guie gun and 45-70 ammo


December 22, 2008, 11:07 PM
i like the guide gun, feels goo in my hands and very solid. looks cool too:)
wondering how much it kicks, having an 18in barrel and all.
also, why does it seem like 45-70 ammo is underloaded? anyone make affordable ammo to see what this baby can do or do you need to handload?

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December 22, 2008, 11:13 PM
45-70 doesn't need to be "hot" loaded to get the job done. Mild loads are more than enough. Go ahead and shoot the most powerful 45-70 loads if you like (can your shoulder take it?) but slow 400gr hard cast bullets can get the job done a couple hundred fps won't matter much.

December 22, 2008, 11:19 PM
also, why does it seem like 45-70 ammo is underloaded?

Because ammo makers don't know what kind of rifle people might use.

.45-70 is sort of broken down into 3 types. The names are just made up, there is no "official" specification:

Level 1: This is what you buy in stores, safe to shoot in just about any firearm out there that will chamber the .45-70. 28,000 cup is the SAAMI spec.

Level 2: These are hotter and need to be fired in something stronger, at least as strong as the Marlin 1895. 40,000 cup or so. Call this the "+P" version.

Level 3: These are hot. These are meant for super strong guns, very strong bolt actions or something like a Ruger #1.. These are high pressure loadings, surpassing the SAMMI specs and could be dangerous in an older or weaker gun. These are in the 50,000 cup range, almost double the SAAMI recommendations. That's why these are hard to come by in a commercial loading, they are a tort lawyers dream come true. With a 500 gr bullet these can approach the numbers you see in African big game cartridges.

That said, the factory loadings are perfectly fine for pretty much anything game animal in North America. The recoil is not bad at all. Unless I was going after dangerous game the Level 1 stuff would plenty.

Jefferson Herb
December 23, 2008, 12:04 AM
I've loaded 45-70 since browning came out with the limited 1886 in the 80's.If you want a smokeless load 28 gr 4759 is good w / 400 gr cast.[50gr 3031 w/same bullet if you want to feel pain].
Now that I have an 1890 trapdoor,65gr 3f .060 patch,and lead bullet is fine.Advantage:Remove 1/2in spine from deer,cut 1oz meat around hole,now you have removed the damage.

Big Bill
December 23, 2008, 12:32 AM
Why wouldn't one buy a Marlin .450 instead of the 45-70?

Harve Curry
December 23, 2008, 01:09 AM
There's alot of components and brass available everywhere for the 45-70, and cheaper then the 450 Marlin.

December 23, 2008, 03:30 AM
The guide guns mostly have thick recoil pads, UNLIKE the 1895 Cowboy limited and Century limited models.

Recoil with Remington factory 405 gr ammo isn't as stout as a 12 ga firing 1oz. max slugs. It's a thumper, and the guide gun's relative light weight can shove you around.

Get a firm grip on that fat forearm, seat the stock properly in the pocket of your shoulder and lean into it a little, like you would a shotgun.

It's not unmanagable, but not a beginner's gun either. I have NOT handloaded for this round yet (scoff at me, go ahead) though I have a bunch of brass and dies.

I have seen deer elk and antelope taken with a guide gun. Honestly, unless you plan on taking it to Africa or Alaska, that 405 Remington fodder is PLENTY of punch for anything up to Moose.

December 23, 2008, 10:15 AM
i have a guide gun 45/70.

i shoot both the soft loaded and hot loaded ammo through it. the factory remington ammo is MUCH easier on your shoulder.

i have loaded up some that was within max load specs, that was so hot i didn't want to shoot it even with a muzzle break and a limbsaver recoil pad. the really hot loads actually are so hot that if you hit an animal with it at close range, the bullet will explode, instead of penetrate like it should. i talked to remington and hornady about that. so unless you KNOW you will be shooting @ over 100 yards, there is no reason to load that hot, ever. plus it is HARD on the gun, as well as your shoulder.

if you buy the guide gun, even before you shoot it, get a limbsaver recoil pad (p/n 10102) and install it. it will be the best thing you ever did.

the low pressure rounds do not kick all that bad. but the big hot and heavy loads. DO.

i read an article in handloader magazine where the author loaded up some non expanding rounds and went to africa with his 45/70. he shot some cape buffalo with it. he said that on one shot, he shot and killed one bull and the bullet continued on its way (total penetration) and went on to kill the cow (total penetration again) on the other side! two drt's with one shot!

he also shot a different cape buffalo in the chest, and the bullet exited out the rear end of the animal. total penetration lengthwise.
these can be a mean and nasty load, if you want them to be.

i wouldnt buy the 450 marlin only because of the ammunition limitations. the same with the 444. there is so much ammo out there for the 45/70, it is almost as good of a selection as the 30-06.
you can buy slow and mild, or hot and nasty. depending on what you want to do.

the choice is your of course, but i WOULD reccomend a marlin 45/70 in any configuration to anybody except the really meek.

December 23, 2008, 10:22 AM
It isn't cheap, but Buffalo Bore loads some that are hotter than you'll find in most stores.

December 23, 2008, 10:48 AM
I shoot nothing but Black Hills ammo in my 1895G. It seems to work best for me. Most of the loads are downloaded in my opinion due to the number of old trap doors and the like out there. The ammo makers don't want to get sued when someone puts a smokeless round in a trap door and blows it all to New Jersey. Modern factory ammo does not begin to touch the abilities of a good black or even smokeless powder hand load. And as with any good load you'll have to hand load to get the best performance out your rifle. Mine is great fun and kicks no worse than a 12ga.

December 23, 2008, 11:01 AM
Why wouldn't one buy a Marlin .450 instead of the 45-70?

If you are going to reload exclusively it probably doesn't matter.

But if you are going to use any commercial loadings .45-70 clearly wins.

December 23, 2008, 11:13 AM
"how hard does it kick?"

Weak commercial loads - ~30 ft/lbs. That calculation surprised me, since I could've sworn the factory stuff kicks less than my 30-06.

Hot 45-70/450 marlin is calculating as 45 ft/lbs.

Garrett Hammerheads feel about like a 12ga goose shell or a brenneke slug. (which are 50-60 ft/lbs.)

December 24, 2008, 07:54 PM
i have Spartan/baikal mp-221 45/70 Double Rifle the rifle shoots at 100y 100mm group
with 28g of AP2207 405g lead 1150f has any one has a better load as this is the best i have shot only put 65 rounds out i may get better?
from australia QLD mareeba have shot with 46g AP2208 no good at all over load open up one chamber over size now

December 25, 2008, 12:36 AM
My guide gun gets unfun to shoot after about 15 or so 405 grain rounds. The 300 grain are much easier on the shoulder, not bad at all. For me both weights are very accurate out of the Marlin.

December 25, 2008, 02:59 AM
i have A 416 rem i shoot with 400g round with 86g AP2209 a bit on the recoil side fixed, it with a mercury recoil suppressor 11 oz you can shoot a match of 20 rounds and be ok cost $50.00 us i fitted it you need a drill press
spade bit 7/8 a plug at back two screws a good recoil pad no more kick 303 is more
may help rich636 thank for your reply
I shoot big game rifle at range with rifles in 375/416/45-70/6.5/32-20 all 8 -20 to 30 rounds
IS a ported rifle not nice to shoot next to ? at range

December 25, 2008, 05:33 AM
The Marlin 1895G .45/70 is my favorite centerfire gun!

I am you your typical short,stubby and chubby 40 something female
and this gun is a blast to shoot and is hell on Black bear[which is the only game I've harvested with it].

My Marlins are all of the factory "ported" versions so keep that in mind, I think that a 12 gauge 3" slug recoils much more.

December 25, 2008, 06:41 AM
I have the early Guide Gun with the porting. The rifle has a straight stock and the length of pull is a little short for me. Thus, I do not enjoy stiff loads in the rifle. I have found that it is very pleasant to shoot with 405 grain bullets over 42 grains of IMR 3031. Accurate also! I use a Lyman No. 66 peep sight and can report that the rifle/load combination is accurate enough at 200yards to make offhand shooting a measure of my ability. I have a shorter somewhat portly friend who finds the rifle stock a better fit, and he shoots the same weight bullet over 50 grains of IMR 3031 comfortably. I would certainly hunt with the load I am using; but alas, I have not hunted with this rifle and probably will not do so, preferring different chamberings when afield for deer and elk.

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