Self Defense questions


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HANDLOADER
December 21, 2008, 07:34 PM
Self Defense questions


Tonight has beeen a night full of discussion. And it all surronded self defense. It went well up until the bible thumper of the group brought up the livinng with killing a human being. Then it went to "if you use a gun in self defense you are the CRIMINAL" not your said attacker. So then we made a discussion out of Kentuckys castle doctrine. I am not very well informed on the doctrine and am looking for the whole doctrine instead of tid bits here and there so if you can help me in my quest for the whole doctrine I would be most grateful. Then the conversation turned to the act of shooting your attacker. The bible thumper said that you would be taken off to jail and charged with murder. I said would it not be man slaughter due to the fact that you did not plan or even think about killing the attacker. I have never been involved in a shooting and hope I will never be but if I am one day involved in a situation that requires me to use deadly force in order to protect myself or my family from a attacker or attacker's what should I expect to happen to me. The part about being taken to jail and charged with murder or manslaughter after defending yourself does not sound right but who am I to say if it is or not as I said I have never been involved in a shooting before nor do I know any one who has been involved in a self defense shooting. So I guss my questions are as following:


1. Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky.
2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.
4.After the shooting what should be told to police. I seem to reamber that either Client Smith or Massad Ayoob did a video or wrote a article about what steps should be taken after the shooting has take place so if you can point me in the direction of this article I would be grateful.

So please if you can help in my search for knowledge please help. Thank you agian

GOD BLESS US ALL
Merry Christmas to you and your family
Happy Holidays to the politicaly correct

THanks again

Handloader

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Tirod
December 21, 2008, 08:28 PM
I'll get the easy part out of the way. You can go to the Kentucky gun law web site and read the law directly. If there is a Kentucky CCW web sight sponsored by a group, they will have answers to questions.

I've PM'd my views on the thumper. I believe you are well in your rights and iethics to protect yourself with lethal force. I'd get a copy of Mas Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme to help sort out the potential legal liability. It is quite possible, not necessarily probable, that you could be charged if the wrong circumstances occurred - and their are a lot of different things that affect it. Like the Bible, lethal force is open to study, thought, and interpretation. Should the worst happen, hopefully the investigating officer agrees with you, along with the local District Attorney.

You are quite right to delve into the subject - the facts really contrast the vast amount of misinformation in common society.

everallm
December 22, 2008, 08:53 AM
Kentucky Castle Doctrine cam be read in full at

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503%2D00/080.pdf

Precis

KRS 503.080 Protection of Property (Castle Doctrine)

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:

(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, ...

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:

(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or

(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.

(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

Effective: July 12 2006
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/080.pdf

In general if such a shooting occurs, expect to be first held, possibly arrested whilst the facts are ascertained.

Do not say things like "I shot to kill the SOB" etc etc. Whilst you are allowed to use deadly force it is not a right to abuse.

"I shot to protect myself and my family as I was in immediate fear for our lives" is better.

BEST is lawyer up and nothing else.

Based on the law as written, so long as the police/DA ascertain you followed the requirements of Castle Doctrine it will be viewed as a good shoot and that's the end of the criminal side.

Can't see if there is the same protection from a civil suit, suggest you contact a local lawyer.

qajaq59
December 22, 2008, 09:58 AM
Then it went to "if you use a gun in self defense you are the CRIMINAL" not your said attacker.

Could be.... But at least I'll be the LIVE criminal, and my attorney can work out the rest of it.

jwr747
December 22, 2008, 01:15 PM
don't like politics or religion discussions but if you dig way back in the Hebrew Bible there was no commandment against killing,there was/is one against "murder". there is a difference. jwr

Tirod
December 22, 2008, 02:06 PM
The law, Biblical and statuatory, does allow killing - but not murder. It's not cut and dried easy, but then again, few confrontations are. Anyone who plans on using firearms for self defense has effectively signed themselves up for lifelong study, like it or not.

Just One Shot
December 22, 2008, 06:33 PM
I put this reply in the other post with the same name:

Here are some answers to often asked questions of anti-gunners
By Massad Ayoob


"How can one morally keep a lethal weapon when the Fifth Commandment states, “Thou shalt not kill?”


That’s not what it actually says. Biblical scholars seem unanimously agreed that in the original Hebrew, the commandment said, “Lo Tirtzah, Thou shalt not commit murder,” i.e., thou shalt not kill with evil intent.

This is not an exclusively Judeo-Christian ethos. The Bible, the Talmud, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon all make it clear that there are times when it is both justifiable and necessary for the good to use lethal force against the evil.

Provisions for justifiable homicide have existed in every body of law in the history of civilized Man: the Code of Hammurabi, the Napoleonic Code, the English common law, the Dutch-Roman model. From communist nations to capitalist, from the First World to the Third, it has been universally understood that every human being has the right to use lethal force against any individual who unlawfully threatens their life or limb with killing or crippling intent.



Here is a link to some of his other writings:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html

Kleanbore
December 22, 2008, 07:23 PM
Just One Shot, I really like it when I learn something. Thanks.

GregGry
December 23, 2008, 01:28 AM
This is going to be closed just like the other thread.


1. Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky.
2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.
4.After the shooting what should be told to police. I seem to reamber that either Client Smith or Massad Ayoob did a video or wrote a article about what steps should be taken after the shooting has take place so if you can point me in the direction of this article I would be grateful.



My honest advice is that you should get some legal training. If your unable to do that, then I would read books on self defense and the legal system.

If you shoot someone in self defense, the best thing is to not say any statements other then you want a lawyer. Statments you make when your excited might not reflect the situation accurately, and can be detrimental to your case.

A general rule about using deadly force and being justified, if someones actions are putting you at a substantial risk of death or great bodily harm, then you can use deadly force to protect yourself.

MostlyHarmless
December 23, 2008, 07:40 AM
2. What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.


You call 911, you call your attorney, the police show up and probably disarm and arrest you and you probably go to jail. Your attorney shows up, helps you get out of jail, and helps you stay out of prison.

3. How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.

Did the other guy have the ability, intent, and opportunity to inflict death or great bodily harm on you or some other innocent person? Were your actions reasonable?

4.After the shooting what should be told to police. I seem to reamber that either Client Smith or Massad Ayoob did a video or wrote a article about what steps should be taken after the shooting has take place so if you can point me in the direction of this article I would be grateful.


1. Call 911
2. Call your attorney. You have hopefully selected two or three self-defense attorneys in advance so you don't have to resort to the yellow pages, since most defense attorneys are unfamiliar with self-defense cases
3. Reholster
4. Wait for the cops and your attorney
5. Don't tell the cops anything except "I need to speak to my attorney and do not consent to any search"
6. Some authorities advocate pointing out any evidence to the cops that they may have missed, stating that you were attacked and that you defended yourself, and offering to sign a complaint as part of a strategy for avoiding arrest in jurisdictions that don't automatically "arrest the gun" as a matter of policy.

JImbothefiveth
December 23, 2008, 10:04 AM
Where can I find my states Castle Doctrine the state is Kentucky.
Consult a lawyer, or see if you can download a copy of all the state's gun laws from the state government's website

What are the steps that happen to you after a shooting and police show up.
The NRA apparently reccomends that you not make any statement without your lawyer present, because you will probably not be very clear thinking at that moment, as you were in a life-threatening situation.(If you weren't or someone else wasn't, you shouldn't have shot.)

How do the courts determine if a shooting was justifable or not.
I think it's generally "would a reasonable man be afraid for his life, in this same circumstance"?



The Bible will not save you from an attacker's bullet. Neutralizing him before he can fire that bullet will.
It is absolutely every man's prerogative to not defend himself based on the Bible, but I try to take the Bible practically and not literally, and would carry regardless. I'm sure there are plenty of very religions people who have fallen victim to an attacker. I'd prefer to take matters into my own hands.

The bible does not prohibit self defense.

Although, if your attacker gets his bullet off first, wouldn't you be glad you'd read that bible?

Just One Shot
December 23, 2008, 10:35 AM
Kleanbore,

You're welcome.

Art Eatman
December 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
The OP's questions were caused by comments from a religious person's views. Comments about what any religion said about self defense are off topic; the questions have to do with Kentucky law.

Just One Shot
December 23, 2008, 02:42 PM
Art Eatman,

I respectfully disagree.

Since the comments were made from a religious point of view it is totaly acceptable to respond in like fashion.

The OP pointed out the person was a bible thumper so I referenced some material he could use to try and get through to a person that is obviously an anti.

ffhuggie
December 23, 2008, 03:42 PM
Handloader I can give you personal first hand advice cause I am going thru it right now. First, learn if your state has a Castle Doctrine. My state did not. Next do not tell the police anything, they are gathering facts and evidence and are not your friends. Expect to spend a few days in jail. I spent 3. Hire an experienced attorney. Legal expenses will exceed 60,000 minimum. Expect your whole life to change and do not be too proud to rely on friends and family for support. Every aspect of your life will be affected and youll need friends and family. And finally pray. Merry Christmas

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