Smith
September 24, 2003, 10:31 AM
Well, the worrying part was silly anyway... :D

Augustwest
September 24, 2003, 11:58 AM
The gun on my hip right now has a round ...

How 'bout the one on yer left hip? And the ankle rigs? :D

Mostly carry wheelguns, so other than the one between my ears, safeties aren't an usually issue.

You can bet that my autochuckers, especially those that are carried cocked, are locked as well...

tac17
September 24, 2003, 02:26 PM
But there's something about chambering a round before being ready to shoot that makes me highly nervous, and something about setting a firearm down with a live round in it makes me even more nervous. I would never dream of putting a "cocked and locked" firearm on my person.
Don't put your finger on the trigger when you aren't supposed to and they don't go boom.

I carry a Glock, with a round chambered, 14 or 15 hours a day. I have carried in that same way for the last 6 years. It has never once went off on it's own. I have carried 1911 style pistols cocked and locked a good bit as well, none of them every went boom on their own either. If you follow the rules then it plenty safe to carry your pistol cocked and locked.

Cosmoline
September 24, 2003, 02:35 PM
now that I think about it, the Mosin Nagant safety is the ONLY one I use! :D Am I going against the grain or what? I trust it because it absolutely locks the main spring back against the receiver, and because there's no doubt whether it's on or off. Also, with over 20 lbs of force it ain't gonna get flicked on and off going through underbrush.

Obiwan
September 24, 2003, 02:51 PM
If you have a safety you are crazy NOT to use it

As stated before...you are obliged to disengage it every time you draw....
so it might as well be engaged to begin with....in fact it should be.

But...if you do not like using a safety...switch to weapons that don't have one.

Glock, Kahr, Revolvers, etc.

I recently rid myself of all my DA/SA handguns for this very reason.

Mike Irwin
September 24, 2003, 03:23 PM
I'm primarily a revolver shoot.

No safety to use.

New_comer
September 24, 2003, 07:33 PM
I carry hammer down, safety off.


DA first shot doesn't bother me. ;)

Schuey2002
September 24, 2003, 07:40 PM
I carry a Glock 19.

And I absolutely REFUSE to use that Gawd-awful factory thumb safety!!

.
.
.
.

Oh, right. It doesn't have one. My bad. :uhoh:

355sigfan
September 24, 2003, 09:24 PM
never use the safety on any firearm I own, and I lean toward firearms with no independent safety switch, such as revolvers. To me the risk of forgetting is just too great,
END

You will do what you train. If you don't train and you pull a gun with a safety on it you may well not flip it off. The flip side is with point and pull weapons like revolvers, sigs and glocks is that if the bad guy gets it all he will have to do to kill you is point and pull. I am not strongly for one system or the other. I prefer the 1911 because its a simple gun to shoot well under stress. It has a short trigger reset, low bore axis and its chambered in very formidable calibers. There is nothing wrong with cocked and locked. In some ways its safer than carrying a da revolver. If you have a safety its best to use it. The only exception would be da autos where it does not need to be used. Where its use only adds to the weapons retention capabilitys. With single action weapons such as 1911's AR15's shotguns ext its best to use the safety.
Pat

Standing Wolf
September 24, 2003, 11:30 PM
Frankly I'd prefer to physically remove the safety from all my firearms. Am I crazy?

I wouldn't say so. I never use the safeties on my .22 caliber semi-automatic pistols. On the rare occasions when I carry my model 1911, I sometimes flick the thumb rest up, sometimes don't bother. I've never trusted mechanical safety mechanisms, and never will. The only safety I trust is the shooter.

Zach S
September 25, 2003, 11:34 AM
I carry a C&Led 1911 or an LDA, and I use mine. Someone noticed I swipe the safety off on all guns as if it were there when gripping it. Even on glocks, so i dont worry about missing it, since I hit it even if when not there.

If i carried a beretta 92, i wouldnt use the safety. Did they not notice it was backwards when they designed the gun?

AUTIGER04
September 25, 2003, 12:41 PM
All of my handguns are DA/SA I never use the safety.

Abominable No-Man
September 26, 2003, 09:34 AM
Once in a blue moon I carry mine, usually on cross-country trips. My pistols are DA/SA, so it's one round in the chamber, thumb safety on. DA first shot isn't a problem.

ANM

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