[keederdag]

Heinlein keeps comin up here at THR, and all this discussion has lit a bulb (RARE). I seem to remember a documentary years ago that credited Robert Heinlein for Sceeming up the Star wars Idea, with the Reagan Administration. Seem's like they admitted that they never really intended to implement Star Wars; it was just Heinlein inspired propaganda to push the Russians into another competition that they could never afford. Anybody else remember this? Confirm or Deny!:confused:

[Cosmoline]

I always thought that was Larry "Ringworld" Niven. Wasn't Heinlein pretty far left? Niven, IIRC, was a conservative supporter of Reagan. But my memory is foggy.

[keederdag]

W'ell I think it was more than just Heinlein, but I don't beleive Heinlein was "left". At least in that sense; He was definitly pro-gun. I allway's read his politics as LP. I could be wrong though.:)

[Quartus]

Heinlein is pretty hard to classify as left or right. Many of his ideas are anathema to the left, like personal responsibility. OTOH, some of his ideas are anything BUT conservative.


Seem's like they admitted that they never really intended to implement Star Wars; it was just Heinlein inspired propaganda to push the Russians into another competition that they could never afford. Anybody else remember this? Confirm or Deny!

Deny - I think that's leftist propaganda intended to discredit Reagan. I have seen no credible evidence to support the idea that they never intended to deploy it.

We still should.

[Werewolf]

FWIW based on his writing and the prosletizing he blatantly did in it I'd opine that RA Heinlein is/was a LIBERTARIAN.

And before anyone flames me for the above I've read every single word the guy ever wrote that I'm aware of and enjoyed 95% of it. I agree with about 90% of it.

But that doesn't change the fact that he was a brazen prosletizing soap boxer.

[peteinct]

Hi everbody, I would not call Heinlein a Liberal. Libertarian not liberal. Read Starship Troopers (not the movie!) and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. He didn't preach that the Christian church had a monopoply on defining what was moral so might get tagged as aleftist from that. He didn't fit neatly into a Left/Right political model.

As for Star Wars, Larry Niven's sometime collaborator Jerry Pournelle was involved in starting a group that advised the Reagan administration on missle defense and space access. He didn't call it Star Wars, he called it Mutually Assured Survival as opposed to Mutual Assured Destruction.

He and Larry Niven wrote a great book called Footfall in which aliens invade. The protagonists use guns, molotov cocktails and eventually build a space ship to go and kick the aliens hind quarters.

His website is www.jerrypournelle.com

Also read his collection The Survival of Freedom

pete

[Quartus]

Read Starship Troopers (not the movie!)


Yeah, the names were the same but the content was... different.

[DRC]

As to all envolved? There were many but as to Star Wars that was a term given by...yes, you guessed it, the media. SDI was in the research stages when the liberals got a good hold on what it entailed. The problem was they didn't want it to work and believed it never would.

The Russians on the otherhand said it would never work, told everyone willing to listen to them that it was for offensive and not defensive purposes. The Russians also got it banned to R&D in the laboratory only and nothing more BECAUSE they knew it would work effectively leaving them impotent as a Super Power. Pretty good rangling on their part I might add and they had plenty of help in the liberals in this country at the time.

SDI should be implimented even now.

DRC

[gunsmith]

where is that sci fi forum I was looking for?

agents of chaos...to your scattered bodies go....we can remember it for you wholesale (total recall)

[keederdag]

Way off topic, but Pournel & Nivins Footfall is one of the best SF reads out there. Jesus, my memory sucks, but I still think the Doc. I saw was about Heinlein & SDI. Course, I also remember hearing the dude invented the waterbed:D :D :D

[F4GIB]

He's a LIBERTARIAN. Most of my libertarian friends (and I) were seriously affected by his philosophy as youth.

This is the slogan by which his characters live - "TANSTAAFL."

Figure it out and you'll know his POV.

[Art Eatman]

No way anybody could believe in personal responsibility for consequences of decisions and actions as did Heinlein, and be a Modern American Liberal. No way!

Insofar as the end of the Cold War, IMO a seminal event was the strike at the docks at Gdansk, Poland, led by Lech Walensa. That pretty well broke the power of Communism in Poland, and made Poland "unsound" insofar as the use of their military against western Europe. A politically unsound Poland lying between Russia and Germany was a real threat to Russia's threat to use the Warsaw Pact armies against NATO.

After that, it was just a matter of time and money and Reagan's policies.

Art

[Hutch]

There was a group of scientists and other influential ex-DOD guys that described a defense project called the High Frontier that put on a presentation I attended in late 1980, IIRC. The idea was a coupla years old at the time. The guy that did the pitch was a former General (can't remember if it was Army or Air Force) named Al Knight. It was a coupla years after that that I heard Reagan pitch SDI, and the concept was nearly identical to the stuff we got then. Not Heinlein, but Teller and some other cold-war hawk eggheads.

[peteinct]

Hi, Heinlein did invent the water bed or at least describe it well enough that it couldn't be patented by someone else. He had tuberculosis and spent a lot of time in hospital beds. So he thought of a different way to make them. So I guess we have more than Stranger in a Strange Land to thank him for.

Jerry pournelle was part of the Citizens Space Advisory Council. It was an outgrowth of Gen. Daniel O. Graham's High Frontiers project. I sort of remember on Pournelle's site a link to the article about Heinlein and the cold war but I can't look for it right now.

It seems to me they were all serious about SDI. It is better to have some sort of defense other than holding cities hostage to thermo nuclear weapons. Part of the idea was to shift the competition to areas in which to US could compete better and use its strength such as high tech and they are explicit about that. Also space exploration is a good thing in itself but that is a topic for another place.

pete

[riverdog]

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

[Joe Demko]

There are those in the science fiction writing community (note I said writing community, not reading) who say it has been common knowledge in writing and publishing circles for decades that Heinlein's wife wrote everything with his name on it after his "juvenile period."

Heinlein (or his wife) wrote some stuff I enjoy. A lot of the other stuff is just kind of strange or is ranting disguised as a story. Certainly there are other authors I enjoy more.

Heinlein is far from alone in being an author credited with inventing something. Arthur C. Clark is credited with inventing the artificial satellite. Gene Wolfe is an engineer, and he designed/invented lots of stuff, including the machine for making Pringles.

Niven and Pournelle have come up with some intriguing stories. Too bad they didn't hand them over to better storytellers for development.

[keederdag]

Heinlein DID invent the waterbed.... The DAG has been VALIDATED! Maybe my noodle aint so full of holes as I thought! Yea, I think I owe much of my political veiwpoint to Heinlein (or his wifey) as well. If that guy wasnt a Libertarians LIBERTARIAN, then Hitler was Churchill's Girlfriend.:D

[marvl]

It is my understanding -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that Heinlein wrote all of Shakespeare's plays. :rolleyes:

[keederdag]

Yes, as well as the Magna Carter.

[Joe Demko]

No, that was his wife.

[keederdag]

Btump, dump.....ting...:D

[MeekandMild]

Do't you remember how he said time and again what was the best way to write a book? The writer sits by the swimming pool and dictates it to a beautiful woman.

Back on topic, Heinlein may have inspired the invention of the Pez dispensor. Recall Hazel Stone's specially modified pistol in "The Rolling Stones"?

[Orthonym]

guys, and figure out how he has it indexed. When you do, you'll find that RAH was just ONE of the many guests at that famous meeting in Niven's house. There were some high-powered generals, politicians and industrialists, as well. Oh, and you know about that two-axis Libertarian political quiz? Jerry invented that one, way back in the early fifties.

Once again, The Original Blog (tm), www.jerrypournelle.com

[marvl]

Heinlein was always my favorite SF author. When I was a kid 40 years ago I bought and read everyone of his books I could get my hands on. I still have most of those acid-browned 50-cent paperbacks. I especially miss novels like "Starship Troopers" and "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress".

He did kinda get wierd near the end, though. Starting with "Time Enough For Love" his novels became a bit of a drudge.

The allegation that his wife wrote a lot of his stuff interests me. It strikes me as poppycock, however. Think about it, and apply Occam's Razor. Anybody have evidence other than 12th hand hearsay? What was his wife's background?

[Byron Quick]

Virginia Heinlein was basically the prototype for his larger than life female characters. Redhead. Double lettered in college sports. Engineer. Fluent in multiple languages including Russian. Naval officer. Much more.

A careful reading of Heinlein's entire body of work will reveal that many of his characters' belief systems are mutually contradictive. The government system in "Starship Troopers" is definitely NOT libertarian. The government "system" put in place in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" goes beyond libertarianism. It durn near goes past anarchism.

Heinlein, a libertarian? Based on the one interview he did with a libertarian...probably...if not what he described as a rational anarchist in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress." He did make the point in several places, to not mistake the beliefs of characters for the beliefs of authors.


He was a liberal at one point in his life-early on.

He enjoyed barbecuing sacred cows immensely.

[keederdag]

It's official, after much research; Heinlein was a Libertarian, he did end the Cold war, write all of shakespears play's, the Magna-carter, invent the waterbed; and must of had a huge...um....inseam to get a chick like his wife. :D

[peteinct]

Hi, It may be Dick Francis whose wife wrote his books. I've read on the net so it must be true that he offered half credit to his wife but she refused. Certainly he hasn't published anything since her death.

He writes good stories but almost none of his characters are gun owners.
pete