Intresting.... Glock Tested thread


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Runningman
December 28, 2008, 01:05 PM
http://http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=65926 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=65926)

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bluecowdawg
December 28, 2008, 03:17 PM
thats all i can say........oh, and i maybe in the market for a Glock:D

Marcus L.
December 28, 2008, 04:30 PM
Impressive, but most modern day defensive pistols using modern materials will have very similar results. I would say that the newer S&W M&P would probably last longer and handle being buried better than the Glock since it uses a better quality stainless steel slide and barrel. It also uses conventional rifling with a reduced twist rate which increases barrel life and reduces recoiling torque.

Kudos to Gaston though, he definately raised the bar for handgun durability and simplicity of design.

atblis
December 28, 2008, 07:25 PM
It also uses conventional rifling with a reduced twist rate which increases barrel life and reduces recoiling torque.

Take that quote, remove the nonsense about twist rate, and replace conventional with polygonal and....you've got what everybody's been saying regarding polygonal in comparison to conventional rifling.

357sigRog
December 28, 2008, 08:13 PM
This test just shows how durable and reliable Glocks are. I did not buy one to get on the band-wagon but because they have proven to be durable, reliable and accurate guns.

Erik
December 28, 2008, 08:25 PM
On reliability, Glocks, and 9mm Glocks in particular, have proven themselves very, very reliable with a minimal of maintenance over very, very impressive round counts.

This in an age where manufacturers typically warranty their pistols for 10,000 rounds.

FoMoGo
December 28, 2008, 08:30 PM
When I decide to bury a gun in the back yard...
I am going to make sure its a glock.


Jim

Pulse
December 28, 2008, 08:43 PM
This in an age where manufacturers typically warranty their pistols for 10,000 rounds.

just out of curiosity, who only gives a 10k round warranty?

Erik
December 31, 2008, 10:23 PM
When governmental entities (fed, state, local) purchase pistols the standard warranty range is 10,000 rounds. Glock, Sig, and H&K warranty their pitols for 10,000 to the US federal gov't, for example. Subsequently, every 10,000 rounds I turn in my pistol for a new one whether I need to or not.

Pulse
January 1, 2009, 02:11 AM
When governmental entities (fed, state, local) purchase pistols the standard warranty range is 10,000 rounds. Glock, Sig, and H&K warranty their pitols for 10,000 to the US federal gov't, for example. Subsequently, every 10,000 rounds I turn in my pistol for a new one whether I need to or not.

do you do the spring changes?
SIG for example recommends to change the recoil spring at the 6k round mark, but the biger parts like barrel or slide have a average live expectancy of 60k-70k rounds for 9mm.

do you get a production new one or is it just send back to the manufacturer for a checkout and get one that was issued to someone else and had the checkup done before?

paintballdude902
January 1, 2009, 02:23 AM
357

im not buying a glock but not because they "arent reliable" thats crap if there is one thing the glock has for sure its reliability

i dont want a glock because
1 its ugly im into perty guns (ie walnut blueing ect...)
2 i hate the triggers but i jsut dont like da triggers they bug me
3 price is outa my range for now

maybe when im older and settled down and have some money i may get a glock for carry because then its all about needing the gun to work when its needed not and actually shouldnt be seen lol

Erik
January 6, 2009, 08:11 PM
Pulse, it depends on a given federal/state/local agency and their given contracts.

I've been issued a Glocks, Sigs, and HKs over the years. I ran one past the 10,000 round mark that was replaced with a NIB pistol. I ran a lightly used pistol pistol near the 10,000 round mark that was replaced with a NIB pistol. As I understand it, sometimes they are rebuilt, sometimes they are excised to other federal/state/local agencies, and sometimes they are retired, depending on... I do not know. I do know that given the price points of the larger contracts, rebuilding is not as popular an option as it might otherwise be.

Lone_Gunman
January 6, 2009, 08:38 PM
I've been issued a Glocks, Sigs, and HKs over the years. I ran one past the 10,000 round mark that was replaced with a NIB pistol.

What government agency did you work for that let you shoot a pistol that much?

kilo729
January 6, 2009, 08:44 PM
He cleaned it after he dug it up, that's not that impressive. :/

jocko
January 6, 2009, 08:46 PM
awfully strange to SOME ANYWAY that every gun is compared to GLOCKS. not kel tecs or Bersa's.

Humm.

smoke um if you got um:neener::neener:

I certainly ain't buying the barrel life crap on glocks.

J.R.W.
January 6, 2009, 08:59 PM
I feel better about the 23C I just bought. All that really comes to mind is:

HOLY CRAP BATMAN

That gun really has proved "to hell and back reliability". I wish I had the $ and time to replicate the tests with a few other brands/platforms for comparison.

Erik
January 6, 2009, 09:27 PM
"What government agency did you work for that let you shoot a pistol that much?"

One which frowns on confirming such things on a public forum.

I've been fortunate in being able to run approximately 2500-3000 rounds a year through my primary pistol and approximately 1,000 rounds a year through my secondary pistol. And then there are the long arms...

Doc_Jude
January 6, 2009, 09:52 PM
http://www.reellifewisdom.com/files/images/007%20II_0.preview.jpg
http://www.mi6.co.uk/images/stills/cr_25_500.jpg

or perhaps...

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/raim0007/gwss1001/gijoe.jpg

maybe

http://drewklinsing.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/039_14080get-smart-posters.jpg

jon_in_wv
January 6, 2009, 09:58 PM
awfully strange to SOME ANYWAY that every gun is compared to GLOCKS. not kel tecs or Bersa's.


No, whats awefully strange is that Glock never campares themself to ANYONE. I haven't seen one of these silly torture test that was done head to head with its competition. Most if not all high quality firearms can do the same things. They feed on the ignorant who ASSUME that because Glock does it no one else can but they have never given one IOTA of evidence to support that.

ljnowell
January 6, 2009, 10:08 PM
They feed on the ignorant who ASSUME that because Glock does it no one else can but they have never given one IOTA of evidence to support that.
Actually its not the ignorant masses, the glock has been tested and proven to take the abuse. Its the other guns that have "never given one IOTA of evidence" to support that they can withstand it. I know you like to flamebait anyone that says glock so lets not ruin another thread because you saw it contains the "G" word in it.

Doc_Jude
January 6, 2009, 10:12 PM
They feed on the ignorant who ASSUME that because Glock does it no one else can but they have never given one IOTA of evidence to support that.

So... is it GLOCK'S JOB to demonstrate the average durability of THE COMPETITION???

Please.

Lone_Gunman
January 6, 2009, 10:17 PM
"What government agency did you work for that let you shoot a pistol that much?"

One which frowns on confirming such things on a public forum.

I am not sure I understand what top secret information you are giving away just by stating the name of the agency that allows that much shooting. Is it one we have heard of? Or something unknown to simple civilians?

jon_in_wv
January 6, 2009, 10:21 PM
So... is it GLOCK'S JOB to demonstrate the average durability of THE COMPETITION???


Don't be ridiculous. I"ll try to make it very simple for you. The torture tests are like Toyota driving a truck up a steep hill and then saying, "Buy OUR truck because OUR truck can drive up this hill" but the fact is that their competition could drive right up the same hill too. They rely on the fact you aren't going to have enough independent thought to put that fact together. if they were that confident about their product why not do it back to back to show the others fail when yours doesn't? The answer is that most quality handguns are capable of the same things.

Doc_Jude
January 6, 2009, 10:23 PM
I am not sure I understand what top secret information you are giving away just by stating the name of the agency that allows that much shooting. Is it one we have heard of? Or something unknown to simple civilians?

Yes, it's curious... maybe US Postal Service Super Commandos???

Doc_Jude
January 6, 2009, 10:31 PM
Don't be ridiculous. I"ll try to make it very simple for you. The torture tests are like Toyota driving a truck up a steep hill and then saying, "Buy OUR truck because OUR truck can drive up this hill" but the fact is that their competition could drive right up the same hill too. They rely on the fact you aren't going to have enough independent thought to put that fact together. if they were that confident about their product why not do it back to back to show the others fail when yours doesn't? The answer is that most quality handguns are capable of the same things.

Okay. Let me make it simpler, for the benefit of ALL, not just you.

Glock runs their product through all kinds of tests, accuracy, durability, reliability, etc. They make the outstanding results available to their marketing dept.
"Hey, look at what our product can do! Would you like to have a gun that can do this? Well then, consider buying our product!!!"

See how that works? & not nearly as passive-aggressive as your post...

WardenWolf
January 6, 2009, 10:39 PM
I don't like Glocks for numerous reasons.

1. I dislike the complete lack of a manual safety. I consider the trigger "safety" dangerous and largely defeating the purpose of having a safety because it could still allow the gun to fire if it snags something. I really don't think this type of safety should be allowed as the only device.

2. I'm not a fan of the trigger with the safety. Don't like how it feels.

3. Glocks are really only great in 9mm. At .40 and .45 they start to display some deficiencies. I prefer .45, and thus I prefer a pistol that's not Glock.

4. They're ugly, they're plastic, they're cookie cutter and WAY too common.

jon_in_wv
January 6, 2009, 10:42 PM
I'm not being passive-aggressive I called it totally straight and I thought I was being generous after your post as you tried to take mine out of context.

I understand the concept of HYPING your product. But its just that, hype. I'm trying to point out the fact that the tests are not conclusive and they are biased by the manufacturer and should not be used as a deciding factor to choose a Glock over another firearm when it isn't TESTED against the other firearm. Everyone test their firearms, do you honestly think that H&K, Sig, CZ, S&W, etc...don't?? I suppose if Glock did worse than the competition in any way they shared that too right? NO, because when you are hyping a product you don't show and HONEST evaluation you just try to make everyone think your product is better than everyone else's.

And that was for ALL not just you too, whatever that means.

Doc_Jude
January 6, 2009, 11:11 PM
The gun should be tested against IT'S USE (or abuse, in this case).
If the competition cares not, then why should Glock?
Glock does the job. Better than anyone else? Who knows, but they do the damn job & they do it WELL.

'Nuff Said.

aHFo3
January 6, 2009, 11:36 PM
How many holes do you think he had to dig until he discovered where he burried it?

jpwilly
January 6, 2009, 11:41 PM
This is dumb

ljnowell
January 6, 2009, 11:59 PM
Once ahain proving you cant say glock on here without people climbing out of the woodwork to whine and moan.

wyocarp
January 7, 2009, 12:18 AM
The answer is that most quality handguns are capable of the same things.


Why is that I've never seen torture tests on any other weapons like I've seen on Glocks?

I like shooting a lot of different weapons, but Glocks and AK's are my go to guns for the reason of reliability.

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 12:19 AM
Because your not looking. Try it and you might be surprised.

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

Wow, its just took me what, five seconds to find this one. Would you like more?

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 12:22 AM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

Here is an M&P with over 62,000 rounds shot in an endurance test.

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 12:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgjmtj9TgX8

Here is another one for a SIG. I already have an M&P and these videos prove and XD and a SIG are the best so I'm going to buy them next.

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

Are we also forgetting the Socom H&K 45?? That was torture tested too and came through with flying colors.

What about the CZ P-01? Pretty intensive testing there too.

http://www.cz-usa.com/media_releases.php?m=4&msgid=37

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 12:37 AM
The sig test is the closest thing to the torture tests listed for the glock. THe other two are ridiculous. They proved that an XD can take 20K rounds and some mud and ice. I certainly didnt see it get buried in the ground for 19 months, or drug behind a vehicle for a few miles. Big deal. There are documented glocks out there with almost 200K, probably some more. THe M&P had a CRACKED SLIDE at 62K rounds. Yeah, that really held up as well. Try again.

I am not even trying to say that the glock is better than either pistol. I am just pointing out that you havent proved anything but your own desire to flamebait anytime someone says glock.

CPshooter
January 7, 2009, 12:39 AM
I own a Glock 19, and didn't even bother looking at the OP's vid link, but I am fairly confident that my H&K USPc can take more torture than my Glock. The finish on the Glock is incredible though.

I love both, but I feel that the H&K is a more robust platform in general. I've owned a few XD's too, and they are also built very well.

Never owned a Sig or M&P, but I'd really like to buy a Sig some day. I consider them on the same level of durability/quality/shootability as my H&K, but have never laid down the cash to call one my own. M&Ps never impressed me much, but I have no real experience with owning one.

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 12:43 AM
HK:
High temp (63 C, 145 F)
Thermal shock (-46 to +63 C)
Mud bath (10 minutes exposure)
Particulate (sand) (10 minute exposure)
Freezing rain (1 hour to -46 C)
Doesnt exactly scream of extreme torture testing. Sounds like what we do to hunting shotguns here in Illinois between squirrel, rabbit, and deer season

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 12:44 AM
I own a Glock 19, and didn't even bother looking at the OP's vid link, but I am fairly confident that my H&K USPc can take more torture than my Glock. The finish on the Glock is incredible though.

I love both, but I feel that the H&K is a more robust platform in general. I've owned a few XD's too, and they are also built very well.

Never owned a Sig or M&P, but I'd really like to buy a Sig some day. I consider them on the same level of durability/quality/shootability as my H&K, but have never laid down the cash to call one my own. M&Ps never impressed me much, but I have no real experience with owning one.
I think the sigs and HKs are better firearms. Unfortunately, their price IMO more than reflects that quality. To the point that I bought a glock instead.

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 12:48 AM
and it looks like SIG and HK win.

http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/press_release_0493.shtm

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 12:58 AM
Read the date on your post, out of date by almost 5 years. I guess you were in to big of a hurry to check that.


Afghanistan: Secondary weapons of the Afghan National Police.
Australia: Armament of certain Australian police forces. All Australian police services apart from the South Australian Police and Victoria Police use Glock pistols. A special Glock 17 outfitted with a M1911-style safety was designed specifically for the Tasmania Police.[23] The Western Australia Police have standardised on the Glock 22. Glock 17s are also issued to Australian Customs officers[24] and the Glock 19 is in service with the Royal Australian Air Force.
Austria: P80 standard service pistol.[25]
Belgium: Used by Belgian police and the Belgian State Security Service.[26]
Brazil: The Federal Police Department issues all agents graduating from the National Police Academy a Glock 17 or Glock 19 or Glock 26 according to the agent's preference.
Canada: Used by various police agencies in cities such as Edmonton, Toronto and Ottawa, as well as the South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Police Service.
Ecuador: Issued to all National Police officers, as well as various special police units such as the GOE and GIR.
Finland: Used by Finnish police and border guard.
Fiji: Tactical Response Unit[27]
France: The Glock 17 is used by certain naval and parachute units of the French Army.[28]
Germany: Various special units of the German Federal Police.
Hong Kong: Special Duties Unit and G4 of the Hong Kong Police Force.
Iceland: Icelandic special forces, such as Víkingasveitin and ICRU.
India: Indian Army, special forces and Indian Police.
Indonesia: Used by Indonesian Army Kopassus, the Indonesian National Police Force and Detachment 88.
Iraq: Iraqi security forces.
Israel: Glock 17s and Glock 19s are standard service pistols in certain Israeli military and paramilitary units (Yamam, Shayetet 13, Shabak, and private security firms).
Italy: Glock 17s and Glock 19s are available to Italian special forces such as GIS, NOCS, "Col Moschin" Regiment, COMSUBIN, and to Intelligence and State Security personnel.
Latvia: The Glock 17 is the standard sidearm of the Latvian Military and police.[29]
Lithuania: The Glock 17 is the standard sidearm of the Lithuanian Armed Forces.[30]
Malaysia: Mostly used by the Royal Malaysian Navy and Royal Malaysian Police (Pasukan Gerakan Khas).
The Netherlands: Standard service pistol of the Military of the Netherlands (Glock 17)[31] and of the SWAT teams of the Dutch police (Glock 17).[32]
New Zealand: The New Zealand Police carry the Glock 17 in situations where weapons are issued.
Norway: In 1988 the Glock 17 was adopted as the Norwegian Army standard sidearm.
Pakistan: Some units of Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force use the Glock 17 and its variants as a sidearm. e.g. the PROVOST Units and Military Police.
Philippines: Used by the Philippine National Police and the National Bureau of Investigation.
Poland: Approx. 4,800 Glock 19 pistols acquired for the Polish police. The contract was awarded in 2007 and first deliveries were scheduled for October of the same year.[33]. Glock 17 pistols are the standard sidearm of the Polish Military Police and are frequently used by detectives of the Polish Police.
Romania: Used by troops on deployment and several special operations units.
Slovenia
Spain: The Guardia Civil's UEI use the Glock 17.
Sri Lanka: Sri Lanka Police.
South Korea: Glock 19 used by South Korean Army and Blue House Securities.
Sweden: The Swedish Armed Forces use two 9mm variants of the Glock – the Glock 17 and compact Glock 19, known locally as the Pistol 88 and Pistol 88B respectively.[34][35] The Swedish Customs Service as well as the Swedish Coast Guard also use Glock pistols as service weapons.[36]
United Kingdom: Users include the Specialist Firearms Command of the London Metropolitan Police Service and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
United States: The Federal Bureau of Investigation issues all agents graduating from the FBI Academy a Glock 22 or Glock 23 according to the agent's preference, as does the Department of Treasury IRS Criminal Investigation Division[37] although the Glock 17 may be issued for FBI agents tasked with overseas assignments (because of the worldwide availability of the 9x19mm round). .40 caliber Glock pistols are issued to all new agents of the Drug Enforcement Administration,[38] and the Glock 19 remains the standard issue of the Environmental Protection Agency Criminal Investigation Division. The New York City Police Department issues the Glock 19 for uniform carry as well as the Glock 26 for concealed carry to many of its officers. Kansas Highway Patrol issues Glock 21 pistols to its Troopers, chambered in the .45 ACP round.

This list doesnt even go into the number of state police, county sherriff offices, and local police depts that issue glocks in the US

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 01:18 AM
How is it out of date? Are you saying those tests or the firearms tested are obsolete now? How have any of the weapons tested, including the Glock changed in that five years. I realize it was in 2004 but are we going to discount any of the Glock tests that are a few years old? Thats really grasping at straws.

And what does your post prove? Here are some of SIGs customers.

P226

* United States
o Arizona Highway Patrol (P226, P229, P239.40 S&W)
o Alameda County Sheriff's Office in .357 SIG
o Beverly Hills Police Department
o Boca Raton, FL Police Department (P229 .40 S&W, 239)
o Chicago Heights, IL Police Department (9 mm DA/SA)
o City of Brookfield Police Department, Wi
o Dallas Police Department
o Defense Intelligence Agency
o Elizabeth, NJ Police (9mm, P226)
o Elyria, Ohio Police and SRT (P226 .40 S&W)
o Fairfax County Police Department, Virginia (P226, P228 .40 S&W)
o Federal Reserve Police Jacksonville Branch (.40 S&W)
o Flint, Michigan Police department (9mm)
o Frederick County, Maryland Sheriff's Office
o Fremont, California Police Department
o Fort Worth Police Department (.40 S&W)
o Houston Police Department (.40 S&W)
o U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
o Lansing, IL Police Department
o Lawrence, KS Police Department
o Massachusetts Department of Correction (Sig Pro 2340 .40 S&W)
o Massachusetts State Police (P226 DAK, .40 S&W)
o Michigan State Police (.40 S&W, DA/SA)
o Nassau County Police Department, Long Island, N.Y.
o United States Navy SEALs (P226 Navy under the designation of Mk 24 Mod 0)
o New York City Police Department (NYPD) P226 9 mm DAO (NYPD does not issue sidearms; officers can choose between a P226 DAO, S&W 5946 or Glock 19 and pay for it with their own funds)
o Ohio State Highway Patrol (.40 S&W)
o Oklahoma Highway Patrol (.357 SIG)
o Opelika Police Department (.40 SIG P226)
o Rhode Island State Police (P226 DAK, .357 SIG)
o Sacramento Police Department
o San Francisco Police Department (in .40 S&W)
o San Joaquin County Sheriff's Office (.40 S&W)
o San Jose Police Department
o Seminole County, Florida Sheriff's Office (.357 Sig DAK)
o Texas Highway Patrol (.357 Sig DAK)
o Texas Rangers
o University of San Francisco Department of Public Safety
o Virginia State Police (P229 .357sig)
o Whitehall, Ohio Police Department (.40 S&W 9 mm)
* Germany
o Berlin Spezialeinsatzkommando
* United Kingdom
o British Armed Forces under the designation L105A1
o British Armed police
* Canada
o Canadian Forces.
o Nova Scotia Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officers
o Ontario Provincial Police
o CN Railway Police
o Royal Canadian Mounted Police
o Royal Newfoundland Constabulary
o Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officers (.40 S&W)
o Vancouver Police Department
* Finland
o Finnish Army
* India
o Indian Army
o Parachute Regiment (India)
o MARCOS (India)
o National Security Guards
* Ireland
o Emergency Response Unit (Garda)
o Irish Army Rangers
* Iran
o Adopted it for use under license by Defense Industries Organization as the ZOAF and, currently, as the PC9 pistol
* Iraq
o Kurdish Special Forces
o MNF-I
* Indonesia
o Gegana
o Denjaka
o Detasemen Bravo
o Kopaska
o Kopassus
* Israel
o Sayeret Duvdevan
* Japan
o Special Assault Team
o Japan Ground Self-Defense Force & Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force as Minebea P9.
* Mexico
o The Mexican Army uses the P226 Tactical
o The Mexican Marine Corps use the P226
* Malaysia
o 10 Paratrooper Brigade
o Grup Gerak Khas
o General Operations Forces
* New Zealand
o New Zealand Army
* Poland
o Polish Navy (GSP FORMOZA)
* Philippines
o Philippine National Police
o National Intelligence Coordinating Agency
* Slovenia
o Slovenian Army (ESD - Special Forces)
* Singapore
o Singapore Armed Forces
* Spain
o Grupo Especial de Operaciones (GEO)
* Sweden
o Swedish Police
* Venezuela
o Fuerza Armada Nacional

[edit] P228

* Albania
o RENEA
* United Kingdom
o SAS
* Canada
o Service de police de la Ville de Laval
* France
o GIGN
* Japan
o Special Assault Team
o Special Security Team
* Malaysia
o General Operations Forces
* Sweden
o Swedish Police
* United States
o United States Navy SEALs (Under designation as the M11)[6]
o United States Army Criminal Investigation Command
o National Park Service
o United States Naval Criminal Investigation Service
o United States Navy, Naval Aviation
o United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations
o Nassau County Police Department
o New Jersey State Police
o Jackson, NJ Police Department
o Delta Force (1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta)
o Task Force 11
o Federal Bureau of Prisons, Special Operations Response Team (SORT)
* United Arab Emirates
o Abu Dhabi Police
o Abu Dhabi Police SWAT Team
o UAE Special Forces
o UAE Army
o Dubai Police SWAT Team

[edit] P229

* United Kingdom
o British Armed Forces (L117A2)
o MOD Police
* United States
o Essex County, NJ Sheriff's Department (.40 S&W)
o Fairfax County, Virginia Police Department (P226, P229, .40 S&W)
o Newark, NJ Police Department (.40 S&W)
o Nevada Highway Patrol (.40 S&W)
o United States Naval Criminal Investigation Service (P229 DAK, .40 S&W)
o Anne Arundel County Police Department (.40 S&W)
o Connecticut State Police (.40 S&W)
o Gulfport, Florida Police Department (P229 DAK, .40 S&W)
o Houston Police Department
o Lubbock Police Department (.40 S&W)
o North Carolina State Highway Patrol (P229 DAK, .357 SIG)
o San Diego Police Department (P229R, 9MM)
o Independence, Mo. Police Dept. (.357 Sig)
o St. Louis County Police Department (.40 S&W)
o Rutherford County, Tennessee Sheriff's Department (.40 S&W)
o Virginia State Police (P229 DAK, .357 SIG)
o Vermont State Police (P229 DAK, .40 S&W, carried with an issued, underlug-mounted Surefire X200 light)
o Wilmington, Delaware Probation & Parole (.40 S&W)
o United States Department of Homeland Security
+ Federal Air Marshal Service (.357 SIG)
+ United States Coast Guard (P229 DAK, .40 S&W)
+ Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) (P229 DAK, .40 S&W)
+ United States Secret Service (.357 SIG)
o United States Department of State - Diplomatic Security Service (P229 Rail, 9 mm)
o Federal Reserve Police (.40 S&W) May have used. Federal Reserve (Federal Protection) are now seen with the S&W M&P (.40)
o United States Postal Inspectors (P229R DAK, .40 S&W)
o Memphis Police Department (.40 S&W)
o Allegheny County, Pennsylvania Police Department, (DAO, .40 S&W)
o Texas Highway Patrol (.357 Sig)
o Fayette County, GA Sheriff's Department
o Warren County, NJ Sheriff's Department

Once again you have nothing but hype and insults to offer and nothing substantial. You act like I just slapped the kool-aid out of your hand.

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 01:45 AM
Once again you have nothing but hype and insults to offer and nothing substantial. You act like I just slapped the kool-aid out of your hand

More flamebait. Your typical posting style. Go ahead and quote me where i insulted you, I will apologize.

Your list is no more impressive than any others. In fact, if I were to list glocks by model, as you did with sigs, it would be a huge list.

I have never said that glocks were supreme, in fact I said the opposite.
I think the sigs and HKs are better firearms.
Who said that, OH YEAH, it was me. You cant label me as a koolaid drinker, as much as you would like too.

Go ahead, post some more inflammatory material, try to get people to argue with you. Everyone here recognizes you for what you are.

Doc_Jude
January 7, 2009, 02:00 AM
Because your not looking. Try it and you might be surprised.

http://springfield-armory.primediaou.../SPstory11.php

Wow, its just took me what, five seconds to find this one. Would you like more?

Funny. I found this on your link...


Conclusion
Damned impressive. Of course the Glock (and other guns, as well) should be able to handle this kind of abuse. The point of this test wasn't to diminish any existing brand but to get a picture of the capabilities of the XD, which is a relatively new product.

It would seem that the author got the point, why can't you????

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 02:09 AM
It would seem that the author got the point, why can't you????

Dont bother, you are just fanning the flamebait.

Doc_Jude
January 7, 2009, 02:12 AM
****ANYTHING YOU HAVE SAID****

Very healthy (and realistic) attitude. Me like.

Zach S
January 7, 2009, 02:25 AM
IMO, the best thing about glock is the finish. I wish they'd refinish my 1911s. I wouldn't think twice about burying one in my back yard, if it had the same finish as my glock.

That gun really has proved "to hell and back reliability"Funny you use the SIG slogan. I've seen a broken example from most of the firearms manufactures. However, I've never seen a broken SIG. They're like ten second Hondas. I've heard about them online, and I do know they exist, but I've never actually seen one.

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 02:33 AM
IMO, the best thing about glock is the finish. I wish they'd refinish my 1911s. I wouldn't think twice about burying one in my back yard, if it had the same finish as my glock.


Quote:
That gun really has proved "to hell and back reliability"

Funny you use the SIG slogan. I've seen a broken example from most of the firearms manufactures. However, I've never seen a broken SIG. They're like ten second Hondas. I've heard about them online, and I do know they exist, but I've never actually seen one.

The tennifer treatment is great. I must say though, I dont care much for the early glock finish, the dull look. The later glocks have the semi-gloss finish that looks a lot better.

I agree on the sigs, fine guns.

Doc_Jude
January 7, 2009, 02:49 AM
Dont bother, you are just fanning the flamebait.

I just keep imagining someone who mouthed off to a cop and got pistol-whipped with a Glock & now they're on a crusade.... it's just such a funny image.

Oh well. I like my Glocks. Plenty of REAL shooters like them (Suarez, Ayoob, Boatman just for starters) but others would lump them in with "Lemming-like Glock Advocates". Very, very foolish. They're accurate, very durable and serviceable, & great for the price when compared to HK, SigSauer, & the like. Great, great guns.

YMMV ^_^

CPshooter
January 7, 2009, 04:53 AM
I think the sigs and HKs are better firearms. Unfortunately, their price IMO more than reflects that quality. To the point that I bought a glock instead.I see where you're coming from. The $250 dollar price difference makes the Glock that much more attractive over an H&K or Sig, but in the end it's hard to argue with an H&K or Sig's superb build-quality and fit/finish properties. The first time I picked up an H&K and a Sig, I shot them MUCH more accurately than I ever could with my Glocks. Funny thing is I really like the Glock trigger system, but just don't shoot it all that well...maybe it's the grip angle?? Who knows? Either way, I'll always have my g19 and g26 in my collection of handguns. I'll pass on all the other models, though. That is, unless they release a 20SF this year (fingers crossed:)I'd looooove to have one in OD green as a dedicated 10mm woods gun!)

I love how jon in wv listed all those Sigs by caliber to extend the list. Haha! He does make a decent point, however, when he says that a 4 year old test shouldn't be considered obsolete. There haven't been any real changes in the way the guns related to this discussion have been manufactured in the last 5 years as far as I know.

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 08:46 AM
I have let several Glock owners shoot my M&P on the range and everyone of them shot better with my M&P than they did their Glock. They all commented on that fact. One of them sold his Glock right after that.

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 09:23 AM
I have let several Glock owners shoot my M&P on the range and everyone of them shot better with my M&P than they did their Glock.

What do you mean exactly by "everyone of them shot better"?

If what you mean is that their groups tightened up a little bit while shooting at static targets, are you really sure that even matters in a real world situation?

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 10:24 AM
Does it help if I say "every one" of them shot better with my M&P? That is pretty self explanatory. Same shooter, better groups, the convention methods of determining better shooting were applied and the shooters themselves remarked they did in fact shoot better with the M&P. Its not so hard to believe for me, I shot their Glocks and while I found the trigger crisper and shorter it took a lot more concentration to shoot as well with the Glock as my M&P.

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 11:36 AM
Is there any way to quantitate "better"? Thats all am I asking. For example, if they were shooting 3" groups with a Glock, and then 2" groups with your M&P, I would say that although that is better, it might be of no practical concern in an actual confrontation.

greyeyezz
January 7, 2009, 12:10 PM
He cleaned it after he dug it up, that's not that impressive. :/

This is before he buried it,

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 01:56 PM
You say in a confrontation it MIGHT not be important but there are a lot of other things that MIGHT not be important either. Do you ignore them also? If so, what are those things? I want to know if I'm wasting all my time practicing and doing drills on the range when you seem to know what will be more important in a confrontation. Personally, I think proficiency with your weapon and the ability to shoot naturally and accurately are valuable traits and worthy of note. Recently I have started to transition to a HK P7 as my carry gun. It points naturally and shoots even more accurately than my M&P. Is it likely I will NEED that extra accuracy? Maybe not but why would I not seek every advantage I can? What if I miss my target by an inch? Wouldn't have the weapon I shoot more accurately have given me an advantage?

JohnBT
January 7, 2009, 02:27 PM
This is great info. Now I know what to buy if I ever decide to bury a gun in the dirt and leave it for a year or two. You know, or freeze one in water in the refrigerator. Maybe I should freeze it in Kool-Aid. ;)

John

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 02:57 PM
You say in a confrontation it MIGHT not be important but there are a lot of other things that MIGHT not be important either.

I agree that I want an accurate gun too, but my point is that in a fight, I don't think it is going to matter much whether your gun shoots a 1" or a 2" group at 25 yds. There are much more important factors involved that slight differences in accuracy.

It sounds like you have a very accurate gun, but that does not mean all M&Ps are that accurate, and I suspect I could find a Glock that shoots just as well as any one particular M&P. I know I have shot Glocks that would shoot 1-2" groups at 25 yds, and some that would only do 3-4" groups. It is difficult if not impossible to draw conclusions about the accuracy of a particular model based on examination of one specimen.

Erik
January 7, 2009, 02:57 PM
"I am not sure I understand what top secret information you are giving away just by stating the name of the agency that allows that much shooting. Is it one we have heard of? Or something unknown to simple civilians?"

I'm not allowed. It is what it is. It is more and more prevalent, policy wise, at the federal level; and at the state and local levels, from what my peers there have indicated. Sorry. I can confirm, however, that it is an agency most everyone would recognize.

Boats
January 7, 2009, 03:00 PM
This is one of the dumbest threads I've read in years. Good job everyone.:rolleyes:

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 03:01 PM
I'm not allowed.

Not allowed to do what exactly? State the name of the agency you work for? Are you a covert operator?

nutter
January 7, 2009, 03:03 PM
Its pretty amazing to me that something which is basically a "Damn! That's pretty cool!" situation can be turned into an argument.

http://blogs.technet.com/photos/gray_knowlton/images/2998979/original.aspx

Erik
January 7, 2009, 03:04 PM
"Not allowed to do what exactly?"

Not allowed to confirm who I work for online. Besides, really, it is not important. I shoot a given number of rounds, and have an understanding of the standard government contract for Glock, Sig, and HK, which somewhere along the lines I thought might have been of interest to folks. Take nothing more or less from it.

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 03:06 PM
Not allowed to confirm who I work for online. Besides, really, it is not important.

I would have to disagree that its not important. I think a fair number of people might suspect you don't have the credentials you claim. I think the problem is that no one has ever heard of a job where you would likely shoot as much as you claim. I guess its because its so secret.

Erik
January 7, 2009, 03:10 PM
Another interesting tidbit:

There are two government owned ISO 9000 rated (I believe that is what they are- could be mistaken) firearms laboratories, both who which further verify their results with a third independent ISO 9000 rated laboratory. One has declared several Glocks their favored pistols for general issue, the other several HK and several Sigs their favored pistoled for general issue. Which is why the majority of federal holsters are filled by those three.

___

LG,
Then we will have to disagree, and I do not care what you think about my credentials or what you think I've claimed. My claim: I'm a federal LEO who shoots an amount most don't consider "a lot." Funny, many folks love to point out how LEOs don't shoot enough, despite shooting more than most gun owners if not enthusiasts, but when a LEO comes along who shoots more than many enthusiasts it is some kind of suspect event. Questions are raised, fair enough, but the response is not accepted so therefor it must not be true. After all, nobody tells you what you can say about yourself, right? Good for you. Someone tells me what I can say about myself. Again, it is what it is.

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 03:29 PM
No problem Erik, I guess my point is that no one takes you seriously.

Erik
January 7, 2009, 03:33 PM
Oh, and everybody at my office shoots through their primary pistols at least 1500 rounds a year, 400 of which are for purposes of qualification and the remainder in training, or they don't carry them. Their firearms instructor won't certify them otherwise; that would be me.

Most have secondary pistols, mostly j-frames, and average approximately 500 rounds through them; same rules as above. The guy with the semi-auto's round count is a bit higher, in that he opts to switch between in and his primary for general training; good for him.

And then there are the long guns...

They can ask for approximately 200 rounds of pistol ammunition per quarter for additional practice. Most opt for that option, practice, and it shows. They make it easy to be their firearms instructor.

I'll let them know some folks don't believe it; they won't care either.
---

Hey! We shoot less than the state and local SWAT teams we integrate with on occasions. A lot less. And come to think of it, a few of our federal counterparts, too. Does that fit better with your idea of how much we should shoot?

---

OH NO! No one takes me seriously! What ever will I do?

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 03:40 PM
Wont you get in trouble with your coworkers for posting this on the internet?

jocko
January 7, 2009, 03:56 PM
I am wrong most allthe glocks tests of torture and burying are by private people not glocks.

I don't see sigs, hks. smith or other "proud" owners doing this to their guns. Not that they will not survive it but why hasn't someone come forward with their torture test on their hk's sigs, smiths etc. Prove it guys.....

Not sure these torture tests are closed only to glocks .

Course I will not bury my good guns to prove a point but some have and they have certainly proven some points of durability.

Doesn't make a glock any better gun than a sig, hk or any other gun if they are all taken care of but no doubt they are the gun that all are compared to and that to me is big kuddos to glocks...

22lr
January 7, 2009, 04:01 PM
It doesn't count if you have to replace parts. Any gun can sit in the ground for a few year, but you still are going to replace springs and stuff. I'm unimpressed to say the least ive seen many guns in worse shape become usable again after a good cleaning and springs replaced.

Ill gladly torture test my S&W if someone wants to fund it.

jocko
January 7, 2009, 04:03 PM
I have a M& P completly reworked by Dave bowie and it is dead nuts accurate. At first out of the box, it was the most horrible trigger system one could imagine. He made this gun dance for me.

Then I bought a G19, just because I like um. Sent it off to Accurate-Iron for a complete work over including dawson fiber optic adjustable sites . Never thinking this gun could compare to the M & P (which is basicaly a single action semi) but this G19 is just drop dead accurate as hell. I shoot it better than my M& P, and I am 65 and I never claim to be a good shooter but this G19 makes a liar out of me.

so my point is both are dead accurate but one for me is more accurate.

LTB15J
January 7, 2009, 04:14 PM
I don't see sigs, hks. smith or other "proud" owners doing this to their guns. Not that they will not survive it but why hasn't someone come forward with their torture test on their hk's sigs, smiths etc. Prove it guys.....



lol. it is amusing you say "not that they will not survive" but then you imply they wont.. by challenging people to prove it. okay then


http://web.me.com/timetravelfoundation/The_LAMP/PROJECT%3A_Break_my_P2000/Entries/2007/1/6_The_beginning_of_the_end_for_a_P2000.html




http://web.me.com/timetravelfoundation/The_LAMP/PROJECT%3A_BREAK_MY_HK45/Entries/2007/11/17_Where_Have_All_the_Good_Writers_Gone.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpl0ZJkikNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgjmtj9TgX8&feature=related


thats with, oh i dunno, 45 seconds worth of searching.

jocko
January 7, 2009, 04:19 PM
damn I just love it when glocks owners knock sig, and vice versa or hk owner do the same thing. almost like "my dad can beat up ur dad" type stuff.

Just goes to show for me anyway that glock, sig, hk owners will defend their turf and for that kudos to all of you'se. I feel that way about certain brand myself.

I won't bury any gun to prove a point, all I want is dead bang reliability..

Erik
January 7, 2009, 04:29 PM
"Wont you get in trouble with your coworkers for posting this on the internet?"

No, because after all I have not and will not confirm mine and their employer.

Look, you don't buy my line of reasoning. Fine. You seem to reject it outright, as if I'm the only LEO on this forum and the net who posts vagueries about the details of their positions and employers. Fine. (There's a reason for that, but you reject it.) You've gone so far as to disparage me for whatever reason. Fine. I'll not thread drift further on the subject.


---

As for why Glock one one ISO 9000 rated round of tests and Sig and HK tied to win the other, I cannot say, as those facts are closely guarded for whatever reason(s). I submit they should not be because of how many agencies and people rely on the conclusions of test criteria they know little if nothing about.

For example, if you insist on hammer fired pistols, fine, but explain why. Better yet, conduct comparisons against striker fired pistols regardless and put the information out there, having to justify the decision making process. And vise versa, etc, whatever the criteria and scenario might be.

jon_in_wv
January 7, 2009, 05:47 PM
listen guys as a government worker myself I understand completely why Erik doesn't want to identify who he works for. Its not about some childish secret squirrel nonsense its the simple fact that if you are posting on these boards using you credentials as a government employee to give yourself credibility than you are in fact acting as a spokesman for your company. Its like showing up in uniform for a campaign rally. It may not seem like a big deal to you guys but the Feds can and will discipline you for misuse of your position for things like that. Erik is just another member of the board and I think his opinion should be respected just like the opinion of anyone else. Its funny that usually the people screaming for others credentials likely don't have any of their own. SOOO why don't we just take each others opinions for what it is worth and show each other a little respect.

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 06:40 PM
SOOO why don't we just take each others opinions for what it is worth and show each other a little respect.

Gee, if thats not irony. Didnt you start all the crap in the this thread? You surely didnt show the OP that same respect. I'm sure he didnt want his thread to degrade into this.

SCBradley
January 7, 2009, 07:44 PM
I didn't read the OP or look at the link provided and nor do I intend to. I've only come here to tell you that my M&P can take anything a GLOCK can take and more.

Anytime I hear anyone say anything positive about GLOCK pistols, I feel it's my civic duty to shame them thoroughly and completely.

Everyone I have let shoot my M&P, from experienced shooters to the neighborhood children , have without fail shot sub-moa at ranges that would boggle the mind of GLOCK shooters.

Furthermore, any GLOCK owners who I have let touch my M&P with their filthy hands, have immediately torch cut their GLOCKS rather than sell them. They made that sacrifice so that no one else will make the same pathetic mistake that they did.

Have you even seen the super cool squiggly slide serrations on the M&P? HAVE YOU?

I rest my case.

Lone_Gunman
January 7, 2009, 08:32 PM
listen guys as a government worker myself I understand completely why Erik doesn't want to identify who he works for.

I understand where you are coming from. My point is that you shouldn't use your status as a credential to lend legitimacy to your viewpoint, it you aren't able to back it up. He may well be what he says, but what is the point of claiming it on the internet?

But I will drop the issue. I really wasnt trying to start anything, and didnt mean to disrespect anyone. Glock threads seem to bring out the worst in all of us.

Rodentman
January 7, 2009, 08:48 PM
I am researching whether to buy a Glock 19, an HK USP or HK P2000. Now I am really confused.

I CAN say that I have a Sig P229 in .357 Sig and like it a lot. Looking for a 9mm now...

muddywatters
January 7, 2009, 08:50 PM
Must have been sleeping soundly with my Glock 17 close by. Thanks for posting.

porterdog
January 7, 2009, 08:53 PM
Meet. The. Gun.

ljnowell
January 7, 2009, 09:27 PM
I didn't read the OP or look at the link provided and nor do I intend to. I've only come here to tell you that my M&P can take anything a GLOCK can take and more.

Anytime I hear anyone say anything positive about GLOCK pistols, I feel it's my civic duty to shame them thoroughly and completely.

Everyone I have let shoot my M&P, from experienced shooters to the neighborhood children , have without fail shot sub-moa at ranges that would boggle the mind of GLOCK shooters.

Furthermore, any GLOCK owners who I have let touch my M&P with their filthy hands, have immediately torch cut their GLOCKS rather than sell them. They made that sacrifice so that no one else will make the same pathetic mistake that they did.

Have you even seen the super cool squiggly slide serrations on the M&P? HAVE YOU?

I rest my case.

That right there is some funny stuff. Did you know that M&Ps are made of unobtanium? Its a rare precious metal that can only be made by feeding stainless steel and depleted uranium to a goat and then harvesting it from its colon 13.7 years later.

gglass
January 7, 2009, 09:35 PM
Even after seeing that, I still do not regret my decision to sell my two Glocks in favor of my M&P 40 FS and M&P 9c. I still regard this to be the best firearm decision of my life.

Everyone has heard by now the differences in the two brands, so I won't go down that road. If you have been in a cave for the last couple of years and haven't had a chance to hold or fire a M&P semi-auto, you owe it to yourself to do it. I cannot think of one LEO who has made the switch from a Glock to an M&P who hasn't seen an immediate improvement in qualifying scores.

Smith & Wesson was aiming squarely at Glock when they designed the M&P, and by most accounts they overshot the mark.

conw
January 7, 2009, 09:40 PM
http://blog.dreamhost.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/serious.jpg

Doc_Jude
January 7, 2009, 10:11 PM
This is great info. Now I know what to buy if I ever decide to bury a gun in the dirt and leave it for a year or two. You know, or freeze one in water in the refrigerator. Maybe I should freeze it in Kool-Aid.

Dude! Glock-cicle!

SCBradley
January 7, 2009, 10:19 PM
gglass said:

Even after seeing that, I still do not regret my decision to sell my two Glocks in favor of my M&P 40 FS and M&P 9c. I still regard this to be the best firearm decision of my life.

I know exactly how you feel. I consider my decision to go to the M&P to be the high point of my life, with the birth of my children a close second.

I love my children, but not as much as I hate Glocks.

gglass also said:

If you have been in a cave for the last couple of years and haven't had a chance to hold or fire a M&P semi-auto, you owe it to yourself to do it.

Not only to yourself, but to America. Unless you hate America.

hags
January 7, 2009, 10:33 PM
conwict,

I laughed out loud when I saw that picture.

Yeah, M&P versus Glock, whatever works for you. I like the made in the U.S.A. angle. Although I'm not used to an American firearms product that stands up favorably to what the rest of the world has to offer!!!

....and remember, arguing with someone online is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still a ******.:D

ljnowell
January 8, 2009, 01:46 AM
Yeah, M&P versus Glock, whatever works for you.
Thats what it is about. The current class of polymer wonder guns are almost all the same as far as reliability, function, and accuracy. Its just a matter of personal opinion and preference. The problem is too many people around here cant seperate the opinion from fact.

conw
January 8, 2009, 01:22 PM
What I wonder is if people who argue so rabidly about the marketing tactics, grip angles, rifling, and other relative minutiae of Brand X and Brand Y come anywhere close to pushing the limits of any gun they own.

Sure, regardless of skill and competence and experience one wants the best gun fit and best gun for the buck. That provides an edge, providing you can come close to hitting what you aim at.

But extensive arguments about said minutiae, to me, have an air of pomposity that implies the speakers have no more work to do, that they've "arrived" at an elite skill level, and frankly I'm tired of the preaching even if that's so.

hags
January 8, 2009, 01:44 PM
What I wonder is if people who argue so rabidly about the marketing tactics, grip angles, rifling, and other relative minutiae of Brand X and Brand Y come anywhere close to pushing the limits of any gun they own.

Sure, regardless of skill and competence and experience one wants the best gun fit and best gun for the buck. That provides an edge, providing you can come close to hitting what you aim at.

But extensive arguments about said minutiae, to me, have an air of pomposity that implies the speakers have no more work to do, that they've "arrived" at an elite skill level, and frankly I'm tired of the preaching even if that's so.

STOP MAKING SENSE, PLEASE!!!

That's not what this is all about, my gun is better than your's and my choice is more informed than their's.
Listen, do what I say and buy brand X because it meets the criteria that I set forth in my head. I may not have experience with said gun but "on paper" it looks/sounds/seems good.

jon_in_wv
January 9, 2009, 06:05 PM
Conwict, I agree with you completely. One thing that is COMPLETELY overlooked in the Glcok vs the world discussion is the simple matter of "fit". Some guns just don't fit you well. Even if two guns have equal mechanical accuracy its entirely possible that one might fit you or your hand better and allow you to shoot better with it. On of the first things I do with a pistol is close my eyes, bring it up to eye level and aim at an imaginary object. When I open my eyes I see where the gun is pointed. The Glock with its steep grip angle invariably aims high (not so much with the compact but the full size). I can point at things all day with my P7 and when I check the sights they are spot on. It is incredibly suited to my hand. The same with my M&P. I've shot steel frame Smiths in the past that were very mechanically accurate but when I shot with them I just couldn't seem to hit where I was aiming or it took a lot of effort to hit where I wanted. A gun that suits you, is pointable, and fits your hand is going to allow you to shoot better with less effort than one that doesn't.

oneounceload
January 9, 2009, 06:28 PM
WOW...this seems to be a complete waste of bandwidth......

jon_in_wv
January 11, 2009, 09:37 AM
and your post was more productive how????

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