Robinson XCR vs Savage 10FP medium target range?


PDA






Modest Novice
December 26, 2008, 10:54 PM
Hello forum, this is my first post here & would like to thank my fellow firearms enthusiast in advanced. And for the knowledge that is displayed here on a daily basis. So thanks!

Okay, my goal is to accurately shoot targets at 300 - 600 yards. 600 yards being maximum. Mostly bench shooting at paper, or plates.

The scope set up is nothing special at this time. An older Simmons 4-12 x 50. That will go on either rifle. I doubt my novice skills will outgrow the scope set up for awhile. And would just like to have some fun.

The two rifles in question are a Robinson XCR (heavy free floating 16.5" barrel, bipod/scope & backup flip sights)

And a Savage 10FP (heavy free floating 24" barrel, bipod/scope)

From what I have read on the Savage 10FP's, It sounds like it will perform great if I do my part, but I am pretty stuck when it comes down to how a modern repeater like the XCR will perform when up against a bolt action like the Savage. Most of the time I will be shooting factory 223 Rem ammo, so I am not expecting to drive tacks. But would like to be able to consistently hit the 12x14 paper targets at the longer ranges. (500+)

I am aware both rifles will perform admirably with match ammunition, but until I move onto that, shooting factory ammo is it for awhile.

I don't usually go out and just rapid fire with firearms anymore (but it's fun) And have really started to enjoy the process of bench shooting, one well aimed round at a time. It's almost relaxing to me. Plus being outdoors is great.

I know both rifles have a different purpose by design. The Savage is geared towards accuracy, while the XCR was designed for the SCAR program, and having caliber interchangeability.

The interchangeability isn't a issue for me, but while the Savage is .223 Rem only, the XCR is is 5.56 & my understanding is, that the XCR can shoot the 5.56 & .223 Rem... That's a bonus to me.:p

So can the XCR & Savage both perform well for these tasks? Is one over the other an obvious choice for the bench shooting I do? Any help is greatly appreciated. :rolleyes:

Hope everyone had a merry Christmas.

(We say "Merry Christmas!!")

& a Happy New Year!

http://www.mettellus.com/raysavage10FP.jpg
http://www.robarm.com/Sniper-XCR-2.gif

Savage & Robinson XCR

If you enjoyed reading about "Robinson XCR vs Savage 10FP medium target range?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
gvnwst
December 26, 2008, 11:07 PM
For bench, the savage. Pistol gripped firearms are kinda hard to shoot benchrest. And the savage is probably more accurate at those ranges.

Modest Novice
December 26, 2008, 11:13 PM
gvnwst- Thanks, I forgot to mention the Savage would have the basic synth stock, not the one from HS Precision or Mcmillan. And also I'm a south paw, if that makes a bit of difference. I know Savage makes a left handed 10FP & the XCR has a case deflector.

gvnwst
December 26, 2008, 11:16 PM
Well, for a lefty, the bolt makes even more sense, you can just move your face away when you cycle it.

The stock should be fine, they are not the best, but not worse than the XCR stock, better if you are getting that folding one.

Modest Novice
December 26, 2008, 11:26 PM
I have never owned a left handed bolt, but I have always shot left handed, and used my right hand to actuate the bolt. Now having the option to own the left handed Savage 10FP.

Do you think that switching to a truly left handed bolt rifle after a few years of shooting a right handed bolt rifle, will be decremental?

I own a few right handed rifles & enjoy shooting them, but I have always wondered what I might be missing with having a left handed version :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 26, 2008, 11:30 PM
There is no question. The Savage will be far more accurate. The XCR is a fine tool for the job that it does. It's the wrong tool for long range precision hits. Or, to put it another way, that's the wrong job for it, the right tool.

Modest Novice
December 26, 2008, 11:44 PM
PremiumSauces- Thanks for the reply, You are totally right on, about the "right tool for the job" etc, etc..

What job is the XCR best at? Target competitions etc??
And at what range would it be best suited to excel in? Since the Savage's reach can exceed the accuracy of the XCR when given the moderate ranges?

Ya, I forgot to mention the XCR would be the "folding" skeleton type stock. I'm not sure how my head would rest on the stock, for a larger size rifle scope. Obviously not as well as a traditional rifle stock...

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2008, 11:48 PM
this tread is akin to asking which would be better for skeet shooting

a Ruger 10/22 or a Remington 870?

a rule of thumb is to achieve the same level of accuracy as a bolt gun with an autoloader you must spend 4x the $$$$$



What job is the XCR best at?

throwing lots and lots of lead at things the size of people in as short a time period as possible

Modest Novice
December 26, 2008, 11:56 PM
krochus- I believe the XCR is about $1600, while the Savage is $550-ish.

If the rule of thumb is correct, the XCR should be more accurate, or at least on par (?) with the Savage 10FP?

So far I am impressed with the responses regarding the choosing of the Savage over the XCR, for the 400-500 yard range :rolleyes:

gvnwst
December 26, 2008, 11:59 PM
this tread is akin to asking which would be better for skeet shooting

a Ruger 10/22 or a Remington 870?

What if it is a full auto 10/22 with birdshot in it:p

And at what range would it be best suited to excel in?

Mostly 100yd-300yd. That is the "normal" battle ranges.

If the rule of thumb is correct, the XCR should be more accurate, or at least on par (?) with the Savage 10FP?


Well, the XCR costs that much because of the things that make it reliable, not accurate. A $1600 precosion AR will probably be more accurate than the savage.

R.W.Dale
December 27, 2008, 12:01 AM
rochus- I believe the XCR is about $1600, while the Savage is $550-ish.

If the rule of thumb is correct, the XCR should be more accurate, or at least on par (?) with the Savage 10FP?

But the XCR isn't designed with the utmost accuracy in mind. But rather the utmost utility and reliability.

To turn this around wouldn't you expect a big bore dangerous game bolt action to shoot as well as a purpose built varmint AR15

Do you want the most accuracy possible betwixt these two choices or not? If so the decision is very clear cut.

Coal Dragger
December 27, 2008, 12:07 AM
If longer shot are in the cards, buy the Savage (or a Rem 700 PSS) and spend the extra money to be saved on a better scope and mounts.

Modest Novice
December 27, 2008, 12:30 AM
Coal Dragger- Ya, I am with you on new rings & new scope eventually.

So far a cheap $80 Bushnell with $20 Leopold rings are the option. Funny enough though, I am happy with the quality of the Bushnell optical clarity and 1/4 MOA adjustment increments. Like I said, even these off the shelf brands will exceed the current skills I have :uhoh:

I treat scoped rifles with respect, but don't want a days indiscretion of rugged use to cost me allot. I guess I see the cheap Bushnell's of the world sorta like the Savage's. Both perform well, albeit on a budget. Both will put out more accuracy, than I can shake a stick at :rolleyes:

But getting laughed off the range when I show up with a Savage & XCR with an $80 cheap Bushnell scope & $20 Leopold rings... Well, lets just say I have humility :p


Mostly 100yd-300yd. That is the "normal" battle ranges.

gvnwst- Thanks, 100 to 300 yards is definitely in the range I am looking for, just not for battle!

krochus- Thanks, you both are right on about the utility function of the XCR, over accuracy.

I do indeed want the accuracy I can afford from these two choices. The Savage's have come along way. And I have never liked the "pretty guns". Just the ones that work regardless of how they look. They both are ugly, but beautiful technology to me nonetheless :p

So in the 500 yard range how does the Savage perform on those 14x18 targets in question? I don't want to just get hits "just somewhere" on the paper, but actually get hits that could place it in the score circles? :confused:

John828
December 27, 2008, 01:02 AM
Edited

Modest Novice
December 27, 2008, 01:11 AM
John828- Sorry you feel that way, Shooting was a hobby I had lost interest in, but over the period of a few years, have become much more active. It's the sporting and individual right aspect that I truly respect much more now.

Yes, I ask allot of questions, I felt this was the best place to, I have always wanted to shoot at these medium ranges. With these great rifles in question. If at the time of my first posting, I could of thought of all the questions that the responses would of generated, I might not of asked them :o

But in response to Question beggar, methinks

What do you mean? :neener:

R.W.Dale
December 27, 2008, 01:28 AM
So in the 500 yard range how does the Savage perform on those 14x18 targets in question? I don't want to just get hits "just somewhere" on the paper, but actually get hits that could place it in the score circles?

It's not unrealistic to expect the Savage to shoot .5" 5shot 100yd groups with a load it likes, which should be very competitive indeed.

Modest Novice
December 27, 2008, 01:40 AM
throwing lots and lots of lead at things the size of people in as short a time period as possible
Hahaha, So ditch the scope & keep the iron sights eh? :D
It's not unrealistic to expect the Savage to shoot .5" 5shot 100yd groups with a load it likes, which should be very competitive indeed.

krochus- Thanks, I'm trying not to ask any downright stupid questions. But when you say .5"... Do you mean within "5 inches" at 500 yards? Or a "half inch" at 500 yards?

Coal Dragger
December 27, 2008, 02:02 AM
No he is talking about .5 inch groups at 100yds for five shots. Roughly 1/2 MOA. At 500 yds, assuming no wind and the load maintained that accuracy level at greater distance, that would be a group of right around 2.5 inches at 500yds.

In response to another one of your posts about being hesitant to spend more money on better optics, I will point out that your better optics also tend to be much more durable and resistant to abuse. So if you are worried about failure from hard use, you have a lot more to be worried about with your cheap glass than you do with something decent.

Then again even if you mount top notch optics on the XCR, you still have a rifle that is not really ideal for engaging targets at the ranges you would like to. That .223 is going to be giving all it has to be consistent at the 600yd line, and that is from an accurized rifle which the XCR is not.

Modest Novice
December 27, 2008, 02:30 AM
No he is talking about .5 inch groups at 100yds for five shots. Roughly 1/2 MOA. At 500 yds, assuming no wind and the load maintained that accuracy level at greater distance, that would be a group of right around 2.5 inches at 500yds. Okay, Thanks Coal Dragger! That is a butt load more than I could of hoped for! Just gotta keep at it.
Then again even if you mount top notch optics on the XCR, you still have a rifle that is not really ideal for engaging targets at the ranges you would like to. That .223 is going to be giving all it has to be consistent at the 600yd line, and that is from an accurized rifle which the XCR is not.

Coal Dragger- Thanks, that makes allot of since. I think now that the XCR would be best with iron sights. Allot of people seem to enjoy the ACOG type sights. But I could never get use to them. Rifle scopes are great, along with iron sights. I really like the Hk style diopter sights. But don't see to many options for them.

In response to another one of your posts about being hesitant to spend more money on better optics, I will point out that your better optics also tend to be much more durable and resistant to abuse. So if you are worried about failure from hard use, you have a lot more to be worried about with your cheap glass than you do with something decent.

:cuss: This is unacceptable! The more expensive scopes should break easier. This fly's in contradiction to me being cheap & defending it.:D

But thanks, I know good glass is among the most important things on a precision rifle. I won't actually try to defend my use of it.:rolleyes:

Humbly though, I am unsure if I would notice a difference after the purchase of good glass with my "novice" skills at present... Thanks to everyone who chipped in with responses to my questions.
(all except you John828:cool:)

Happy New Year to everyone!

Stay safe. And if in Phoenix AZ on New Years "wear a kevlar helmet at 11:59PM":cuss:

GTSteve03
December 27, 2008, 08:49 AM
Instead of the Robinson XCR, you might want to look at an autoloader like the Rock River Arms Varmint rifle. It's an AR15, but with a match-grade barrel and it's designed to be scoped and shot for long-range accuracy.

It would probably run about the same price as the XCR but would be more likely to match the 10FP in accuracy while giving you the autoloader capability.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/va408.gif

Modest Novice
December 27, 2008, 09:40 AM
GTSteve03- Thanks for the suggestion. That is a gorgeous rifle. I have never heard of the 223 Wylde cartridge before. I'm certain I want a 223/5.56 rifle. But I'll look into it to see if they make it in 223 as well. Thanks!

possum
December 27, 2008, 09:41 AM
i say get the savage, they are accurate, and they are realitivly inexpensive, as well it is hard to beat a bolt gun accuracy in a semi auto, it can be done sure but it normally takes alot of time and money.

CZ223
December 27, 2008, 10:23 AM
First, let me tell you a few things right up front so you can evaluate my advice. The first thing you should know is that I absolutely love Savage rifles. I truly believe that they are the most accurate out of box "production gun" being made. I own 9 of them currently. I love the 223 round as a paper puncher and varmint round and both of my Savage 12BVSS,s in that caliber will consistantly shoot sub 1/2MOA groups at 100 yards. I also have 2 ARs that are way more accurate than they ought to be. Not quite as good as the Savage but both have had plenty of 1/2 groups at 100 yards.:D

For shooting at the distances that you have mentioned, The bolt action is absolutely the better choice for the job. The 223 will work out to 600 yards, but here is the catch. If you are going to shoot at that distance very much at all you will want to be shooting heavier bullets in the 75 grain and up category. The Savages come with a 1 in 9 twist which will stabilize bullets up to about 69 grains. Don't get me wrong, these will work, but the more knowledgeable shooters will tell you that you want the heavier bullets for "bucking the wind". If the majority of your shooting will be done at the 100-300 yard range you will be well served by the 223. On a very still day you should be able to shoot some very impressive groups at the longer ranges even with the lighter bullets. If you think that most of your shooting will be done from 300 on out to 600, however, you might want to consider getting a rifle with a faster twist barrel like a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8. The other option would be to go with a heavier round like the 308. The 308 will definitely buck the wind better.

Now I have got to say that I am a little confused. You start out by choosing between a $550 rifle and a $1600 rifle. If you can afford a $1600 rifle you will be better served by a $700-$1000 rifle with a $600 piece of glass on it. If you still think you want to stick with the 223 I can highly recommend the Model 12 BVSS or the VLP. I have both and I can't say that I prefer one over the other though some like the VLP stock better. This is the laminated wood stock. You can pick one up brand new for $630-$700. There is one on Gunbroker with a day left at $630. A used one should be able to be had for around $500- $550. I have bought several of my rifles used and actually prefer buying used. You really won't like the flimsy synthetic stock on the Savage. If you think that 308 might be the better choice you go with the model 12 int that caliber or even step up to their F/TR at about $1000.

Scopes. As others have said, the right glass is equally if not more important than the rifle. For shooting out to 600 you should be thinking about glass in the 6x24 range if not higher. I have several Leupolds in 6x24 and one Nikon Monarch in the same. I can highly recommend either. Look around on the other sites as well as this one for good used Leupolds. They have a lifetime warranty and you can save a lot of money. I bought 3 6x24s last year for $400 each. They go for over $600. I sell good rifles all the time. I hardly ever will sell a good scope.:)

Last but not least. If you do get a Savage, and everyone should have at least one, you can easily change the barrel later to whatever caliber or twist you want. A 223 can quickly become a 204 (another tack driver) and a 308 can become a 243 22-250 or even a 6mmBR, no gunsmith needed.:D

GTSteve03
December 27, 2008, 10:28 AM
GTSteve03- Thanks for the suggestion. That is a gorgeous rifle. I have never heard of the 223 Wylde cartridge before. I'm certain I want a 223/5.56 rifle. But I'll look into it to see if they make it in 223 as well. Thanks!
The 223 Wylde is just a fancy name for a match-style chamber. It still shoots the 223/5.56 ammo, the same as any other AR15, however the chamber is a little tighter than standard 5.56 chambers to allow for better accuracy.

Sorry to throw another option into the mix but I thought it might be a good compromise for what you're wanting. Also, at around $1200, it would be less than the XCR by enough that you could get a nicer scope to put on it.

CZ223
December 27, 2008, 10:31 AM
It basically a hybrid chamber, modified if you want, that allows military ammo, 5.56, to be fired in what other wise would be the commercial .223 Remington. If I understand it correctly, and I may not, the military chambers are looser to feed reliably in battle conditions while the commercially chambered guns are tighter for more accuracy and as such, don't feed military ammo all that reliably. The Wylde chamber is a compromise between the two. If I have it wrong, I am sure someone will jump all over me and correct me.:D

CZ223
December 27, 2008, 10:34 AM
I'm a little long winded at times.:D

R.W.Dale
December 27, 2008, 01:25 PM
When shooting at very very small aiming points far away the superior clarity of higher end high magnification optics will be come very very evident to you.

When you have a 1" bullseye 300m away that you're trying to place the crosshairs in a certain POINT in that 1" circle you'll quickly learn the downfall of cheap scopes.

A good analogy is in this situation a cheap scope would be akin to watching "Lost" on a broadcast antanne on a stormy night. Whilst a 36x Leupold would be like watching the same program on HD digital Satellite

If you enjoyed reading about "Robinson XCR vs Savage 10FP medium target range?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!