[Missouri Mule]

I have been asked for my opinion of the Kel-tec P11 pistol.

Since I have no experience with this pistol I thought I would ask ya'll.

This person wants an affordable 9mm para. I have recommended pistols which I am familiar with but they are too expensive for him. He has very little actual shooting experience and thinks he knows what he wants.

I like the guy but he is a little hard headed at times.

[Geech]

Honest unbiased opinions... don't exist. However, from what I've read it seems like a pretty good little pistol.

[synoptic]

try www.handgunreview.com and use their search. You may have trouble opening the page with the reviews, use the "cache" link, it usually works. I haven't heard anything bad about them, it seems most who have them find them reliable, although it may take a little work. I'm planning on getting one as my carry gun once my CHL comes in.

Edit: it seems the site has been "suspended"

[WonderNine]

They seem to be reliable as far as Kel-Tecs go, but alot of people don't like the trigger on them. Nice capacity for such a small gun. Don't know how accurate they are. Combat accurate if you can master the trigger I assume. I don't think I would ever buy one. Too big for front pocket carry and why trust your life to a Kel-Tec when you can trust it to a better gun.

[Andrew Rothman]

I was considering one. I read up on it at www.ktog.org, and it looked good on paper.

Folks there recommended a "fluff and buff" treatment for new guns. Take apart, polish feed ramp, deburr firing pin channel, deburr slide, lubricate, reassemble, etc.

I found a local guy, an instructor, as a matter of fact, who had one, and had done the work. He agreed to let me try his on his regular shootin' club night.

I shot a box of Magtech 115gr FMJ.

1) It has a lot of perceived recoil. My hand felt pretty beat up.
2) The grip is so short , your pinky just hangs out in the air (there are mags with pinky rest, but they make the grip longer).
3) That is one loooooong trigger. And not too smooth, either.
4) When firing rapidly, had 2 FTEs in one box.

Conclusion: good price, no fun to shoot, and not reliable enough.

Incidentally, he also had a Kahr (a K9, I think). It is a single stack and holds 7+1, if I recall correctly (vs. 10 in the Kel-Tec).

Compared to the Kel-Tec... well, there's no comparison. It feels nicer in the hand, recoils less, shoots straighter, nicer trigger...

And all for only three times the price. :)

I really wanted to like that gun! :(

Plenty of people swear by the reliability of their Kel-Tecs, but I remain unconvinced.

Matt

[Jim Watson]

A story of two brothers.

D. (non-enthusiast) bought a P11 for self defense. It had some random malfs that did not "break in".

His brother R. (enthusiast) did some adjusting with reference to ktog.

It now functions reliably.
It was cheap.
It is light.
It has the worst trigger pull I can think of at the moment.
It kicks.
It carries twice the ammo of a Chief's Special .38.

If he wants a pocket pistol and is willing to take the chance that it will need some tinkering (Keltec is said to have good warranty service, if he or you don't want to get into it.) it will probably do ok. If he wants something to actually shoot any more than reliability test and familiarization, this ain't it.

[Oracle]

The P-11 is a good, reliable, inexpensive, concealable pistol. It also has the crappiest trigger pull I've ever encountered. If you're looking for a good self-defense pistol, and don't mind a really heavy DAO trigger pull, then go for it. I'd either fire it or at least dry-fire it beforehand, though, to see if you can deal with the trigger.

[Minute_Of_Torso]

I had over 1000 rounds through mine. Hated the trigger (very long and heavy) but I had absolutely no failures with it and was very pleased with its accuracy at 7 - 15 yards. All-in-all I very much liked that little gun.

The only reason I don't have it any more is I gave it to a friend who couldn't afford a home defense gun.

[22/22mag]

I have had three KelTec's and all had to be returned to factory to make them work right .
2 had to be returned three times ,(they all worked fine after that).Bought a Kahr MP9 worked out of the box and shoots great, it is double the price .
It seems some KT's need extra work and they don't have great quailty control but they warrenty lifetime.

[HSMITH]

I have seen two in use and shot them. One was JUNK. It would not make half a mag without a jam. Kel-Tec had it back 3 times and it STILL won't cycle. The trigger sucked but for a belly distance gun it is useable, and can be shot reasonably well. The reliability makes it a paperweight as I just could not bring myself to throw it over the berm and forget about it.

The second one runs good, I saw it eat 200 rounds without a hiccup although I did inadvertently drop the mag during recoil a couple times. Trigger sucked but was workable just like the other.

Recoil is SHARP, ergonomics suck too. But you will not go out and shoot this gun 200 times every day. It is a backup or CCW get you out of a real jam type of gun.

I am way less than thrilled about them but if you got a good one that cycled well the size is right, the weight is right, price is not bad, and it should hide really well.

[Andrew Rothman]

Does anyone here actually advocate carrying a gun that you don't regularly practice with?

KitchenAid (I think) says, "A tool you do not love is a tool you do not use."

I would paraphrase that to "A gun you do not like to shoot you will not practice with," and, "A gun you do not practice with you should not carry."

Matt

[sm]

Honest and unbiased opinion to follow:

I wanted a "niche" gun, my gunsmith had some experience with another customer whom had been shooting a P-11 and was literally trying to tear it up. So my gunsmith got one for himself to tinker with. He figured how to smooth trigger a bit . This is normal for him to give a gun a once over and smooth triggers and ramps. Mine has been 100% reliable I really don't know the round count...probably 10k or so .

We did take a nother new one and did nothing, didn't even clean or lube, and from time to time ( if somebody thinks about it) we shoot a shot lube through it, I really don't think it has been apart except to show people how the innards work...Dirty, grungy, still running.

That said -the ones I've been around do work. I know some security guards whom use them. For me it is a "niche" gun. Honestly, I've had my fun and experimentation. I'd sell or trade for an all steel gun. Doubting I'd get much for it and the 4 mags...who knows. I'd swap even for a 3" model 13 made back when...:)

I'd go to a J frame or a model 10 2" as I've always used for a niche gun in the past. For a semi- Mr. Camp's review of the Bersa .380 sounds good.

I'm pretty good with the Keltec, spent more than one afternoon running a case through it, one day we ran it hot and hard with students about 3 cases worth. It does hold 11 rds of STHP, extra mag gives me 10 more. Mine has been 100% reliable with any and all ammo.
My mag drops free and clear for ...it's me that flubs the mag change, dummy drills... etc.,not the gun. I have taken small game with it, longest shot -52 steps, draw and shoot critter.

No -I'd go with a steel gun if it were me.

[Covey Rise]

Reliable little thing.

Problem was I cant hit ???? with that trigger pull.

[sm]

I literally wore out zoom caps. A dime on the what sight huh top of slide and dry fired all the time. I have good hand strength from the use of hand tools for so many years, but yeah...trigger sucks. I squeezed tennis balls and the like to increase.

More than one afternoon with a bucket of 9mm and 3" post-it-notes, aim small/ miss small. One thing the P-11 did do, improved my trigger control on my favorite CCWs...1911 and J/K frames. I thought I was OK before, the keltec improved. Side benefit I guess.

The critter @ 52 steps was a ground hog, half out of his hole...as Art would say..."misty" 115 gr JHP ;)

[Demon440]

I carry a p11 every day. I have over 500 rounds through it with zero problems of any kind. No fluf n buff and %100 reliable.
I think its a great starter pistol becuase it teaches you good trigger control. After shooting a P11 a 1911 will only be sweeter. I actaully dont think the trigger is that bad, its just very long, which is good becuase the pistol has no other saftys. and on top of that best custmer service in the business.

[roscoe]

I also think the trigger, long and stiff though it is, makes it a safer pistol than a Glock for a lot of people.

If your friend doesn't do too much shooting, the P11 may be a reasonable bet, since it has no external controls to think about (other than the trigger) when you have to use it under pressure. It's a bit like a revolver in that regard.

[9x19]

I have two stainless P-11s one is below s/n 9000, and the other is above s/n 38,000. They are both reliable (even without the KTOG fluff and buff), accurate and easy to carry and conceal. I have the factory trigger shoe on both, plus a steel guide rod, PT night sights and the belt clip on the carry piece.

I also have two P-32s and they are both reliable, accurate and, so far, trouble free. Once the P-3AT is available in hard chrome, I will own a pair of those as well, as my experience with KT's products have all been positive.

Good luck.

[HSMITH]

Flyer, I don't think so. The gun was sharp but not hurtful. Limpwristing is something I have never had trouble with and probably won't. My hand and wrist strength is excellent, I make a living with my hands. I have over 2000 rounds downrange in the last 30 days, was a small arms instructor in the military and have shot rifles, pistols and shotguns competitively for 15 years so I am far from a newbie. Even with the trigger on the Kel-Tec I had no problem keeping the whole magazine in a 3" group at 7 yards. If you re-read my post the other gun went over 200 rounds without a cycling hitch, over 100 were in my hand because it beat everyone else up. I was interviewing it for a carry gun, and I might have bought that one but I kept dropping the mag inadvertently and under recoil it was coming out a little ways. For me I really liked the power of the 40 in such a small gun. If someone makes one with a little better ergonomics I am ALL OVER IT!!

It dang sure was not me limpwristing it, but I can see how that is too much power in too little of a gun for most people. 9MM in a duty pistol is about the limit he can comfortably for the average guy if he told the truth......

[BevrFevr]

I can't believe I'm saying this but he could find a used ruger for not much more than a kel-tec.

I'm going to have to go wash my hands as they feel soiled after typing that.

What does he want the gun for?

A P11 has only two really strong points 1) Small 2)cheap.

Is that what he is after? If it is there ain't much competition in that area.

-bevr

[Dorrin79]

I have a P11

It is reliable with the three types of ammo I have shot in it (115 gr WWB FMJ, 124gr HydraShoks, 124gr +p EFMJ)

It has the absolute worst trigger of any gun I have ever fired, by a huge margin.

It has very high perceived recoil (lots of muzzle flip)

It is not very ergonomic.

Because of the three issues above, plus a short barrel/sight radius, it is extremely inaccurate and unpleasant to shoot.

Hence why it remains in its box until I get around to trading it towards something better.

I would NOT recommend a P11 as a first pistol. Get something like a Bersa .380 (very pleasant to shoot and accurate) and practice a lot.

[Hawkman]

The best thing you can do for the P11 trigger pull is install the optional trigger shoe. By distributing the pull over more of your finger it makes if feel lighter. Once I installed that my accuracy improved considerably.

[RON in PA]

A good idea poorly executed. A good example of getting your money's worth.

Terrible trigger and I say that as someone that shoots DA well in a S&W or Ruger.

Too light and thus extended range sesions are out as you get beat-up.

Accuracy-wise a 7 yard gun.

Not reliable once the gun had more than 2 mags through it.

My advice: For CC get a J frame Smith or Ruger SP101, for a range gun or HD any full sized auto or revolver from a major manufacturer.

[AUTIGER04]

Bad trigger But it works. Everything else about the P11 Two Thumbs up!

[ddflorida]

I just can't imagine anyone not liking the P-11, considering the price, the concealability, the dependability, and the unmatched factory service. I have 3,850 rounds through mine, so I'm very comfortable shooting it and very used to the long trigger pull. That trigger pull is, in effect, the gun's safety, and I'm glad it's the way it is. No fear carrying a round in the chamber, because there is no way that trigger is going to get accidentally pulled all the way back, especially in a pocket holster. I have had very few problems, and, if it is kept cleaned & lubed, the gun will do what it is supposed to do, time after time after time.

[mummac]

I bought a P11 because I was in the gun shop and just had to buy something. I got it more-or-less for a truck pistol that is also concealable. I went to the range expecting the worse of what I've read about it but was very pleasantly surprised. The only problems I had stemmed from shooting weak-handed, so I would attribute them to limp-ristng. I didn't think it beat me up at all. In fact, I did enjoy shooting it. I went through 200 rounds of Winchester white box and about 50 Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +Ps. I kept most rapid fire on the paper at 7 yards which satisfied me. The trigger pull is super long, but I found it easy to get used to for accurate slow fire. I don't think it's fair to compare the trigger to a double action revolver. I was really surprised how well I shot with this small of a pistol.

I like the P11 so much that I bought a P-3AT at a gun show last weekend. Now that thing beat the heck out of me. I only shot 75 rounds and walked away from it with three cuts and two blisters. It was at the end of the day though so I was fairly fatigued. I'll have to dedicate some range time solely to that pistol to form a solid opinion.

I don't know if the P11 would serve well as a first gun. I don't really see why it wouldn't though. I post all this not claiming to be an expert, but having a reasonable amount of experience with other autos and revolvers.

[jdege]

Unless I'm confusing him with someone else, it was my P11 that MPayne played with.

The Kahr he looked at was the PM9.

I can't think of anything to add to his evaluation - his opinion is much like mine, except that I never experienced the FTE's he did.

I still have the P11 - but it's the gun I keep at home. I carry the Kahr.

As for safety - the P11 has a longer and heavier trigger pull, so if you're the sort who can't keep his finger off the trigger, or who doesn't always take care to ensure that you don't catch a fold of your shirt in the trigger guard as you put your pistol in your holster, then the P11 might be safer for you. (Though if either is true, you're probably better off with a paint-ball gun - maybe red paint in your shorts will convince you to change your habits.)

Alternatively, the P11 does not have a firing pin block, and the hammer rests on the firing pin at all times - it can and will drop-fire, though it would have to be quite a distance.

The Kahrs have a striker block - the will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

[Andrew Rothman]

Unless I'm confusing him with someone else, it was my P11 that MPayne played with.
Yup, that was me. Thanks again. But you spoiled any interest I might have had in the Kel-Tec by letting me shoot the Kahr! :)

One last observation -- after shooting the Kel-Tec for 50 rounds, I was amazed how easy and accurate my Ruger P95 was to shoot! :D

Matt

[Andrew Rothman]

I can't believe I'm saying this but he could find a used ruger for not much more than a kel-tec.
Plbbbbbt. Some of us like our Rugers just fine, thanks! :p

I have shot my first 1500 rounds or so (Magtech, WWB, Wolf!!!) through my P95 with nary a problem. And it's as accurate as I am (okay, that ain't saying much!)

It's not a collector's item, or a work of art, but it fits my hand, fits my budget, fits my carry style, fits 16 rounds without a reload, and ALWAYS goes bang when you pull the trigger.

Of course, it doesn't fit in a pocket like a Kel-Tec. :)

Matt

[mummac]

Alternatively, the P11 does not have a firing pin block, and the hammer rests on the firing pin at all times - it can and will drop-fire, though it would have to be quite a distance.

The hammer isn't exposed though. Wouldn't you have to drop it on something that will fit in the slot on the back of the slide?

[jdege]

The hammer isn't exposed though. Wouldn't you have to drop it on something that will fit in the slot on the back of the slide?


You'd need to drop it hard enough that inertia would bounce the hammer back far enough that it'd come back hard enough to strike the primer.

Which would be a pretty solid whack.

I expect the P11 would pass the typical drop test. But you might want to think twice about carrying it while you're up on a ladder cleaning your gutters.

The Kahrs won't drop-fire, period.

[jdege]

One last observation -- after shooting the Kel-Tec for 50 rounds, I was amazed how easy and accurate my Ruger P95 was to shoot!


I much prefer the PM9 to the P11, it's more comfortable, more reliable, and far more acccurate.

But I find my CZ85 to be more reliable and far more accurate than my PM9, and it's more comfortable in every sense, except for actually carrying it around.

[sm]

Keltec.
We have mounted in a vise, loaded a primed case only and repeatedly whacked with a hammer, did not discharge. I mean we "Whacked". Didn't witness, but told the fellow whom has tried to tear his up loaded a primed case only , kept tossing around his property, chunked here and yonder-no discharge.

Interesting tidbit to wit, have placed muzzle hard up against a target, enough to get slightly out of battery, it fired. And we tried the shooting from a jacket pocket, fired. Trying to simulate what would occur if in contact situation.

Still gonna suggest steel wheelie for an always "niche" gun though.

[tiberius]

The p-11 will only fire when it lands muzzle down as the firing pin has to be driven into the primer via its own inertia. "Whacking" it with hammer will tell you nothing and is not recommended.

[tetchaje1]

You can get a used Smith snub-nosed revolver in 38Spl. for the same price or less and get better reliability with a far better trigger.

The RAP 401 is 9mm and goes for a little over $200, and, from what everybody has said here, is a good piece.

[mlk18]

I have had nothing but positive experiences with the Kel-Tec P11. The trigger is not near as bad as people say, unless you have weak hands or fingers. Accuracy is pretty good, but concealability and value are outstanding. I carried one as my BUG for some time, and that's the best compliment I can give it.

mlk18

[Doug S]

My P-11 had reliability problems. It had regular FTE and the take down pin popped out once during a range session. Sent it back to Kel-Tec once, but the gun still didn't function reliably. Sold it to a friend who doesn't believe that there is such a thing as a totally reliable semi-auto. It now sits in his large and mostly unused gun collection. On a postive note, I didn't think the trigger bad. I've heard mostly postive reviews on this pistol, but if you review the KTOG site there seems to be a number of P-11 posts regarding -FTE. In contrast my P-32 has been perfect (out of the box) in close to a 1000 rounds. It's hard to beat the P-32 for a carry anywhere/anytime reliable pocket auto. Two friends also have perfect out of the box P-32's so overall I think Kel-Tec makes a decent product.

[telewinz]

I bought a used P11 abour a year ago. I love it. With the factory trigger shoe installed, its a dream. I have no problem putting all 10 shots onto a 9 inch paper plate at 50 feet. Great all around CCW pistol. The P11 is the only reason I don't own a P-32, it would be too big a step down.

[Hypnogator]

I have a P-11 that I'm taking back to the factory next month for the THIRD time, because it physically b-r-o-k-e! :cuss: :fire: :cuss:

The trigger pull all but precludes accurate shooting, but many folks swear by them. Me, I swear at them. :cuss:

Regardless of what anyone tells you, the P-40 has by-and-large proven unreliable. My conversion kit never worked, after 3 trips to the factory and 2 "new" magazines. Some claim they work reliably. If you can find one, treasure it! I'd be willing to bet it won't work long. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

If your friend really wants one, I've got one for sale -- cheap! :mad:

[45crittergitter]

Mine's pretty reliable; an occasional FTC, easily solved by a push on the rear of the slide. I will eventually do the fluff & buff. Rides in front khaki/dress pants pocket easily. Fits in front jeans pocket too, but drawing is a challenge. FYI I am skinny. Pocket Concealment Systems holsters work wonders.

Regarding the inertia firing, my understanding is that it is not the hammer, but the inertia-type firing pin that generally is the culprit in a firearm where that happens. I doubt the pin in the P11 is massive enough to do that, like say a 1911. My firing pin spring is very stiff. Couple that with the hammer resting on the back, limiting the pin travel, and I doubt you will ever be able to make it inertia fire.