[chriske]

Every once in a while, I take one of my "semi-safe queens" along to the range.
(These are guns I only shoot a few times a year or so).
Last wednesday it was my Walther PPK 's turn.
The little German managed to -again !- surpise me in an unpleasant way & make me trust ( and like) it even less when it fired TWO shots with only one trigger pull.
Very unnerving, that.

Needless to say it got unloaded & packed at once.

So I turned back to my S&W mod 14 to test a new .38 Sp. load I made up : 158gr LRN cast bullet with 4.0 Gr of Belgian PCL 531 powder behind it.
The manufacturer recommends 4.3 Gr, so I guessed 4.0 was a safe start.
My first group (at 15 meters, from a rest) had 5 shots in ONE hole and the 6th about 1/2 inch left of this tiny cluster. Pleased with my reloading efforts, I proceeded to shoot the rest of the batch (about 20 cartridges) standing, 2handed, fast DA at the same distance.
Great fun: blam ,blam, blam, KERBOOM!!
Yeah, right : I had to really PUNCH that empty shell out of the cylinder chamber with a screwdriver. Completely flattened primer, the cartridge head even had a raised circle of brass on it, corresponding with the circumference of the hammer nose bushing in the recoil shield.

Fed up &, admittedly, a bit pale, I packed it all in & went home.

Upon examination, the only damage I detected is a distinct outward bulge in the inner wall of that particular chamber, just opposite the bolt notch cut (of course). Everything else seems A-OK. (Seems)

Can't for the life of me understand this. I've been loading for over 20 years now, without so much as one ammo-related misfire or anything, now this.

I still don't think I double-charged one shell, as that would have meant 8.00 Gr of powder, whereas 6.8 Gr is listed as MAX-load in 357 Mag !

Surely my .38Spl Mod. 14 would've been blown to smithereens with such a load, wouldn't it ? So what happened ?? Simple truth is I don't know : must 've done SOMEthing wrong !

Apart from having had a frutrating, scary, complete bummer of a day, I mourn my poor old trusted used-to-be-one-of-my-very-best Mod.14 .
Would you dare shoot a gun in that condition?

[Wedge]

I would pull every load from that batch. Could have been the only one, could have been the rest of the lot.

I would not shoot that firearm again until the cylinder and frame was verified safe by a qualified individual.

[Kind of Blued]

"Horror" is a powerful word. You had me thinkin' somebody died.

+1 to what Wedge said.

[armoredman]

Ouch, please have that beauty safety inspected, and a new cyclinder installed. And ditto on ditching all of that loading.

[The Lone Haranguer]

Upon examination, the only damage I detected is a distinct outward bulge in the inner wall of that particular chamber, just opposite the bolt notch cut (of course).
Every round fired out of that chamber from now on is going to stick because the brass will expand into the bulge. It may also be a starting point for a complete rupture.

[parisite]

yeah, just get another cylinder for that sweet 14 and she should be fine.

I'll bet it was a double charge.

[michaelmcgo]

Sounds like a double charge. I use powders in my .44 that fill the case so that I don't have that happen. Human error is a bummer.

[chriske]

You are all right, of course, and I'm still mentally kicking myself.
I did unload the rest of that batch of reloads & weighed the charges ( all correct by the way).
Guess I got away cheaply this time.
But my confidence (in my reloads, in reloading and even to some extent in shooting in general) is severely shaken.

My significant other - bless her- told me to get back to the range ASAP, & shoot a hundred
of my own .38 spl reloads through my biggest .357Mag (that would be my S&W 28), sort of like getting back in the saddle after having fallen off a horse, I guess.

[FoMoGo]

This is one of the reasons I reload with unique...
I generally shoot heavier loads... and I CANT double charge them without it being obvious.


Jim

[Floppy_D]

This is one of the reasons I reload with unique...

+1, same here.

[crebralfix]

PPK: TAKE THAT GUN APART RIGHT NOW!!! Separate the slide and frame physically so the ATF cannot say you are in possession of a functioning fully automatic pistol.

A man is in prison because of a malfunctioning rifle.

[Ky Larry]

I know this has been stated may times until I'm sure you're sick of hearing it ,but I'm going to say it again:

Check your powder charges 3 times.
1. When you drop your charge from the powder throw.
2, When they are all charged and sitting in the charge tray.
3. Before you seat the bullet.

Even with very low volume powders such as AA#2, a double charge will be obvious. Pleas have a safe and happy New Year.

[nicholst55]

PPK: TAKE THAT GUN APART RIGHT NOW!!! Separate the slide and frame physically so the ATF cannot say you are in possession of a functioning fully automatic pistol.

A man is in prison because of a malfunctioning rifle.

Dude! He's in Belgium! No worries about the federal gun police....

[IndianaBoy]

PPK: TAKE THAT GUN APART RIGHT NOW!!! Separate the slide and frame physically so the ATF cannot say you are in possession of a functioning fully automatic pistol.

A man is in prison because of a malfunctioning rifle.

Even if this incredibly knee jerk reaction were correct, the advice is not.

Taking apart a 'machine gun' does not make it 'not a machine gun'.

[gun4funtime]

I am not familiar with the powder used for these loads. But just a thought?

Years back I heard, and seen the results of a "flash" explosion, due to a reduced load. Would this have been possible with this powder and load?

reducing from 4.3 to 4.0, could this have been enough to let the primer light the side of the powder causing high pressures?? Unlikely, but a thought.

20 years of reloading, should have a loading routine, maybe not a double charge??

Let the rest of us take a little warning, not to get to confident, and take safety for granted!

[eatont9999]

These things happen. The best thing to do is just be more careful. Don't be afraid of going back to the range.

[AK103K]

You did let go of the trigger on the P7 before you "recocked" it, right? :)

Or did it go bang twice without you relaxing your grip?

If your finger is on the trigger when you "cock" the gun, it will discharge.

[jjohnson]

The only time I've ever had an auto "double" on me was traced back to the second round not having the primer seated:eek: to its full depth.



We call this:scrutiny: a 'slamfire.' If indeed you had a slamfire possibly attributed to not seating the primer, followed by something that was double charged:what:, I'd want to ditch every reload that particular operator ever put together.


After that, I'd check what prescription medications and/or other substances I'd recently consumed. The life you save may be your own.

[harmonic]

A man is in prison because of a malfunctioning rifle.


That's not true. Here's a discussion of it:

Seem's he advertised the weapon for sale, and the fire selector had a third position. Guy that had the rifle at the range cooperated with prosecution. Potential buyer that took the gun to the range was told what the third position was for. It fired a three round burst and jammed.


There was also a discussion on AR15.com and it turned out the seller had installed some M16 parts.

Anyway, he got into trouble, not because the gun accidentally fired a 2 or 3 shot burst. He got in trouble because it had some parts from a full auto gun and then fired a 2 or 3 shot burst.

[SCMtns]

Gun4funtime might have hit it on the head-- it might not have been a double charge at all but a pressure excursion /flash explosion/ whatever else they're called. It can happen when you're loading light loads with smokeless powder that leave a lot of empty room in the case, especially when it's a case that was originally intended for black powder (which takes up a lot more volume than smokeless does for an equivalent charge). I was only recently educated about the phenomenon myself. I load .45 Colt and will probably never risk it with really light loads since learning about it.

Apparently what happens is that the primer explodes, flashes over the tiny amount of gun powder (and 4.0 grains is a pretty small pile of powder), pushes the bullet out of the case and into the bore, and only then does the powder charge explode. Except it's exploding against a stuck bullet. Kaboom...

I know every load varies, and it's possible to go over pressure with just a small amount of powder in excess of the recommended charge, but I just can't see you getting a kaboom out of 8.0 grains of any kind of powder, even in a .38. Of course, I don't know what kind of powder you're using...

[hksw]

I am not familiar with the powder used for these loads. But just a thought?

Years back I heard, and seen the results of a "flash" explosion, due to a reduced load. Would this have been possible with this powder and load?

reducing from 4.3 to 4.0, could this have been enough to let the primer light the side of the powder causing high pressures?? Unlikely, but a thought.


My thought too. I was also thinking detonation.

[SaxonPig]

I'm sure that it was in fact a double charge. I have a 1917 Colt originally in 455 that has been recut for the 45 Colt. A friend gave me a box of reloads left over after he sold his gun and he had double charged several with 16 grains of Unique. The one I fired bulged the chamber as you describe. A replacement cylinder fixed the gun but this is why I never again shoot someone else's reloads.

I would have thought that 16 grains of Unique would blow a 1917 all to hell but it really did minimal damage.

[tango2echo]

There's a reason why your reloading manual states a "minimum" (beginning) and a "maximum" charge. My money is on a flash charge. I had this happen with Win 296 powder in a batch of .357mag loaded to light .38sp velocities. The first 3 rounds were fine, the 4th blew the side out of a Ruger GP100 cylinder. Nothing injured but a perfectly good revolver and my pride.

T2E

[DrLaw]

I've heard that phenomenom of too little powder being called a pressure wave explosion. The powder ignites, the pressure of the explosion oscillates in the case. (Best explanation I can think of for it).

It's one thing that I have always worried about when loading low for practice, after I learned about how to reload properly. Prior to then, I had been using pretty low amounts of Unique. (figured that if I was using an amount of powder that was lower than the recommended low, but didn't keyhole the bullet - yes, I had that when first reloading with one of those manual Lee Loaders - then I had it right) That was about 30 years ago.

I don't load that low now.

As for the double fire, I'd agree that it was a slam-fire on a high primer as opposed to the pistol, but wouldn't hurt to check the firing pin to see if it broke in two, either.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Sorry to hear that - what did the recoil feel like on the kerbloom? It *does* sound like a 2x charge, but if the recoil wasn't any higher, maybe it was that side-flash thing. Are you SURE that there is metal deformation?.... on the PPK, I've never had one, so can't really evaluate fairly, but the ratio of bad-stories-on-the-net to lotsa-love-for-them-anyway is really high and a little strange.

[SlamFire1]

Upon examination, the only damage I detected is a distinct outward bulge in the inner wall of that particular chamber, just opposite the bolt notch cut (of course). Everything else seems A-OK. (Seems)

The cylinder has exceeded its yield strength and now is permanently deformed . It is now not as strong as it was before. You need to replace the cylinder. Sorry.

Can't for the life of me understand this. I've been loading for over 20 years now, without so much as one ammo-related misfire or anything, now this.

Another way to look at it, no one is perfect. Bad things happen and will happen again. Pick up the pieces and move on.

I still don't think I double-charged one shell, as that would have meant 8.00 Gr of powder, whereas 6.8 Gr is listed as MAX-load in 357 Mag !

Maybe not a double charge, but still an over max charge. Sometimes powder sticks in the funnel. Sometimes people toss double charges. 99.9999% of the time, a situation like this is due to something the reloader did.

[Jim K]

The NRA, SAAMI, and every ammo and powder maker in the country, plus a lot outside the country, have tried to get that "flashover" to happen in the lab. They have not succeeded.

IMHO, it is simply a "not my fault" explanation for double charging.

The results described are those of a classic double charge; it is fortunate that no one was hurt and that the cylinder didn't blow and take the topstrap with it.

Jim

[dagger dog]

chriske,

I load .38 special using Bullseye powder and the possibility of double charging is always there, I'm just lucky it hasn't happened to me yet.
It's the pits you had to ruin that revolver, and have the PPK go sour on you on the same day.

Just a little tip; check each case after the powder drop with a small flash light, you should be able to spot that double charge, after you check the drop then stick a bullet in the case with finger pressure, that acts as a cap and a reminder that that case has been charged and checked, then and only then do you move to the seating die.

All the above only pertains to single stage loading. If you're loading progressive you will have to check after the powder drop, it will be a little harder with the case in a shell holder on the press and it will slow things down a bit , but must be done for saftey reasons. I know hindsight is 20/20.

I feel for ya Bud just glad you're safe!

[the foot]

As for the Walther, my PP (.32 Auto) went automatic once, I shot 5 rounds before I got off the trigger. The safety flew off the weapon. My gunsmith replaced the safety, and I have had no problems for the past 16 years with at least 3000 reload rounds through the little guy.

[chriske]

Many thanks for all the input, and Happy New Year to all on THR.

Concerning the powder (PCL 531) : I have been using it wihout any problem for a while now, as being interchangeable with W-231.
Depending on exact bullet shape & material I have loaded lots of :
.45 Colt / 250 Gr : 7.2 - 7.5
.44 Spl / 240 gr : 5.0 - 5.3
.38 Spl / 148 gr WC : 3.0 - 3.3
and that fateful .38 Spl /158 Gr : 4.0 - 4.3

A too light charge ? A .38 solid based "button-nosed" wadcutter,when seated properly, takes up about as much space in the cartridge as a 158 gr LSWC & I load those with 3.3 gr ( a full grain less) of the same powder, without any "flash explosion" or "detonation" or whatever.
I too do suspect that this phenomenon is sometimes used as an excuse for a double charge or otherwise sloppy reloading. Some knowledgeable folks however, whose opinion I value, respect and trust (Mike Venturino, for one) claim to have witnessed it.

Report & recoil with my overload were very noticeably heavier than from a regular.38 Spl/158 Gr load but nowhere near even a mild .357M out of a heavier revolver (S&W 586).

Any and all explanation for my scary experience is post-factum speculation, anyway.
No, it was my own "human error" pure and simple. I have nothing or no-one to blame but myself.
Lesson learned : I'll be even more careful when loading & pay even more atention to every detail.

Getting a new cylinder would (here in Belgium) involve turning the defective cylinder officially in for destruction -at my cost-, obtaining a new "permit to purchase a firearm" (costs 85.00 Euros), ordering a cylinder & having it fitted (about 300.00 Euros) & having the entire gun re-proofed - again at my cost-. I think I'll pass & look for another used but fine Mod 14 . They can sometimes be found for 200.00-250.00 Euros.

Someone (AK103K) mistook my PPK for a grip-squeeze-cocking Heckler & Koch P-7 I think .
If my PPK "slam-fired" because of a primer not being correctly seated, I had nothing to do with it: I used factory ammo in that one. Because it is so rarely used, maybe some oil/dust mixture coagulated & prevented some lever or other (lots of those in a PPK) to function properly. I' ll clean it really well & try again.

[AK103K]

Yup, that was me. Somehow my brain saw P7 and not PPK. Must of been all that cough syrup I was drinking with Bill Murray! :D