[Justin]

The following material has been rated EC-10...

http://www.themonitor.com/NewsPub/News/Stories/2003/09/22/10642896312.shtml
_____
By Jennine Zeleznik
Monitor Staff Writer

MERCEDES — Four parents of Science Academy sophomores are determined to protect their children.
From books.
The board of directors for the South Texas Independent School District is expected to decide tonight whether to ban two books — Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World and Robert Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land — from the high school’s 10th grade English Advanced Placement curriculum.
The books, part of the class’ summer reading list, may lead to “inappropriate sexual arousal of young teens,” parent Julie Wilde wrote in her complaint to the district.
“We feel this is inappropriate for the ages of the students at (the) Science Academy or at any South Texas ISD High School,” she continued in her letter, specifically citing Brave New World. “This is pornographic literature and we do not feel it has a place in any school funded by taxpayer dollars.”
Under school district policies, parents have the right to object to their children’s reading materials, and to obtain alternatives to those materials.
However, “A parent’s ability to exercise control over reading, listening, or viewing matter extends only to his or her own children,” the policies state under the section Guiding Principles. “When instructional resources are challenged, the principles of the freedom to read, listen, and view must be defended as well.”
As part of the district’s grievance process, the Science Academy’s principal first addressed the complaint. He formed a committee to reassess the materials — all of which have been in use for at least a decade at the district.
The committee found that the books help to develop SAT vocabulary and Advanced Placement analytical skills for students who attend the eighth-best high school in the nation, according to Newsweek magazine.
“This book enriches and supports the curriculum and presents various sides of controversial issues so that students have an opportunity to develop, under guidance, skills in critical analysis and in making informed judgments in their daily lives,” the committee of five wrote in the June report.
Each of the titles has received praise from teachers, professors and critics alike. Stranger in a Strange Land — which Wilde said she did not read — is a 1962 Hugo Award winner about a boy raised by Martians who returned to Earth as a true innocent without knowledge of sex or religion, and is viewed by many as a science fiction masterpiece. Brave New World has been called one of the most brilliant satires written in English, about a dystopia where babies are born in laboratories, people pop “happy” pills like candy and sex is a casual act.
“The references to sexual behavior which the complainants cited as leading to sexual arousal are non-explicit attempts by the author to engage the reader in critical thought about human values and societal codes of conduct,” the committee wrote in its report on Stranger in a Strange Land. “The book addresses sexuality and portrays groups with radically different approaches to sexuality than that generally accepted as our societal norm. The book does not promote these lifestyles as desirable. The book does not give graphic descriptions of sexual acts.”
It is important to view language and sexual situations in the books in context, wrote Charles Suhor, field representative for the National Council of Teachers of English, in a letter to the board of trustees.
“The ethical and literary value of a work is distorted if one focuses only on particular words, passages, or segments,” he wrote. “An author’s broad moral vision, total treatment of theme, and commitment to realistic portrayal of characters and dialogue are ignored when protesters focus only on aspects that are offensive to them. Unfortunately, there is shock value in isolating and listing selected passages from a book; but this does not reveal anything about the fundamental message or theme in the work, and it does not provide insight into its teachability or its literary quality.”
Neither group of parents could be reached by deadline.
After failing at the high school level, the parents took their grievances to the superintendent, who backed the committee’s decision. Next, the complaint went to the board of trustees. At its August meeting, the board chose to table the item.
It is expected to address it tonight — which, ironically, is right in the middle of Banned Books Week.
“It is not only the right of parents, but their responsibility to be involved in what their kids are reading,” said Beverley Becker, associate director of the American Library Association’s Office for Intellectual Freedom, which sponsors awareness of banned and challenged books.
“But there’s a line that they cross when they ask that in addition to their kid, that nobody else have access to that book. When they go that next step that nobody else can have access, that’s when we come to a problem.”
The American Library Association reports more than 7,000 challenges to books in the last decade — more than 60 percent of them from parents. In 2002, people issued 515 book challenges— though that may be as little as 25 percent of that total number of challenges made, Becker said, because people voluntarily report the challenges to the association.
“It’s an individual decision of what you want to read — it’s not through a majority rules,” Becker said. “If you’re going to be a well-informed citizen and consider different ideas, you need to look at them all and make an educated decision for yourself. Look at the argument from all sides — even the side that you don’t agree with.”
At South Texas ISD, dozens of educators, students, parents and alumni have written the school or spoken before the board of trustees in defense of the books and curriculum.
“In our experiences with school curricula, we have found that there are few instructional materials that do not include something that is offensive to someone,” Suhor, of the National Council of Teachers of English, wrote. “If literary works that are duly selected by English teaching professionals are removed because the works offend particular individuals or groups, there will soon be little or no literature left to teach in our schools.”
____

Well this is double plus ungood.

In related news, Happy Banned Books Week! (http://www.ala.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Our_Association/Offices/Intellectual_Freedom3/Banned_Books_Week/Banned_Books_Week.htm)

[tyme]

doubleplusungood unbooks rewrite fullwise.
(edit now that I found the darned book) books huxley heinlein doubleplusungood refs unconcepts rewrite fullwise

Darwin must be sleeping on the job.

[Brian Dale]

The books, part of the class’ summer reading list, may lead to “inappropriate sexual arousal of young teens,” parent Julie Wilde wrote in her complaint to the district..."We feel this is inappropriate for the ages of the students" etc.
Mrs. Wilde, books, flowers, rocks, trees, birds, air, water and sunlight all lead to “inappropriate sexual arousal" of MOST teens. They're teenagers. Enjoy being a parent.

And you said that you hadn't read Stranger in a Strange Land.
Check it out, at the Public Library.
Go home.
Read it.
Think.
Go back and get more Heinlein books.
Read them.
Think.
Then think some more, and realize that this is what you want your children to be doing: thinking critically, about real life and the way people behave.

Good for the Principal, the committee, the Superintendent and the Board of Trustees.
May they always keep their clothes and their weapons where they can find them in the dark.

[KC]

Parents, schools boards, and the power of stupid people in large numbers.

And why? They're doing it for the children.

Kinda surprised that Bradbury's Farhenit 451 wasn't in the batch of badthought...maybe they forgot it in the rush.

[Kharn]

Could I get a show of hands of those that have read Stranger in a Strange Land?

I read it in 11th grade (did a research paper on it, because there wasnt enough literary criticism of Starship Troopers to do the research project on that book), and *damn* that book was a mind blower. (Heinlein wrote it with the intent of causing the reader to question Christian beliefs, and he did a good job of it)

I can totally understand why parents wouldnt want their kids to be required to read that book (I cant comment on Brave New World, havent read that yet). The other Heinlein books I have read would be good for teens, but Stranger would be just a little too far out there for some kids to handle.

That said, I dont support anyone that wants to have the book removed from the library. There's a difference between required reading, and what is available for voluntary reading.

Kharn

[GSB]

Could I get a show of hands of those that have read Stranger in a Strange Land?

I did (assigned to me in soph. year at a Catholic High School), and I didn't find it nearly as "inappropriately arousing" as the copies of Playboy and Penthouse that no one seemed to have trouble getting their hands on. :D

[Kharn]

GSB:
Its not the sexual content that bothered me (but its what those parents are going off), it was the question-everything attitude of the book. Some kids arent ready to handle it at ~10th grade (and some will never be).

Kharn

[Sean Smith]

The books, part of the class’ summer reading list, may lead to “inappropriate sexual arousal of young teens,” parent Julie Wilde wrote in her complaint to the district.

Um, that's a side effect of breathing at that age. At least, it was for me. And if they are lucky, they won't get over it. :D

“This is pornographic literature and we do not feel it has a place in any school funded by taxpayer dollars.”

But on second thought, I think we need to support Wilde. She obviously has some kind of metahuman super-powers, since she is able to determine that a book is "pornographic" without actually reading it. That would have to be quite stressful... kind of like how Spider-Man's "Spider Sense" is always getting him into trouble.

:evil:

[Brett Bellmore]

I've read it. Can't say that it's the first Heinlein that would come to mind to assign to a bunch of teens, (He did write books specifically aimed at teens, after all!) but it's not THAT bad.

It's not like it's Shea and Wilson's Iluminatus trilogy. :what:

[Joe Demko]

Brave New World is a masterpiece. I've tried three of four times to get through Stranger in a Strange Land but never made it. It alternately bores and irritates me 'til I toss it aside.

To get back on topic, people who try to ban books generally deserve a flogging.

[Art Eatman]

Kharn, Heinlein advocates questioning, but he doesn't advocate disagreeing with the answers...

"Questioning authority" should be inculcated much earlier than 10th grade. It would be far better than training kids to be unquestioning sponges for whatever ideas are tossed out at them.

Questioning isn't the same thing as denial.

Art

[Master Blaster]

Stopping teenage boys from being arroused, HMMMM

I dont think there going to have much success there, perhaps they should blind them with a hot poker, that way they wont be able to SEE the teenage girls at school, castration would also work.

I think these folks have some issues of their own.

If you read the bible there are stories of lust and arousal in there as well.

Perhaps we should ban them from reading the bible too.

Sounds like time for a book burnin party in the town square.

I read both these books in 8th grade, in fact I read every science fiction book in the junior high library.

I can say that neither of these science fiction classics had an especially arousing effect on me, all the boys in the neigborhood had playboy and real teenage girls to provide that stimulation.

:D

[Skunkabilly]

What about Toni Morrison? I must have read half her books as required by assigned reading in high school. Some of the stuff in there was...graphic. :barf:

[Kharn]

Art:
"Questioning authority" should be inculcated much earlier than 10th grade. It would be far better than training kids to be unquestioning sponges for whatever ideas are tossed out at them.
True, but I think there's better Heinlein books out there than Stranger for teens. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress would be a better choice, in my opinion.

Kharn

[Brian Dale]

Sure, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is better to read first, but we'd all read our parents' copies of that while we were still in late grade school or junior high. Hadn't we all? ;)

[2dogs]

Is there anyone out there who seriously thinks that this will not be a better country when all guns, books and cigarette smoking is banned.:rolleyes:

I fear that these people are not worried about "the children" thinking about sex, but rather thinking at all.:uhoh:

[pax]

...), it was the question-everything attitude of the book. Some kids arent ready to handle it at ~10th grade (and some will never be).
One of the bajillion reasons we're homeschoolers is so that we can teach our kids to question everything from the earliest possible ages.

Schools do a lousy job at that.

Sure, they provide an occasional "controversial" book to cram down the kids' throats, but this is accompanied by weeks of endless PC whining about the right and wrong ways to think about such books.

I prefer to just shove books, any books and all books, at my kids as fast as they'll absorb them, and follow the kids' lead in talking about them afterward. Amazingly, kids are able to come up with opinions of their very own this way, and don't have to simply regurgitate the PC line in order to keep the respect of their peers.

Once they have their very own opinions, it's not hard to discuss the reasons for those opinions, or to ask them nicely pointed questions to get them to think a bit harder and dig a bit deeper.

But if you start the whole process by announcing, "Some people won't like this book because ..." you've tampered with the ideal process.

pax

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

[pax]

Sure, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is better to read first, but we'd all read our parents' copies of that while we were still in late grade school or junior high. Hadn't we all?
Parents' copies? Parents' copies???

You jest. My folks, when they could spare time to notice what I was reading that day, would say something sneering about bug-eyed-monsters and leave it at that.

I had to find my own sf books, thankyouverymuch. (Err, and I think I read all the current Heinlein books before I was in 6th grade. But it wasn't my parents' fault!)

pax

When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything -- you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. -- Robert Heinlein

[AJ Dual]

LOL the more things change, the more they stay the same. Like anything they could read would make a teenager more horny than they allready are.

I remember my 5th grade teacher being concerned that I was reading Animal Farm, and talking to my parents about it.

That didn't get very far.

I think that the first time I read Stranger In a Strange land, I was probably eleven in sixth grade. Any kid who's old enough to actually read that book for fun is more than intelligent enough to handle the concepts in a non-purient fashion.

:rolleyes:

[cordex]

Could I get a show of hands of those that have read Stranger in a Strange Land?
*raises both hands*
Sure, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is better to read first, but we'd all read our parents' copies of that while we were still in late grade school or junior high. Hadn't we all?
I read my dad's copy of Stranger when I was a wee lad, but had to buy the rest of my Heinlein collection (I was hooked the first time I read SiaSL).

Advance orders for For Us the Living are available. From what I hear, that'll get banned just as quick.

[rock jock]

Well, it sounds like the libertarian approach would be to offer an alternative list of books to these particular children.

[Mute]

Why is it that these people think that they need to protect their kids by dictating what everyone else's kid must do? Idiots! These people would have an embolism if the students were reading Henry Miller.

[Brian Dale]

What have you heard about For Us the Living ? Yours is the first reference I've seen to this upcoming Heinlein book (there's a two-sentence review at the B & N web page). It looks like a Jan., 2004 release date. Links include:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074325998X/103-4740269-8863041?v=glance
($17.50)

Borders is apparently joined with Amazon now.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2WVP50UY1Z&isbn=074325998X&itm=1
($20.00)

What's the consensus (if there is one) on Amazon, B & N and other bookstores? Any strongly pro- or anti-2nd stores? This is not a hijack attempt; if it's irrelevant to the thread, please ignore it or PM me. I'll delete this Q if someone requests that I do so.

[cordex]

What have you heard about For Us the Living? Yours is the first reference I've seen to this upcoming Heinlein book (there's a two-sentence review at the B & N web page). It looks like a Jan., 2004 release date.
What I've heard and what I can verify are two different things.
I've heard:
It is more "profane" (read that as you will ... ) than his other books.
It was his first, or one of his first novels
No one would publish it the first time around because it was too "objectionable". Again, read that as you will.
While not his best book, it is supposed to rate up there.
He destroyed several of his copies of the manuscript, but one was found in a box of stuff that had changed hands several times which has led some to question the authenticity, but I think Virginia says it is real.

Unfortunately, no one will loan me the manuscript to read, so I've got to wait with everyone else.

[longeyes]

They should add 1984, where "sexual arousal" is suppressed
via State-supplied drugs.:D

[Quartus]

I see some of you are assuming that since she 'didn't read it' that she didn't read ANY of it.


Uh, folks? It doesn't take psychic power to read portions of a book and know what is in those portions.

Duh.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If a 10th grader can't handle the "question everything" position of Stranger, how is he/she gonna make it through college? At least Heinlein's books are fiction, fantasy, not real. Out in the real world, expecially on campus, the "question everything" midset is very, very real. Better to learn how to handle it in book form early on, than to be unprepared for the real thing.

Besides, if a kid can't handle things like Stranger or Brave New World, shouldn't that be considered a deficiency that needs to be addressed? How better to learn to cope with such "deviant" material than to increase your exposure to it??

There are plenty of good books out there, and most of 'em are worthwhile precisely because they contain "questionable" or "inappropriate" material. I read many such books as a kid, and I'm better off for it. Perhaps what these kids need is more exposure to this kind of material, not less.

Which Heinlein book is it that portrays Mama Maureen loosing her virginity at the ripe old age of 14? Maybe we oughta be sending that one to the 10th graders as well...

- Roland

[DigitalWarrior]

I know I walk on treachorous ground here but...

If you don't want your kids to do something, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to read Stranger in a Strange Land, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to see other lifestyles, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to learn evolution, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to believe guns are evil, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to be capitalists, tell them not to.

LEAVE MY KIDS OUT OF IT!!!

[DigitalWarrior]

Probably "To Sail Beyond the Sunset". Incest all over his Lazarus Long books.

You do have to admit Heinlen was a freakin perv.

He said some really cool things, but damn...

[cordex]

You do have to admit Heinlen was a freakin perv.
And likely a cannibal at that, right? :)
And Clancy is a communist and terrorist, right?

I think some of you missed the point. He went out of his way to question taboo. Rather than tell his characters to blindly accept everything that was verboten simply because it was verboten, he'd have them explore the reasoning behind it and would throw in wild "what if?" scenarios to question if you are applying logic or just kicking in with your cultural programming.

I still use plenty of programming ...

[gunsmith]

But a good read,I wish I had read it when I was younger.
I read it 2yrs ago and enjoyed most of it,but the sex stuff is kinda
dated...
I like Heinliens other books alot more.
I can grok where those parents are coming from with siasl
the book does encourage sex stuff the parents may be uncomfortable
with. they could just have their kids read something else.
But BNW should be required reading in every high school.
It does not promote taking "happy pills" etc
just like farenhiet 451 does not promote burning books.

How does this relate to guns?

[rock jock]

I'm surprised no one has replied to my suggestion.

[Nestor]

As much as I like RAH (well the 1st half of his works ), I can say it is nice to see some parents at least a little involved in there school system.


As for SISL it is a marker book for me, any thing that RAH wrote before it I will probably like, most of what followed it I just about will not read.

RAH & L.Ron both went a little wacky later in there litary careers(sp) L.Ron
decied He was a god and RAH figured that there wasn't one.

I am persuaded that BOTH are wrong...

[cordex]

I'm surprised no one has replied to my suggestion.
Sure. I see no problem allowing the kids' parents to request that their children read from an alternate list.

*waits*

[Deepdiver]

The books, part of the class’ summer reading list, may lead to “inappropriate sexual arousal of young teens,” parent Julie Wilde wrote in her complaint to the district.


..let me make sure I understand this. The idea is to keep these teenagers in sound proofed rooms with no external stimuli until they are 18.

Then we send them off to college where there is NO SUPERVISION as to what they watch, read, drink, smoke, think, do, etc.....and they

Go Freakin' WILD!!!!


makes good sense to me :banghead: !!!

[Marko Kloos]

I fully support the efforts of the pea-brained book-banning crowd.

There's no better guarantee that the books in question will actually be read by teenagers than to put them on a "banned" list.

[JeanC]

Someone asked about Toni Morrison, yes she does get banned. Anyone interested, here is the link to the 100 most frequently challenged books from 1990-2000:

http://www.ala.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Our_Association/Offices/Intellectual_Freedom3/Banned_Books_Week/Related_Links7/100_Most_Frequently_Challenged_Books_of_1990-2000.htm

[jimpeel]

http://www.ala.org/Images/OIF/28-1124a.gif
Attribution (http://www.ala.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Our_Association/Offices/Intellectual_Freedom3/Banned_Books_Week/Book_Burning/20th_Century/Nazi_Germany/Nazi_Germany.htm)
http://www.ushmm.org/photos/68/68984.jpghttp://www.ushmm.org/photos/01/01622.jpg
Attribution (http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_query/photos?page_len=25&noframes=x&max_docs=1000&query1=book+burning&query=kw110928)

[rock jock]

I admit that I have never read Heinlein. But, based on the posters on this board, he openly promotes an agnostic/atheistic worldview in his books, yes? So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?

[Justin]

So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right? In a word?

Yes.

[rock jock]

Hmm. Somehow I doubt that.

[Carlos]

Unbelievable. Women didn't even read the book and wants it banned anyway. She must be really really special.

This stuff really makes Carlos mad. :banghead: PC is going to be the death of me. :cuss:

Think I'll go to the library after work and pick up a Heinlein I haven't read yet. One favorite was Number of the Beast. Read SIASL over a decade ago.

[pax]

Rock_Jock,

As a Christian, I find few things more repugnant or inexplicable than the refusal of most of my fellow Christians to follow the Golden Rule in their dealings with other people's children.

That is, I find it offensive if someone wants to indoctrinate my children with beliefs I do not hold, and I find no reason whatsoever to condone fellow Christians in their attempts to indoctrinate other people's children with beliefs their parents do not hold.

That's one of the many, many reasons my family has withdrawn from the public school system: we simply could no longer stomach the coersive nature of that system. The whole thing is just wrong.

Neither the atheists, nor the agnostics, nor the Christians, Jews, Muslims or Wiccans should be able to force everyone else's children to accept their worldview. Since the system no longer teaches all the worldviews (if indeed it ever did) -- where does that leave us?

I can't stop my fellow Christians from forcing their worldview down everyone else's throats. But I can and I have disassociated my own family from the system rather than joining that very ugly bandwagon.

pax

A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mold in which casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency over the body. ... All attempts by the State to bias the conclusions of its citizens on disputed subjects are evil. -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)

[cordex]

I admit that I have never read Heinlein. But, based on the posters on this board, he openly promotes an agnostic/atheistic worldview in his books, yes?In some of them he tends to, you betcha. In others, he's silent or subdued on the subject.
In SiaSL, he gets his digs in for quite a few religions, and defends aspects of the same in the next breath.
So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?Absolutely. No question about it.

And as I said before, I'd have no problem with providing an alternate list for the children of those who are easily offended, and those who look for ways they can be offended - as you suggested might be the "libertarian approach".

But this ban wasn't about a given religious or atheist author. It was about the presence of "arousing" material in a few books.

[jimpeel]

So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?I am vehemently anti-Communist but I would be incensed if there were a movement afoot to ban Mao's Little Red Book or Marx's Communist Manifesto. Look at the pictures I posted and tell me that it would be right to do that with ANY book regardless of stripe.

So your wry comment Hmm. Somehow I doubt that. may apply to some; but the fact that this comment was made only eight minutes after your interrogatory casts doubt on the veracity of your desire for an answer. Regardless, you have mine.

[Don Galt]

This is why we need to privatise the schools. Get the state out of it... not only would we get better education for our kids (Even the poorest ones) for less money... but the christians could have their own schools and teach thier kids what they want, and everyone else could have their own schools and teach their kids what THEY want.

Time to stop this BS tug of war over kids, trying to force schools to indoctrinate everyone's kids based on the christian faith.

And if we did this, EVERY kid would get a better education, as schools would be judged on quality for price, instead of being funded more when they do poorly, as they are now.

[sm]

A lot of the books I read in school have already made the banned list. We read Huck Finn, Catcher In The Rye, Utopia, 1984, Animal Farm...

I took my nephew a few years ago to a Children's Theatre to see Huck Finn , he then wondered why it was not on his school reading list. Whew, I explained, then I gave him Animal Farm , he took it to school...asked not to bring back to school. This Uncle asked his teacher if she had read these and others...nope because they were banned in her school,and therefore must not be good for developing thinking.

I gave her copies and suggested SHE determine for herself by thinking --not determine based on what a GROUP determines. Nephew has a better relationship with this teacher...even years later, she thanked me and actually has changed her outlook on gummit and meddlin'.

Beside's I read this stuff and turned out allright :p

[sw442642]

Attention to TX parents, your teenage boys are masturbating to the cover of Cosmo and Shape magazine - now on sale at the Supermarket. They see breasts on the Internet.

Ban it all!!

Just another set of Americans who would happily join a Christian version of the Taliban.

[Futo Inu]

No, longeyes, here in the bible belt, they'd love that idea in 1984 - they'd hope it would catch on. :barf:

sw, I'm sure that every 16 year old has at least a couple of friends whose parents don't have a filter on the home computer - kids these days don't need Glamour and National Geographic like we did. :)

[Not gun-related, IMO, FWIW.]

[Quartus]

Women didn't even read the book and wants it banned anyway. She must be really really special.



Just for you, Carlos - a reprise of an earlier post:

I see some of you are assuming that since she 'didn't read it' that she didn't read ANY of it.


Uh, folks? It doesn't take psychic power to read portions of a book and know what is in those portions.



Does Carlos get the point?






quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a word?

Yes.



Well, get incensed then - it's being done all over this country.





I'm still trying to figure out why Huck Finn was banned in some places. ???

[Nestor]

Boy, I really like the open mindeness granted by some members here for the parents who would like to speak to their EMPLOYEES about the subject matter being used.

As for the Books I have read both, and In high school by the way.

[Master Blaster]

Huck Finn was banned because it uses the N word

as in Ni***r Jim, who was a black slave, and that N word is only allowed in rap songs these days.

In addition it has racial stereotypes of black people, like Jim who happened to be Hucks best friend in the book.

[pax]

I'm still trying to figure out why Huck Finn was banned in some places. ???
The usual charge is that it's racist. After all, it frequently uses the N word, and it does accurately portray southern racism during that time in our country. And of course, because Twain was so sarcastic, there's plenty of ammunition to support the idea that the idea behind the book was to support racism, and not to tear it down. Anyone who's even vaguely familiar with irony as a literary form can see the fallacy of calling that book (of all books!) "racist," and yet, the fuel is there for the humor impaired and the windmill-tilting fools to use if they wish.

pax

Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education. -- Alfred Whitney

[cordex]

Boy, I really like the open mindeness granted by some members here for the parents who would like to speak to their EMPLOYEES about the subject matter being used.
The problem wasn't that they didn't want their own children to read the book. The problem is that they didn't want anyone's children to read the book in class. At that point they stop being a concerned parent and become an objectionable control-freak.

From the article:
Under school district policies, parents have the right to object to their children’s reading materials, and to obtain alternatives to those materials.
So ... if they don't want their kids to read 'em, they can already select from a list of alternates.

[sm]

Well maybe I'm wierd, but here goes...

I am of the belief that parents should educate , and be involved in the education of children. I also believe children have rights too, I don't recall the Constitution stating one has to reach a certain age before one's rights kick in. I was raised where I could go to my parents to seek answers to questions, regardless of the subject. This extended to immediate family (uncles for example) and some "elders" ( preacher, adult friends of the family, church members, neighbors). My parents and these other persons had /shared what and the how the way my parents wanted me raised (sibs too).

Telling a kid "don't" is a sure way to get a kid to "do". I was encouraged to read, ask questions. I could even do this with teachers,and this was a time with a war going on, assassinations, and racial tensions. Controversial books and topics were discussed and brought out in the open. Kids are gonna seek and wonder,why not be responsible and educate them,instead of a "stranger" educating them.

No, I haven't sired any kids of my own. I did raise 3 sibs. I did have a stepson many years ago. His mom and I were in accordance with this. Any time my sibs or stepson had a question about anything they read or were curious about, I answered. I feel perhaps sometimes some questions may be better answered by a certain gender, then again I never ( or when married) we never put a "wall" up.

Best example : my wife was a nurse, when her son and neice had questions about guns, sex, condoms and tampax we sat them down. I gave the gun safety lesson and answered questions. My wife used a bananna to give the condom demonstration, I used a cantaloupe I anatomatically altered to give the tampax demonstration. The kids sat side by side ( not sequestered like in gym class). We wanted to show and demonstrate it is the responsible parent/adult that teaches. In the real world they would encounter these questions. We felt by doing this, this way, was best. Better than schoolyard scuttlebutt, mis-information, embarrassement later in real life...or getting into trouble. Yep they got a bit red-faced, but you know these kids knew anytime they needed a questions answered they could come to us.

They read "banned books" , questions asked and answered, honest and at a level of their understanding.I/ We encouraged this.

Of course SIL did get real red when daughter came home with condoms...explained to her mom how they worked. *g*

[Edward429451]

Could I get a show of hands of those that have read Stranger in a Strange Land?

Read it probably 10 times. IIRC, I skipped school to finish it. Great book. Heinlein wasn't a perv, he was a thinking man with eccentric writing style. What it takes to sell books. He had the cajones to write about 'what you're not supposed to talk about'. I'm not sure if there's a Heinlein book that I haven't read. I didn't turn out to be a perv and did turn out to (gasp) believe in God. <shrug>

He sure did love cats though. I'm still lookin for the door into summer...

Another cool quote from Heinlein:

"Luck is how the mediocre account for accomplishments of genius."

RAH (Puppetmasters)

[El Tejon]

The Texiban on a rampage!:D

Religion, or the lockstep versions thereof, sure beats thinking.:rolleyes:

I take a strong stand against sex and violence in books. That's why the Bible is banned at my house.:p

[Dex Sinister]

So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?

Absolutely. The idea is to let people make up their own minds.

Dex }:>=-

[Dex Sinister]

Futo Inu said: No, longeyes, here in the bible belt, they'd love that idea in 1984 - they'd hope it would catch on.

You're looking at it wrong: We should hope it would catch on, so the ninnies would wall themselves up inside nice safe cities, and leave the rest of the world to us evil unpredictable sorts with guns!

Dex }:>=-

[Marko Kloos]

If you believe your particular philosophy to be true, whether that is atheism, Christianity, Liberalism, or what have you...then you ought to be certain that the truth can survive in the marketplace of ideas. Banning books, *any* book, just shows that you feel insecure about the validity of your own doctrine or philosophy.

That's why the Christian Bible will be freely available in my house for my children to read. along with the Jewish Talmud, the Koran, and the writings of Robert Heinlein, Mark Twain, C.S.Lewis, George Orwell, Charles Darwin, and everybody else whose ideas they want to know. It's the only way to have them develop their own minds, instead of indoctrinating them.

If I gave them nothing but Heinlein and Ayn Rand to read, I'd be just as selective and indoctrinating as someone who makes their kids read nothing but the Bible and prohibits Harry Potter books in their house. You don't raise healthy minds with indoctrination of any kind.

[nemesis]

Hey! I live here!

This is the issue. The School Board has a policy to notify parents of the intended material and to allow them an alternate choice for their children if they find the principal choice unsuitable.

The issue is this. The School Board did not honor its own policy and did not notify the parents of the chosen material. That led to increased attention to the whole event and it took off from there.

Do you GROK?

[Brian Dale]

What am I missing?
As part of the district’s grievance process, the Science Academy’s principal first addressed the complaint. He formed a committee to reassess the materials — all of which have been in use for at least a decade at the district.
They've been reading these books in that District for at least ten years. Separate, individual notifications to all parents of each and every book in the curriculum is not how they did things when I was in school, and my parents certainly knew what I was reading. They asked me, and they read the course syllabi and reading lists that were made public.

Would engraved letters to parents have been better? On handmade paper, perhaps? A personal visit by the principal? What is required?

[pax]

Marko,

Well said.

pax

The true aim of everyone who aspires to be a teacher should be, not to impart his own opinion, but to kindle minds. -- Frederick W. Robertson

[Orthonym]

I recall reading that RAH was HORRIFIED that that Manson critter named one of his bastards Valentine Michael Smith. "It's just entertainment, folks!"
The Tate-LaBianca murders also got the old gent to clean and load his piece for the first time in years.

[Nestor]

You who have disagreed with me are right, I apologize we poor Texas Subjects should just butt out of the Educational system and let the Upright and proper Texas Teacher Union and other brighter lights of academe run our little schools. <sarcasm off>.

[cordex]

Hey Nestor ... instead of resorting to pedantic sarcasm, why not address the points of those that disagreed with you?

You say that this is just a case of parents getting involved in the school system. I say that this goes beyond that because the parents are not trying to decide what their own children should read, but what everyone else's children should read. As it stands now (and has for some time according to the article) parents can control what books their children are subjected to. How is the system improved by denying that same ability to other parents by banning some of the books on the list?

[Nestor]

Yes cordex I am saying the they have the right and privliage to make an attempt to change what they belive to be a bad decission on the part of the school, and as many on the thread have pointed out the could have chosen an alternate book, by the same token if SIASL was removed completly the parents could still let there kid read it.

I have been trying to maintin the position that it is not if the book is removed or not but that the comments made that to me seem to say that we sould not have the right to effect the dicission of the school board.

[Quartus]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm still trying to figure out why Huck Finn was banned in some places. ???
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The usual charge is that it's racist.


That's the CURRENT reason. (Which only shows the STUPIDITY of the race-mongers.)

But Huck was getting banned loong before some idiot decided that showing how bad slavery was is racist.

[cordex]

Yes cordex I am saying the they have the right and privliage to make an attempt to change what they belive to be a bad decission on the part of the school, and as many on the thread have pointed out the could have chosen an alternate book, by the same token if SIASL was removed completly the parents could still let there kid read it.
If there were an issue of parents not being able to request alternate material for that which they found offensive, I'd agree. As it is, there was no problem to begin with.