What's that waiting period on long guns in Miami-Dade County, FL?


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treeman
December 23, 2008, 05:45 PM
Like the subject says?...I always thought there was no waiting period on shotguns/rifles? What's the waiting period and when did it change? I want to get this straight.

Thanks!

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treeman
December 23, 2008, 11:19 PM
Thanks for the link, great info. Much appreciated.

I was unable to find any reference to Miami Dade having 3 day for long gun? Is there anywhere that could confirm this specifically for Miami dade? I was told that it was 5 days for all guns in Miami dade?

Thanks

treeman
December 24, 2008, 12:23 AM
"Counties are authorized to enact three to five-day waiting periods, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring in or on "property to which the public has the right of access" within the county."

This is the part that I am trying to confirm, specifically regarding Miami Dade county...I was told it is 5 days for ALL guns in Miami Dade. I would like to see this in writing but have not been able to confirm it.

treeman
December 24, 2008, 02:03 AM
Will do...thanks for the help.

divemedic
December 24, 2008, 06:07 AM
Ask and ye shall receive.

Art VIII, Section 5 of the Florida Constitution:

(b) Each county shall have the authority to require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring within such county. For purposes of this subsection, the term "sale" means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration for any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by general law shall not be subject to the provisions of this subsection when purchasing a firearm.

Here is the Dade County ordnance:

(d) Sale and delivery of firearms; mandatory criminal records check. No person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access within Miami-Dade County until all procedures specified under section 790.065, Florida Statutes, have been complied with by a person authorized by that section to conduct a criminal history check of background information as specified in that section, and the approval number set forth by that section has been obtained and documented. Upon the repeal of section 790.065, Florida Statutes, no person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access until all procedures specified under any other state or federal law which requires a national criminal history information or national criminal history check on potential buyer or transferee of firearms have been complied with by any person authorized by law to conduct the required national criminal history or background records check and any required approval under such state or federal law or rule has been obtained. "Person" for purposes of this subsection shall include any person, including, but not limited to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer and any unlicensed person.
In the case of a seller who is not a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, compliance with section 790.065 or its state or federal successor shall be achieved by the seller requesting that a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer complete all the requirements of section 790.065 or its state or federal successor. Licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers may charge a reasonable fee of an unlicensed seller to cover costs associated with completing the requirements of section 790.065.
(e) Exemptions. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by state law and holders of an active certification from the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission as a law enforcement officer, a correctional officer, or a correctional probation officer as set forth in state law shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.
Sales to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.

This law would only apply to sales that occur on property owned by the government. This law could easily be avoided by gun show organizers, as ll they would have to do is have the gun show on private property. You can also have a CCW and avoid the law as well.

treeman
December 24, 2008, 11:09 AM
Thanks Divemedic.

I still don't see the actual number of days of waiting period for Miami Dade county in that info though. I was told that it was 5 days but everything I have read says 3 days for state of Florida. I would like to see something that states the actual number of days waiting period for Miami Dade for handguns AND long guns...I can't seem to find that anywhere.

Thanks!

subknave
December 24, 2008, 11:43 AM
Okay first WHO told you it was 5 days?? Everythig seems to point to they were WRONG.

treeman
December 24, 2008, 11:57 AM
It was actually an FFL so I assume he is right but I just want to see it in writing somewhere.

"(b) Each county shall have the authority to require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring within such county. "

It does say that counties have the right to impose 3-5 day wait period I just need to know if Miami Dade is one of those counties. He told me there was a 5 day wait for all guns (handguns AND long guns) in Miami Dade.

subknave
December 24, 2008, 12:09 PM
I did some checking and it appears Miami-dade is confused. It has two ordinances. You can read about it here:

http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10620&sid=9

It seems like there is a 3 day waiting period for handguns and a five day period for firearms?? There was a court case about this awhile back but I can't find it now.

You want chapter 21, article III. There appears to be 3 days for a handgun from a "retail establishment" and 5 days from a "place accessable by the public. Isn't a store accessable by the public?

deadin
December 24, 2008, 12:42 PM
conducted on property to which the public has the right of access

This law would only apply to sales that occur on property owned by the government

Isn’t there a conflict between those that argue a store (i.e. WallMart, etc.) is a “public access” location that has no right to ban concealed carry and a gun show that is open to the public?

treeman
December 24, 2008, 12:45 PM
Holy moly!! you found it. I REALLY appreciate that. No wonder I am having a hard time getting a straight answer. It's 3 days but it's also 5 days??? I wonder if anyone can clear this up? My guess is that it is indeed 5 days but why the contradiction? Can anyone explain these two points?

Also, it seems that the 5 day applies to all firearms (hand guns and long guns)? Or am I missing something here?

Is this statement true: To buy any firearm (hand gun, rifle, or shotgun) in Miami Dade at a retail store you must wait 5 days if you do not have a cwp?

What about this statement: To buy any firearm (hand gun, rifle, or shotgun) in Miami Dade at a retail store you must wait 5 days if you do not have a cwp or own another firarm and can show proof with a receipt?


Thanks again guys!
_________________________________________________
Sec. 21-20.14.1. Three working days waiting period.
(a) Definitions.
Purchase means payment of deposit, payment in full, or notification of intent to purchase.
Retail establishment means gun shop, sporting goods store, pawn shop, hardware store, department store, discount store, bait or tackle shop, or any other store or shop that offers handguns for walk-in retail sale but does not include gun collectors shows or exhibits, or gun shows.
(b) Applicability. This section shall apply to all sales of handguns to individuals by retail establishments unless exempted in subsection (d) hereof.
(c) Prohibition. It shall be unlawful and a violation of this section for any retail establishment to deliver a handgun to a purchaser within three (3) working days after the purchase of the handgun. It shall be unlawful and a violation of this section for any individual to take possession of a handgun within three (3) working days after the purchase of the handgun. Records of handgun sales by retail establishments shall be available for inspection during normal business hours by any law enforcement agency as defined in Section 934.02, Florida Statutes.
(d) Exceptions. The following shall be exempted from the provisions of this section.
(1) Individuals who are licensed to carry concealed firearms under the provisions of Section 790.06, Florida Statutes, or who are licensed to carry concealed firearms under any other provisions of State law and who show a valid license;
(2) Individuals who already lawfully own another firearm and who show a sales receipt for another firearm; who are known to own another firearm through a prior purchase from the retail establishment; or who have another firearm for trade-in;
(3) A law enforcement or correctional officer as defined in Section 943.10, Florida Statutes;
(4) A law enforcement agency as defined in Section 943.02, Florida Statutes;
(5) Sales or transactions between dealers or between distributors or between dealers and distributors who have current federal firearms licenses; or
(6) Any individual who has been threatened or whose family has been threatened with death or bodily injury, provided the individual may lawfully possess a firearm and provided such threat has been duly reported to Miami-Dade Police Department or any municipal police department within Miami-Dade County, Florida.
(e) Penalties. Every person who is convicted for a violation of this section shall be punished upon a first conviction by imprisonment for not less than six (6) months or by a fine of not less than one thousand dollars ($1,000.00) or by both such fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court and on a second and subsequent conviction shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one (1) year or by a fine of not less than one thousand dollars ($1,000.00) or by both such fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court.
(Ord. No. 87-31, § 2, 5-19-87; Ord. No. 88-57, § 1, 6-21-88)
_________________________________________________




______________________________________________________
Sec. 21-20.18. Five-day waiting period and criminal history records check on firearms sales.
(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall be defined as follows:
(1) Any part of the transaction means any part of the sales transaction, including but not limited to, the offer of sale, negotiations, the agreement to sell, the transfer of consideration, or the transfer of the firearm.
(2) Antique firearms means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and any replica of any such firearm if such replica (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(3) Firearm means any weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; and firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
(4) Property to which the public has the right of access means any real or personal property to which the public has a right of access, including property owned by either public or private individuals, firms and entities and expressly includes, but is not limited to, flea markets, gun shows and firearms exhibitions.
(5) Sale means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration.
(b) Application and enforcement of section. Law enforcement officers shall have the right to enforce the provisions of this section against any person found violating these provisions within their jurisdiction.
(c) Sale and delivery of firearms; mandatory five-day waiting period. There shall be a mandatory five-day waiting period, which shall be five full days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the hour of the sale and the hour of the delivery of any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted within Miami-Dade County on property to which the public has the right of access.
(d) Sale and delivery of firearms; mandatory criminal records check. No person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access within Miami-Dade County until all procedures specified under section 790.065, Florida Statutes, have been complied with by a person authorized by that section to conduct a criminal history check of background information as specified in that section, and the approval number set forth by that section has been obtained and documented. Upon the repeal of section 790.065, Florida Statutes, no person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access until all procedures specified under any other state or federal law which requires a national criminal history information or national criminal history check on potential buyer or transferee of firearms have been complied with by any person authorized by law to conduct the required national criminal history or background records check and any required approval under such state or federal law or rule has been obtained. "Person" for purposes of this subsection shall include any person, including, but not limited to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer and any unlicensed person.
In the case of a seller who is not a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, compliance with section 790.065 or its state or federal successor shall be achieved by the seller requesting that a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer complete all the requirements of section 790.065 or its state or federal successor. Licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers may charge a reasonable fee of an unlicensed seller to cover costs associated with completing the requirements of section 790.065.
(e) Exemptions. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by state law and holders of an active certification from the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission as a law enforcement officer, a correctional officer, or a correctional probation officer as set forth in state law shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.
Sales to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.
(f) Penalties. Any person violating any provision of this section shall be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00) or by imprisonment not to exceed sixty (60) days in the County Jail, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Nothing contained herein shall be construed to preempt the imposition of any higher penalties imposed by state or federal law.
(g) Reporting of information. To the fullest extent permissible by law, all information acquired in relation to a violation of this section shall be reported to appropriate federal and state officials.
(Ord. No. 98-169, § 1, 12-1-98)
__________________________________________

divemedic
December 25, 2008, 08:45 AM
Isn’t there a conflict between those that argue a store (i.e. WallMart, etc.) is a “public access” location that has no right to ban concealed carry and a gun show that is open to the public?

No. There is no right of access to Wal Mart's property, but a license to enter. The public only has a right to access certain property owned by the government, such as the Fairgrounds and Civic Centers that many gun shows use. You are talking about two totally different arguments.

When you open your property to the public, there are certain laws that you must now follow, including fire codes, handicap access, non-discrimination, etc. You can avoid many of those laws by closing your property to the public. Since the public has no right of access, you can do so (except for certain easements- see below)

Also, it seems that the 5 day applies to all firearms (hand guns and long guns)? Or am I missing something here? Yes, it does, as long as any part of the transaction takes place on property where the public has a right of access.

Is this statement true: To buy any firearm (hand gun, rifle, or shotgun) in Miami Dade at a retail store you must wait 5 days if you do not have a cwp? No, only sales where any part of the transaction occurs on property where the public has a right of access.

What about this statement: To buy any firearm (hand gun, rifle, or shotgun) in Miami Dade at a retail store you must wait 5 days if you do not have a cwp or own another firarm and can show proof with a receipt? The 5 day waiting period that applies to property where the public has a right of access has no exemption for those who own another weapon. CCW is exempt. Even LEOs are not exempt, unless they also have a CCW.



Remember that the phrase is "if any part of the transaction occurs on property to which the public has the right of access." This applies to most gun shows, because they are frequently held in government owned buildings, fairgrounds, and convention centers. It also applies to sidewalks, streets, parks, etc.

What I find interesting is this:

Any part of the transaction means any part of the sales transaction, including but not limited to, the offer of sale, negotiations, the agreement to sell, the transfer of consideration, or the transfer of the firearm.

This means that if I meet you on the sidewalk, and offer to sell a gun, and then we go to my home to exchange the money and firearm, the waiting period would apply, as the sidewalk is property to which the public has a right of access.

nalioth
December 25, 2008, 09:15 AM
It was actually an FFL so I assume he is right but I just want to see it in writing somewhere FFL holders don't know any more than they have to. This is sometimes less than you know.

If you want to amuse yourself, there are several threads here with ridiculous made up laws "passed" by the local gun shop.

treeman
December 25, 2008, 03:51 PM
Thanks for the replies but I am still confused!! :( Divemedic...soo if the transaction takes place in Miami Dade at a GUN STORE what is the wating period for long guns AND what is the waiting period for hand guns?

Thanks again!!!

Oh and Merry Christmas all!!!!

divemedic
December 25, 2008, 09:16 PM
For a long gun, there should be no waiting period, and a 3 days waiting period for a handgun, but even that wait will not apply to you if: you have a CWP, or can prove you already own a gun. Anything else is either a mistake or misunderstanding of the law on the part of the FFL, or is an unlawful restriction placed there by the locality.

Since Florida has preemption, this is all that is allowed (except the "right of public access discussed above) Note that the Miami-Dade ordnance above exempts LEOs. There is nothing in the state constitution that authorizes that. The Miami-Dade law is plainly unconstitutional in granting that right to LEOs.

treeman
December 25, 2008, 11:32 PM
divemedic, I really appreciate your help with this. I want to be 100% sure I am getting this right because I have a feeling the FFL may not take this the right way and the last thing I want to do is upset someone by telling them they are wrong and then I'm the one who is wrong ;)

"(4) Property to which the public has the right of access means any real or personal property to which the public has a right of access, including property owned by either public or private individuals, firms and entities and expressly includes, but is not limited to, flea markets, gun shows and firearms exhibitions."

Wouldn't a retail store fall under "public access" based on above??


If I understand what you are saying correctly. The only situation where the FIVE DAY wait in Miami Dade would apply is in a "public access" location. And this would apply to hand & long gun ?

A GUN STORE in Miami Dade is NOT a "public access" location so the 3 day handgun and 0 (zero) day long gun wait would apply in the Gun Store?

Also, would the fact that the firearm was ordered from out of state and shipped to this gun store/FFL change anything?

Again, I just want to be 100% sure on this before I proceed to let him know this. ;)

Thanks again!

treeman
December 27, 2008, 11:27 AM
Thanks again all.

I have decided to wait until Monday (which would be the 5 days) to pick up my shotgun. After I pick it up I will give him a print out of Sec. 21-20.14.1 and Sec. 21-20.18 and see why he insists on 5 days at his store.

divemedic
December 29, 2008, 09:50 AM
Then, if he refuses to change his store policy, I would explain to him that my money and my business are going elsewhere.

Of course, if you had a CCW this would bee a moot point.

treeman
December 29, 2008, 10:24 AM
Guys, I am going to point it out to him but I just spoke to THREE other FFL's (that's a total of 4 now) here in Miami Dade and they ALL say 5 business day for all fire arms!!! I don't understand how all these guys could be getting this wrong. :fire:

Does anyone know of an FFL IN Miami Dade FL that actually understands that it's 3 days for handguns and 0 for long guns??? :confused:

Thanks again for all your input guys.

divemedic
December 29, 2008, 12:32 PM
Are they telling you that there is a waiting period even if you have a CCW? A short drive gets you out of Dade county. Point that out, and ask them to show the law which states there is a waiting period.

There isn't one.

treeman
December 29, 2008, 04:30 PM
If I had concealed permit they would give it to me...If not 5 days all firearms.

I guess I will have to take a print out of the info from municode and show it to him to see what he says.

As a Miami Dade resident can I purchase in another county (that is for sure 3 days handgun 0 days long gun) and will that countie's rules apply to me or would Miami Dade rules apply even if I go to another county?

I guess it will be a moot point soon because I plan on taking the concealed weapons permit as soon as I get a chance. But, it just kind of shocks me that these guys are not aware of this point. :uhoh:

divemedic
December 29, 2008, 04:43 PM
If you buy in another county, there is no restriction.

jeff-10
December 30, 2008, 12:36 AM
I've bought long guns in Miami and Broward and had to wait 5 days. Bought one in Seminole and went home with it the same day. That is when I realized the waiting period for long guns is county specific.

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