[natedog]

Here we see the classic 1911 (right side) http://world.guns.ru/handguns/1911_1.jpg

(left side)
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/1911a1.jpg

Now here's the modern 1911: http://www.valtrousa.com/photogallery/valtro.jpg

http://www.valtrousa.com/photogallery/valtronice.jpg



What modifications are really functional (not aesthetic) improvements over the original?

[Nightcrawler]

The sights, primarily, though GI sights will, of course, work.

The rest of the stuff is aesthetics/ergonomics, in my opinion. Some people need the beavertail and such to hold the pistol comfortably; I don't and prefer the spur hammer and standard grip safety.

I see no utility whatsoever in the front serrations, and in my opinion they ruin the lines of the gun.

I'm left handed, so an ambi safety is probably a good idea for me, but I don't want one of the "extended" safeties. I found that they press against my shooting finger when they're down, and it's bothersome.

[Lone_Gunman]

The lowered ejection port is a functional improvement. I think Nightcrawler may have missed that.

Front slide serrations make it easier to press check,so they are kind of a functional improvement. I agree they aren't all that pretty.

[10-Ring]

I learned what hammer bite was after my first mag from a Mil Spec 1911 :( IMO, the hammer & beavertail address that very well. Just to mention something on the aesthetic side of the fence...the FLGR ;)

[Nightcrawler]

Press checking....

You should know whether or not your weapon is loaded. I assume press-checking is checking the chamber quickly, when you're in the middle of things.

Well, that's not the time to be unsure if your weapon's unloaded or not.

If it's NOT in the heat of the moment, and you're not pressed for time, then why can't you just pull back the slide normally?

Again, I fail to see the utility.

As for the ejection port...I guess. Do non-flared ejection ports cause reliability problems? Why?

[railroader]

The newer model also has the frame cut up higher under the trigger guard which allows to grip higher up on the gun. Also the aluminum trigger makes it easier to get a lighter trigger pull out of the gun. Mark

[Jim Watson]

Lessee, now.
The slide stop pin is shortened so you don't bump it out. Then the hole is countersunk so you can push it out barehanded anyway.
The front sight is dovetailed in so a big front sight to match the adjustable rear doesn't pop out of the GI mortise.
The beavertail has a hump so when you grab the gun with the high hand hole beavertail and trigger guard relief there is something that you have a chance of contacting to depress the safety.
The mainspring housing is back to the 1911 flat shape because nobody point shoots any more and doesn't care about a natural point angle.
The burr hammer with a strange shape hole looks way cool.

[Nightcrawler]

The beavertail has a hump so when you grab the gun with the high hand hole beavertail and trigger guard relief there is something that you have a chance of contacting to depress the safety

You're assuming everybody holds the pistol like this. I find it terribly awkward.

[C.R.Sam]

Old eyes but...
Looks to me like the top two pics are of one each,
1911 and 1911 A1.

Lower is modern tail fins n bells to sell.

Far prefer either of the real 1911s as a weapon. A1 points better for me but have carried both as work guns and they served well.

Also....the lowered ejector port is to compensate for an inability of the maker to tune the ejector.

Sam

[Nightcrawler]

You're right Sam...the top two ARE different guns. The mainspring housings are different. The top one is a pre-A1, and I think the bottom one IS an A1...

[dsk]

The following are definite improvements:

Throated feed ramp for reliability.
Trigger job.
Better sights.

All else is mostly cosmetic.

[BigG]

Maybelline and L'Oreal ought to get into this business.

[Sean Smith]

Let's see...

Almost all modern sights are an improvement over the original 1911 sights, which do suck. Many excellent rear sights fit in the standard dovetail and don't require machining a new one, however.

Lighter triggers (as in the physical weight of the part) are better. For most purposes, adjustable triggers with the overtravel screw are not. The screw just gives you a new failure mode... the screw backs out and the gun won't shoot. Drilling holes in the trigger is just silly; a solid trigger lightened internally is just as light.

Lowered ejection port is a functional improvement, though a small one. Flared back doesn't seem to do anything, however... I've owned 1911s with both and seen no difference in ejection whatsoever.

Beveling the mag well is an improvement. Removing the sharp edges and shortening the hammer to prevent bite is an improvement.

Ramped barrels are an improvement for high-pressure cartridges, but are a waste of time in .45 ACP. Bull barrels are neat, but reduce recoil only because of simple weight addition... and nobody said a steel 1911 was a lightweight.

Accurizing and trigger jobs were done by Colt almost from the get-go, and are obvious objective performance improvements.

Many modern finishes are better than bluing or parkerizing, but none of them look quite as nice.

Other than that? Adjustable sights mainly cater to game guns. Gas pedal thumb safeties, beavertails, and undercut trigger guards will give you a higher grip... if you want one. To me, it seems wierd to invent a technique for using the gun that requires that you replace the thumb safety, grip saftey, and cut the frame for it to work. Funny how folks shooting SigSauers and HKs can get by without radically re-working the grip profile of the gun.

Of course, alot of this is just a function of personal biases... this is what I call a full-featured custom gun:

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/delta_bark.jpg

:D

[pmbiker]

Another thing not mentioned is the adaptation to high-cap. The early paras were hit and miss, springfield makes one, kimbers are nice incorporating an external extractor-a big improvement. The biggest improvement to my collection has been a wilson kz-45. Take the best features of the standard 1911-ergonomics, pointability and caliber and give it 10 rd capacity, lightweight poly and stainless lower, sweet external extractor, wilson build quality and a fair price to boot. Some 1911 purists may not like it 'cause its different or may dislike the grip. I've found it easy to switch from my classic 1911's to the kz with no disruptions.
Functional improvement, a big one in my book.

[Skunkabilly]

'Better' sights, I like the Novaks.

[DMK]

Natedog, note that even the two classic 1911s that you posted pics of are different. Only the top one is the original 1911.

The top one is the original 1911(WWI timeframe), the second is a 1911A1(post WWI, WWII and later).

Notice the triggers are different. On the 1911A1 there are frame scallops behind the trigger, there is an arched mainspring housing at the bottom rear of the grip, and the "tang" on the grip safety sticks out more to help keep the hand away from the hammer. Also the grips are different, but that's comsmetic, not functional.

[Brian Williams]

the improvements to the 1911 needed are the ones incorporated in the 1911A1
Wider front sight and square notch in rear sight
Shorter trigger and frame cuts
Arched Mainspring housing
Longer Grip safety
Wide hammer spur

The only thing I would add is a plain small knob ambi- safety, maybe.

[DMK]

I actually put some deep thought into this topic about a year ago when I had the slide crack on one of my Sistemas requiring a rebuild. These guns are built true to original 1911A1 spec so I was starting from a fairly clean slate.

Trying to keep costs down and just add what I though would improve the functionality of the pistol, here's what I went with and why:

- New fitted barrel and bushing: Barrel to slide fit is probably the most important thing to consistent accuracy assuming a good barrel. Remember, the sights mount to the slide so you want the slide and barrel fit to be tight.

- Beavertail: I added this to facilitate a high grip and keep the bore axis low to reduce muzzle flip. A modified hammer is a requirement with the beavertail. Some folks may just cut down the original, I went with a Commander type.

- Novak Night Sights: Better sights will probably give you the biggest payoff over the original 1911/A1. Everybody has a different preference. I'm not crazy about the "ski jump" popular on rear sights these days, but it's hard to find good night sights without them. I really like these sights otherwise. I went with a bar/dot arrangment vs. three dot for simpler sight picture. I went with tritium night sights for better "low light" sight picture.

- Magazine bevel: My gunsmith threw this in for free, but less sharp edges is generally a good thing.

- Wider Ejection port: This one is probably not critical. My gunsmith recommended it, but I have never had a bit of trouble with the smaller port on my other, bone stock Sistema either.

- Wider safety: I did not go with an "ambi" safety. IMO, that's just asking for getting it snagged on stuff. I do like the wider safety though. It's much easier to get a positive catch on it and swipe it down. I do rest my thumb on it when firing. This is another thing that would be low on the list though.

You can see some pics and more details Here (http://home.mchsi.com/~dmk0210/1911/).

Here's a pic (http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/17971Sistema.JPG) of my stock Sistema. I like shooting it also and it does the job fine, but the custom gun is just so much more comfortable and easier to shoot accurately.

[C.R.Sam]

Perfessr,
You caught me with my ISP down.
Wanted to tell Nightcrawler to look at the frame dif last night.:D

Yup, A-1 covered it.

Sam

[New_comer]

I'd consider these as improvements:

- High ride beavertail grip safety
- Wide thumb safety
- Novak sights
- I like the front serrations on my 1911 ;)

[45auto]

I'll use Kimber in the early days as the model of functional improvements, at least for many shooters.

Throated bbl- decent fit and accuracy

Lowered ejection port
Extended ejector- both contribute to a better ejection pattern... away from your face.

Much better sights- front and rear.

Well made and hardened frame and slide.
Higher grip frame- better feel.

Less sharp edges
Beavertail does eliminate those sharp tangs on the frame, whether or not you use the high grip.

Beveled mag well

Commander hammer with decent out of the box trigger pull.

Overall I lot of good changes I think. :) And then, some not so good things, but they have been beaten to death.

[Correia]

For those of us with enormous hands a beavertail is a wonderful thing.

Sights are a huge improvement.

And most importantly, double stack magazines! 14+1 of .45 Yee Haw! :D

[Sean Smith]

A random observation...

The stock Colt thumb safety is BIGGER than almost all the manual safeties you will find on any other gun. Compare it to a CZ, HK USP series, Beretta, S&W, etc. and you will see what I mean. Yet so many folks make a big deal about needing an EVEN BIGGER one.

:D

[Nightcrawler]

You know, I agree that having the ability to add the Beavertail improves ergonomics for some people, and that's a good thing.

However, many seem to think a pistol lacking one is at a disadvantage or something, and I don't believe this to be the case.

Have to agree with Sean Smith. People invented a technique for shooting the 1911 with which the pistol was (apparently) incompatible in its original form. You don't see people trying to modify Sigs, HKs, S&Ws, Rugers, Hi-Powers, etc. in order to get a higher hold or something on the gun. The only other gun with a cottage industry for modifying its ergonomics is the Glock.

You don't see people complaining because they can't shoot their HK with their thumb on the safety. No one tries to modify the frames of Sigs to get a higher hold. And Sean is right, compared to a lot of other guns, the safety on a 1911 is HUGE. Some of the extended ones are like boat paddles...

*shrug* Probably just becuase so many makers make 1911s that there's lots of them out there. But then, Ruger is the #1 handgun seller in the US, followed by S&W, so it's safe to say that there's plenty of their autos out there too. There are CERTAINLY lots of Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, and HKs to be had.

Who knows? Maybe the 1911 as JMB designed it just isn't "good enough", ergonomically, for the modern American shooter?

[Old Fuff]

Difference?

The two on top probably work .........

[Daniel T]

Well, that's a laugh riot, since the one on the bottom is a Valtro, and I guaran-damn-tee you it works.

[45auto]

I think any of the guns picked for the 'action' shooting sports are going to become modified since they are being used by shooters that expend a lot of ammo and are, generally, picky about how the gun feels, since they spend so much time with it.

The classic example is the 1911, of course.

The 'new' example are Glocks that dominate certain categories of action shooting, hence the grip modifications, sights and the "unglock" type of trigger jobs you can now have with a Glock.

Plus, I don't think we see too many pistols that are designed with a frame as "sharp" and "pointy" as the 1911 mil-spec frame.

I think JMB would have revised the 1911 many times as an inventor and business man.

[Correia]

Nightcrawler,

I may get some unpleasant comments directed my way because of this, but I have a simple explanation why 1911s and Glocks are modified so much, even though there are far more Rugers sold.

The people who put the most rounds down range, and who are the most serious about their guns are Glock and 1911 shooters. :)

No wait, Sig and CZ owners, don't flame me! I think that there are plenty of really good guns out there. But I'm willing to wager that statistically speaking, the guns that get SHOT the most (not neccesarily bought the most) are 1911s and Glocks. Therefore because their owners are hard core shooters, they feel the need to modify their guns more than those folks who plink at cans occasionally.

Go to any action pistol shooting match. What do you see, way out of proportion to other guns? IPSC? Mostly 1911s, though the production division is dominated by Glocks. IDPA? CDP is all 1911s, SSP is the biggest division and probably 90% of the guns used in it are Glocks.

At big expensive shooting schools, what do you see? Mostly Glocks & 1911s. Some other guns are making inroads, but those are the big ones.

Hardcore shooters tend to tinker and modify their guns to suit them better.

Most of the hardcore shooters I know think 500 rounds a month in practice is no big deal. Some of the guys I shoot with do this every weekend. :)

Now the average Ruger owner will buy a bulk pack at Wal Mart once in awhile. No offense intended, my first pistol was a Ruger. I bought it because it was what I could afford, and I probably shot 50-100 rounds a month and was excited to do so.

But the reason that these cottage industries are out there for just those few specific guns is because that is where the market is.

[Nightcrawler]

I'm GLAD that Glocks and goofy-looking 1911s are so popular. That makes ME all the more ecentric and individualistic for liking classic M1911s, CZs, and *gasp* REVOLVERS!

And Glocks? :barf: Gag me with a spoon! (remember that one?)

So I'm not in the mainstream? Neato! :D

The only problem I have with the Glock and 1911 cults is when they do what essentially amounts to picking on other shooters for not picking their choice guns. "C'mon, everybody's doing it. Don't you want to be popular?" As they push a Glock into the uncertain hand of a Ruger owner who just wants to be accepted.

I don't think Glocks have the grip-mod cottage industry because they're so popular, though. I think it's becuase their ergonomics seem to be borderline for a suprisingly large number of people, something that the Glock factory addressed by making the grip LONGER with the addition of those finger grooves...whatever, Glock guys.

Realize, too, that that sort of pistol popularity can be cyclical. People see that everyone else at the match has 1911s, immediately assume that that's the best pistol for said competition, so they pick one up for it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a Sig, HK USP, or CZ will perform just as well at a gun game as a 1911 with funky mods or a bone stock butt-ugly Glock.

The popularity of the 1911 and the Glock for these sorts of events tends to make their respective cult members the most vocal on these internet boards. Glock fanatics tend to be more hateful, despising you for choosing another gun, insisting that their tactical tupperware is beautiful once you get to know it, but looks don't count anyway. (It especially cracks me up that they post pics of Glocks on the net, when they all look prettymuch the same, while insisting that they don't care about aesthetics and are true hardcore tactical-persons that put function over form.) I once had a such a Glock Faithful get MAD at me when I said the G21's grip didn't fit my hand well. He INSISTED that I must be holding it wrong.

The 1911 fanatics, verymuch the Crips to the Glockers Bloods, aren't so venomous. They tend to look at other pistols with cold disdain, confident in the inherent superiority of their pistols and in their own intellectual prowess for having the wit to see it. Sigs? Pshaw! Eurotrash! HKs? PLASTIC Euro-trash! Berettas? PIZZA PISTOLS! Rugers? BENEATH CONTEMPT! I once had a big-on-1911s-guy deride my CZ-97 for being "eastern block", unlike his apparenly All-American M1911s. (I pointed out that his Springfields are made in Brazil and his Para-Ordnance is made in Canada, a country a lot more socialist than the Czech Republic, and on that point he was inclined to agree.)

The funniest part, though, is the special animosity these two groups have for each other. Get them together and...WHOA!. Watch the sparks fly.

If any of the above lampooning actually offends you, dear reader, I'm not sure what to say. Well, two things. One, "too bad, I don't care" and two, "if you take the above personally, it's probably because you're a member of one of the two groups I'm making fun of".

If you really really really really like 1911s, and they're the only pistol you want to have, fine, just don't bash everybody else's choice. Well, just don't bash MY choice. I'm an Ayn Rand objectivist, to hell with everybody else. :neener: :evil:

[DontShootMe]

The people who put the most rounds down range, and who are the most serious about their guns are Glock and 1911 shooters.

I agree with this... at least in my neck of the woods.

[Correia]

Nightcrawler: "I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a Sig, HK USP, or CZ will perform just as well at a gun game as a 1911 with funky mods or a bone stock butt-ugly Glock."

Well there is one way to prove it! :D :D :D

I'm just messing with you NC. I'm looking forward to when you get out here, I'll take you around to some of the local matches and you can see what I'm talking about.

80% of the shooters will be using one of those two types of guns, and the other 20% will be broken up between about five or six other brands.

[Sean Smith]

80% of the shooters will be using one of those two types of guns, and the other 20% will be broken up between about five or six other brands.

Didn't think I'd see a reference to a variation on the Pareto Principle on THR. :D

[Correia]

Pareto Principle? I'm afraid I don't know what that is.

Just for an example, looking at top 20 shooters (all fanatical gunnuts) from the last match I shot:

1 CZ 75
1 Browning HP
1 Steyr M9
1 Walther P99
1 Sig 226
8 1911s
7 Glocks

[45auto]

Cz style guns have racked up major wins in IPSC shooting world wide.

One just recently in the US I believe. The indian, not the arrow for the most part.

Single action trigger of course. ;)


Some of the others need to work on their triggers and more importantly, sponser some shooters that can win whatever divisions.

[Obiwan]

A very well respected pistolsmith gave this advice for 1911's

Shoot the hell out of it and see what breaks/bothers you

Then fix/replace those things...if required.

That does not mean he doesn't appreciate customers that want every bell and whistle. He also feels that those going into harms way may want to invest in more durable parts up front.

Personally I have no use for FCS simply because I feel it is bad form to handle the slide forward of the ejection port.

Glocks work best whe you don't screw with them.

When Glocks don't work, it is usually some aftermarket doodad that failed

[Nightcrawler]

Correia, I wasn't suggesting that Glocks and 1911s don't dominate these things; I know for a fact that they do.

My question is "so what?" A guy with a USP won't be at any disadvantage to a guy with a Glock during match or a 3-gun competition, in my opinion.

I'm terribly happy that the two big cults are the majority, though. *shrug* Let 'em all fall in and march in lockstep if they want. :neener:

[Correia]

Actually Nightcrawler, once we give each other the secret handshake we dance the hokey pokey. Well, us 1911 guys, I don't know what the Glock guys do. :)

I was just trying to illustrate the reason why the most modified pistols are also the most widely used by hard core shooters. If Sigs became the most popular pistol in competitive circles then I bet we would see a whole bunch more highly modified Sigs.

And 45 Auto brought up CZs winning in Europe, and that helps illistrate my point. If you get a chance check out the competition CZs sometime, they are also heavily modified guns, and there is a small cottage industry over there that specializes in customizing CZs and Tangfolios.

I do agree though, it is the Indian, not the Arrow. You can be competitive with anything.

[Nightcrawler]

I know they have competition models of other guns. Sigs, HKs, CZs, you name it.

Most don't have significant changes to the ergonomics like you get when you want to shoot the 1911 with your thumb way up there. The 1911 is the only pistol people seem to want to do this with, too.

Is the stock bore axis too high? Higher than other pistols?

[Lone_Gunman]

Nightcrawler, life is a long time.

The guns you like now, you may not like so much later, or you may find others that you like even better.

Its just the way things are.

When I first started buying handguns, I loved the Beretta 92 and the Sig Sauer P series. I couldn't see why anyone would want an antiquated design like the 1911, and only a complete fool would spend thousands of dollars on customizing them. I thought Glocks were plastic sissy pistols, and the most hideous thing since Eleanor Roosevelt.

Well, 15 yrs later, I still own the the Beretta and Sig, and they are still really nice guns. But 1911s and Glocks are my main guns now. Tastes change. Variety is the spice of life.

My guess is, if you continue to enjoy firearms, one day the very guns you throw off on now will be in your collection.

[Correia]

No, not really, it is just that over time shooters discovered that the higher we grasped the gun, then our split times would go down.

I used to shoot with my thumb under the safety, I watched other (better than me) shooter's techniques and I noticed that many of them shot with their hands as high as possible on the guns. I experimented with this technique extensively and found that my split times were .01 or .02 faster, so I switched over to it.

I'm going to generalize here, because there are always exceptions to the rule, but the thing about IPSC and IDPA guys is that we don't do anything for style. We don't care about looks. We don't care about cool factor. The only thing that matters is shooting better. If a modification or change in technique helps you to shoot better, then we will do it. Plus we will experiment endlessly, and time and score everything. So improvement isn't just subjective, but rather you can see the results on paper.

So we don't shoot high thumb because it is what the cool kids do :) we do it because it makes us faster.

If a guy came out next Saturday with some weird euro gun that none of us had ever heard of before and whooped the pants off of all of us, I'm willing to bet that the Saturday after that you would see a few more guys playing with one to see if they couldn't go a tiny bit faster/shoot a bit better.

I joke about 1911 or Glock cultists, but most of the shooters I listed above own several different types of guns that they have experimented with for a long time. The P99 guy usually uses a Les Baer, but he was wringing out that Walther to see if he could do better with it. The guy with the M9 switches between it and a G17. I have experimented with a lot of different guns and settled on the one I personally shoot the best, and GASP it is a plastic 1911! :p

Talk and theory are great, but it is all about when the rubber meets the road, or in this case, the bullet hits the cardboard. We are all cultists, but of the Cult of Good Shooting. Our graven idol is whatever gun gets us there. :D

[Nightcrawler]

Well, unless Glock changes their grip frame to such a shape that is actually comfortable for my hand, and unless I can hold a 1911 with my thumb on the safety without it feeling awkward, I don't think I'll be too fond of these two specific types (Glocks and beavertail 1911s).

There are very very few guns I "dislike", though. Mostly it comes down to fit, at least in handguns. The two guns that are the most popular happen to not "fit" me very well at all.

Life is funny sometimes, neh?

Let it be known that I make no claims on being an expert shooter. It takes (on average) 10 years of frequent practice to become "expert" at anything, and I've been shooting handguns relatively frequently since, well, last June when I turned 21.

I don't even claim to be a particularly GOOD shot.

At the same time, I've never been an espeically competitive person. I don't know that I'll be able to really get into shooting competitions, even if I have access to them. Hell, I don't even measure my groups at the range. If I want to challenge myself I use a smaller target.

If a beavertail and a big long safety reduce your split-times for follow up shots in competition, then more power to you.

Me, I'm perfectly content with my spur hammer and regular grip safety. When I get so good that my weapon is actually hindering my shooting abilities, maybe then I'll consider changing up.

[Correia]

NC, nothing wrong with that. It is all about what works for you personally. Me? I can't shoot a double action trigger to save my life. Shoot all the targets in the legs, come away looking like a dork. :)

[JackStraw]

Just for an example, looking at top 20 shooters (all fanatical gunnuts) from the last match I shot:

And what type of action was the top 10 using last Sat?

That's right...single action (or glock action). The top two were 1911's anyway.

E. Langdon (a National IDPA SSP champ) shoots a Beretta 92 but I know his trigger is lighter than my 1911.

[asiparks]

Yeah, well, Correria, sometimes it's better to give the targets a stern warning and make 'em promise not to do it again...:D
Call me a poodle walking shandy drinker if you will, but I quite like having a pretty pistol. So long as no part of it actually makes my shooting worse or my gun more dysfunctional, I'm more than happy to have stuff extended, flared, lowered, scooped, french bordered and hi-cappedified.
Y'all can stick with old guns and y'all can have wind down windows in your cars too if that's what you want.
As for saying what would JMB do, who knows or cares? Bit like arguing John Logey Baird is whizzing round in his grave over that freaky "color" TV thing....

[Dr.Rob]

As the owner of a 1918 Colt Commercial model, some better sights would be nice, but I am NOT going to cut the slide of a 1918 commercial pistol to throw Novaks or anything else on it, when a little dab of orange sight paint will do.

My 50's vintage Commander has small sights as well, and again rather than CUT a slide or alter a frame for a beavertail, I just learned to suck it up and shoot the thing.

Never had to 'tune an extractor' on a Colt.

I've had numerous problems with my one-off Franken Colt Seecamp Viking ODI triggered 1991a1.. but thats not really surprising considering its a kit gun.

And for the record...

I'd bet you dollars to donuts that if the glock had a grip safety or arched mainspring housing you'd see an aftermaket seller making them in designer colors.

Heck a P99 ships with THREE different backstraps.. you think they could have sold those off as factory "options" later.

Guys like to customize. The 1911 is the most "customizable" pistol on the market.

Who mentioned front serrations for "checking the chamber"? Putting your fingers anywhere near the bore on a gun you think MIGHT be loaded is an accident waiting to happen. Why not just look down the barrel and see if you can see daylight through the firing pin hole?
:uhoh:

Oh and if you can shove the slide back with those two fingers on the FRONT of the slide you are probably using a lightwieght spring and shooting wadcutters anyway.

There has been a LOT of refinement in the 1911 over the years. Namely, a whole bunch of comapanies besides Colt have learned how to make them, and the sights have gotten better.

I'll agree with Sam (and not the first time) the rest is "Fins".

Dr.Rob

[Nightcrawler]

That's what a "press check" is, yes? Checking the chamber by grasping front serrations (which for some reason you apparently can't do with the rear serrations)? I don't know what differentiates the "press check" from "checking the chamber"...





I'm not really an objectivist. I've got enough going on without adding sociopathy to the mix.

[Tacblack]

The sights, slide cuts, bigger safties, longer trigger, beaver tail are all useful to me. Good thing that 1911's come in so many flavors. 1911's are all a little different just like their owners good thing, think how boaring it would be if we all looked just alike with the same 1911 at the range.

As for the slide cocking serrations I don't get why people feel so strong about why anyone would need them. If you don't like them, don't use them, and don't worry about who does. I have an SV with front and rear cuts got it in 1996, I have the rear slide cuts zero times. One day I will get a 1911 built just for me with no slide cuts in the rear, should drive everyone crazy at the match's:D

[Lone_Gunman]

As long as you dont put your hands and fingers in front of the muzzle, then press checking with the front slide serrations is no more dangerous than checking with the rear serrations.

Why do you think it would be more dangerous?

[Dave T]

I've been shooting handguns relatively frequently since, well, last June when I turned 21.



Nightcrawler,
You've come across with some very strong opinions and statements of fact. You might tone it down a notch or two until you've spent as much time shooting as some of us have picking up brass.

[jercamp45]

The answer: Good sights!
All else is icing on the cake.
I think the front cocking serrations silly, BUT I believe they got their start because it was hard to do a 'press check' when that silly full length guide rod was in the way! A Press check may be silly to some, but I perform one EVERY DAY before I put mine in its duty holster. I might have had a brain fart.....I want visual proof that there be live brass in my chamber. If I need it, I need it NOW and a click instead of a boom is not an option.
I like some of the functional mods: Flared ejection port, beveled mag well, tuned extractor/ejector, a polished feed ramp(if required..I have a series 70 Colt that feeds anything, no polishing, no lowered ejection port...has never jammed in my recollection). A gripping surface on the front strap is something I call functional too.
Ergonomics is personal fit. Long trigger, flat MSH, extended thumbsafety and the new high swept beavertail with bump works for me.
But mostly give me functional reliability and good sights!
I carried a standard 1911A1 for a few years and my only complaint was the itty bitty sights. They would do the job, but not as fast as I prefered. But I personally would rather have that ol' beat up US issue pistol on my hip than most of the high tech stuff I have tried since(Glocks, Sigs, CZ's, S&W, Ruger's, HK, etc).
Mostly that has to do with FEEL and being very familiar with the platform. I have found that the 1911 is what I shoot most accurate and most consistant with.
Whatever you want to buy and carry is fine with me. My responsibilty is to me and my hide.
And, yes, Nightcrawler...what Dave T said.....opinions gleaned from reading about a subject are not the same as opinions generated by experience. There is a whole big world out there with opinions, beliefs and distractions. And EVERYONE has them. Picks what works for ya, practise, train, pass the ammo, pick up the brass....
Shut up and Shoot!!

:D
Jercamp45
PS: Checking the chamber is to see if it is unloaded. A press check is moving the slide about 1/2 inch back to make sure it is LOADED. The old way was to use the tip of your non shooting hand on the recoilspring plug, disengage the tunmbsafety and pinch the slide back to see if there is live brass in your chamber.
I have had brain fart's before, I will have them again...I do not want one to cost me my life...so I check the chamber to ensure that the weapon is LIVE.

[Nightcrawler]

You've come across with some very strong opinions and statements of fact. You might tone it down a notch or two until you've spent as much time shooting as some of us have picking up brass.

Why? My "strong opinions" are my opinions, and are generally regarding what I like and don't like. While that may change, a great deal of experience with something is not require to determine whether or not you like it. Specifically, beavertail 1911s and Glocks. It's a simple ergonomics issue.

"I may not know art, but I know what I like."

If any of my statements of fact are, in fact, not factual, I encourage anyone to point that out. Nothing ruins your argument faster than being wrong.

Unless, you know, you're a liberal.

But, that not being my situation, I do try to get my facts straight. However, I'm entitled to my opinions and will express them freely. If I'm wrong about something, tell me what and why. But please don't tell me to shut up becuase you don't think I'm experienced enough to be in the club. This isn't a frat house and I'm not a pledge.

And frankly, people with much more experience in things than I have made much less polite, reasoned arguments than I have. I refrain from name calling, I refrain from saying such and such firearm sucks, and I try to avoid broad, sweeping statements in general. I don't even POST in Legal and Political; little too heated in there for my taste. I don't like yelling over the internet.

No offense intended, Sir.

[dsk]

The more I shoot 1911s, the more I prefer the original design. Aside from better sights and not biting my hand, I've found there's very little the modern custom guns can do better. Just add taller sights and trim the hammer spur, and I'm happy.

[Rob96]

Originally Posted by dsk

The more I shoot 1911s, the more I prefer the original design. Aside from better sights and not biting my hand, I've found there's very little the modern custom guns can do better. Just add taller sights and trim the hammer spur, and I'm happy.

This couldn't have been said any better. Thats what makes the new Colt Gov't models so nice.:D

[Correia]

Guys, I would never dismiss anyone's opinions due to their age.

If I recall correctly Rob Leatham won his first World Championship at 22. :)

Everybody has opinions, nothing wrong with that. Find what works for you personally, and run with it.

[Zeke Menuar]

Back to the original topic.

Of all the mods that I have done to my 1911's the one that seemed to help the most was the cut under the triggerguard. Helped me get a better grip on the gun. My LW Commander has some snappy recoil depending on ammo and the cut under the triggerguard helps me keep the gun under control.

ZM

[Tamara]

I always enjoy the pronouncements of the 1911 fashion police. ;) :D




(I always thought that half the appeal of the gun was being able to set it up exactly the way you wanted it, unlike many other guns where you'd better like it the way it came out of the box, because that's pretty much the configuration you're stuck with. :uhoh: )

[STEVE M]

Any gun can be improved. The trick is to improve it for YOU and YOUR

needs/wants. The 1911 and A1's are the easiest to do this with. No there

is nothing inhearantly wrong with the design of the pistol and it works

great the way it is. BUT it can be made to work better for a particular

individual than any other pistol I know of. If a different sigt works better

for you change them. If you shoot with a higher hand hold, change the grip

safety. Prefer arched or flat mainspring housing? Change it out.

My point is, an improvement is something that helps your type of

shooting and gun handling. If it works for you then do it. If it doesn't help

YOUR performance, then it's cosmetic.


By the way, what's wrong with cosmetic anyway?

[Dave T]

...please don't tell me to shut up...

Nightcrawler, I never said for you to shut up or that you weren't entitled to an opinion. All I said was to tone it down a notch or two. I have been shooting handguns for over 30 years. Some very strong "opinions" I started out with have changed as I gained more experience. That was my point.

...I would never dismiss anyone's opinions due to their age.

Correia, I never mentioned his age. If he was 55 (my age) and had started shooting last June I would have made the same point. I would be willing to bet more money than I can afford that anyone (ANYONE) with strong opinions after 4 months of shooting will change at least some of those opinions if not all of them after several years of shooting.

If someone is fairly new to this business, maybe they should watch, listen and ask questions rather than saying to those of us who use beaver tail grip safeties and shoot with a high thumb hold:

Let 'em all fall in and march in lockstep if they want.

[Nightcrawler]

Dave T, what you have there is a failure to understand my sense of humor. I find it ruins the effect to put *this is a joke each time I use a bit of irony or sarcasm, or poke fun at people, but it would save me an occasional headache.

FWIW, you guys haven't SEEN a "strong opinion" out of me.

[Al Thompson]

NC, usuallly the way it works is that it's the responsibility of the communicator to communicate. Using emoticons would make your message a whole lot clearer to those of us reading your words. You do come across as an "instant expert", which adversely filters your message.

[Quartus]

I don't know what differentiates the "press check" from "checking the chamber"...


That would be a good thing to learn.


Learning in general is a good thing.

[Nightcrawler]

Going off of Quartus' englightening post above, would anyone care to explain exactly what the difference between a "press check" and "checking the chamber" is, and why front serrations are (apparently) necessary for this? I believe I've asked this before, and a lot of people either don't know or aren't telling. I stand by my earlier statement, though, that if you're in a heated situation where your life could be in danger, this is NOT the time to be unsure if your weapon is ready to go or not.

I had thought that phrases like "the beavertail improves ergonomics for many people" would be enough to let folks know that I don't actually think that everybody that uses one is stupid or something, and that an emoticon wouldn't be necessary for each bit of sarcasm (that'd be a lot of emoticons, in my case).

However, I forget that people don't always read all of the replies before responding, as threads get long, and sometimes things don't convey well over the internet. (And many people just don't like or don't understand my sense of humor...poor souls...)

NEEDLESS TO SAY, if a beavertail makes a pistol fit you hand better, then fine, have on installed. But it IS a bit of a peave of mine when people act like the pistol, as issued in World War II, for example, is unusable, and all of the mods that are common today are NECESSARY in order for the 1911 to be a working gun.

However, if a regular 1911's hammer comes back and smacks the web of your hand, then they might be necessary for YOU. (Though, examining my Colt, you'd have to have some big mits for this to happen, I would think.)

If you want to get down to bone stock necessity, an extended hammer isn't necessary at all on a 1911, for how most people operate it. I mean, they could just bob the hammer and it'd make little difference. Being a single action only pistol, I don't think anyone thumb-cocks the hammer with any great frequency. With the hammer out of the way, the grip safety could be contured to the frame in such a way that it would stick out the least, minimizing overall size (sorta what Para does on their compacts).

This would make for a pretty ugly pistol, I would think, but it'd still "work", and would kind of make spur hammer vs. commander hammer kind of irrelevant (not that it's exactly world-shaking, ground breaking discourse to begin with).

[natedog]

Let's keep it civil, this is a great topic and I would hate for it to be closed ;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

imho, front slide serrations serve no purpose, since I press check by pushing on the bushing plunger. Front slide serrations are only necessary on guns with FLGRs.


The only things a 1911 really needs done to it are: replacement of the sights to high visibility fixed ones, bevelling of the magazine well, and a decent trigger. once you do that, you end up with a springfield milspec.

some optional mods that don't really hurt anything are lowering of the ejection port, replacement of the MSH to one that fits your hand, and adding an ambi safety.


my friend steven just got a springfield milspec, and i'm quite favorably impressed with them. it's too bad they don't make aluminum framed ones.

[Tacblack]

Front slide serrations are necessary for anyone who uses them.

[denfoote]

Yeah!! I'm new to this 1911 thing too and I'd like to learn what use the front serrations have!! :confused:

The one improvement I have not seen anyone mention, maybe all you experienced 1911 folks out there didn't think about it, is the concept of the full length guide rod. Actually, I DO own TWO 1911's!!! :what:
One is an IMI M5000 with the standard length guide rod. The other is my new Spring field 1911 A1 loaded. Now, the M5000 shoots OK, but the Springfield... MY GOD!!! This pistol shoots!! Never in my life have I been able to print 2" groups at 75 feet with a pistol. Even with my middle aged bifocaled eyes!! :eek: The Novak sights may have something to do with it, but I had a G30 that had Heinie Slant Pros on it and it would not shoot like the Springfield. I rather suspect the national match full length guide rod has something to do with this pistol's accuracy!! :evil:

[Rob96]

No need for a full length guide rod. But, like every other mod that can be made to a 1911, this is strictly opinion. I still believe that the farther you get away from the original design, the more prone you are to having problems. I'll take a Mil-Spec Gov't model every time.

[kcrowder]

Okay, front serrations can make it easier to chamber check your weapon. Grasp the slide from underneath the gun, don't sweep the muzzle, thumb and fingers on the serrations, press reward, check chamber. Using this method gives you better leverage, and the trigger guard will prevent you from pushing back to far. When your hands are sweaty, or bloody, the serrations can really help.

You can certainly use the rear serrations to do this, but the leverage isn't as great. When you exert the extra force to get the slide moving you might just eject a round, makes for a big oops. Using the hand on the top of the slide also makes it harder to see inside the chamber.

Now, as to what a 1911 needs, just about anything the owner wants to do to it.

[Nightcrawler]

Okay.

So, a "press check" IS checking the chamber, but it's doing so in such a way as to not eject the chambered round. It's presumably something you're doing in a gunfight, correct?

If so...at what point in the gunfight do you not know if your weapon is ready to go or not? If your hands are bloody, you've been wounded, presumably by enemy fire. If you're in this kind of situation, and aren't sure if the weapon has a round chambered, why not simply rack the slide quickly and return fire? A better question is why you didn't have a round chambered in the first place.

Checking the chamber is what you do when you pick up a weapon, to verify whether or not it is loaded. You should already know this by the time you holster it. You don't "forget" whether or not your weapon is loaded.

Or is there something about the concept of the press check that I'm glaringly missing here? It might come in handy if you pick up somebody else's dropped weapon, and don't want to waste a cartridge by ejecting it when racking the slide (thus making sure the new weapon is ready to go), but how often are you going to do that?

[Tamara]

I rather suspect the national match full length guide rod has something to do with this pistol's accuracy!!

I bet you could put the stubby guide rod from the other gun in it and it would still shoot just as accurately. ;)

[sm]

Being an CWG and all...:D

I can shoot a 1911 or 1911 A1 just fine. I do appreciate a smooth trigger, the chamber being such to feed JHP, and as my eyes ( not me of course) get aged, better sights. I use Bomar style ( fixed or adj) better , no dots, no nightsights, just plain black. It is my understanding shooters use to pay for the front serrations to be put on. I personally don't like, though some guns have...perhaps a dealie to make money back then and to sell new holsters today :) If for whatever reason I need or choose to, with the stubby guide I can easily retract slide from the front keeping hand under muzzle.

Guns need to fit the shooter. Pride of ownership is a great thing, Individual tastes are personal. The 1911 style allows one to run the gamut. Not many platforms can cause such diversity be it for 'em or against 'em. Though I don't drink anymore , I recall when I did the axiom: "Ain't no bad beer, some more gooder than others". I have my preference with 1911 styles, mine just more toward the original . Of course what do I know...I liked dark beer too...;)

[Tamara]

That makes ME all the more ecentric and individualistic for liking classic M1911s, CZs, and *gasp* REVOLVERS!

...

So I'm not in the mainstream? Neato!

In other words, if everybody was producing and toting milspecs, you'd be all about beavertails and Bo-Mars? ;)


(Paging Dr. Tejon! We've got a raging case of 'the virus' down here! :D )

[Sean Smith]

http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/meaning-of-life/thumbnails/07-rsm.jpg

Sergeant-Major: Quite agree, quite agree, too silly, far too silly...

[Nightcrawler]

In other words, if everybody was producing and toting milspecs, you'd be all about beavertails and Bo-Mars?

Maybe...but I doubt it. ;) The fact that the less-popular design happens to fit me better is a happy side-effect. If Glock .40s fit me the best, (perish that awful thought) that's what I'd go with, though for the sake of my own oddball nature I'd have to find SOME way to individualize it, though Glocks especially don't lend themselves to this.

Glock fans: :neener:

As for "Iwannacoolgun" virus...if we were ALL really about what we NEED, we'd all have one pistol and a 12 gauge, and nothing else, right? So, in some way or another, we're all guilty of getting a gun simply because we think it's cool. :o

I heard on the internet that it was super-neato-torpeedo!

Will no one answer my question on the press-check? I'm still trying to wrap my brain around when such a thing would come in handy, but would do so in a situation where you're stressed/injured and might fumble so front serrations make it easier.

It's like that song from the '80s. We were all told to do the Safety Dance, but all there was to it was dancing around with your arms in the shape of a big "S", and they never told us why such a thing would even be desirable. It was just, "we can dance", and "everybody look at your hands", and no one said why.

[Andrew Wyatt]

A press check is pressing on the bushing plunger at the front of the pistol with your index finger while your thumb is hooked in the trigger guard. this is the most controllable way to press check the piece, though i've seen people use a two handed one hand pushes, one hand pinches pinch the front of the slide method with great success. front slide serrations grab leather holsters and greatly increase the retention of the holster, as well as increasing wear. a press check is done before you put the pistol in the holster, and is not done in a gunfight, as there are far more important things you should be doing.


FLGRs require tools to dissassemble the pistol for cleaning. This is bad. they also do little to improve the accuracy of the piece. I'm willing to wager that if you swapped guide rod/recoil spring assemblies, you'd still see the same level of accuracy.

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, so you pick the pistol up, insert a magazine, chamber a round, engage the safety if applicable, THEN check the chamber?

Why? If you deliberately chambered a round, you're already aware that a round is chambered, aren't you?

On the other hand, if you empty the pistol or wish to clear it, you drop the magazine, rack the slide to clear the chamber, hold it open to observe that the chamber is empty, then lower the slide and holster the gun.

When is a "press check" required? I ask because I've heard it talked about ALL the time.

[Correia]

I use a press check if at anytime I need to verify my handgun is loaded.

If I step into the box, and it is my turn to shoot, I can press check before the buzzer goes off.

If I'm a cop and I'm about to go clear a building, it can't hurt to press check my gun and make sure it is loaded. Hey, you never know.

Ever have one of those moments where you insert the loaded magazine, rack the slide, only to hear click because you did not get the magazine inserted all the way before you racked it? (not that that has ever happened to me of course, but you know, maybe somebody else). ;)

The press check is just a technique, that you either like or don't. If you like it, then front slide serrations are nice.

I'm not really a big user of the press check, but I do use the front slide serrations for certain kinds of malfunction clearance drills. They are handy for stove pipes because you can grasp the gun by the front slide serrations and hit the stove piped case with your hand as you retract the slide, rather than retracting the slide by the rear serrations and hoping for gravity to remove the case.

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, Correia, thank you for explaining that. Like pulling teeth, I swear. :)