Carrying a 1911 without the safety on?


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CPshooter
December 25, 2008, 05:18 AM
I've recently stepped into the world of 1911s, and with the purchase of an ultra carry II I am now going to be carrying one exclusively in place of my other guns. Carrying with a safety on is very comforting as far as accidental discharges go, but some will argue that a manual safety is a bad thing when crap hits the fan. I don't know how I feel yet, since I'm still transitioning into the 1911 platform. Then I started thinking, why is the manual safety even necessary?

On a Glock (which I currently carry), if something pulls the trigger intentionally or even unintentionally, it will go boom without a doubt. A 1911 on the other hand won't go off unless you have the grip safety depressed. Why is the Springfield XD considered safe for carry with no manual safety and the 1911 isn't?

Obviously 1911s have a shorter trigger pull being single-action and all, but doesn't the grip safety add a significant safety element to the design?

Also, I realize that IF this was to be done, extreme caution would need to be taken when reholstering the gun.

What do you guys think? (Sorry if this has been covered before, but hey, bandwidth isn't a real concern these days anyhow:))

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denfoote
December 25, 2008, 05:27 AM
You aren't insane are you??
Cocked and Locked is the way the 1911 was designed to be carried!! :what:

Kind of Blued
December 25, 2008, 05:36 AM
The XD has a 5.5-7.7 lb. trigger pull. I believe it also requires more trigger travel for a discharge.

Absolutely do NOT carry a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged. Figure out the internals of the gun if you want a well-substantiated reason.

Disengaging the thumb safety during the draw is (to me) extremely "natural" feeling. I've never failed to disengage it during a draw. That being said, I went through 500 rounds drawing while disengaging the safety, shooting a pair, and reholstering after re-engaging the safety.

I'm sure you'll be able to get used to it, likely even to the point where you "swipe" your Glock when you draw should you practice with the 1911 enough. You might not even notice that you're doing it though.

If you can't get used to dis-engaging the thumb safety, go back to the Glock, or something else. It's that important in my opinion.

RON in PA
December 25, 2008, 06:54 AM
Actually the 1911 was carried by the military with an empty chamber, condition 3.

notorious
December 25, 2008, 07:27 AM
Yep, military carries it condition 3 but the police do it in cocked and locked fashion.

I wouldn't try it unlocked, but that's just me.

AirForceShooter
December 25, 2008, 08:35 AM
I've carried my 1911 for over 40 years in condition Zero.
It's just like a Glock.
Maybe even better. There are still 2 safety's. The grip and the trigger.

In 1960 try finding an ambi safety. It's what I started witH and just stayed with.

I've never considered it unsafe.

AFS

1911Tuner
December 25, 2008, 08:54 AM
JMB just spun!

Cocked and Locked is the way the 1911 was designed to be carried!!

Myth. Browning designed the gun to give the user a choice in the mode of carry. According to military doctrine, Cocked and locked was doable "When action is iminent."

The thumb safety wasn't even part of Browning's original prototype. It was added on request from the US cavalry just prior to the final design that went on to beat Savage's offering in a 6,000 round torture test.

Here's a picture of the 1910 model that was examined by the Army Ordnance Board before the thumb safety was added.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/1910.gif

Old Fuff
December 25, 2008, 10:34 AM
Also for the record, all of Browning's .38 pistols that preceeded the 1911, and well as all of the prototype .45's made from 1904 to 1910, and the Colt commercial model 1905 .45 pistol - didn't have manual safties - nor did they have grip safties. :eek:

He didn't think they were necessary on a pistol that had an external hammer, but the Army did.

From 1900 to after World War Two the common practice was to carry the Colt pistols (and most others) with the chamber empty and magazine loaded, or in the case of the 1911, with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Cocked & locked carry didn't become popular until Jeff Cooper came along during the middle-late 1970's.

These days, when cocked & locked carry is considered the only way to go, the safety lock/manual safety should be "on". There is plenty of time to push it off between the time the pistol is drawn, and when it it presented and pointed. The Old Fuff is aware that some people carry the piece with the manual safety off, but I don't think that they pick up any speed in getting the shot off, and they do take an unnecessary risk.

Treo
December 25, 2008, 10:43 AM
The thumb safety wasn't even part of Browning's original prototype. It was added on request from the US cavalry just prior to the final design

Which makes sense considering they were carrying it on the back of a half wild horse.

My two cents to the thread, I personally don't carry my 1911 anymore in favor of a CZ75B in DA mode. I chose the Z ( or more accurately the mode I carry it in) because I don't trust myself to remember to swipe the safety ( If you do that's fine, I don't and I'm not going to bet my life on the difference) I would never consider carrying any weapon in SA with the safety disengaged, that only has to go wrong one time.

My vote is W/ the guy that said either train yourself until you're confident W/the safety on the 1911 or go back to your GLOCK.

Dr_2_B
December 25, 2008, 10:51 AM
AFShooter, I'm actually shocked. Do you really carry it chamber loaded and without safety engaged? Scares me to death to think of it. I haven't ccw'd my 1911 because it has an ambi safety and I know that could be disengaged inadvertently. Do you know anyone else who does this? What make do you carry?

FoMoGo
December 25, 2008, 10:53 AM
It isnt hard to train yourself to wipe the safety on the draw.
Unload it, check to see that its unloaded... check again... look in the chamber... make sure the Mag is out... then practice your draw.
Some wipe the safety on the draw, some wipe it on presentation.
I honestly have to make a conscious effort to NOT wipe the safety when pulling the pistol from the holster.
It becomes muscle memory and an automatic part of the draw.


Jim

FoMoGo
December 25, 2008, 10:57 AM
I haven't ccw'd my 1911 because it has an ambi safety and I know that could be disengaged inadvertently.
Mine has the ambi safety also... and it is going away for a left side safety, due to the ease of accidentally disengaging it.
However, I carry in a retention holster that covers the trigger... so it doesnt bother me THAT much.
I would just rather be the one who makes the conscious decision on if the safety is on or not.
A 1911 in condition zero, cocked and unlocked, is like a glock with a lighter trigger.
I know it is not going to go off on its own, and I stay off the trigger till I am on target.


Jim

Geno
December 25, 2008, 10:59 AM
Sitting here, just returned from the gas station. I carried my Colt Commander .45 ACP, loaded, chambered, and the manual safety off. I carried my Glock 26 on my ankle as a back-up. So, which was more "safe"? Neither, it's the same, and both perfectly safe. I've never had an accident with any pistol, because I understand that fingers-off-triggers is the not only the best safety, it is the only true safety.

possum
December 25, 2008, 12:39 PM
if you don't feel comfortable with the safety on the 1911, you need to train on that weapon system. I own a 1911, but i don't carry it, if i was to transition to the 1911, i would do alot of extensive training with it, to get to where knocking the saftey off is second nature and natural like it is on my ar when i shoot it.

PO2Hammer
December 25, 2008, 01:06 PM
i would do alot of extensive training with it, to get to where knocking the saftey off is second nature

+1

Personaly, I think you're trying to yank our chains, I can't believe you would actually re-holster a 1911 with the safety off on purpose.

1911Tuner
December 25, 2008, 01:32 PM
I don't trust myself to remember to swipe the safety

Repetition is the key. You do it until it becomes an autoresponse to placing your hand on the butt of the gun. I find that my thumb goes through the motions even when I'm handling a revolver...and if I unholster a 1911 to clear it, I have to make a conscious effort not to wipe it off until the gun is pointed in a completely safe direction and the magazine removed.

As far as being safe in Condition Zero...The trigger is still blocked by the grip safety, so as long as the gun is holstered and your hand clear of it...it should be okay. As Treo noted...it was added in order to enable the mounted cavalryman to place the gun on-safe and reholster when on the back of an unruly or frightened horse. Incidentally, that's also why a slide-locking safety was required. It kept the slide from pushed out of battery during reholstering...and possibly not returning to battery under dusty or muddy field conditions.

I can't believe you would actually re-holster a 1911 with the safety off on purpose.

Like the much-maligned pinch check...it can be safely done if one gets control of the hammer, and remembers to keep the web of the hand clear of the grip safety. In that respect, it's safer than reholstering a Glock...which has no grip safety and no hammer to control. There are many activities which carry potential risk...but that risk can be negated or even neutralized if one is careful, and maintains focus on the task.

MythBuster
December 25, 2008, 01:55 PM
Once you get used to the 1911 system you are no more likely to forget to push the safety off as you are to pull the trigger.

withdrawn34
December 25, 2008, 02:05 PM
The XD has a grip safety, which is why it is considered "safer" than a Glock, despite still not having any external safeties (although some mdoels have thumb safeties).

Both pistols are plenty safe though if you keep your finger out of the trigger. Both still have trigger safeties.

Deanimator
December 25, 2008, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE]Cocked and Locked is the way the 1911 was designed to be carried!! [QUOTE]
Actually, it was designed to be carried cocked and NOT locked. Photos of the early prototypes show no manual safety. With the grip safety, Browning thought it didn't need it. The Army wanted a manual safety and one was added.

Personally, I wouldn't carry an M1911 cocked without the safety on. Personal preference.

Walkalong
December 25, 2008, 02:47 PM
Once you get used to the 1911 system you are no more likely to forget to push the safety off as you are to pull the trigger.Agreed

Personally, I wouldn't carry an M1911 cocked without the safety on. Personal preference.Ditto

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
I don't think the OP said he had a round in the chamber, he might be going around with the hammer back for ease in racking the slide. If he has one in the chamber, with the hammer back, he needs to have the saftey on, for his saftey and the saftey of others around him. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

RogersPrecision
December 25, 2008, 04:08 PM
Carrying a 1911 in Condition Zero is a really, really bad idea.
If anyone would even consider doing this, then obviously the 1911 is the wrong gun for them.
:uhoh:

Dr_2_B
December 25, 2008, 04:10 PM
I don't think the OP said he had a round in the chamber

Orchidhunter, pretty sure based on the context the OP is talking about carrying chamber loaded.

I find it very interesting. I have avoided even carrying cocked and locked because of how easily the thing could discharge - especially with the fear that my ambi safety could be disengaged. My fears are not justified but I've found it hard to overcome them. OTOH, I carry GLOCKs and all my other pistols without any safety engaged. No concern at all.

TAB
December 25, 2008, 04:30 PM
its perfectly safe, but I would not do it.

if your worried about taking the safety off, then a 1911 is not for you.

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:07 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and the others around him, you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:11 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and others around him you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:15 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and others around him you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:17 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and others around him you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:19 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and others around him you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 05:20 PM
matheath, Unfortunately for him and others around him you are probaly right. Merry Xmas, orchidhunter

notorious
December 25, 2008, 06:43 PM
So good you said it 6 times!

I know the 1911 is perfectly safe cocked and unlocked but remember, when holstering, you palm will presumably press on the grip safety and if anything touches that little trigger (like a holster strap) as you push the gun in with a master grip... KABOOM!

basicblur
December 25, 2008, 06:50 PM
So good you said it 6 times!

Jest be happy his keyboard holds only 6 rounds and is not one o' those 30-rounders! :D

notorious
December 25, 2008, 06:57 PM
Jest be happy his keyboard holds only 6 rounds and is not one o' those 30-rounders!

If he lived in my state, he can get up to 10 rounds in his keyboard or more if his keyboard does not have the evil black plastic keyboard features like a detachable key magazine and keyboard grip in the front for the off-hand.

basicblur
December 25, 2008, 07:01 PM
What skeers me is I'm worried that now he's outta rounds, I have disturbing visions of him loading his new 250-round keyboard drum Santa left him.

HE'LL BE BACK! :what:

notorious
December 25, 2008, 07:22 PM
Imagine the hell he can unleash if he fired off full auto all the Qs and Xs at the Scrabble board and get all the quadruple point slots!

1911Tuner
December 25, 2008, 07:28 PM
Personally, I wouldn't carry an M1911 cocked without the safety on.

Nor would I.

notorious
December 25, 2008, 07:29 PM
But I carry my Glock semi-cocked and non-locked all day long!

orchidhunter
December 25, 2008, 07:39 PM
Well how come my post count did not go up? orchidhunter

notorious
December 25, 2008, 09:29 PM
try it again it again it again

jjohnson
December 25, 2008, 09:45 PM
Um, whenever I carried a .45 in the Army I carried it cocked and locked - and I was stationed stateside. :scrutiny:

The sad truth is that my officers weren't 'gun savvy' even though I was in a combat unit. Not once did an officer challenge me over it. I did rack it once when I was issued ammo - and the supply sergeant (in charge of the weapons) just gave me an annoyed look and said "Go do that OUTSIDE, okay?"

I agree with the sentiment that it's not at all difficult to train yourself to wipe the safety on the draw. IMHO if you're going to carry at all, you owe it to yourself and anybody in the vicinity to practice how to draw to the ready SAFELY. If you can't do that, maybe you should be armed with a sharp stick or something:eek:

That's just my two cents.

notorious
December 25, 2008, 09:50 PM
No sharp stick for those who can't arm themselves properly. They might put an eye out or something.

Ben86
December 25, 2008, 10:34 PM
As long as you are using a holster I don't see it being especially dangerous. However if the safety was accidently turned back on would you realize it in a pinch? I think if its there you should use it. As long as you train to turn it off on the draw, make it instinct, there should be no problem. Sit back and enjoy the extra safety for either your ass or your pecker. :)

CPshooter
December 26, 2008, 02:03 AM
Wow, lots of replies here..

Just to clarify, I was talking about carrying it with a round chambered, the gun cocked, but with the manual thumb safety OFF.

I am competent with all of my firearms, and I fully understand what I would be doing here. I was just curious to see what you all thought about it. I see that most of you don't recommend it, but I still can't see why it is any worse than a Glock with no grip safety at all. Some of you see it the same way I do, but most of you still think it's a bad idea.

I know training is the key, and I have no problem training myself to flick the safety off during my draw. I have already practiced this, and it already feels pretty natural. When I own a gun, I always know EXACTLY where all the controls are and how to use them. I own a Glock, an H&K USPc40 (V1), and now a couple 1911s. So as you can tell, I am familiar with several different firing mechanisms.

Training my body and mind to instinctively flick off the safety while drawing it from a holster will not be a problem. The problem is that I don't fully trust myself to do it if I were faced with a real threat, no matter how many times I practice it. Having time to do it is one thing, but let's imagine a little scenario here...

Let's say you are held at gunpoint by someone who looks like they are all messed up on drugs. Imagine you just left an atm and put your wallet away, and find yourself staring down the barrel of his gun. Obviously, you aren't going to draw your gun, pull it out, and challenge him to a duel. He says, "give me your wallet." At this point you are thinking, "This crackhead might shoot me even if I give him my money." So your next thought might be to act as if you are going for your wallet, and pull out your gun instead. Now, in my eyes, just knowing that my gun has a safety on it is going to make me hesitate. I'd probably just give him the wallet at that point and hope he didn't shoot me.

On the other hand, if I knew there was no safety to fumble with, I'd probably have the guts to try and take the guy out before he saw it coming. In other situations (ie: school/mall shooting sprees), you would have plenty of patience and time to flick off the safety before stopping the bad guy from shooting anyone else. But in a scenario like I just described, do you all really have that much confidence in your abilities? Have any of you ever been in dangerous situations or been surprised to the point where you jump and your adrenaline starts pumping? I have, and boy let me tell you how weird it is. You freeze up, you can't hear anything due to your ears feeling like they popped, and you usually just stand there until you figure out what just happened. I don't want to assume I would instinctively flick off the safety in a similar situation. That's if I even remember that I have a gun on me!

I think the people who say, "then go back to your Glock" aren't getting it. First, there are many reasons why people choose one gun over another for concealed carry. A manual safety is just one of many factors to consider when choosing your carry piece. Considering not using the manual safety on a 1911 shouldn't automatically rule out carrying one.

Again, the grip safety on a 1911 is a very good safety mechanism in itself. If I were to holster the gun BEFORE attaching it to my belt, while making sure not to depress the grip safety the whole time, would this not be considered "carefully" holstering the gun?

notorious
December 26, 2008, 02:18 AM
I am not saying nobody should do it, I just won't do it personally.

CPshooter
December 26, 2008, 02:24 AM
Hmm, well I guess it really is up to me after all. I just wanted more opinions before I went ahead and did it.

I'm still not sure if I will. The safety really is comforting as far as not shooting myself goes, but I'd be more confident in a real-life situation without one standing between me and pulling the trigger!

There's the saying "Why worry about what can kill you tomorrow when there are so many things that can kill you today"

Maybe I'm just being paranoid here and assuming I will get mugged in the worst way possible. Maybe carrying a handgun with a safety on is better than not being armed at all...

notorious
December 26, 2008, 02:28 AM
I don't get what's the big deal. If I had a safety feature that is as easy to use as the 1911 thumb safety, I would have it on and flick it as I draw. What's the big deal? Why does it have to be all or nothing and go unarmed or have a condition 0 gun?

CPshooter
December 26, 2008, 05:22 AM
Why does it have to be all or nothing and go unarmed or have a condition 0 gun?Who said they were going unarmed? I made this thread to discuss whether or not condition 0 is considered "doable" or not by most folks...don't know where you got that idea.

By me saying carrying a gun with a safety on is better than not being armed, I simply meant that maybe it doesn't matter whether it's condition 0,1,etc. so long as you have a gun to give yourself a chance if SHTF.

I still feel that condition 0 isn't a big deal as long as you are careful when holstering the gun. I mean a M&P or Glock w/o a grip safety vs. a 1911 with a grip safety...just think about that for a second. It doesn't matter how long or short the trigger pull is. When you're talking a trigger pull weight of < 6lbs, a gun with a grip safety is always safer than a gun without one because it ensures that you have a proper, firm grip on the gun before it can shoot. After that point, the only safety left is your brain!

notorious
December 26, 2008, 05:34 AM
Hmm, well I guess it really is up to me after all. I just wanted more opinions before I went ahead and did it.

I'm still not sure if I will. The safety really is comforting as far as not shooting myself goes, but I'd be more confident in a real-life situation without one standing between me and pulling the trigger!

There's the saying "Why worry about what can kill you tomorrow when there are so many things that can kill you today"

Maybe I'm just being paranoid here and assuming I will get mugged in the worst way possible. Maybe carrying a handgun with a safety on is better than not being armed at all...

Okay, maybe I misread your last statement out of context but that's what I thought you said... being cocked and locked is better than being unarmed.

1911Tuner
December 26, 2008, 08:16 AM
The problem is that I don't fully trust myself to do it if I were faced with a real threat,

You haven't practiced it enough. When it becomes an autoresponse...programmed to happen without conscious thought or effort on your part...then you'll trust yourself.

45auto
December 26, 2008, 09:12 AM
but I still can't see why it is any worse than a Glock with no grip safety at all. Some of you see it the same way I do, but most of you still think it's a bad idea.


Glock has a "loooong" trigger pull. You have more "time", so to speak, to back off if you shouldn't be on trigger. With a 1911, it would have fired.

Would you carry a DA revolver in a holster with the hammer cocked...and believe it's safe?

CPshooter
December 26, 2008, 05:12 PM
Would you carry a DA revolver in a holster with the hammer cocked...and believe it's safe?A revolver doesn't have a grip safety. Also, a cocked revolver typically has much more of a "hair" trigger than the single-action 1911. Most 1911s have a ~5lbs trigger pull that still has a little bit of take-up before it breaks. Revolvers usually have NO takeup, and are lighter too. To answer your question, hell no I wouldn't carry a revolver in SA:)

I'm not necessarily concerned that I will accidentally pull the trigger once my finger is placed on it. If I have to pull my gun out, it IS going to be used. The length of the trigger pull doesn't matter at that point.

I do see the point you are trying to make though..

notorious
December 26, 2008, 05:38 PM
Yep, revolvers in SA condition is a no-go. Even SA only revolvers have that half-cock as the default safety device. I would do a half-cock on a revolver, never fully cocked. Heck, with my SW M640-1, I have no options but a DA pull for every shot because I couldn't find the bodyguard model.

SuperNaut
December 26, 2008, 05:43 PM
You don't have to use your parking brake either, but it sure beats finding your car at the bottom of the hill inside your neighbors living room.

If you include sweeping the safety during your draw as part of your normal training regimen, there is no time loss and there is no memory involved. Since there is no time loss, and no memory issue, what other benefit is there to keeping the safety disengaged?

rcmodel
December 26, 2008, 05:46 PM
Well, you might get to try out your medical insurance plan, or your lawyer.

rcmodel

notorious
December 26, 2008, 07:03 PM
Exactly... if it's there for an intended purpose, use it. Otherwise, just get a SA gun with no safety like... well... they all come with one, don't they? The manufacturers might be onto something there!

Leadhead
December 26, 2008, 07:27 PM
I like the revolver analogy....with a transfer bar safety it is quite simillar to what you are suggesting.

orchidhunter
December 26, 2008, 08:12 PM
The S&W Model 40 has a grip saftey. The pic I posted is not it, a little to much Xmas cheer, i guess. orchidhunter

orchidhunter
December 26, 2008, 08:18 PM
http://jpeghttp://jpeg

johnnylaw53
December 27, 2008, 06:30 AM
As mention the 1911 was first designed without the thumb safty the military wanted it added. I carried one for awhile when I was an M.P. we was suppose to carry it with an empty chamber but after inspection most of us would rack it and engage the safty. I feel the 1911 is a great weapon but if it your choice then it the only platform you should use at least until you have trained so much with it it become natrul to pull and disengage the safty when you ready to fire. Now days since i'm requiered to carry a sig on duty and my choice for off duty is a s&w 642 I just leave the 1911's alone.

dmazur
December 28, 2008, 11:59 PM
I believe the Ultra Carry II has the firing pin safety, similar to a Series-80 Colt except it is activated by the grip safety instead of the trigger.

So, Series-80 Colt 1911's, Kimber model II's, and similar have a firing pin safety that prevents discharge unless someone is holding the pistol or pulling the trigger. This is similar, but not identical, to Glock's safe action (?) design which blocks the firing pin until someone pulls the trigger.

The problem with all of these designs is that something can go wrong. There are quite a few LEO's who have found out that holsters, shirt tails, etc. are just as good as a finger, as far as the Glock is concerned.

I believe there is a case of a discharge involving a XD while reholstering, because, after all, the grip safety was depressed...

With 1911's that don't have a firing pin safety, it is definitely questionable to carry cocked with safety off (Condition 0). With those that do, you are perhaps on a par with the Glocks and XD's, which some folks just can't manage to operate without an occasional unintentional discharge.

So, since the modern 1911 has not only a firing pin safety, but a thumb safety, why not just use the darn thing? It isn't that hard to learn to swipe it off, and then you can rest assured that even careless reholstering is an OK thing, provided you flick the safety on before you try it!

notorious
December 29, 2008, 12:08 AM
The manual safety is a good thing and if I had it on my EDCSAG, I would definitely use it. On my 92FS though, I don't bother after I decock because I don't push down with 12 pounds of pressure while reholstering.

quaqor
December 29, 2008, 02:24 PM
The SAS were known for carrying their Browning 9 mm's in Condition 0. Of course, they were known for doing a number of dangerous things. The older Brownings a small safety lever held in place with friction that was not nearly as user friendly as the one found on 1911's.

MythBuster
December 29, 2008, 07:08 PM
Deanimator wrote,

"Actually, it was designed to be carried cocked and NOT locked."

That is 100% BS my friend.

1911Tuner
December 29, 2008, 07:35 PM
That is 100% BS my friend.

Noitain't. :) Browning's first prototype submitted to the Army for evaluation didn't have a thumb safety. It had the grip safety only.

Old Fuff
December 29, 2008, 08:11 PM
All of Browning's .38 pistols that were submitted to the Army for trial and evaluation lacked both a safety lock (manual safety) and grip safety, as did all of the commercial .38 automatics made between 1900 and 1929. :what:

Colt's first commercial .45 pistol was the model 1905, and it also didn't have either safety, but about this time Browning made his first prototype for the Army that did have an experimental grip safety - but still no manual one. The very last change of any consequence was to add a manual safety to a prototype in late 1910, just a few months before the design was adopted.

It was generally the practice to carry these pistols with the hammer down, on either a loaded or unloaded chamber, and these modes remained popular until Jeff Cooper came along in the late 1970's and told us that condition 1 (cocked & locked) was the only way to go. Many disagreed, and some still do. Most of them are old-timers with experience going back to the late 1930's or 40's - or younger ones that learned the older ways from them.

William Fairbairn, who was in charge of weapons & training in the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Department between the two World Wars, and later taught British Commandos, armed his officers with Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols that had been modified with a small screw so that the manual safety was blocked in the "off" position. Yes they were carried with the chamber loaded. At the time Shanghai was a world class crime-center, with numerous daily gunfights, and for the most part his officers survived.

The sound you just heard was the cocked & locked /use-a-45 crowd swooning.... :evil: :D

Given his reputation and experience ya' can't exactly say that Fairbairn didn't know what he was doing... ;)

1911shooter
December 29, 2008, 08:45 PM
Carry a 1911 with the safty off, NEVER EVER do it under any condition, and i would never ever holster a cocked double action revolver either.:what:

rjsixgun
December 29, 2008, 09:07 PM
The reason the original Browning design didnt have a thumb safty was because it was designed to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber....Yeup you heard me right, hammer down on a loaded chamer.
Browning designed the pistol with a "IRON" fireing pin and a strong spring, the Fireing pin is shorter than the pins channel, this made it safe to have the hammer at rest with out the pin comeing in contack with the live round.

You'll find a nice article in the NRA magazine from about 3 years ago on this topic.

The only reason Army wanted a thumb safety is because a calvery guy might slip when decocking it and might kill his horse.

In 1910 the final prototype for the Model 1911 pistol, incorporating the addition of the manual safety lever, was put through an exhaustive test regimen. At one point, six thousand rounds were fired through a single pistol without a single jam or failure. On May 5, 1911 the Colt pistol was officially accepted as the "Automatic Pistol, Calibre .45, Model of 1911."Following its adoption by the Army, the M1911 was also accepted by the Navy and the Marines. It was also adopted by Norway, for use by their armed forces. Supplemental production capacity was set up at Springfield Armory, in order to meet the heavy demand for the pistol. When the United States entered World War I, demand for the pistol was so great that contracts were let out to several other manufacturers. Only Remington/U.M.C. actually went into production, however, before the war ended, resulting in the abrupt cancellation of all outstanding contracts

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hist_dev.htm

Boba Fett
December 29, 2008, 09:24 PM
Haven't read all the posts, but here's my two cents:

If the gun has a safety, I'd probably use it 99.9999% of the time. ESPECIALLY on a 1911. All the 1911s I've seen have very easy trigger pulls. The Kimber Ultra Carry II has a 4-5 lb pull.

Versus something like the Sig P220 Compact which doesn't have a safety, but does have a DA/SA trigger. DA 10 lb / SA 4.4 lb.

With the trigger being that light, I think it's nuts to carry it with the safety off.

Old Fuff
December 29, 2008, 10:01 PM
and i would never ever holster a cocked double action revolver either.

Well it would probably be a good idea not to, but that was one issue the Cavalry had with the automatic pistols that Mr. Browning and Colt were submitting. They favored Coltís improved New Service .45 revolver because it had not one, but two internal mechanical safeties that would prevent an accidental discharge; even if it was holstered by a trooper on a bucking horse with the hammer cocked. If the hammer should fall a discharge would be prevented unless during the time the hammer was falling the trigger was held back. This was considered to be improbable if not impossible because of the design of the issue holster that fully covered the trigger guard.

Even today, many shooters are unaware that since about 1908 Colt revolvers had positive mechanical safeties that functioned without requiring any manual operation by the user, and the same was true of Smith & Wessonís after 1944.

A user might forget to engage (or disengage) a manual safety on a pistol, but with a revolver it wasnít necessary they do anything.

Old Fuff
December 29, 2008, 10:05 PM
Versus something like the Sig P220 Compact which doesn't have a safety, but does have a DA/SA trigger. DA 10 lb / SA 4.4 lb.

No, it has an internal mechanical safety the blocks the firing pin and requires no manual operation. The safety is disengaged only when the trigger is pulled and held all of the way back.

Boba Fett
December 29, 2008, 10:43 PM
No, it has an internal mechanical safety the blocks the firing pin and requires no manual operation. The safety is disengaged only when the trigger is pulled and held all of the way back.

Sorry, since we were talking external safeties with the 1911, I wasn't think thinking about that.

I should have said "doesn't have an external safety."

Old Fuff
December 29, 2008, 10:53 PM
I wouldn't make an issue of it, except that it seem that some members who are posting on this thread seem to think that double-action/hand ejector revolvers don't have safeties, and pistols without obvious manual safeties don't either. This of course is far from the truth, and in some ways mechanical safeties have the advantage of always working without being dependent on the shooter remembering to do something.

Returning to the original post, it would seem to me that those that don't want to be bothered with a manual safety should consider those handguns that have mechanical ones. Then they can forget "flipping the switch," while being completely safe. Why take on any extra risk? :scrutiny:

Boba Fett
December 29, 2008, 11:03 PM
I wouldn't make an issue of it, except that it seem that some members who are posting on this thread seem to think that double-action/hand ejector revolvers don't have safeties, and pistols without obvious manual safeties don't either.

No problem Fuff. In fact, I'm glad you pointed it out for the reason you stated above. Clarity is a good thing and more information adds to clarity.

Then they can forget "flipping the switch," while being completely safe. Why take on any extra risk?

Why indeed? Perhaps the OP can answer that since it was his idea...

DarkSoldier
December 30, 2008, 01:39 AM
To the OP,

I carry mine cocked and locked. Never any other way. Ever. Releasing the safety is not an issue.

But that's just me and not intended as advice or instruction for others who may know better.

For someone just starting out on 1911 platform, my best advice would be to seek competent instruction from qualified professional instructors who are proficient in the defensive application of that particular pistol.

Find out how the FBI HRT, LAPD (SWAT and SIS) and other LE agencies who use the 1911 carry them. Learn the weapon. Devote yourself to the never ending process of mastering it.

It matters little how the gun was designed to be carried, or intended to be carried, a century ago. What matters is finding the safest and most efficient way to use it in 2009.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

ezypikns
December 30, 2008, 01:51 AM
Just carry it, safety off, finger outside of trigger guard, in your shooting hand all the time.

Actually, if you take it one step further (your MIND is the ultimate safety), just go ahead and ease your finger on to the trigger. YOU know you'll never pull it by mistake. right?

I believe I'll just carry cocked and locked, and sweep the safety off on the draw.

notorious
December 30, 2008, 05:04 AM
Isn't that why Colt made the series 80 because the series 70 had an issue with hammers on a loaded chamber?

Also, when did the half-cock hammer notch make it onto the 1911? Wasn't that also a safety feature to prevent a hammer from falling on a loaded chamber if the trigger wasn't pulled all the way back? I know it worked on the SAA and other SA revolvers so it would seem that the 1911 would also have that feature, being Sam is the originator of both firearms.

rjsixgun
December 30, 2008, 09:02 AM
Sometimes I think they made the series 80 because they were "affraid" LOL!

I have taken my series 70 and beat the hammer with a brass hammer, and the gun never fired, I hit the thing with a 6x6 so hard that the hammer imbedded it self into the wood....still never fired. But then someone said "well it would fire if it fell on the muzzle" I told the guy to use his gun for that test! LOL!
But I see nothing wrong with the series 80's and I have no complaint with my Taurus for being a series 80.
Safeties are there for a reason......To use and to make safe.
and Hammers are there for a reason.....to cock and de-cock.

Remember the 1911 design is over 100 years old. Auto pistols were still "NEW" but hammered and hammerless guns were not. Think about it, are there any hammer guns that are made to carry cocked and locked? would you carry your lever gun cocked and locked? or how about your double barrelled shotgun? yes I know they come with and with-out hammers, but I'm sure you get my point. Only untill Jeff Cooper 100 years later told us to carry cocked and locked did people start doing it. Is it safe? well its as safe as any loaded firearm with its safety on. Now should you carry it in condition "0"? NO and NO again. You'll find out the reason its not safe when you blow a hole in yourself! but hope fully you wont wait for that to happen.

Look at some of the military "NON" flap holsters, Pilot and tanker type holsters. If used properly and the way they are intended to use, the strap goes across the "grip-safety" thus bypassing it as a safety. You think they want a pilot to shoot a hole in his chest? no you cock the gun as you draw it, just like a revolver. The same for all "Pre-Jeff Cooper" holsters, all locked the gun either behind the hammer or across the grip safety.

Face it the gun is 100 years old and a great design, but it was never intended to be carried cocked with no safety. In my eyes there are only 2 ways to carry a 1911, Loaded with the hammer down (the way it was made) or the Cooper way (cocked and locked) If you dont like those ways then carry something else.

Old Fuff
December 30, 2008, 09:59 AM
Isn't that why Colt made the series 80 because the series 70 had an issue with hammers on a loaded chamber?

No, It was because the comapny's lawyers were having a cow. They even put a notice in the user manual that one should always carry their Colt pistol with the chamber empty. It's still there I believe.

Also, when did the half-cock hammer notch make it onto the 1911?

From the beginning, long before any .45 pistol was thought of. It was in his first design - a .38 pistol first made in 1900.

Wasn't that also a safety feature to prevent a hammer from falling on a loaded chamber if the trigger wasn't pulled all the way back?

Not exactly, it was there to catch the hammer if it fell from full-cock and followed the slide down when the pistol cycled.

know it worked on the SAA and other SA revolvers

It wasn't the half-cock, but rather the safety notch, and it didn't work well at all. If the revolver was dropped on a hard surface and it landed on the hammer spur, the blow could break the trigger and the gun would fire. That is why even today those who know what they are doing, and carry a Colt or Colt clone, always carry the hammer down on an empty chamber.

so it would seem that the 1911 would also have that feature, being Sam is the originator of both firearms.

Sam had nothing to do with either. He died in 1864. The Single Action Army model dates from 1873, the 1911 pistol from 1910. Colt's cap & ball revolvers had a half-cock notch for purposes of releasing the cylinder so that it could be loaded, but was not in any way a safety.

rjsixgun
December 30, 2008, 10:40 AM
Old Fuff is correct, the Half cock on a revolver is very differant from the "half cock" (misnomer) of a 1911. The 1911 is more of a lip that will catch the hammer, but on a single action revolver it is a grove that will trap and keep the trigger from moving. You will also find this type design on old muskets and trapdoors. Old single actions should never be carried half cocked. Remington fixed the problem of carry'n six loaded in the cylenders by adding notches between each cylender that would trap the hammer between each cylender and it could be carried fully loaded with six, hammer down "IN" the safety.

Now the term Half Cock and the 1911 is a mis-nomer, it is really a Hammer stop or catch. DO NOT CARRY A 1911 ON THIS NOTCH!

notorious
December 30, 2008, 02:18 PM
Ah... see, that's why this is my favorite site... good info to know. I have a Para-Ord that I hardly shoot but now I understand it better.

rcmodel
December 30, 2008, 02:38 PM
I have taken my series 70 and beat the hammer with a brass hammer, and the gun never fired, I hit the thing with a 6x6 so hard that the hammer imbedded it self into the wood....still never fired.1911's use what is called an inertia firing pin.
It is shorter then the hole in the slide it rides in, and held to the rear by the firing pin spring.

With the hammer all the way down, it is resting on the rear of the slide, (actually the firing pin retainer plate) with the FP spring compressed slightly. The other end of the FP is still inside the hole in the slide.

You could beat the hammer until it broke off and not have any effect at all on the firing pin or primer.

The only way the inertia FP can reach & set off a primer is through the inertia/momentum imparted to it by a full impact from the falling hammer.

Like a Q-ball hitting the 8-ball.

With the hammer resting on the Intercept notch (safety or 1/2 cock notch) a blow to the hammer could bend or break the sear or sear pin, and the hammer would then get a running start at the firing pin, and have enough energy to set of a round.

With it cocked & locked, the hammer spur (& sear) is protected from direct impact by the grip safety tang.

rcmodel

Billy Shears
December 30, 2008, 03:11 PM
Actually, Old Fuff, I must correct you on one point you made:

William Fairbairn, who was in charge of weapons & training in the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Department between the two World Wars, and later taught British Commandos, armed his officers with Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols that had been modified with a small screw so that the manual safety was blocked in the "off" position. Yes they were carried with the chamber loaded. At the time Shanghai was a world class crime-center, with numerous daily gunfights, and for the most part his officers survived.
Alas, this turns out not to be the case.

Fairbairn did indeed recommend the Colt automatic (he favored the .45 government model for most, and for those officers with very small hands, the 1908), and did indeed have the thumb safeties on his officers' weapons deactivated. He did not, however, allow them to carry the pistols with a round chambered in these now "safetyless" pistols.

On p. 18 of his book Shooting to Live (co-authored with E.A. Sykes), in discussing officer's initial training and familiarization with the automatic pistol Fairbairn states:

The insertion of the magazine and the loading and unloading of the pistol should then be demonstrated and explained. Each operation is described in detail and illustrated on the following pages. This is the moment for the instructor to point out and give the reason for the pinning down, out of action, of the safety-catch on the left-hand side of the pistol. He should make it perfectly clear that the pistol, when carried on service, should have a charged magazine inserted, but that it should never be carried with a round in the breech.

Those italics are not added by me either; they are Fairbairn's own.

He goes on to say that the instructor should demonstrate how to draw and fire a weapon in this condition, which he says "compares more than favourably with the alternative of drawing, pulling down a safety catch, and firing a round already in the breech. It should be shown, too, that the first method (with the breech empty) eliminates the fumbling and uncertainty inherent in the use of the safety catch."

It's possible he had a point there about the tiny, factory thumb safeties, which were the only kind available in the 1920s when he penned those words, and could indeed have been difficult to operate under stress. So he had his officers draw and rack the slide, kind of like the "Israeli draw," except that his men, just like everybody else in the '20s, were taught to shoot one handed.

But he certainly didn't advocate "cocked and unlocked" carry.

floydster
December 30, 2008, 09:23 PM
I love my 75 D PCR, rock solid, no worries carrying.

SuperNaut
December 30, 2008, 10:11 PM
When I was in JROTC and ROTC (early '80's) I was trained to lower the 1911's hammer on a live round in the chamber, using both the much vilified "thumb method" as well as the "pinch method." I was also taught to cock the hammer upon the draw. IIRC the process was cock on draw, verify target, sweep safety, fire. I don't know what was taught in the military at the same time, I don't think they were still using the 1911 then.

I didn't learn about Cooper's "cocked and locked" philosophy until the late '90's. I understand his reasoning and it is the method I now adhere to despite all my previous training. However, I do find the cries about manually cocking ruining the sear and the danger of hammer-down on a live round to be quite overblown.

I've read many claims that JMB designed the 1911 to be carried in Con1, but I have never seen any real data to back that up. In this very thread, the design timeline and late additions outlined kind of screw-up the idea that any particular carry condition was pre-planned by anyone.

rjsixgun
December 30, 2008, 10:36 PM
I have no problem carry'n any of my 1911's (70 or 80 series) with the hammer down on a live round, but then again like I said early'r I'm use to single action revolvers, so draw'n and cock'n is second nature to me. Browning put the hammer there for a reason. Might as well use it! LOL!

sdj
December 30, 2008, 11:14 PM
Some folks who are new to the 1911 will carry in "condition one" but with an empty chamber: thereby allowing themselves a time to get comfortable with this mode. Of course, as noted numerous times above, practice (correct practice), instruction and un-rushed transition time play a big part in making safe transition to one-in-the-chamber, cocked-and-locked (a.k.a "condition one") carry. Take your time and give yourself time to adjust and get comfortable. Good luck.

dmazur
December 31, 2008, 03:26 AM
Another $0.02 -

If you carry in Condition 1, sooner or later you're going to have the "administrative problem" of unloading safely.

I believe this is very important. Even if you don't do it frequently, it shouldn't be something that is fumbled and inexact.

There are lots of different opinions on how to do this, and I believe there is no single correct method.

Some rack the slide sharply and catch the ejected round in mid-air. (I read that some IDPA safety officers had a problem with this, which tended to resemble a juggling act accompanied by poor muzzle control.)

Others simply eject it over a mattress or something which prevents damaging the round, and makes it easy to find.

I like to tip the pistol sideways and slowly rack the slide, "rolling" the round into my palm as I simultaneously apply the slide lock with my right thumb. If this is done slowly, I believe there is no danger to your left hand, but this has been brought up as a concern.

notorious
December 31, 2008, 05:59 AM
Isn't it standard to eject the mag, and then tilt the gun over to the right so you can slowly rack the slide and let the live round drop into your left hand as you cup the ejection port?

Unless you are ordered to rack the gun and let the round drop to the ground... which has been given a few times in my career by range masters... I don't know why anyone would do that.

DarkSoldier
December 31, 2008, 12:23 PM
For the OP:

Not intended as advice or instruction, but this works for me for unloading the 1911 style pistol.

Weapon pointed in safe direction and finger off trigger during entire process.

With weapon on safety, remove magazine and set aside.

Double check that mag is removed.

Release safety and eject chambered round and lock slide open.

Visually and physically inspect chamber to be certain it is empty, and check the magazine well (again) to be certain it is empty.

Once you are certain the pistol is empty, visually and physically check the chamber and mag well again to be absolutely certain the gun is empty.

With empty chamber and empty mag well, slowly lower slide.

Then slowly and carefully lower the hammer. I do not dry fire to lower the hammer at this point. This is unloading, not dry firing. Dry firing has its own safety protocol.

Once pistol is safely unloaded, recover ejected ammunition.

Don't try to catch the round. If you are on your own, you can usually insure that your ammunition will fall onto a surface where it will not be damaged while still maintaining strict muzzle discipline and muzzle control. If you are unloading under the direction of a range officer, do as instructed.

Not the smokin' hot gospel, just what works for me.

I'm sure this is a rehash of basics not needed by most posters. No offense intended for all of you who have mastered the 1911 beyond my poor abilities.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

BornAgainBullseye
December 31, 2008, 01:01 PM
shoot themselves in the guts or travels down the leg and out of your knee. I always am cocked and safety "locked"

wrxguyusa
December 31, 2008, 01:16 PM
But then someone said "well it would fire if it fell on the muzzle" I told the guy to use his gun for that test! LOL!

In theory that might cause a discharge, but you sould need a very soft primer and a very high fall. Also add big fins to stabilize the gun so it landed muzzle down rather than heavy side down. I suspect somebody had an ND and blamed it on dropping a gun then sued someone, Colt found out about this lawsuit and decided to modify the 1911.

No, It was because the comapny's lawyers were having a cow. They even put a notice in the user manual that one should always carry their Colt pistol with the chamber empty. It's still there I believe.

Isn't that common to all gun manuals now that they are extremely dangerous and should never be loaded and carried in any way.

kolob10
January 1, 2009, 11:33 AM
I have carried 1911's for over 35 years and I would only carry cocked and locked. I can get it into shooting condition as fast as anyone with a Glock or similar double action pistols. Preparation is the key. Practice, Practice, Practice. Good shooting.

FromMyColdDeadHand
January 6, 2009, 01:47 AM
H&k psp

cland
January 6, 2009, 02:42 PM
Some are bolder than most of us. Some time ago in the Texas Ranger Museum, Waco, Texas, I saw an engraved, fancy Colt 1911 formerly owned by a Ranger. The grip safety was taped down and the trigger guard was cut away.

His statement with the pistol stated something on the order of, "I had one not ready to shoot when I needed it, this one is ready to go"...more or less in those words.

I have carried mine Jeff Cooper style but it bothers me to find the holster or whatever has moved the safety to the off position. I am neither brave, foolish nor a Ranger.......................:uhoh:

Beagle-zebub
January 6, 2009, 02:54 PM
I have carried mine Jeff Cooper style but it bothers me to find the holster or whatever has moved the safety to the off position. I am neither brave, foolish nor a Ranger.......................

Yeah, see, that's the nightmare scenario I have regarding condition one carry.

Murphy's Law!

rjsixgun
January 6, 2009, 03:12 PM
And that my friends is why John Browning put a hammer on the gun!
I always carry all my auto pistols in Condition 2, Loaded with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Perfectly safe to do and what the gun was made to do.

Remember Browning invented the gun and put a hammer on it, he already made "hammerless" models That the Govt did not accept. If he inteded it to be carried "Cocked & Locked" then why bother with an external hammer.

100 years later Jeff Cooper desided he knew better than the man that invented the gun and told the world that "His Way" is the only way to carry "cocked & locked". I wonder if Cooper carried his lever gun or his revolver like that. I'm willing to say he didnt.

Let your brain be your #1 saftey with any firearm, If you dont think its safe, then its not, and dont let anyone tell you differant.

FoMoGo
January 6, 2009, 04:20 PM
Yeah, see, that's the nightmare scenario I have regarding condition one carry.
You still have to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger to make it fire.
Having the safety unintentionally wipe off is one reason I dont care for an ambi safety for myself.


Jim

Mello
January 9, 2009, 11:12 AM
I do not know who first said: "the only real safety is between your ears."; but I believe it.

I admit that all of my firearms training has taught the use of some sort of mechanical safety device. Included in that instruction was the warning never to depend upon the safety to prevent the firearm from discharging.

So, assuming that the firearm in question can not discharge unless the trigger is depressed, and assuming that the shooter does not place a finger on the trigger to depress the trigger until the front sight is on the target, and removes his finger from the trigger when the front sight is not on the target; then the bypassing of the slide safety should be safe.

notorious
January 9, 2009, 11:15 AM
Mechanically yes. A gun will sit there forever in a holster and it will never fire.

However, when you add the human element, no matter how experienced the operator, there always exists the chance of operator error or just some quirk like a shirt tail getting in the holster or holster strap or something.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 12:19 PM
according to the m-1911 field manual printed in 1912, The 1911 sould not be carried in the cocked and locked postition with the saftey on in the holster, because if the pistol is struck from the rear it will disingage the safety. That being said, If the gun is carried in this fashon it should be drawn from the holster in a turning motion, turning the but of the pistol away from the hip as to not disengage the thumb safty while drawing the pistol. It also goes into great detail on how to uncock the hammer on a loaded round, also states that the gun is safe in this possition as to the fireing pin cannot hit the primer of a live cartrige unless struck by the full blow of the hammer. But then is also said the gun should not be carried like this either, but it does tell you how to fire the 1911 from this position.....Go figure, its a Military manual do this, dont do this, if you do do this, if its raining baby zebras on the 4th of July then do this.....

Basically carry it anyway you want, the training manual covers all types of carry and suggests non!!! LOL.

sevin8nin
January 9, 2009, 12:24 PM
I think all the manuals i've got today also state never to put the 1911 in condition 1.
I don't understand this, as you are better off throwing the gun at someone than carrying it condition 3.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 12:34 PM
Well thats the funny thing about the military manual, it doesnt tell you how to carry the gun!!! It tells you about C1 and C2, but never mentions any other way of carry'n it!!!! LOL! I guess even the US Military has this arguement on how it should be carried.

Mello
January 9, 2009, 01:32 PM
I think all the manuals i've got today also state never to put the 1911 in condition 1.
I don't understand this, as you are better off throwing the gun at someone than carrying it condition 3
You have to consider the purpose for which the manual was written. Different manuals = different purposes.

I deduce that the primary purpose behind publishing a manual which says to never carry a 1911 in condition one is to avoid liability.

The writings of Jeff Cooper seem to have the purpose of expressing the truth as he saw it. His primary objective was to see what worked best under what he considered "real world" scenarios and teach that which worked.

You may note that I refer Jeff Cooper or Gunsite (more properly known as the American Pistol Institute) in several of my postings. This is because I admire the man and his writings.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 02:05 PM
Also if you look at WWI threw Vietnam millitary holsters, The flap hoslter will permit any condition of carry. However if you look at Pre-WWI and any US military shoulder holster they all have retention straps that would go across the back of the pistol hence dis-engageing the grip safety. So one could assume C2 or C3 only in those type holsters.
I dont think any modern holster offers anytype of good retention of the 1911 because they either have No thumbrake or a thumbrake that is in front of the hammer. This does not include the new serpa holster that locks the trigger guard.

I will admit that I have a belt slide for my 1911 and I am looking into a new TripleK holster with a thumbrake though..

But based on Military holsters of the time of 1905 to today, I can only deduce that the military preferred C2 or C3. Put your self in the mind-set of a tanker or pilot wearing an M3 or M7 shoulder rig, would you carry it C1? Or a Horse mounted soldier, would ya really want to fall off a horse in C1?

But I never rode a horse to my local store, and well my car is a tank compaired to those modern cars! LOL!

aji
January 9, 2009, 02:28 PM
Shouldn't be carried any other way but cocked & locked

SuperNaut
January 9, 2009, 02:30 PM
Shouldn't be carried any other way but cocked & locked If anything this thread has shown such statements to be opinion only.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 03:24 PM
Yeup! opinions are like ass-holes, we all got'm.

But I think we can all agree that the 1911 is one hell of a pistol anyway you carry it!

notorious
January 9, 2009, 03:27 PM
Military manuals are also written for the lowest denominator to prevent those who are not lifelong shooters from handling a cocked and locked pistol during the stress of combat. Not everybody is a Jeff Cooper disciple or was born with a 1911 in their diaper.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 03:31 PM
LOL! you mean to tell me there were'n alot of people born with 1911'sin there diapers........Dam the wife was right!

notorious
January 9, 2009, 03:36 PM
I don't know about the rest of the country, but I wasn't born with a 1911 tucked in my diapers, Mexican-carry.

I had a Winchester 94 under my pillow instead.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 03:43 PM
So then what your saying is, if My wife has a baby it wont increase my chances of getting another 1911 ? :cuss: She lied to me!!!!!!

notorious
January 9, 2009, 03:45 PM
Well... the way the country is going, your baby has to first survive state sponsored and subsidized abortion by the Family Planning freaks and then go through the registration and qualification and background checks before he can apply for the permit to get a 1911 and then maybe he can buy one to tuck in his diapers. Even then, the anti-gun babies will just protest his crib until he moves to another section of the maternity ward that is more pro-gun.

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 03:52 PM
LOL!
Hey I have kinda a OT question, I have a NY and PA carry permit and I never needed to take any qualification classes.......What is every one talking about? do some states make you take classes for a permit? I was however an instrutor but that was a long time ago.

notorious
January 9, 2009, 04:10 PM
I believe Utah and Florida have CCW classes that is mandatory before they will issue. Nevada didn't use to have a class but they did require you to go to a range and shoot a qualifying score before they will issue.

CA does not require classes or qualifications but you do have to donate $5k minimum to the local sheriff for his election fund. (at least that is the local rule for SoCal)

rjsixgun
January 9, 2009, 04:29 PM
Ah now I got it, I've always wondered what the hell people were talking about with these classes. I use to me an instructor back in NY, but most if not all the people in my classes already had permits or just got them and they wanted to know about Firearms Safety, but it was not a requierment nor was it reported to the state. It was just something my range offered people to promote safety.
I didnt know it was required in some states. Guess NY wasnt that bad after all....well ok it was bad, flat out sucked! But it is a pretty state.

Now back to 1911's

I just yelled at the wifey, about babies and 1911's, she just laughed at me!

CPshooter
January 10, 2009, 04:14 AM
Dang! When I made this thread, I should have known it would be a hot topic of discussion!

I've read every post, and now I don't feel so bad about thinking C0 is ok. Looks like everyone has an opinion, and in the end I believe the 1911 is a safe design, no matter how it is carried. This, of course, is assuming the operator is VERY mindful of what they are doing at all times.

However, I don't think carrying on a live round, or even worse, on an empy chamber with the hammer down is a good idea. Even with practice, this is definitely something that seems impossible to do in a pinch situation and under stress. I find that the hammer is rather difficult to manipulate in the first place. And then the thought of it slipping from my thumb is scary, even though it is highly unlikely it will ignite the primer. Either way, having a 1911 with the hammer down sounds stupid. A revolver is different, obviously, because you can still squeeze of a round with a stiff DA pull. A SAO gun w/ the hammer down is useless when SHTF.

notorious
January 10, 2009, 05:36 AM
The spur hammer might be tough but not the squared off commander type hammer, especially if you have an action job done.

My Para hammer is very smooth and easy to actuate. However, since it is only my range gun, not my EDC, I can't speak to how it would work in a SHTF situation.

TEDDY
January 10, 2009, 01:04 PM
I carried in the service,but there really is a difference.you dont need the gun ready to go you chamber one if you expect to go into combat.If you practice you can rack it as fast as needed.I use to shoot a revolver in comp.and I would single action in timed and rapid.I never had probles with cocking and with the 1911,you can rack it in a flash.now a Hi-Point is a bird of another color.:rolleyes: :uhoh: :eek: :D

FoMoGo
January 10, 2009, 03:10 PM
If you practice you can rack it as fast as needed.
What if one arm is disabled or you are using it to keep someone off of you while you draw?
In that instance just having to thumb off the safety and pull the trigger makes a LOT of sense.


Jim

WardenWolf
January 10, 2009, 03:14 PM
Honestly, it's a safe enough gun to carry locked and cocked. You MUST have the safety on, however. The 1911 has such a hair trigger that I'd never even consider carrying it without the safety engaged. Modern 1911's usually have an ambidextrous safety, and it's the most natural thing in the world to disengage it while drawing it. Don't be stupid: keep the safety on.

tipoc
January 11, 2009, 08:30 PM
oops

tipoc

tipoc
January 11, 2009, 08:39 PM
double oops

tipoc

tipoc
January 11, 2009, 08:40 PM
Good thread.

"Back in the day" when Cooper began his career, it was fairly common to see pinned grip safeties. This was because a good many folks who went for their guns quickly did not always depress the grip safeties all the way. Nowadays safeties with "memory bumps", etc. are available so this problem can be avoided and the need for pinned safeties avoided.

Cooper felt and taught that the safest way to carry the gun so that it could be brought into action the fastest was C&L. I think he was right. It ain't Coopers fault that the skills needed to carry in other conditions (and situations sometimes make other conditions desirable) became frowned on and many instructors taught folks to fear the 1911 and anything but condition one.

The 1911 is a very versatile gun. It can be safely carried a number of ways. It can be set up for the shooters preferences. It can have a very good trigger.

It's also a gun that in MHO invites dedication to it if it is your choice for carry. Dedication means a fella won't "forget" to swipe off the safety.

For years I've carried 1911s either condition one or two. I've used condition 3 when it is called for but never for carry. I've never intentionally carried cocked but not locked. Never saw the need.

tipoc

123odc
April 6, 2009, 11:20 AM
My good friend who was in the MILITARY POLICE stationed in GERMANY in the 1950's, showed me how to load a round in the chamber with the safety off and the chamber empty, using the issue military leather flap holster worn on the hip. Upon drawing the pistol, turn it 90 degrees so that the but of the pistol is facing away from you and the front of it is not all the way out of the holster. Push down hard enough to push the slide all the way back and pull the pistol up out of the holster and you will find that a round has been chambered. I don't remember if he said that was the way that they were to carry it or not. This method may have been mentioned before as there are a lot of threads on this and I haven't read them all.

123odc
April 6, 2009, 11:24 AM
Just wondering, How long is the MAIN SPRING ( HAMMER SPRING) life, if left cocked all the time?

SharpsDressedMan
April 6, 2009, 09:09 PM
Anyone besides me found their 1911 in Conditon Zero THINKING it was in Conditon 1, aftyer their oversized or ambi-safety got snicked off by the holster while carrying? Thank God the 1911 is relatively safe in Condition Zero, too.......

Zerodefect
April 6, 2009, 09:27 PM
Yup the 1911 is plenty safe in c0 as long as its in a good holster. You still have to pull the trigger and squeeze the grip safety. I can't think of a incident that would do that on accident.

I have also found my gun bumped into safety off:what:. I'm still here.

If I was in a bad spot, and had the forsight that I may need my gun. I'd probally click the safety off to speed up the draw, should I need it. I've praticed it. So far I haven't become professional enough to ND my foot.

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