Self Defense questions


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HANDLOADER
December 21, 2008, 08:16 PM
Tonight has beeen a night full of discussion. And it all surronded self defense. It went well up until the bible thumper of the group brought up the livinng with killing a human being. Then it went to "if you use a gun in self defense you are the CRIMINAL" not your said attacker. So then we made a discussion out of Kentuckys castle doctrine. I am not very well informed on the doctrine and am looking for the whole doctrine instead of tid bits here and there so if you can help me in my quest for the whole doctrine I would be most grateful. Then the conversation turned to the act of shooting your attacker. The bible thumper said that you would be taken off to jail and charged with murder. I said would it not be man slaughter due to the fact that you did not plan or even think about killing the attacker. I have never been involved in a shooting and hope I will never be but if I am one day involved in a situation that requires me to use deadly force in order to protect myself or my family from a attacker or attacker's what should I expect to happen to me. The part about being taken to jail and charged with murder or manslaughter after defending yourself does not sound right but who am I to say if it is or not as I said I have never been involved in a shooting before nor do I know any one who has been involved in a self defense shooting. So I guss my questions are as following:


1. Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky.
2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.
4.After the shooting what should be told to police. I seem to reamber that either Client Smith or Massad Ayoob did a video or wrote a article about what steps should be taken after the shooting has take place so if you can point me in the direction of this article I would be grateful.

So please if you can help in my search for knowledge please help. Thank you agian

GOD BLESS US ALL
Merry Christmas to you and your family
Happy Holidays to the politicaly correct

THanks again

Handloader

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larry_minn
December 21, 2008, 09:32 PM
Sorry I don't know laws in your state. I am sure others will post them.

Regards religion. The comandment is NOT "Thou shall not kill" It is (properly translated) Thou shall not commit MURDER. (ok not exact but the closest English word)
The Bible makes clear that SELF DEFENSE is allowed. "Let he that has no sword sell his cloak and puchase one" (note I am going from memory so may not be EXACT on wording)

castle doctrine normally means that you do NOT have to flee from your own home. MN used to be that you were supposed to flea from your own home IF it was safe to do so. Well I could never see how I could safely flee from a attacker who could have others outside rather then stay bunkered down in secure area where the threat has to come thru a narrow funnel. (so IMO not a issue)

So #1 someone else will answer (or look it up yourself)
#2 It depends (and you may have to change them before Police show up) :) JK Lets make some assumptions. IF you called Police early/they were on line/enroute and dispatch relayed "homeowner has his family in bedroom I can hear him telling person chopping down door with axe that he has called the Police, he is armed, and they should leave" Later dispatch says "They just broke down door and homeowner shot him... He is asking for Ambulance but suspect is down"
I would (HOPE) you would be treated fairly well. The gun WILL (very likely) be taken. Depending on area.


Now if Police get call of crazy guy shooting people at your address. They get there and you are yelling at body on your sidewalk. (waving gun around) "You wanted some of this and look what it got you" They may take a more authoritarian line.

#4 take some training... The best is to give LIMITED info to Police (if you can do that) Try to get your wife to be careful as well. "I thought that man was going to KILL us, We locked the doors and my husband begged them to leave but they kept comming"
You should say even less. You WILL be in shock. Mentioning that maybe you should go to Hospital/not feeling well. Mention that you understand the Police/others all recomend that a person not give a statement right after so you will take that advice and come in to station tomarrow to make full statement (and bring lawyer)

JDoe
December 21, 2008, 09:37 PM
1. Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky. (http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/050.PDF)

503.050 Use of physical force in self-protection -- Admissibility of evidence of prior
acts of domestic violence and abuse.

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the
defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against the use or
imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person.

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable
under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary
to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual
intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving the use of force, or under
those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.

(3) Any evidence presented by the defendant to establish the existence of a prior act or
acts of domestic violence and abuse as defined in KRS 403.720 by the person
against whom the defendant is charged with employing physical force shall be
admissible under this section.

(4) A person does not have a duty to retreat prior to the use of deadly physical force.

Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Amended 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 3, effective July 12, 2006. -- Amended
1992 Ky. Acts ch. 173, sec. 2, effective July 14, 1992. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts
ch. 406, sec. 30, effective January 1, 1975.

You can find more Kentucky law here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Law.htm

crebralfix
December 21, 2008, 09:50 PM
Murder = killing for personal gain or satisfaction

The distinction is made in the Bible and in law.

XavierBreath
December 21, 2008, 10:05 PM
Then it went to "if you use a gun in self defense you are the CRIMINAL" not your said attacker. This kind of thing often happens when a person mixes up the concepts of legality and morality.

Each person must chose his own stand on the relevant issues from within himself. If he is convicted, or if he walks free, he can never give back a life he has taken. He must come to terms with the reality of taking a life himself, often alone, and with a lot of self righteous know-it-alls who have never been in his shoes judging him and telling him how he should think and feel.

Let's not turn this discussion into a religious debate, or it will be closed.

I can answer a couple of questions. 2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
There are no steps. Expect the officers to gain control of the scene and all witnesses. If anyone needs medical help, expect EMS to be summoned. Expect to be cuffed, interviewed, and expect to remain in police custody until they release you. It is advisable to make certain they know you were attacked, and ask to speak to your attorney. "He attacked me. I was in fear for my life. I would like to speak to my attorney before I answer any further questions."

3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.This can vary wildly even within the same state. A DA may be looking for a hard stance on crime to get re-elected. Those unseen forces can swing in your favor, or against you. It is best to look at cases in your area, and if possible, sit in on the legal portion of a ccw course in your area where the local DA discusses these things.

Old Guy
December 21, 2008, 10:12 PM
This works, your Sister is in the house, she hears a terrible screaming coming from the gravel path, where her friend was heading for the front door.

Two men are attacking her friend on that self same gravel, she is on the ground, her face is bloody, most of her clothes are ripped off already, her Brothers pistol is in the drawer loaded... And she does what?

chris in va
December 22, 2008, 01:27 AM
Calls 911, of course!

deanf
December 22, 2008, 12:35 PM
You need to read Defending the Self Defense Case (http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=[/url).

Kleanbore
December 22, 2008, 12:57 PM
From deanf : You need to read Defending the Self Defense Case.

Yes, and these:

http://www.useofforce.us/

http://www.corneredcat.com/

gregormeister
December 22, 2008, 02:34 PM
I would say that in a case of self defense where I was to have to inflict bodily injury/death on a person who was trying to take the life of my family or myself...then I don't care what god has to say because to me family is first and foremost to me.

God can judge me after I die of natural causes.

Mr_Rogers
December 22, 2008, 03:05 PM
You know, there is barely a religious teaching that has made it past a couple of generations, certainly not a thousand years, before it is being "interpreted" by the the establishment to tell us what the founder REALLY meant. This is seen in Islam, Christianity and Hinduism just to mention some of the major religions.

When will people accept that the interpretations of the religious establishment, and their editing of the written word, are just as suspect and self-serving as the laws made by politicians and Kings. These interpretations and laws are made to produce one end - the wealth, authority and power of the establishment. Thanks to the brave individuals who fought against the corruption of established religion - however, you will note that many of them ended up before the Inquisition or burned at the stake.

Just One Shot
December 22, 2008, 07:22 PM
While I am not surprised I am saddened by the negative under tones of some of the comments in the OP and the replies. As a Christian and a Deacon I'm not going to turn this into a religious debate so I'll just refer you to this:


Here are some answers to often asked questions of anti-gunners
By Massad Ayoob


"How can one morally keep a lethal weapon when the Fifth Commandment states, “Thou shalt not kill?”


That’s not what it actually says. Biblical scholars seem unanimously agreed that in the original Hebrew, the commandment said, “Lo Tirtzah, Thou shalt not commit murder,” i.e., thou shalt not kill with evil intent.

This is not an exclusively Judeo-Christian ethos. The Bible, the Talmud, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon all make it clear that there are times when it is both justifiable and necessary for the good to use lethal force against the evil.

Provisions for justifiable homicide have existed in every body of law in the history of civilized Man: the Code of Hammurabi, the Napoleonic Code, the English common law, the Dutch-Roman model. From communist nations to capitalist, from the First World to the Third, it has been universally understood that every human being has the right to use lethal force against any individual who unlawfully threatens their life or limb with killing or crippling intent.



Here is a link to some of his other writings:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html

XavierBreath
December 22, 2008, 08:48 PM
I regret having to close this thread, but the original poster did not ask for religious views. He asked:1. Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky.
2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.
4.After the shooting what should be told to police. I seem to reamber that either Client Smith or Massad Ayoob did a video or wrote a article about what steps should be taken after the shooting has take place so if you can point me in the direction of this article I would be grateful.
Perhaps he can start the thread again without the religious overtones and it will not take that direction towards inevitable closure.

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