[Kaylee]

Given the news from Ohio, and the lateness of the MO CCW legislation, I gotta wonder -- why is the middle of the country so persnickety on gun stuff? I mean, I'd expect it on the coasts, but... Nebraska?

What IS the political situation out there that leads to that kinda thing?

-K

[StLGlocker]

I'm not sure about Ohio or Nebraska, but for Missouri and Illinois it's a case of one or two liberal cities with large populations dictating to the rest of the (mostly) rural state. St. Louis and Kansas City in MO, and Chicago in IL.

We've finally gotten CCW in MO after years of fighting...I think LONDON will get it before Illinois does.

[Mark Tyson]

It seems to be the cities. Look at Denver vs. rural Colorado, Austin vs. rest of Texas, etc. etc. A bunch of champagne sipping snobs with access to the levers of power harass everyone else.

[C.R.Sam]

Possible contributing factor.

Over 50 years of socialistic government control of the agrarian portions.
Farm subsidies, soil banking, crop allotment, price fixing etc.

A substantial portion of the folks are just plain used to having big brother tell them what is good for them.

Sam

[nondescript]

KEEP TRYING!!!

If the Minnesota uberliberals in the burbs and dales were finally pushed back a couple of steps, than it can be done anywhere!!

I expect them to attempt repeals and extra restrictions in the next few years, and in the meantime they will continue to whimper and whine to the extent of their lungpower.

[El Tejon]

Sam I Am nailed it! The Givemegivemegiveme Culture from which the Democratic Party sprouts.

The Democratic machine in most large urban areas of Ohio, Illinois, Minnesota, Michigan and Missouri is solidly against civil rights. Even in Indiana, the anti-gun static is generated from Gary (near Chicago).

[Henry Bowman]

All of the above, plus back in the 1920's and 30's it was the feeding ground for many bank robber gangs, etc. The locals were either too dirt poor to own a handgun or carried openly without a problem.

Just like today, concealed carry is not the problem. It is just an excuse for an arrest when you can't catch the crooks actually doing something wrong.

[AJ Dual]

Other than our lack of CCW, WI is actually a very good gun state. We have no really bad laws other than federal in terms of bans etc. We have no FOID card like IL, etc. Or purchase permits (albeit a CCW too) like IN. We passed gun-lawsuit protection, have city gun law preemption, and range protection. No long-gun wait, two biz day wait on pistols, which pre-empted the worse federal five day Brady wait before NICS.

The state has about 5 million people, and the population of Milwaukee proper is only around 600-odd thousand and dropping in favor of the more conservative burbs as "white flight" is an ongoing phenomena here. That helps keep Milwaukee from dominating the state, like Chicago does IL.

Then theres Madison, which is politically even worse, instead of inner-city driven liberal politics, it's the "true believer" sprout-eating, aging hippie "San Fransisco" kind of liberal.

Fourtunately, Milwaukee and Madison have sort of an antipathy for one another since Madison is the capitol and Milwaukee the largest city, which puts them at odds for "control" of the state, plus their liberal democrat politics have different idiological bases. If the two got together, they could allow liberals and anti's to dominate the state even further.

Couple that feud between the two liberal bastions, the countryside and burbs still being in the majority population-wise and representation wise, it keeps the state from becoming a total liberal hell-hole. Also, the Democratic base is often "Union Democrats" who are socially conservative, and Democrat for labor issues only, and "Farm Democrats" who are also socially conservative, and Democrat only on farm subsidy type issues.

Another factor that helps the gun culture here is, other than Green Bay Packers footbal, the most popular sport here is Deer season.

[Bill Hook]

and Chicago in IL.

Springfield's pretty liberal too. Urbana-Champaign isn't far behind.

[El Tejon]

Mmmm, Andrew, you may be confusing Missouri with Indiana. Indiana has no "permit to purchase" (other than a background check). As well, we have a LTCH, not a CCW.:confused:

[AJ Dual]

I thought that the $25 Indiana LTCH, was also "purchase permit"?

Or that you could buy the gun without one, but the LTCH was required to transport the gun home,i.e. "carry it", making it a de-facto purchase permit?

Admittedly confused. Can you buy a handgun and transport it unloaded and loced without a LTCH?

Either way, I thought that the Indiana system was one of those things that is sort of ornerous, being a purchase permit, but in the end, "a good thing" since it was also de-facto CCW.

[El Tejon]

Andrew, the "little pink card" allowed one to skip the background check. As well, it made things easier with transporting handguns. However, there is/was no requirement to possess one before purchase.

"Silly but a good thing" describes much of Indiana law.:D

[Keith]

Over 50 years of socialistic government control of the agrarian portions.

Yup, Sam nailed it! The agricultural states have become just as dependent on gubmint hand-outs as any inner city ghetto. People vote for their pocketbook - and the liberals are doling out the money.

Keith

[dance varmint]

Iowa-Indiana transplant checking in here. There's a sizeable population of liberal pacifist guilt-ridden criminal-coddling socialist Christians throughout the area. Look at the anti-gun official positions of churches such as the Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. The anti-CCW former governors of MN editorialized about CCW violating some sort of "social contract". But people are waking up from this "let me annoint your feet, brother" attitude toward criminal miscreants, evidenced by MN and MO.

[Standing Wolf]

Over 50 years of socialistic government control of the agrarian portions.
Farm subsidies, soil banking, crop allotment, price fixing etc.
A substantial portion of the folks are just plain used to having big brother tell them what is good for them.

Yep. I'd guess that explains much of what's wrong with Iowa: too much free government money.

[Sodbuster]

Nebraska's is a sad story, I can't explain it. On TFL and perhaps here I've mentioned Nebraska had two of the most seriously conservative senators ever: Roman Hruska and Carl Curtis. The political change from these two to the likes of Bob Kerrey and Ben Nelson is inexplicable. When I grew up in Nebraska (near Lincoln) I could hunt almost anywhere without asking. I would target shoot at a friend's farm: a plastic milk jug, a few ounces of gasoline, and the hot summer sun made for some fun shooting. :D Kids carried their shotguns to school with them so they could hunt pheasant on the way home after school. Nobody worried about firearms; it was part of daily life. Though not large by national standards, I imagine Omaha and Lincoln are turning blue, if they aren't already, while the rest of the state is red. The do-gooders in the two cities ruin it for everyone else. Population shift from the rural areas to the cities. Goes back to what Sam said. The state I grew up in would have had Vermont-style carry. That was long ago and far away. :(

[SteelyDan]

It really does seem to be an urban thing. In Minnesota, too, about half the population lives in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area, and that's where about 80% of the anti-gun rhetoric comes from. More specifically, it tends to eminate from the legislators who (supposedly) represent the residents of those two cities, even though they represent only about a third or less of the entire metropolitan area. It's an interesting question, and I'm not sure why urban interests seem to be so anti-gun.

[SaintofKillers]

As long as Daley is around there will be no CCW in IL, The I$RA is finally going to take up the charge on this seeing that they dont want to see Ill. as the only state without a CCW. Most outside of Krook county dont want anything to do with Shi%cago, there is also a lot of resentment against the dems in this state that told us gunowners that we had nothing to fear from Blago(who the hell believes that???) right after hes in office Daley and his cronies try to push thru the biggest gun control confiscations in this countries history. Thankfully most of it was defeated by downstaters.

[DonP]

Several of you hit it on the head.

The Chicago political machine dictates the laws for the entire state. The collar counties around Chicago, where most of the city dwellers have moved to, are run literally and figuratively by soccer mom types.

As long as Daley holds the reins regular citizens will not have the same protections he has for himself, his friends and family. (On the other hand we also won't get the $400 million contracts that he issues to his friends for boondoggles like Millenium Park for instance, or the nightmare that Soldier Field has become.)

When Daley finally goes to the "Big Ward Boss in the Sky" to answer for his life there will be true chaos and confusion in Cook county and the downstaters, if they are quick and don't get into P---- contests, can take control of the state back from Chicago.

Course, that's just my opinion.

Don P.

[Hutch]

Other than our lack of CCW, WI is actually a very good gun state.
Isn't that like asking "Other than that one little thing, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" Or, except for colon cancer, I'm in remarkably good health!

[Monkeyleg]

Hutch, that's going to change, and right soon.

Wisconsin, and the midwest as a whole, is a really schizophrenic area. Here we elected a fairly conservative governor four times in a row, while electing one of the most liberal members of the US senate at the same time.

Wisconsin politicians tend to be re-elected with little effort, right up until sentencing. The former Democrat state senate majority leader has been indicted on twenty felony counts including extortion, and will soon be indicted on federal money-laundering charges. Yet, he's still in office.

Two days ago, a Milwaukee alderman made his farewell speech to the common council, then invited supporters to join him at his sentencing hearing for fraud charges.

[Nando Aqui]

Interesting...

I lived in Indiana until 1971, and used to buy long guns and handguns without too much problem. I used to do quite a bit of shooting of all sorts and hunting as well.

In 1971, we moved to New York (Saratoga) and I was not able to even take my handhguns with me, so I left them in Indiana with my wife's family.

In 1973, we moved back to Indiana, and although I had applied and tried while in NY, I never got the necessary handgun permit there. Back in Indiana, I again enjoyed all types of shooting and purchasing firearms.

In 1977, we moved to Illinois. I purchased several firearms, including handguns, and remember getting some sort of card or permit, but it wasn't too bad. I did quite a bit of shooting and hunting there as well.

In 1982, we moved to Michigan. I checked the guns laws, and was able to take everything with me, but I really didn't do much shooting.

In 1985, we moved to Missouri. Here, I have enjoyed shooting of all sorts. Yes, I have to go to the court house to get a permit to purchase a handgun, but at least I can do so. OK with me.

You see, after my New York experience, when I was not even able to take my handguns with me, for over two years, anything else that allows me to have them is just fine.

Is there a place worse than NY for handguns?

Alex

[Atticus]

Some observations on Ohio-

I was raised in Illinois, so I really never knew about a FOID free world till many years later.

In Ohio I can't CC, but I CAN go to a gunshow (and there are a lot of them) where I can buy a used AR15 - a case of ammo- gas mask- bullet resistant vest- pepper spray -ninja sword - and auto knife, with cash, and never show an ID.

Why do we not have CCW? Here's my theory.

1) The political power bases are in the 3-C cities (Columbus, Cincinnatti, Cleveland). Those in power do not want more inner city folks carrying.
Neither do the yuppies, or their puppies.

2) A large percentage of the inner city folks who do vote, are black, churchgoing, law abiding folks who feel that the government and groups like the NAACP are their friends. They will go along with their friends- and their freinds want them to vote against, "more guns that will hurt the children".

3) Suburban and small town folks feel pretty secure. Violent crime rarely strikes close to them. They rarely travel to the places where it does. If they are truly afraid, they will carry anyway- they rarely have any interaction with the law, and don't expect to.

4) Rural folks will carry any damn way they please and will not likely be harrassed for it. They could care less what the politicians in Columbus pass or not pass.

That's my best guess anyway.

[twoblink]

If you ask Jeff White..

To quote him "We'd be a great state if you'd lend me a big enough shovel to throw Chicago out..."

It's usually the 1 or 2 cities that ruin it for the rest..

Take a look at the Bush vs. Gore chart. See where the red is and where the blue is... That tells it all...

[Nando Aqui]

I keep thinking about what Sodbuster said:

... Kids carried their shotguns to school with them so they could hunt pheasant on the way home after school. Nobody worried about firearms; it was part of daily life. That must have been great. I believe my father-in-law (RIP) could do this as well many, many years ago, in NC, and go bear hunting.

Alex

[another okie]

There are several theories about this. (By the way, you left out Kansas - no concealed carry whatsoever.)

One is that it's basically an accident - that many of these states passed a lot of progressive legislation early in this century and concealed carry laws were considered progressive at the time, and hardly any gun owners were paying attention.

Another theory is the large German influence in these states. Many German immigrants brought with them a tradition of socialism and deference to government, and a hostility to private action such as self-defense.

A third theory is the one mentioned above about gangsters in the 1920s, though many of the concealed hangun laws predate that era.

Another theory, which is really my own idea, is that these states have lots of hunters who see no need for handguns.

A related idea is that in most of these states there is a long tradition of police tolerating concealed carry by white men and using the laws as tools against blacks. Such a theory certainly fits with the fact that the first bans on concealed carry in the United States were the racist Black codes of the Reconstruction era, which applied only to former slaves.

Such tolerance of concealed carry by police was certainly the case in Oklahoma, which had no lawful concealed carry at all until the recent reforms, but the offense was an extremely minor misdemeanor. I knew many folks who routinely carried a pistol in their car and a few who routinely carried on their person and never heard of a policeman bothering any of them. Since the movers and shakers could carry, they saw no need to loosen the laws.

All of these theories can be true; they can co-exist, so you don't have to disagree with one to endorse another.

[sctman800]

Mayor Daley isa the key to eternal life, every Democrat in Chicago comes to life on election day to vote for him. Now how can you not love the guy? I read in todays paper that practly every democrat in Champaign has endorsed Barack Obama D-Chicago for U. S. Senate, this is a big backer of the "Daley gun control package" of this spring. So, Champaign-Urbana is also pretty bad but the BIG problem is still Chicago. Another problem we have in Illinois in my area, Vermilion County, is unions. I am somewhat embarassed to admit it but I am a UAW member, and a union is needed where I work. Unions push democrats, and a lot of union members don't even bother to learn who is running because they will vote democrat if it is a child molester. I do vote for pro-gun canidates, first and last, and in Illinois that includes down state Democrats, without their help the Daley package would not have been defeated. Jim.

[JCPershing]

I can speak to why Nebraska hasn't passed a CCW during the past few years. Much of the underlying stuff that has been posted above can probably apply to Nebraska. Omaha and Lincoln are hands down the largest population centers. There is an old joke that was true for decades about Memorial stadium in Lincoln became the third largest city in the state during Husker home games. I think that has changed in the past couple years, but you sure get the idea.

Omaha, by the way, has one of the longest anti-gun traditions in the nation. It isn't difficult to own a gun (long or hand) in Omaha, but there is a handgun registration. Also Omaha has had concealed prohibition longer than almost anywhere else, though the exact year escapes me now. Late 1800s if memory serves.

Despite all that, CCW bills keep getting introduced with pretty solid support in the Unicameral (another unique Nebraska feature, a one house legislature) - this last year more than half the state Senators co-sponsored the bill. But it is always killed by one man. Sen. Chambers simply refuses to consider the idea, and blocks it at every turn. He uses valid techniques even if they are sometimes terribly frustrating. Introducing scores of amendments for example, some of which would change the effective date of the bill from 2001 (to take an old example) to 3001 - that's right, just pushing it back by a millennium. Almost happened this past year, but there just weren't the votes - by ONE I think - to override his threatened filibuster, so it died.

The real irony in this is that Chambers represents one of the most crime ridden districts in the state. The people he represents need a legal means of defending themselves, and quite badly. I mention this because personally I don't think this is a persuasive argument for CCW - it is a deeper moral issue. People shouldn't have to point to a high crime rate to gain the ability to defend themselves when they do happen to run into a criminal. But in this case, the people actually CAN point to a high (relative to the rest of the state) number of crimes. His constituents actually should be screaming for CCW. Why this hasn't happened yet is a mystery to me. Perhaps we'll be able to do something about this in the future.

Other than Chambers, there is simply a large amount of apathy, or perhaps lethargy, about getting out and doing something about the issue. Very few shooters went to the hearing about CCW this year, though I know a bunch at least knew about it.

Any Nebraska shooters out there? Hello? Anyone?

John

[jame]

As a guy tht's closely tied to the agrarian life, I can tell you with question it's not the gov't dependency on agricultural subsidies. We hate the shame of it all as badly as you (and me!) hate paying for it.
I'm a farmboy from Iowa. Most farms here are huge, and the population of folks that actually recieve ag subsidies is miniscule. (The true reason for those subsidies is so complex that it requires it's own forum. Ask ANY Econ professor. There are ZERO experts in the field of Ag-economics, and very few that are truly well spoken on the subject.)

I can tell you the anti-CCW thing cooks down to just a few things:

1. The upland bird theory is true. Most folks hunt pheasant or deer, and what you can't do with an 870 isn't worth doing.
2. A thin rural population base, mixed with a heavy metro population base means liberal voting practices. (2.5 million are metro, .5 million are rural)
3. The Chicago style gangland crime thing still remains a memory for many of the +70 group, and they still vote.
4. Crime here is incredibly low.

[ReadyontheRight]

4) Rural folks will carry any damn way they please and will not likely be harrassed for it. They could care less what the politicians in Columbus pass or not pass.

Can the same be said for Urban folks? I'm not just talking the gang-bangers -- they are going to carry regardless of the law. But if you know the bad guys in your neighborhood are carrying, is it not likely that you'll carry too if you have an interest in survival? Regardless of what the politicians say.

[Atticus]

ReadyontheRight: Absolutely...and that is my personal feeling on the subject BTW... but, the urban/suburban folks have a slightly greater risk of: 1) getting caught
2) getting caught by a cop that will actually arrest you and charge you with a felony.

I carried concealed quite a lot when I lived in Illinois "several" years ago - and that was with the encouragement of several local LEO's. It was illegal then too, but we allowed common sense to rule our lives back then (Lord forgive us)!!!