Concealed carry & boats


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Franco2shoot
December 26, 2008, 07:33 PM
Ok, so I'm thinking about getting mey CC license, but really, the only place I want the afforded protection is when I'm on my 26 foot boat anchored somewhere in the Potomac. Lets say for argument's sake two situations. Situation 1 we will say the shoreline is 100 yards off and Virginia somewhere south of Quantico.

Situation 2 Still a hundred yards off shore, but this time the shoreline is Maryland, nice little cove near Mattawoman.

So what happens if the CG is cruising around asks to come aboard, and the first words outta their mouth "Are there any weapons on-board?"

I know they ask this cuz I was stopped in the water off Alexandria this summer and the first thing they wanted to know was the gun issue.

Now Alexandria is a wierd duck, since the water jurisdiction as soon as you go under the bridge is DC government. So lets exclude them and stick with the two above scenario's..

My concerns are that while a shotgun is best if you are on a fairly large vessle, a small 20ish size boat would be better served with a .38 in one's waistband.

But the legal issues may be too great to overcome, CC license or not.

KKKKFL

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Ric in Richmond
December 26, 2008, 09:23 PM
I used to live in MD many years ago and now live in Virginia.

If you are on the Potomac you are IN Maryland. All the old casinos that were "in" Virginia were on piers over the the Potomac for that very reason.

If you are in Maryland you are pretty much screwed.

I will be following this thread as I occasionally will have this issue as well. I often wonder is a shotgun might be easier to deal with than a pistol in MD.

No idea if the CG enforces or gives a damn about MD law, but I am sure their marine police would.

Thank GOD I live in Virginia now!!!

Grassman
December 27, 2008, 09:24 AM
I believe here in Texas you are allowed to open carry on a boat if you are fishing or hunting, without a ccl. If you are just out for a pleasure cruise I don't think you can unless you do have a ccl. Please correct me if I am wrong, because I am on the water a lot here.

Frog48
December 27, 2008, 10:35 AM
I believe here in Texas you are allowed to open carry on a boat if you are fishing or hunting, without a ccl.

Not exactly...

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;


In short, the Texas Penal code requires that the weapon must be relevant to the type of hunting/fishing you're doing.
You cant be out in the middle of the lake carrying while bass fishing or duck hunting, because a pistol is an illegal method to take game in these situations. However, (for example) you can carry when you're hunting and feel that being attacked by a wounded animal is a legit potential threat, such as a getting gored by a deer.

Grassman
December 28, 2008, 12:48 AM
I'm pretty scared of those alligator gar.....:what:

Frog48
December 28, 2008, 10:37 AM
Haha, fair enough. :D

JImbothefiveth
December 28, 2008, 10:46 AM
May want to double-check everything by either consulting a law book or a lawyer.

And how is it that noone has mentioned the tragic boating accident yet? :neener:

zoom6zoom
December 28, 2008, 12:47 PM
Ric has it right. For some strange reason, the state line in this case runs along the VA shoreline, not down the center of the river like you'd expect it to. As soon as you shove off, you're under MD jurisdiction. I'm told you need a MD fishing license to fish from the shore on the VA side, too, but don't know if that one is actually enforced.

ar10
December 28, 2008, 10:04 PM
I'm pretty scared of those alligator gar.....

Me too. :scrutiny::D

Grassman
December 28, 2008, 10:10 PM
My lake (Texoma) borders with Oklahoma, which 80% of the lake being in OK, would be a problem.

ar10
December 28, 2008, 10:14 PM
In Ohio, (Lake Erie), the Coast Guard patrols the Great Lakes. I had a boat and traveled from Sandusky to Pele Point(Canada), nearly every weekend for a number of years.
From what I was told by USCGS when I asked about carrying on my boat. They stated the USCG has the overall responsibility over the US side of the GL. It is not illegal to carry on your boat however, If you violate any of the State/Federal/maritime laws you would be charged with "improper use of a firearm".
Now if you cross in to Canadian waters, be prepared to loose your boat if caught. (That actually happened to a couple of boaters a few years ago).

GRIZ22
December 28, 2008, 10:50 PM
this time the shoreline is Maryland

In this scenario I would be more concerned about MD DNR Police boarding for a safety check.

MAKster
December 29, 2008, 10:20 AM
As noted the Potomac River is part of Maryland, except the section that goes through the District of Columbia. The D.C. police have their own harbor patrol. Your typical gang bangers aren't out on sailboats and I've also never heard of pirates on the Potomac so I think it is safe to go unarmed!

Franco2shoot
December 31, 2008, 09:29 AM
MAKster, That's a very poor assumption. St. Mary's county is a drug running hotspot on the water. As to the state line and the river, that came about as a result of the Civil War and the measure to give all the water to 6' of depth on the Va. side to Md.

It is a tricky legal question, since under Maritime law,(ocean) one is not allowed to arm the crew. This is the reason that the pirates are preying on Tankers, and that stupid law came about as a result of WWI treaties.

Rivers, I believe come under what they (Govmnt) refer to as Inland waterways, and the policing authorities can vary from CG (as noted on the GL) to Dept of Natural Resources as in MD. So far as I can tell its all hosed up, since DNR is most likely not boarding container ships in the Chesapeke.

Scarry still since on a 26 footer, you can have canvas enclosure all zipped up and be snug as a bug anchored in a cove and tucked away in your forward compartment when you hear someone stepping on the transom trying to gain entrance, a classic home protection scenario, but one in which a shotgun is perhaps not the best protection. It's perfect for "repel boarders" in broad daylight, but hard to maneuver in cramped spaces. So far my boat/camping has all been done on the Va. side, just to avoid potential crime areas like Md.

Interesting responses however.

KKKKFL

ar10
December 31, 2008, 10:19 AM
Scarry still since on a 26 footer, you can have canvas enclosure all zipped up and be snug as a bug anchored in a cove and tucked away in your forward compartment when you hear someone stepping on the transom trying to gain entrance, a classic home protection scenario, but one in which a shotgun is perhaps not the best protection. It's perfect for "repel boarders" in broad daylight, but hard to maneuver in cramped spaces. So far my boat/camping has all been done on the Va. side, just to avoid potential crime areas like Md.

The real kicker is what happens when you foreign controlled waters. The way around the prohibited guns,(which literally every foreign port prohibits), is you are allowed to have a shotgun on board your vessel IF it is outfitted to fire a lifeline to another boat or rescue vessel. The one I saw a couple of years ago was a Mossberg 500 stainless with an adapter that held a lifeline feeder rope. I'll let someone else figure out how they would repel boarders with it.

MAKster
December 31, 2008, 10:31 AM
Illegally carry a firearm on your boat if you wish but there is a point where the probability of being attacked is so remote that any benefit is outweighed by the legal risk. I sail on the Chesapeake and being stopped by DNR police is a regular occurance. They are usually checking to see if you have life jackets or are drunk, but things could go bad quickly if they found a firearm. The likelihood of being robbed driving to the marina is 100 times greater than the likelihood that drug smugglers are going to highjack your boat on the Potomac River or on the Chesapeake. Why would someone try to violently highjack an occupied boat anchored off shore when there are thousands of unattended boats sitting at marinas secured only by ropes? If you are in the Carribean or Baja California then robbery is a real concern but not here.

pmeisel
January 1, 2009, 09:01 AM
Coast Guard is doing a lot of stops on the Great Lakes, including basic searches if they are in the mood. "Safety inspections". Agree with MAKster.

ar10
January 1, 2009, 03:15 PM
I travel from Marblehead to Pele Point about every weekend during the "season" since 1994. I've been stopped about 5 or 6 times by CG in the US and about 9 or 10 times by the Canadians, all with the first couple of years sailing on Lake Erie. I've never had a problem, never carried a weapon on board and don't drink. As far as needing a gun I never felt I ever needed one.
After awhile they get to know you and don't bother. I do know a couple of Americans sailing in Canada did loose their boats packing a gun on board. They were stopped by Canadian CG, escorted to Pele Island, thrown in the can, and their boats impounded.

EmGeeGeorge
January 1, 2009, 03:28 PM
I wonder if the realized putting all of this detail into the story could ve gotten him into a lotta trouble if the wrong person readthe story...

from http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sp-zac9-2008nov09,0,3938126.story

Zac Sunderland, solo teen sailor, discovers perils of the high seas
Nearly halfway around the world, the Thousand Oaks resident has encountered many dangers since setting off in June. His next stop is Mauritius.
By Pete Thomas > > >
November 9, 2008
Zac Sunderland is alone on a sailboat off Indonesia, five months into a journey around the world, when he senses the worst kind of danger.

Pirates!

A large wooden vessel in the distance, rising and falling over the swells, is clearly on intercept course.

It does not show on the radar. It flies no flags. Its crew doesn't respond to radio calls. Zac alters course, the pursuers do likewise.

What's a 16-year-old to do? Zac isn't sure, so, with his heart racing, he dials home on the satellite phone.


Laurence Sunderland has just begun Sunday dinner with his wife and six other children in their Thousand Oaks home when the phone rings.

A daughter answers and Zac's shout erupts through the receiver, so his father snatches the handset and rushes into another room.

He calmly instructs Zac to load his .357-caliber pistol before announcing his plight and position on the emergency radio channel.
He then directs his son to be prepared to shoot to kill.

"It's hard to tell a 16-year-old that, but this is real life, not a video game," Sunderland says in an interview.

"I said if they have guns and they're coming to do you harm, you're going to have to shoot to kill. Otherwise you will be killed."

Halfway to history

Zac Sunderland had long since discovered that trying to become the youngest person to sail around the world alone is not child's play.

(He has until January 2010 to break a record held by David Dicks, an Australian who was 18 years, 41 days old when he accomplished the feat.)

Zac, who could not legally drive a car, had piloted the 36-foot Intrepid 5,000 miles across the Pacific Ocean during the initial leg to the Marshall Islands. He endured long windless periods as well as violent squalls and turbulent seas.

His parents were criticized for allowing their eldest son to trade a teen's normal life for such a dangerous adventure, despite his extensive sailing experience.

Zac, who says he is chasing a dream, now has 12,000 miles under his keel. He's due to arrive any day in Mauritius, off Africa, which will mark his halfway point.

But he'll have little time to celebrate.

His beleaguered boat requires extensive repairs, and the most treacherous portion of his journey -- from Mauritius to Durban, South Africa, and around the Cape of Good Hope -- lies ahead.

"It's been frustrating," he said in an interview on election day, as a disabled front sail flapped wildly in the background. "Because whenever anything goes wrong, it always happens in the middle of the night."
How long ago it must seem to the high school sophomore that he embarked from Marina del Rey on June 14, looking both heroic and naive.

Since then, he has lost weight and become hardened beyond his years. It was just four weeks ago that the presumed assailants in the 60-foot wooden boat sized him up as he sailed south of Indonesia, a reputed trouble spot.



MapWhen the boat closed to within a quarter of a mile, Zac said, without mentioning his call to his father, "I jammed some bullets into my gun and just waited."

The 6-foot, 165-pound teenager watched as the vessel, its crew hidden, swept to within 200 yards, into Intrepid's wake. It remained several minutes before changing course and motoring off.

"I'm not sure how useful it would have been if it was a boat full of pirates," Zac said, referring to a weapon he surrenders to authorities at every port. "But I didn't get to find out, so it's a good thing I guess."


Troubles mount

The journey has exacted no small toll on his parents and siblings. Costs for the largely unsponsored project have been so overwhelming that the family has set up a donation link on the Zacsunderland.com website.

Zac phones home twice a day, in mornings and evenings Southern California time, so calls at other times cause pangs of worry.

Zac's parents, who remain fiercely supportive of his ambition, will not forget the day -- as their son was negotiating the hazardous Torres Strait between Australia and Papua New Guinea -- he dropped his satellite phone into water in the sink.

It sent an erroneous signal to the phone company, relayed to the parents, which placed Intrepid's position atop a reef 120 miles off course.

They were moments from initiating a search-and-rescue mission when a message, delivered via high-frequency radio to their computer, said, "Hi mom. I'm OK."

"He was oblivious to our concerns and just happened to send that message," Laurence Sunderland said.

More recently, as Zac traveled from Darwin, Australia, toward the Cocos Keeling Islands, the Intrepid was tossed about so violently one night that its tiller arm broke.

He pieced it together with clamps but steering was difficult, even with autopilot, and when the boat jibed abruptly, the boom swung swiftly over the deck and snapped, leaving the Intrepid without a working mainsail.

It limped into Cocos Keeling, where Zac -- using his parents' credit card -- sought a carpenter to make a new tiller and fashion a sleeve around the broken boom.

His troubles worsened eight days ago, as violent winds tore part of his front sail rigging loose. He worked through the night on deck in 12-foot seas, strapped into a harness, water cascading all around, trying to furl the sail and gather its rigging.

"I've been telling my friends to pray for him because the next four days could be a long four days," Marianne Sunderland said Monday, in reference to her son's push toward Mauritius.

"It's hard because I know how tired he is. He's not eating right. He can't cook or even clean up when it's rough."

Persistent problems prompted a detour to a nearby island, further delaying his arrival at Mauritius, where his father, a shipwright, awaits with tools and a new boom.

Steady as he goes

Remarkably, when Zac was reached Tuesday evening -- Wednesday morning in the Indian Ocean -- he sounded as calm is if he were at home on the sofa.

He confessed to eating cold meals from a can, to not having energy to wash after so much work, and to missing his family, whom, with the exception of his father, he has not seen since July in Hawaii.

But he has visited so many amazing places, made so many unforgettable friends.

Sadly, he'll spend Thanksgiving and his 17th birthday, Nov. 29, hurrying to Durban, trying to beat the storm season.

What he may not know is that he'll take from Mauritius dozens of birthday presents and "a microwave cake complete with candles," his mother said.

With luck, he'll have some leisurely moments to savor them.

Thomas is a Times staff writer.

pete.thomas@latimes.com

cochise9424221
January 1, 2009, 05:06 PM
I am a MD duck hunter, the Potomac is ours. If you want to hunt it it is MD up to the high water mark on the VA shoreline. In otherwards if you are on the bank in Virginia, you are probably in Maryland.
As you know there is no REAL concealed carry in Maryland so if DNR or park police want to search you you will be screwed.

ar10
January 1, 2009, 05:38 PM
I am a MD duck hunter, the Potomac is ours. If you want to hunt it it is MD up to the high water mark on the VA shoreline. In otherwards if you are on the bank in Virginia, you are probably in Maryland.
As you know there is no REAL concealed carry in Maryland so if DNR or park police want to search you you will be screwed.

And no shoreline or river bank is static. ;)

Franco2shoot
January 1, 2009, 07:28 PM
Bottom line is it is a grey area at best, and there's no Castle doctrine or anything like it for boaters. As for the comment regarding crooks not bothering one since there are sooo many available options in Marina's... Yea, and in my neighborhood there are lots of other houses.. Most folk I have met on the water have been in the "Really Nice" category, however, I have met a few unsavory characters.

I am the first one to volunteer for a DNR/CG safety inspection, and its doubtful they are gonna toss my boat going through tool boxes to see if I have a mouse gun secreted away, but there ought to be a restriction on them, and I believe my 2nd Amendment rights ought allow me to protect my sleeping family be they In the house, or on the boat, sorta a Castle amendment for boaters.

KKKKFL

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