[bogie]

Okay - you guys who've got rifles that'll just nail 'em in there, shootin' 0.25" groups All Day Long... look at www.benchrest.com, and find the Postal Match area. $10 entry, and you can specify (honor system) whether you're shooting a "competition legal" or a factory rifle. 5-bull score targets, at 100 yards (honor system, but if you shoot a nice one, you may wanna get it witnessed), any scope, take all day shooting if you want, etc.

[cheygriz]

Bogie,

As expected, you aren't geting many takers. Most of the .25 inch groups, and for that matter most of the .75 inch groups are flukes that happen once in ten thousand!

I have a target containing a 5 shot group fired at 200YARDS from a stock Runer 77V heavy barrel 6MM that measures just a hair less than .25 inches. At 200 yards, remember!

Now, this is an accurate rifle and will NORMALLY shoot 5 shot groups of one inch at 200 yards. That's still one half MOA.

When pholks brag about their accurate rifles, I always like to ask them: :what's the AVERAGE of TEN FIVE SHOT GROUPS?" Most of them change the subject, or suddenly remember an important meeting they're already late for.

[Ledbetter]

there are also postal matches at

www.rimfirecentral.com

[cratz2]

I still say that on a very calm windless day, when I am very calm and caffeineless and everything is in perfect harmony and there's just a general feeling of Zen in the air, I'm lucky to keep 3 shots in one inch at 100 yards. This is almost best case scenario. I've shot several 2-2.5" 3 shot groups at 200 yards but we're still talking 3 shots. Truth be told, I'm, a big fan of 10 shot groups. If you can keep 10 shots in 1.5" at 100 yards, you're doing pretty darned good.

I don't know how accurate most of my [i]rifles[/]i are because I'm not that great with known excellent rifle/load combos. :(

[cheygriz]

Cratz2,

Your groups are typical for most hunting and military rifles. Target and varmint rifles are usually much more accurate, but nowhere near .25 MOA consistently. For .25 inch groups, you really need a custom bench rest rig.

And yes, I know, there are a few exceptions. Damn few!

[Gewehr98]

You need to be over at www.xtremeaccuracy.com with all the other benchresters.

What's a Runer 77? ;)

The really accurate field rifles are a rare thing. Hell, even the rifle I built for 1000 yard tactical competitions, Krieger barrel and wildcat chambering, would have trouble putting 10 rounds into less than 1/4 inch at 100 yards, and it centerpunched a golf ball at 500 meters during a sniper match. It probably could, but the goofball behind the Canjar trigger would throw a flyer in there with his antics. (me)

[charlie d]

Here's a 0.12 MOA five shot group from my Rem .223 VS, Jewell trigger, Bushnell 24x scope. We (I and the gun) averaged 0.40 MOA over 25 groups.
http://frutsel.terrainhost.com/frutselapp/dump/charlied/223%20target%201.jpg

[dakotasin]

i have a couple of rifles that are pretty accurate. oh, they're not benchrest accurate, but they are capable of an honest .6" at 200. not too bad.

however, today's high temperature is s'posed to make it to 10 degrees (above zero), and the wind is s'posed to slow down to 15 mph (snow's s'posed to stop, too)... as you might guess, the conditions are such that anybody who thinks i'm dragging all my gear out to a bench and might have a burning desire to sit there and shoot groups is mistaken...

anyway, for those who live in southern (read: warmer) climes, best of luck to you.

[Art Eatman]

S'posed to be 76 in Phoenix and 81 in LA, today. Maybeso some of those folks can call in well to the office and go shoot. :D

I guess I've always had a lot of respect for the benchrest crowd because of all the variables they have to fight. The rig, the ammo, the ambient weather conditions, their own physical attributes...All this adds up to a heckuva challenge.

I've always thought, "Huntin'!", so my needs aren't nearly so great. For a hunter, the most important thing is that the first shot from a cold barrel always goes to the same place--and usually, anything around one MOA is plenty good.

It's sure a lot of fun to see how good you can make your hunting rig perform, though. :)

Art

[MarineTech]

Here's a 0.12 MOA five shot group from my Rem .223 VS, Jewell trigger, Bushnell 24x scope. We (I and the gun) averaged 0.40 MOA over 25 groups.

Ummmm... Charlie, it could be me, but I don't actually see any holes in that target.

[charlie d]

:confused:

It's a copy that I made at work on a Canon that printed blue. I then glued it to the stock of my rifle and covered it with mylar tape.

[BigG]

Charlie, it could be me, but I don't actually see any holes in that target.

?? :confused: ??

[bogie]

Hint: When you frame, or otherwise mount a target, put something black behind the important part...

FWIW, the "0.25 inch all day long" routine is something that benchresters tend to joke about. Keep in mind that Tony Boyer won the Supershoot last time with a four-day aggregate of around 0.255 inches, and things come a bit more into perspective.

Our rifles will actually shoot better than this - the hard part is keeping an eye on wind, setting up to shoot, attention to handloading procedures, etc... You screw up one little thing, and your quarter-inch group just became a half-inch group, or (sob!) even worse.

I've managed one day (5 targets) where I got things working to the point where I shot 0.2014 for the day (and came in third). My best group to date in registered competition is 0.113 inches at 100 yards. At 200, the best I've managed thus far is 0.300 inches. At 100 yards for 10 shots (considerably more opportunity to screw up), my best is 0.323 inches.

[cheygriz]

Bogie,

The guys that post about their "same hole, 100 shot groups" on the forums don't bother me. I know they're pulling my leg, and most of the other shooters here know also. The posters here are generaly a bit better informed than the average "Joe Six Pack."

What really bugs me are the gun rag writers that write the stories about their "Stock, as issued, DCM M-1 Garand that just shot a 1 inch ten shot group at 600 yards with the issue sights."

Then there's the article, right beside a full page Ruger advertisement, that tells how the writer just shot a one inch 10 shot group with his out of the box Mini-14 and Wolf ammo.

Unfortunately, there are pholks out there that mistakenly believe these people are expets, and believe what they read.

Gewehr:

A Runer 77 is what a Ruger 77 becomes when you get arthritis in your fingers and can no longer type worth a damn.

[bogie]

My bud Clay, who a few folks here have met, fired a 10-shot 600 yard group with a largely box-stock (timney and a skim-coat bed job) with his 700PSS .300 Win Mag that you could cover with the palm of your hand. That's a heck of a group.

And I've fired one-hole groups that were over an inch when measured - they looked like caterpillars (also known as "weather reports" because when you look at it, you know the shooter didn't pay attention to the wind.).

[Elkslayer]

Be careful there Cheygriz, I got beat up pretty good when I doubted someones claim to itty bitty groups over on Gun-Talk.com but just for the record, I'm with you on this one.

Here is the statment, my response and the reprimand.

Claim –

I have no experience with this rifle (AR15), but I think you might be surprised at the range it will be accurate out to. The barrel is pretty rigid. One guy I talked to that had one said it was under 1" at about 200 yards. I don't remember if that was offhand or benchrest or whatever, and I didn't ask what ammo he was using.

My response -

My understanding of offhand is - Standing, no sling and no support.

Under an 1" at 200 yards... offhand?

Who are you trying to kid? I haven't ever seen or heard anyone doing this at the Nationals at Camp Perry.

But then, I can sometimes get a 1" group at 200 yards offhand if I shoot a 1-shot group!! (grin)

Reprimand -

FWIW: I have seen a couple CMP shooters maintain 1" groups at 200yds offhand (all in the x-ring), but these are the guys that compete nationally and internationally... These are guys that consistently shoot scores of 490 or better, but they are also using several thousand dollar custom built rifles.

______________________

I still say shooting 1" groups OFFHAND at 200 yards is damn near unheard of. And by-the-way, how many shots were in this group? For your information, typically there are 20 rounds fired for record at the 200 yard offhand stage of this competition.

Elkslayer

[cheygriz]

Elkslayer,

The man who first tried to teach me the finer points of rifle shooting was a "distinguised master class" bullseye shooter.

He often told me that among **MASTERS**, one of the most sought after goals was the ability to shoot a ***6 inch,*** 10 shot group offhand at 200 yards.

I agree with you. Question the "crack shots" or gun magazine "experts" and you will, in all likelihood, get flamed.

But, OTOH, do you really care? (LOL)

[Smoke]

I guy I hunt Dove's with used to compete in benchrest. He has a target hanging on the wall that was shot at 1000 yards. I can cover the 5 holes with my hat. (7 3/8's)

He claims it was the best he ever did and still finished 3rd.

I know its a damn site better than I could ever hope to.

1000 yards? You mean there IS a target out there?

[swingset]

Well, just to make everyone feel a bit better about themselves, I can't hit a school bus from 200 yards.

I admit it. There, ya happy now!

:cuss:

[cratz2]

I can't hit a school bus from 200 yards.

Well, hell! There's your problem. You shouldn't be shooting at school buses like that. :p

To be honest, the furthest I've ever had the chance to shoot is 300 yards and that target was pretty darn small even at 18x. I can shoot at a measured 200 yards quite often but not as often as I would like. Hope to be changing that in the next couple months.

At 200 yards, with my Remington 700 Police with tuned trigger and a Leupold VariX II 6-18 target scope off a Harris bipod resting on the hood of a car shooting Black Hills 75 Gr HPBT reloads, this is about what I usually get. Probably not the best ever but close. I'd call the groups 'representative to optimistic'. I'd like to get them closer and more consistant, not wandering off to the right. And eventually all touching. Have a guy that shoots a big dollar custom benchrest rifle in 25-06 that has the shots always touching at 200 yards. 300 yard groups can be covered with a dime. But he has a 500 yard range on his property and is on disability so can shoot all he wants. The loads are built up for the rifle and the chamber is exactly just so. Not saying it would help me much but some guys that get .3 MOA groups out to 300 yards with factory rifles and factory ammo are really talented and darn lucky.

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//DCP_1381a.jpg

[Gewehr98]

hitting those quarters. :D (Something I do for free beer)


http://mauser98.com/quarter1.JPG

[dakotasin]

gewehr-
my brother in law is really into shooting at quarters and dimes. last time i went out there for a visit, he wanted to do an informal shooting competition at 125 yards. he was shooting his 308, i was shooting my 25-06... anyway, we each got 2 shots, and then moved on to clay pigeons at 200 yards, etc etc... i fired my 2, and hit my quarter twice...something i'd never tried doing before. he fired twice and only made 1 hit :neener: ... anyway, i was impressed w/ myself, but haven't tried it since. my hitting the quarter twice in as many shots is what sold him on handloading... we haven't tried doing that since, thankfully, because his 308 is a real tackdriver w/ handloads, and i'd have a hard time keeping up w/ him, i think...

[redneck2]

I don't understand. I mean, I can find threads where they are quite emphatic about shooting 1 hole 'ers

You mean all those guys with factory Savage 110's and Rem 700's that shoot endless, continuous 1/4" groups are just BS'ing???:eek:

Heck, I can beat them.........I do it EVERY NIGHT

at 1:00.......in my dreams

must be the same time they do it

[larryw]

This is the result of a long morning at the range shooting my stock 700VS in 223. Total of 100 rounds (group on far right is different load), no cleaning (you can see where it goes away). Maybe not 1/4" (there are a few in there), but then I measure 5 round groups.

Biggest problem hitting that magical 1/4" mark with this gun is the operator. It can be done.

http://www.dimark.com/shooting/223x18.jpg

To answer the next question: ~26.2gr N133 (thrown loads by my Dillon measure, I don't weigh them), 40gr V-Max, Win brass, WSP. Loaded to .003 off lands.

I'm really looking forward to the Postal Match. :D

[bogie]

Next time you take that thing to the range, put out some wind indicators. I see a coupla weather reports in there. You'll be surprised!

[larryw]

Bogie, it was a very calm day (typically brutal January in No. CA morning), but you're right, a bee fart will bend the flight of those little 40gr bullets hauling along at 3800fps.

I think more than anything, you see "shooting while BS-ing with my buddies" indicators. You see the blowing milk out the nose shot? :banghead: