I need help with H&K G3!!??


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crash32
December 23, 2008, 10:30 AM
I am in the market right now to buy a .308 semi-auto "evil rifle". The main rifle that I really do like is the H&K G3, but I am pretty confused. It is my understanding that the PTR 91 and CETME are H&K G3 clones. Am I correct?

Are the PTR-91 and CETME "knock offs" or are they great rifles also? Have they been improved in any way over the orginal H&K G3? Are there any advantages between buying a H&K G3 vs PTR 91 vs a CETME??? My interest in these rifles are pretty recent so I have not been able to fully research this yet and thought that this post would greatly help me. So if you guys can help me out in any way....thanks a ton!!

I have found that a good PTR-91 and CETME will run me around $1,000-1,400. I hope my numbers are not too far off...... how much should I expect to pay if I got a real H&K G3? Are there any advantages of buying the real deal vs the clones???

Thanks again!!

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Medusa
December 23, 2008, 10:34 AM
I personally can't say a thing about Cetme or PTR, as I've only handled G3 and it's Swedish clone, AK-4. But I've understood that the only thing that might be considered a "minus" is the fact that civilian versions don't have the pin-removable trigger group the military rifle has. That makes the mag release different.

But nonetheless, the PTR is well regarded here. But (another but :rolleyes: ) try one out berforehand, as the ergonomics are what they are, some don't like it at all.

crash32
December 23, 2008, 10:41 AM
The search was not working for me until about 5 minutes ago. I have found out some info and it seems as if the PTR-91 is a great gun. What is the difference between the PTR-91 and the CETME?

Also, are there any other .308 semi-autos I should be looking at other than the FAL and PTR-91's???

I would consider the M1, but I am looking for something that looks more "evil". I have many semi-auto rifles, but none of them are "evil" if you guys know what I am talking about haha.

woodfiend
December 23, 2008, 10:59 AM
The CETME is a Spanish version of the G3. In actuality the Spanish developed the CETME first, but HK made the G3 second, because Germany didn't want to have their rifles made in Spain (if I remember correctly). Both are excellent guns, but the furniture is slightly different, and HK is more widely known.

Now, the PTR-91s are made in Portugal, because HK sold the machinery and licenses to the Portuguese government. From what I hear, they are excellent weapons, and may be nicer than the original HKs. Personally, I prefer an HK made G3 or HK91, but its all because of the name for me.

I've seen HK91s around here for about $3700-4100. :uhoh:

woodfiend
December 23, 2008, 11:02 AM
Also, you may find some CETMEs made by Century. I wouldn't buy one. I have heard lots of bad things and some good things about them. They are made from Spanish parts kits, but the receivers are made in the US, and seem to be pretty crappy. I have also heard bad things about their gas systems.

If I were you, I would get a PTR-91.

TexasRifleman
December 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
The PTR-91 is a "knock-off" in that it wasn't made by HK but that's about where it stops.

PTR bought original HK manufacturing equipment and their rifles are made on the same machines HK would have used.

They are selling brand new barrels in various configurations so you have some choice in what you can get, and a company that stands behind their warranty.

I'm not sure why anyone would consider anything other than the PTR unless you found a smoking hot deal on a collectible genuine HK but then would you want to shoot and use it?

how much should I expect to pay if I got a real H&K G3?

If you can find one for sale you are going to pay 2x-4x as much as you would for a PTR-91 depending on condition and rarity. That's if you can find a nice one for sale, they have not been imported for a very long time. "Real" HK's are for collectors in my opinion, though they are certainly fine rifles. I just wouldn't want to be using and abusing one because of the value.

SoCalShooter
December 23, 2008, 11:06 AM
I just purchased from CWS a PTR 91 and its a great looking gun I hope it works just as well, but I do believe the trigger group is removable just like the HK91.

Thin Black Line
December 23, 2008, 11:42 AM
The CETMES I saw had a visible gap between the left side of the receiver
and trunion where the welds weren't completed just past the receiver rail
where the bolt carrier goes forward. Maybe this doesn't affect functioning,
but I never saw something like that left open on the German or Greek.

TexasRifleman
December 23, 2008, 11:43 AM
Now, the PTR-91s are made in Portugal, because HK sold the machinery and licenses to the Portuguese government.

PTR bought the Portugese HK machinery from FMP but they are not made in Portugal, they are US made now. Diaz moved all that equipment to the US when he started JLD which was later sold and renamed PTR.

The receiver and trunion (welded together) count as 2 US parts so they are clearly made here.

PTR's webpage shows the US made parts count for the rifle models.

stubbicatt
December 23, 2008, 08:33 PM
The PTR receiver, sights, bolt group, cocking tube and fore end hangar are pretty much the same as any G3 you will find in the world.

The barrel really distinguishes the PTR offering from the G3 or HK 91, both in profile, rifling, and fluting. It is the barrel of a rifle which is the single most important feature that will make it a "shooter" or an also ran.

HK made two versions of 18" barrel for the G3, one a polygonal rifling system similar to the Glock, the other a 4 groove, conventional rifled, barrel. As I remember the HK offerings had 12 flutes cut into the chamber.

The PTR91, has 8 lands and grooves, a heavy profile, and 10 flutes (that may have changed with recent production). The fewer, wider, lands and grooves are beneficial with the harder, military bullets. Much has been written on the rifling form in Garand barrels in particular... I think Boots Obermeyer or Krieger barrels, which, has a lot on their websites on this subject.

The 8 narrow lands and shallow grooves are gentler on bullets, and the softer jacketed, commercial target bullets, seem to favor this rifling form. I remember you used to be able to order Krieger barrels with either 4 lands and grooves, or 6 lands and grooves depending on the types of bullets you thought you were likely to be shooting. The 10 PTR chamber flutes vs the 12 HK flutes in the chamber are supposed to moderate the recoil impulse a bit, keeping the action locked up a scosh longer. Of course, the heavier profile is a common feature on target barrels.

Early JLD rifles had chambers cut to minimum dimensions, which is also a plus for accuracy. Guys complained that it wouldn't digest milsurp so well, and later rifles had more generous chambers to accommodate these objections.

I feel comfortable suggesting that on the whole, the PTR series will be more accurate than the HK91, shooting civilian match bullets, for the duration of the barrel life.

What you get when you buy the PTR91 is a reliable action, a heavy rifle, and a target grade barrel. I think it is worth what you pay for it, and it will outshoot *most* standard G3 or HK91s. Some guys are reporting consistent 1 inch groupings with the PTR and loads it likes.

The carbine length PTRs are a mystery to me, and I haven't tried one yet.

If you buy a PTR I think you are likely to be quite satisfied.

polik6887
December 23, 2008, 11:41 PM
you can now get a PTR with a 16" fluted barrel, and a scope mount welded to the receiver.

this solves two of my main problems with the G3, weight and scope mounting.

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