[RevNate]

I am coordinating an effort (in conjunction with the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association) to see a change made in the Arkansas CHL law which would allow churches and other religious institutions to decide whether or not to allow concealed carry on their own property. Currently Arkansas law does not allow carry in a place of worship, regardless of the preference of the local congregation.

Specifically, I need church and religious leaders who would support this change and who would be willing to express their support to the Judiciary Committee of the State Assembly, either in person or by letter. We have until the end of January to get it lined out- so time is crucial.

This is what I need:
Ministers- please PM me and let me know if you support this change

All Arkies- please speak to your religious leader about this and encourage their support. If they need more info, please put them in contact with me.

PM me for contact info and more details.

This is truly a grass-roots movement, so we need all the help we can get.

Thank you,
Nathan Petty

[razorback2003]

I found it very backward living in Arkansas, after paying a good sum of money to get a CHL, that i couldn't legally carry a handgun in twenty some odd places....that is rediculous when you look at the background check, class time, fingerprinting, and of course fees. Go somewhere like New Hampshire and Alabama (where licenses are dirt cheap and issued at the county level) and you can carry virtually anywhere...schools, bars, churches...it doesn't matter because that was the whole purpose of getting a license so you can carry it on you right? I thought it was so stupid that the Arkansas CHL is really good for keeping a loaded handgun in your car and going to the grocery store and that is it. If you want to be legal and go about your week, you are constantly taking your gun off you and leaving it in your car...then putting it back under your jacket....very very smart Arkansas lawmakers! They must not care about people's guns being stolen.

[ccsniper]

i am not old enough but i will talk to my pastor on sunday to get him to support it. he's as much a gun nut that i am.

[RevNate]

Just a bump and a reminder, with a bit of a (non) update.

Still no details on the specifics of the bill. Some have asked and as of today, the bill had not yet been pre-filed. My contact at ARCCA has been on vacation so I am hoping for some new info by next week.

Concerning the specifics- as explained to me, the law would simply remove "(16) Any church or other place of worship;" from §5-73-306 and would afford churches the same option businesses have, specifically that carrying a handgun would be prohibited in:
"(19) (A) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising
control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet(10) that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”. (from §5-73-306. Prohibited places.)

I have prepared a sample letter of support for those who would like to voice such. Again, at this stage we are primarily looking for "religious leaders" who want to see the change made to allow churches to decide whether or not to allow concealed carry in their buildings.

Keep spreading the word! We need support in place early if we are to avoid seeing this die in committee again.

Thanks,
Nate

[RevNate]

First, please let me say thank again to all of you who have taken the time to
discuss this issue with me. My goal is to find 50 pastors and church leaders who will voice their support of this change within the next two weeks. That means I need your help spreading the word. Please talk to your colleagues. Make some phone calls. Send out a few e-mails. We need all the help we can get.

Concerning the actual bill- as of today, the bill has not yet been filed. I
talked to Grant Exton from the Arkansas Concealed Carry Association
(www.arkansascca.org) on Friday 1/9 and got an update. Representative Beverly Pyle has indicated that she intends to sponsor the bill. Since the Arkasnas Concealed Handgun License program is administered by the Arkansas State Police, it is a customary courtesy for lawmakers to consult with ASP before making changes that affect them. That was done last week. Barring any derailment, Mr. Exton anticipated that the bill would be filed this week. But, lawmakers do what lawmakers want to do.

This is where your involvment becomes important. If we wait until the lawmakers get their ducks in a row, we may find that it is too late to get organized and get our voices heard. This is not about a single bill, or a single lawmaker's intent. This is about the right of a local church to exercise control over its own property. We also have to understand that nobody else is going to pick up this cause for us. It is up to church leaders to speak out on this one.

[RevNate]

A facebook group has been started to help get the word out and keep people updated on this.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58355088392

[RevNate]

We have a bill filed!! It is HB1237.
http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2009/R/Pages/BillInformation.aspx?measureno=HB1237

That means it is time to get our support solidified. Spread the word!

[ccsniper]

I just emailed sebastian county rep. Terry Rice. and i sent a couple messages via facebook to some of my preacher buds.

[edSky]

Good luck, RevNate!

When I took my CHL course our instructor - an ex Little Rock LEO - was talking about "gun free zones" and churches. He asked, sarcastically, did anyone ever hear of a shooting in a church? Never happens, right? He did tell us that carrying here and there may be illegal, but there is sometimes a thin line that, depending on the person, could be crossed. But at risk, of course.

Wouldn't you know, but a few days later there was a shooting inside a church in Tennessee.

I don't know the stance of my "pastor", Gene Levy, and would hope that he is not anti. I know he is liberal and democratic leaning, but one would hope he also remembers history and what an infamous German dictator did after suspending firearm rights.

Good luck, sir.

[RevNate]

ed,
Perhaps you might feel comfortable discussing it with him? Whether he supports it or not, it is at least a relevant topic of conversation. I doubt I would have any pull with him, but I would be willing to speak to him about it or send him some information if you think it would help. I'm just a "goy" but I'll help if I can :)

Shalom

[RevNate]

ccsniper,
Please inform your preacher buddies about the facebook group- Arkansas Pastors for Concealed Carry.

Thanks!

[edSky]

ed,
Perhaps you might feel comfortable discussing it with him? Whether he supports it or not, it is at least a relevant topic of conversation. I doubt I would have any pull with him, but I would be willing to speak to him about it or send him some information if you think it would help. I'm just a "goy" but I'll help if I can

Shalom


If you could reach out to him that would be great. He did live in San Antonio so maybe there's hope. I'd prefer to remain somewhat anonymous, because there are a lot of anti's in our congregation and gossip travels faster than grass through a goose. :)

[ccsniper]

ccsniper,
Please inform your preacher buddies about the facebook group- Arkansas Pastors for Concealed Carry.

already have

[RevNate]

HB1237 is on the agenda for the House Judiciary Committee this Thursday, January 29th. This is important because the last time a similar bill came to this committee, it died there. Even if you have already written a letter, please send an e-mail to the members of this committee. Your voice is crucial!


Send e-mails of support to the members of the committee:

Steve Harrelson, Chairperson steve@steveharrelson.com
Joan Cash, Vice Chairperson no e-mail indicated
Dawn Creekmore creekmored@arkleg.state.ar.us
Lindsley Smith smithl@arkleg.state.ar.us
Tommy Lee Baker no e-mail indicated
David "Bubba" Powers no e-mail indicated
Johnnie J. Roebuck roebuckj@arkleg.state.ar.us
Barry Hyde no e-mail indicated
Duncan Baird bairdd@arkleg.state.ar.us
Debra M. Hobbs dhobbs55@sbcglobal.net
Andrea Lea leaa@arkleg.state.ar.us
Butch Wilkins wilkinsb@arkleg.state.ar.us
Terry Rice ricefurn@centurytel.net
Darrin Williams williamsd@arkleg.state.ar.us
Steve Cole no e-mail indicated
Ann V. Clemmer avclemmer@sbcglobal.net
Davy Carter davy.carter@gmail.com
Jim Nickels nickelsj@arkleg.state.ar.us
Tiffany Rogers rogerst@arkleg.state.ar.us
Mary L. Slinkard no e-mail indicated

[RevNate]

From the blog of the chairman of the Judiciary Committee (I'm the guy mentioned in Update #1):

Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Clingin' to my guns and my religion

HB1237 has been assigned to my committee, which allows for concealed carry in churches. I'm from south Arkansas, so therefore I have guns -- a lot of 'em. Still, the thought of carrying one into the sanctuary has never crossed my mind.

I suppose it's the principle of not having control over one's own property (the most valid point), and this is obviously reactionary to the 2008 shooting at a Unitary Church in the hills of Tennessee. This'll be an interesting debate, because members on the committee know it'll be the first bill on the 2009 NRA scorecard.

Update: The first message on the bill comes from a preacher at a Fordyce Baptist Church. He's for it, he says, on the basis that each church should be able to choose for itself whether concealed carry inside the building is appropriate.
Update II: My pastor is less enthusiastic and points me to the church discipline, which prohibits firarms at events associated with the church.

posted by Steve Harrelson @ 1/27/2009 05:26:00 PM

[ccsniper]

your church prohibits guns at your events? my church hosted a "gunnin for glory" a couple of years ago. wouldve turned into an annual thing if not for the new land we bought.

[RevNate]

not my church... that is from the blog of the Chairman of the Arkansas House Judiciary Committee. He was quoting his Pastor, who I believe was referring to an official position of the United Methodist Church, of which he is a member.

edit: BTW, sniper- your Rep, Terry Rice, is a co-sponsor on this legislation. Good thing. I e-mailed all of the committee members and he was one of those who responded. He seems quite enthusiastic about the whole thing. I wish my Rep would even acknowledge one of the notes I have sent to him.

[razorback2003]

I carry at church everytime i go and I also live in TN. I haven't seen guns suddenly jumping out of people's pockets and going off during church services.

Arkansas messed up a long time ago by having twenty some odd places as 'off limits' to those who pay $150 to the AR State Police and another $100 for a class, and then requalify fees for a class and renewal fees every few years. With all the background checks, training, and retraining, you'd think that you could carry wherever you wanted...but no....AR says you can get a license but it's not good in twenty places!

In TN, we cannot carry in buildings open to the public (legal at private clubs) that sell alcohol for consumption (misdemeanor), property with properly worded signs (max $500 fine misdemeanor), courtrooms during a judicial proceeding (felony), and school grounds (felony or misdemeanor unless it stays in the car). Some people think it is illegal to carry in parks...but many lawyers believe it is legal....as do i...so i carry there. Most folks are generally asked to leave if 'caught' in a place with the properly worded signs or a place that serves alcohol. I have never heard of a true criminal charge of someone with a permit carrying at Chili's minding their own business. I can legally carry in govt offices, churches, when i early vote at a church, athletic events (if no alcohol or school related), and I don't have to tell the whole world "Hey i'm carrying a gun can i come inside?" before i step in someone's house. I also don't have to conceal if i don't want to. I will say i miss being able to throw a loaded rifle legally behind the seat of my vehicle though like in Arkansas!

[RevNate]

Judiciary Commitee review on this bill has been rescheduled for Tuesday, Feb. 3rd. I need letters to carry with me or, even better, church leaders who will attend. The time is here.

[RevNate]

fox16.com has a poll on their homepage which stems from this bill. The question: Should you be allowed to carry a gun to church?

All "Yes" votes are greatly appreciated.

[RevNate]

Arkansas residents- please sign the petition!

http://www.petitiononline.com/ARchCHL/petition.html

[lwsimon]

My letter to my rep:

Mr. Burris,

I am writing today to urge you to support HB1237, make your support known, and to vote in favor of this measure if it makes it out of committee.

HB1237, you may know, aims to strike the prohibition on licensed concealed carry holders carrying in places of worship. Upstanding, responsible citizens of the state of Arkansas should be afforded the ability to protect themselves in all situations.

Underlining the importance of this bill, a concealed carry permit holder Colorado recently stopped a spree killer before he could take the lives of more of her fellow worshippers. It made the national news at the time - you can read about it here. The article lists the shooter as a "security guard" - in actuality, in the meat of the article, you'll see she volunteered to be present for services that day, as a shooting at another church had concerned her.

Throughout my research, I have not found a single instance of a licensed concealed carry permit holder killing anyone in a church or other place of worship, either maliciously or by negligence.

I know John, and he'll vote for this anyhow. It never hurts, though.

[RevNate]

Rep. Barbara Nix of Saline County (District 28) has been removed as a co-sponsor of this bill.... but the GOOD news...

Rep. Dawn Creekmore of Saline and Pulaski counties (District 27) has replaced her as one of 14 co-sponsors. Rep. Creekmore is a member of the House Judiciary Committee (that is a very good thing). This makes three members of the committee who are co-sponsors on this bill now.

[ccsniper]

ive already signed the petition but at the moment, 34 signatures isnt really that impressive. we need more people to sign it.

[RevNate]

You are right, sniper. It is just a matter of getting the word out on it.

If it is any consolation, I looked at the signatures and counted 16 of them who I personally know are Pastors or Church Staff Members. I think that will have an impression on the Committee. Still, a couple of hundred would be nice!!

That is why I have been asking so many people to spread the word. Though I have been in the ministry for 15 years, my circle of friends in the ministry is really pretty small. I have been working to get the word out to all of the guys I know, but there are a lot more out there whom I do not know.

It would be a tremendous help if every Arkie here would take a moment today to call his or her "religious leader" and discuss it with them. Rest assured that this is not a fringe movement. These guys are not some crackpot half-wits with a bible and a pulpit and no knowledge of what to do with either one. These are Seminary instructors, church associational officers, respectable ministers and I can give my word that the ones I know on the list are exemplary men.

[razorback2003]

Good luck with efforts getting the church part taken out of the 'off limits' place when carrying in AR on a license. I go back home quite a bit to visit family and friends and would like to be legal when i carry at a church there.

I think the biggest reason these sorts of restrictions need to be taken off, in addition to crime happening anywhere, is guns are frequently stolen out of cars and then used to commit crime. It is kind of hard to steal a gun out of the church parking lot when it is being carried on someone's person. The legislature should be very concerned about firearms theft and realize guns concealed in a holster pose no harm to anyone and a holster is the safest place for a handgun...not a glovebox.

[Kim]

Has anyone contacted the Arkansas Rifle and Pistol Association. If not we need to. They have a web page. They are the umbrella group for gun clubs in the State.

[RevNate]

ARCCA is an offshoot of the ARPA. ARCCA pretty much does the political action work now. Nonetheless, ARPA is aware of this and- I am sure- supports it.

[RevNate]

Dick Armey is coming to town on Tuesday... but today the local news stations were all about the church carry bill which will be before the Judiciary Committee on the same day....

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0109/590527.html
http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Lawmakers-to-consider-bill-allowing-concealed/cW92v1ym9kGjid4P3XXFzg.cspx
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79456&catid=2

Typical slanted reporting. Inaccuracies such as references to "licensed gun owner" and "hidden guns." But big kudos to the majority of the commenters!

[edSky]

Has anyone contacted the Arkansas Rifle and Pistol Association. If not we need to. They have a web page. They are the umbrella group for gun clubs in the State.

I sent an email to their Yahoo group - Arkansas Shooters (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasShooters/).

EdSky

[RevNate]

Watch Fox and Friends on the Fox News Channel at 6:20am Central time on Tuesday morning, Feb. 3rd to see their coverage of this bill. Grant Exton from ARCCA will be speaking for the good guys.

[RevNate]

The House Judiciary Committee passed HB1237 with a "do pass." There was some debate, which I may fill you in on after I get some rest.KTHV, KATV, and FOX16 were all there- along with radio station KUAR.

This is a victory, but this is only step 1 of 5.
Step 2: This bill will be considered on the House floor. This is the time for ALL ARKANSANS to contact your state representative and urge the passage of this bill.

Go to http://www.arkansas.gov/house/reps.php to find your rep and get his or her contact information. Please reference HB1237.

Thank you all for your support.
Nathan

[RevNate]

HB1237 was either "passed over" or "pulled down" today on the House floor. Exactly which procedure was followed is unclear in the information I am receiving- but either is not a bad thing yet. Please allow me to explain...

Yesterday in the House Judiciary Committee meeting, the primary objection to the bill as written was that churches which chose not to allow concealed carry would be required to post a sign to that effect at each entrance, as per Arkansas law pertaining to other private properties (with the exception of a dwelling place, of course).

Some asserted that the state would not have the right to require such a posting (see rant below)*. It was discussed that perhaps it might be more proper to remove this requirement for churches only and leave it up to the CHL holder to assertain whether or not he/she would be permitted to carry while on the property of each individual church or place of worship.

Apparently, the bill is to be ammended so as not to require churches to post the signs. The bill is still on the House calendar for tomorrow 2/5.

*Rant: How is the State overstepping its bounds by asking a church to post a sign (as per proposed bill), but not overstepping its bounds when it singles out churches and requires them to prohibit all concealed carry 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (as per current law)??!! We must have "No Smoking" signs, "Exit" signs, and the state tells us how many designated handicap parking spaces we must have... am I missing something here? Truly, I know I am not missing anything. I think this one point (signage) was all the opponents could find to oppose as a constitutional matter. All other opposition stems from emotionalism.

[edSky]

Thanks for the update, sir. Whatever needs to be modified to move this forward works for me!

[edSky]

The bill's current status is "House 2/5/2009 2:20:47 PM Re-referred to the Committee on JUDICIARY COMMITTEE- HOUSE"

More info is at http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2009/R/Pages/BillInformation.aspx?measureno=HB1237

[ccsniper]

how long till we know if this thing is hooray or boo.

[RevNate]

Still a long process ahead of us... but it is the same one every bill must go through before it becomes law.

The purpose of the re-referral is apparently to add an ammendment which would exclude churches from the requirement to post signs if they choose to prohibit concealed carry on their property. That was the main point of contention in the Judiciary Committee meeting on Tuesday. It is still expected to pass the house, especially with this ammendment.

I do have mixed feelings about such an ammendment and argued against it in my testimony before the committee. Two objections I have:
First, it would require each CHL holder to inquire of the status of the weapons policy for each church.
Second, it is inconsistent with previous applications of the Establishment Clause and would require the state to impose a different standard on churches than on other private property holders. In principle, that mindset is the root of the flaw in the current law. So, it is just a matter of principle.

The ammendment shoudl be available for viewing sometime tomorrow morning. I will reserve judgment until then.

Regardless, I will still support this bill because it is a step in teh right direction. Maybe a baby step, but a step nonetheless.

[razorback2003]

If Church at Rock Creek wants to disallow people from carrying, so be it. I don't even think there should be a sign that makes it illegal to carry...signs don't have weight of law in a lot of states. I will say that if i was in Little Rock, I would not attend Church at Rock Creek or put money in their offering plate if they didn't trust a fellow churchgoer with defending himself.

[RevNate]

Sooo... I guess you saw my comments on channel 11 :)

edit: but I should also say that I am not sure if the Pastor's comments reflect the sentiment of the church as a whole.

[razorback2003]

I read the article on KTHV's website. A lot of people writing threads seemed pretty positive towards the state allowing people to carry in churches with a license. Why is it illegal for you to do so, if you are a pastor? I would assume that the church is your place of business? It should be legal with or without a license if you are a pastor, business manager, deacon, elder b/c those folks have a possessory or proprietary interest in the property....kind of like if you had your own counseling office.

[RevNate]

That article is the transcript of a story which included an interview I did with KTHV's Mike Duncan after the committee meeting.
I referred directly to the Church at Rock Creek because the committee chairman thought it necessary to read aloud in the Committee meeting an e-mail which he had received from the Pastor of that church during a break in the meeting. It was out of order to do so, and an obvious attempt by the chairman to sway the committee.

I never took the time to give some details on the meeting. Other than the aforementioned debate over signage, there was little opposition to the bill in the committee. There was one pastor present who spoke against it. Four pastors present who spoke in favor of it. One additional pastor who was unable to make it sent someone to speak in his place in support of the bill. There was also a security director from a church who spoke in favor of it. And Grant from ARCCA was there to support it as well.

The final vote was an audible vote and I only detected one "nay"- from Rep. "Bubba" Powers.

The meeting went much longer than anticipated. I wonder if some of it was not intentional, but those of us who came expecting HB1237 to be the second item on the agenda (as it was listed that way) found our commitment tested when it turned out to be the LAST item dealt with that day- after waiting through several other items under consideration as well as a recess to accomodate an afternoon session of the House. Some who were there to speak in support of the bill were not able to stay long enough to do so, and there may have been some who oppose it who had to leave as well. Most of us were expecting to get out by 11 am but it lasted until almost 3pm.

The Committee chairman (and House Majority Leader) Rep. Steve Harrelson is not friendly towards this bill. I would not be surpised if he were gathering opposition. The sooner it clears the house, the better.

[RevNate]

The ammendment has been filed. You can read it at http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2009/R/Amendments/HB1237-H2.pdf but it simply says
"Amend House Bill No. 1237 as engrossed, H2/2/09 (version: 02-02-2009 09:10):
Page 3, delete lines 18 through 24"

Those lines, to be deleted from this HB1237 by this ammendment, would have been additions to the law as the bill was originally written. So, essentially the ammendment simply leaves these proposed lines out of the bill:

18 (E) A sign posted as authorized in this subdivision
19 (a)(18) at a place of worship does not prohibit a person or entity exercising
20 lawful control over the physical location of the place of worship, from
21 allowing a licensee to carry a concealed handgun into the place of worship.
22 (b) This section does not preclude a licensee or a person with a
23 license to carry a concealed handgun recognized by § 5-73-402 from carrying a
24 concealed handgun into the parking lot or parking area of a place of worship.

Basically, these lines addressed an issue that legally did not need to be addressed since private property owners already have the power to make that discretion. (So WHY are they debating concealed carry in churches in the first place?????!!!!!)

Anyway, the bill as now proposed makes ONE change to the current law- it removes Section 1 "Prohibited Places" (a) (16) "any church or otherplace of worship.

So, as I understand the bill as ammended, churches would be removed from the list of prohibited places, and those which wished to prohibit concealed carry would still be required to post a sign to that effect.

I call this an improvement.

[RevNate]

Given a "do pass" by the Judiciary Committe as ammended. On the agenda for the House on Wednesday, Feb. 11.

[RevNate]

HB1237 passed the House. Stay tuned!

[edSky]

Congratulations, Nathan! It seems to be the only piece of political good news I've heard today!

[RevNate]

This brings us to our next- and most imposing hurdle- the Senate Judiciary Committee. I do not believe it will get through this committee without some serious wrangling. And I do mean serious. I don't want to publicly "show our hand" on this- but suffice it to say that we have put the call out for some help from the Big Guns on the national scene- and I'm not talking about the NRA. More details will be available as things progress.

It seems like we have come through a big battle just to get where we are today- but the truth is that the largest hill to climb still lies ahead of us.

This is action time like never before. I will follow up soon with some action items (AKA: Strategery!)

Nathan

[RevNate]

Welcome to phase 3. Here is the action plan.

Our next step is to get HB1237 through the Senate Judiciary Committee. This will likely not come easily. Hearing from you will make a difference, though. Listed below are the e-mail addresses of the Senate Judiciary Committee Members. Please be firm but respectful in your communications. The swing vote in this committee will likely be Senator Robert Thompson from District 11. His district covers Clay, Greene, and Craighead counties. Please, if you are one of his constituents, make a special effort to contact him. If you know someone from his district, please ask for their help.

To get this through committee this time, we will need to focus on rights rather than need. The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment and the Equal Protection clause of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment are on our side. Please point out that if it is wrong to carry a gun into a church, it is wrong on the basis of moral and religious standards and as such, it is the right of the church to make that determination, NOT the State. Current law is a violation of church rights. They will listen to that better than “I need my gun to protect myself.” We have to make this a constitutional and personal property rights issue.

I hope you are all sitting down for this one. The ACLU has been contacted about this and it is possible that they will be on our side. Stranger things have happened, I suppose. But this is drawing national attention already and the ACLU likes attention. It would be nice to see them on the side of the good guys for a change.

Here are the Senate Judiciary committee members. Please remember the above information and reference HB1237. Enjoy!

Senator Ed Wilkinson. Greenwood, AR District 6 wilkinsone@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Ruth Whitaker. Cedarville, AR District 3 whitakerr@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Henry Wilkins IV. Pine Bluff, AR District 5 hwilkins@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Jim Luker. Wynne, AR District 17 lukerj@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Sue Madison. Fayetteville, AR District 7 madisons@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Jerry Taylor. Pine Bluff, AR District 23 taylorj@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Robert Thompson. Paragould, AR District 11 thompsonr@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator David Johnson. Little Rock, AR District 32
johnsond@arkleg.state.ar.us

And for the ease of cutting and pasting:
wilkinsone@arkleg.state.ar.us, whitakerr@arkleg.state.ar.us, hwilkins@arkleg.state.ar.us, lukerj@arkleg.state.ar.us, madisons@arkleg.state.ar.us, taylorj@arkleg.state.ar.us, thompsonr@arkleg.state.ar.us, johnsond@arkleg.state.ar.us


Please note that HB1237 is not on the Senate Judiciary Agenda yet, but it is not too early to get started.

[RevNate]

HB1237, the “church carry bill,” will be reviewed by the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday, Feb. 25th at 10 am.
First- let me encourage those who are pastors, if at all possible, to be present for this meeting. I learned from the House Judiciary Committee meeting on this bill that our presence speaks much more loudly than our e-mails. We have almost succeeded in getting this through, but it probably will not happen without one very strong, final push. If there is any way possible, please plan to attend and let me know if you will be able to be there.
Our only hope of success is if we focus on HB1237 as the solution to a 1st Amendment Establishment Clause (so-called “separation of church and state”) issue. We need to be unified in this message: it is not the State’s place to single out churches and place a restriction on us because the State does not have the authority to decide moral issues for the church.
I will be getting more updates to you soon. Please let me know if you can attend this meeting.
Thank you,
Nathan Petty

[RevNate]

Three swing votes to concentrate on before the Feb.25th Committee meeting:

Senator Robert Thompson. Paragould, AR District 11thompsonr@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Sue Madison. Fayetteville, AR District 7 madisons@arkleg.state.ar.us
Senator Jim Luker. Wynne, AR District 17 lukerj@arkleg.state.ar.us

Looking for a pastor in both Luker and Thompson's districts who support HB1237. PM me.

Thanks!
Nathan

[RevNate]

Or maybe not...

The Senate Judiciary committee failed to pass HB1237. The vote appeared to be 3 to 4. Those in favor: Taylor, Whitaker, Thompson.
The bill's sponsor, Rep. Beverly Pyle, intends to work with a couple of opponents and work out an amendment which would satisfy their objections to the signage issue.
So, the bill is still alive. We just have to wait to see what amendment may be offered and go from there. Two more votes on the committee will do it.

The notes from my testimony. (And they still didn't get it):

I speak to you today not only as a pastor, but also in behalf of four dozen other pastors, ministers, and religious leaders who believe strongly that the passage of HB1237 is necessary to correct a serious violation of rights which are guaranteed to us and our congregations by the Constitution of the United States.

The question before you today is not whether it is right for a law-abiding citizen to carry a handgun into a church building, but rather WHOSE right it is to say whether it is right or wrong. As much as I would stand beside any Pastor who does not want law abiding citizens to bring a handgun into their church building, the truth is that any law which makes that decision on behalf of a church denies every church the right to make a free choice on a moral and religious issue. In the end, the state has made a moral and religious judgment for all churches and not all churches agree with it.

The commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” is often misunderstood. More correctly translated, “Do not murder” this commandment from God does not mean that believers are not to use necessary means to defend themselves against those who would kill them. In fact, in addition to meaning that we are not to cause willful harm to others, inherent in this command is also our God-ordained duty to protect others from harm.

Even Jesus told his disciples on the night He was arrested that if any did not have a sword, he should sell his coat and buy one to protect themselves. It was on that same night that Peter misused his sword and was severely reprimanded by Jesus for it. It was there that Jesus said, “those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” Jesus himself made a distinction there. Where we are never to use a weapon offensively or to do harm to an innocent person, it is our duty to provide for self-defense and for the protection of innocent human life. To do anything less is to violate God's law. It is absurd to assume that God's law ends when we enter the church doors.

This is where the current law oversteps the sovereignty of the local congregation. Every daycare in Arkansas can choose to allow or prohibit concealed carry. Every hospital, every nursing home, every bank, even Chuckee Cheese has that right and it is appalling that religious institutions have been singled out and denied that right with no just cause, which is in itself a violation of the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution- but where many have opposed this bill because they believe the current law is necessary to maintain the sanctity of the church, it is not the role of the state to preserve the sanctity of the church and it is not the role of the state to impose religious judgment calls on the churches.

Regardless of what policy any church may adopt when this bill becomes law, only after it becomes law will they be able to do it knowing that they got to follow their conscience, and not submit to a state-imposed religious mandate.

If there were 500 or 5,000 pastors speaking out against this bill and not a single one here to support it, I hope you would still see that the issue before you is not a matter of public policy preference. This bill might not win a popularity contest, but it does correct a wrong which has stood uncorrected for way too long. This is not a matter of public policy. This is a matter of constitutional right. The purpose of the constitution has never been to confirm the preference of the majority, but to protect the rights of all citizens- even a single citizen- and even to do so against the preference of the majority.

For anyone to assume that any religious institution is served favorably by the current law, I assert, is a naïve assumption. I concur with the statement by Dr. DiPippa (Dean of the UALR Bowen School of Law), that “religion can not be free if we protect only those people and groups with which we agree. Rather, the test of freedom is whether we are willing to extend its protections to those with whom we disagree.” Every pastor who does not want to allow concealed carry by law-abiding citizens in the building where they serve has the constitutional right to follow that conviction, but no right to impose that conviction upon others. For those of us who hold the opposite conviction, our rights are just as real and just as sacred.

Today each of you hold within the power of your respective votes the ability to make a choice- a choice concur with the preference of some, or to restore the rights of all. I trust your decision will be governed by the principles of freedom and religious liberty.

[edSky]

Sorry it didn't get out of committee today, Reverend Nathan. Thanks for the update. I'm not sure Max Brantley and the Arkansas Times helped us any.

[RevNate]

A few people have contacted me over the last couple of days asking about the status of HB1237. I just want to reassure you all that it is not dead- but the hill may now be a bit steeper to climb thanks in part to a single religious group. More details below- but I have had new people calling, e-mailing, and messaging me over the last couple of days. They were expressing shock that the bill was not passed. If we can get together better next time, I think we can overcome this.

I'll start with the general info:
The bill was not passed by the Senate Judiciary Committee, but it has a second chance. With an amendment, this bill can be presented again. An amendment has been drafted which I believe will satisfy some concerns without compromising the rights of any church or CHCL holder. I will provide the specifics of this amendment when it is made public, as I do not want to do so before it is appropriate.

Now, to the specifics. Whitaker, Taylor, and Thompson supported the bill. Johnson was not present, but he is a strong opponent. Luker and Wilkins are also probably hopeless but we don’t need to letup on them. The remaining members, Chairman Wilkinson and Sue Madison are the ones we hope will help tip the scales on the next vote.

Chairman Wilkinson made a point of recognizing his pastor and a colleague who was there to speak in opposition to the bill as "special guests." When debate for the bill came up, he noted that he was a Presbyterian and he had checked and found that four other members of the committee were Presbyterian, too. Religious liberty died right there.

The Presbyterian group opposing the bill is PC USA (READ THIS) (http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-gun.htm) . They are not mainstream Presbyterians and certainly do not speak for all Presbyterians, as I was assured by a very vocal supporter who is a Presbyterian.

I am personally troubled that the influence of a single religious group had that much power in swaying the decision of the panel. The only way to counter this will be with a room full of supporters when this comes up again. I was the only pastor there to speak in support of the bill. One other came in, but arrived too late to testify due to work obligations. Others had planned to attend, but were prevented from doing so for various reasons. It happens. Our schedules are very unpredictable, but next time around we need everyone who can to make a point of being there so that if we do lose a few, we won't be left in the same situation again.

Again, thank you all for your support. By the way- most of the pastors supporting this are not CHCL holders, but they do believe in the right of a church to make its own decision on this matter.

Nathan Petty

[razorback2003]

I am always on a journey when i go to Arkansas to visit friends and relatives because i live in TN. There is absolutely no prohibition to carrying inside a church when 'on a journey' with or without a license. You can carry pretty much anywhere when on a journey, including schools.

If you are a pastor, I'd carry because it is your place of business. Again no license needed.

How does the AR legislature think such a stupid law can be enforced against those who are not on a journey or who the church is not their place of business? It is already going on.....why not make it legal for everyone? I have yet to see metal detectors at any church in Arkansas or pat downs at the doors. This is nothing but a feel good garbage prohibition that lets guns be left in cars and stolen from those who want to strictly follow the law.

I am so glad I can LEGALLY carry in a church in TN because i paid my money to the TN highway patrol to carry. That is the way it should be in Arkansas.

Small handguns are a good thing in AR where you don't know whether you are legal or not sometimes...so best to be discreet and be protected.

[Hungry Seagull]

Arkansas honors TN Conceals and versa last time I looked. Because sometimes we may want to travel on a journey into TN for NC.

Traveling on a Journey is a good strong position for those who are not local.

It's eff'ing iffy for me to say Im traveling on a journey entering church 20 miles away.... but if that Church allows weapons and State allows it then.. no issue for me.

Im going to learn a hell of alot more after my CHL class soon. But I believe most of the churches in our area are non-denominational, Baptist and a few Lutheran, Pentacostals and so on. Why should one set be allow to speak for all inside our State Capital?

[RevNate]

It looks like a majority of the Senate Judiciary committee members have banded together to kill this bill.
This is a good time for them to hear from the citizens of Arkansas. The only reason churches are on the list of prohibited places is because the state made a religious judgment call in behalf of all the churches of Arkansas- assuming that a church was no place for a firearm. There is no public safety concern applicable to churches which is not also applicable to other places which are not on the list- such as daycares, nursing homes, hospitals, banks, or funeral homes.
The only reason this has stalled is because some liberal lawmakers have branded it a gun issue rather than a private property rights issue. It is troubling enough that calling it a "gun issue" somehow makes it okay to kill the bill- as if the Second Amendment was in some way a less than desireable law- but to see them deny the rights of private property owners (churches) just because they want to restrict law-abiding gun owners is outright shameful.
Yes, I am mad. I wish I could tell the whole story here and you would understand why I am angry. These anti-gun members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have failed the people of Arkansas, failed the US Constitution, and failed to keep their oath to uphold the Constitution. I hope those who have stalled it find themselves looking for work after the next election.
Taylor, Whitaker, and Thompson are your friends, citizens of Arkansas.
Wilkinson, Wilkins, Luker, Madison, and Johnson would rather see you unarmed and defenseless in a place where only criminals will carry guns.

[RevNate]

I would like to urge every arkansas resident to let the Senate Judiciary committee know about the following incidents:

http://wjz.com/local/police.church.shooting.2.941531.html

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/03/shooting-church-maryville-st-louis.html

Two church shootings in the past three Sundays. And one occurred while off-duty police officers were on guard.
Tragic stories. Both victims dead. But at least someone was there to catch the bad guys after they had murdered.

For your conveneince:
whitakerr@arkleg.state.ar.us, hwilkins@arkleg.state.ar.us, lukerj@arkleg.state.ar.us, madisons@arkleg.state.ar.us, taylorj@arkleg.state.ar.us, thompsonr@arkleg.state.ar.us, johnsond@arkleg.state.ar.us

Thanks,
Nate

[Hungry Seagull]

I'll see about getting something into the mail box down that way.

[RevNate]

Rep. Pyle will be running HB1237 again. This means this is our LAST chance to get our voices heard on this. I will let you know as soon as I find out when this will happen.

Please see the story here. Some good details:
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=81421&catid=2

This is obviously a response to the murder of Pastor Fred Winters in Illinois
this past Sunday. That makes two church murders in the U.S. since this bill was sent to the Senate (the other, Patricia Ann Kelly, was murdered by her estranged husband at a church where three off-duty police officers were on guard on Feb. 22 in Maryland).
It is a shame that something less than dead bodies would not catch the attention of the Judiciary Committee members.

Thanks,
Nathan

[Hungry Seagull]

I was just about to post that same link.

Seems that recent church shooting in Illinois caused some of our Lawmakers to reconsider. Now we have a chance to get the rest on board.

It would be very good indeed to see this bill advance. Particularly after killing in a church.

[RevNate]

HB1237, the “church carry bill” is on the agenda for the Senate Judiciary Committee TOMORROW, Wednesday, March 11. Right now I am waiting on a confirmation as to whether or not the bill will actually be run tomorrow. But, since it is such short notice, I wanted to give everyone a big heads up on this. I will send out another message later this evening to confirm this agenda, but right now it looks like 10 am tomorrow.
Please do not think that HB1237 is going to pass easily. We still need your physical presence and your vocal support in this meeting. It will still be very close.
Thank you,
Nathan Petty

[RevNate]

The Senate Judiciary Committee will hear HB1237 on Wednesday, March 18 at 10am- that is one week from today.
I think we were all caught off guard when HB1237 was not passed by this committee last time. But this is our second chance- a chance to do it right. The sentiment of some committee members is beginning to sway towards supporting this bill. A strong show of support next Wednesday will undoubtedly help tip the scales in our favor.
The Senate Judiciary Committee will meet in room 171. Enter the Capitol building on either the east or west side. If entering the east, go under the stairs and enter through the glass doors. Room 171 is in the south wing of the Capitol. When you reach the stairs on the south end, look to your left and there you will see room 171.
I have found that some folks have been reluctant to attend these meetings because it sounds intimidating: big granite building filled with worsted wool and super-egos. But don’t be intimidated. That’s your building and those people are there to listen to you.
Please let me know if you plan to attend so that we can get an idea on where we will stand with supporters. Regardless of which way this goes, this will be the last chance any of us have to make our voices heard on HB1237. I am optimistic, but cautiously so.
Thanks,
Nathan

[Hungry Seagull]

RevNate, it aint the building. I was around DC quite a bit in youth.

Watch out for that parking down there. We aint got booted yet.... That is our biggest concern. Parking.

If many people show up parking is going to be a challenge.

[RevNate]

I hesitate to post this publicly for fear that I may not find parking, but...

DF&A building. South side. East Lot :) The earlier the better.

[RevNate]

Amendendment filed to the bill.
As amended, it would now read:
"(16) Any church or place of worship unless otherwise permitted
by the church or place of worship;"
This will completely remove the debate over signs and will allow each church to set its own policy.

[RevNate]

HB1237 has been amended again and as it now stands would read, “"(16) Any church or place of worship except that this subdivision (16) does not apply to a church or place of worship if the church or place of worship has specifically authorized a licensee to carry a concealed handgun into the church or place of worship;”
I will be honest and say that I am not totally happy with this wording, but I will still support it. The bill’s sponsor, Rep. Pyle, has tried every imaginable option to formulate wording that will get this bill out of this committee. As it stands now, this wording should pass.
I am very unhappy about the letter of the law in this bill, but I support it because in the end it will allow a church to make its own decision. As it was explained to me, a church would simply have to say “we will not prosecute anyone who lawfully carries or uses a concealed weapon” without actually authorizing anyone to carry.
This bill will go before the Senate Judiciary Committee again tomorrow (March 18th) at 10 am in room 171.

[RevNate]

Change of plans. Rep. Pyle has decided NOT to run the bill on Wednesday due to an unavoidable circumstance. I apologize for the late notice.
I will post an update when something changes.
Nathan

[RevNate]

HB1237 is slated to be run before the Senate Judiciary Committee TOMORROW Wednesday March 25 at 10 am.
Here is the situation: We have 4 solid votes and one who is “iffy.” Five are needed to pass this bill. Discussions are taking place this afternoon to solidify the 5 needed votes. The one on the fence is Hank Wilkins. He has stated that his decision may come down to testimony offered in the meeting tomorrow.
The people behind this bill have contacted me and asked if we (pastors, supporters) could be on standby if we are needed tomorrow. I will know sometime this evening- though it may be late- if there is a need for us to be there.
I'm just giving everyone a heads-up. If you are able, please make tentative plans to attend this meeting and speak in support of HB1237. I will send out another update this evening as soon as I receive word on whether our presence will be necessary.
Again- the sponsor DOES plan to run the bill tomorrow, and it MAY come down to how many supporters vs. opponents are in the room.

[Hungry Seagull]

Hank Wilkins?

http://www.arkansas.gov/senate/details.php?district=5

Is this Him?

This fella is probably going to be a little tough to sway one way or the other. Pine Bluff is a very tough place with much trouble and Prisions.

I wonder if there has been any kind of Positive incidents or events in Pine Bluff recently where law abiding citizens actually did some good with weapons.

[RevNate]

HB1237 will be run tomorrow and we do need to be there. The final decision will likely come down to the testimony given during this meeting.
Sen. Hank Wilkins, the swing vote, is a minister. It would likely be helpful to address the issue of church rights and the state's error in overstepping its bounds to make a religious decision.
Meeting is 10 am in room 171. We especially need pastors who will support this to be present. All support is welcomed and will be beneficial, but in the end it will probably be the voice of the pastors which will speak most loudly to the committee.
Thanks,
Nathan

[RevNate]

You can read the story here:
http://www.arkansascca.org/blog/?content=detail&id=322

Hopeully an AG opinion will fix this problem.