I sold an Ar15 upper to someone in CA...


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FullEffect1911
December 28, 2008, 08:45 PM
Hi,

I sold an AR15 upper to someone through Gun Broker, the auction ended and I found out the buyer is located in California. I know CA has some pretty bad laws, so I would like to find out if everything will be legal.

The Upper is a flat top, 20 in barrel with a bayonet lug and removable A2 flash hider.

Is this legal to sell to him?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn252/fulleffect1911/IMG_0677.jpg

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TAB
December 28, 2008, 09:52 PM
I live in CA, and I would not do it. your not breaking any laws.

4v50 Gary
December 28, 2008, 09:56 PM
You're not selling a complete gun to him. I think you'll be fine.

FullEffect1911
December 28, 2008, 10:13 PM
I live in CA, and I would not do it. your not breaking any laws.

Do you mean I shouldn't sell it to him? Or that you wouldn't buy this upper but I should be fine?

You're not selling a complete gun to him. I think you'll be fine.

That's good to hear. I know I don't need an FFL, as there is no serial on the upper. I of course don't want to be breaking any CA laws.

I really hope someday the gun culture in CA gets a better foothold and gets rid of these stupid laws.

Darthbauer
December 28, 2008, 10:17 PM
When it comes to the AR you can sell any thing and everything to someone in CA. Parted out you can sell and ship everything but the lower to someone in CA. A complete rifle can be sold to someone in CA as long as it has a 10 round mag locked into the mag well. Or you can sell a complete rifle with a 10 round mag not locked into the gun if there is no pistol grip, bayonet lug, and flash hider.

Darthbauer
December 28, 2008, 10:23 PM
As for your upper, yes you can sell it to someone in CA.

FullEffect1911
December 28, 2008, 11:25 PM
As for your upper, yes you can sell it to someone in CA.

excellent, thank you everyone.

Kind of Blued
December 28, 2008, 11:38 PM
I may be mistaken, but I assume the law says that it is illegal to possess (whatever). Worst case scenario, he gets busted for ignorance of the law, which is no fault of yours.

Prince Yamato
December 29, 2008, 09:41 AM
You know, the purchaser might have a registered AW or they could be putting it on an off list lower.

caseypj
December 29, 2008, 10:52 AM
Perhaps the buyer lives in CA, and keeps some of his firearms in another state, perhaps he plans to take the upper and assemble it to a lower in some place such as Nevada. I can't see you being liable for anything.

HexHead
December 29, 2008, 12:26 PM
It's only a part, not a firearm.

ServiceSoon
December 29, 2008, 12:31 PM
I thought flash hiders and bayonet lugs were illegal in Cali?

It's only a part, not a firearm.I'm cursious to see how far that gets you in the court of law. Actually, there was a line in the movie "Blow" about drug laws. "I took a plant across an imaginary boundry line..." Judge, "It happens to be that that plant is illegal and the boundry line is real. You are guilty."

50 Shooter
December 29, 2008, 12:34 PM
The lower is the registered part and if it's not on the "list" it's considered an off list lower and that's it.

Every other part of the rifle is just that, a part and can be sold to anyone here in CA. If someone tells you anything different they're talking out their arse and spreading FUD.

Darthbauer
December 29, 2008, 12:36 PM
I thought flash hiders and bayonet lugs were illegal in Cali?

Nope.

Hanniballs
December 29, 2008, 01:21 PM
The lower is the registered part and if it's not on the "list" it's considered an off list lower and that's it.

Every other part of the rifle is just that, a part and can be sold to anyone here in CA. If someone tells you anything different they're talking out their arse and spreading FUD.

what he said.

DeCocker
December 29, 2008, 04:34 PM
The lower is the registered part and if it's not on the "list" it's considered an off list lower and that's it.

What that does mean? Does it mean it's illegal but you can keep it as long as nobody else knows about it?:confused:

Darthbauer
December 29, 2008, 04:52 PM
It means there is a list of lowers that are banned in CA. There are a lot of lowers that are not on this list. Other than buying a CA legal bushmaster carbon you need to start with a stripped lower and build the gun up from there. You can buy and register a stripped lower because by CA definition it is not an assault weapon unless it's on the list. Once you put a pistol grip on the lower there needs to be a 10 round mag locked into the gun, even without an upper on it.

Hanniballs
December 30, 2008, 12:50 AM
It means there is a list of lowers that are banned in CA. There are a lot of lowers that are not on this list.

list of banned lowers = http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php

The series language was thrown out in court so if the make and model is not listed above then it is an "off list lower".

Other than buying a CA legal bushmaster carbon you need to start with a stripped lower and build the gun up from there. You can buy and register a stripped lower because by CA definition it is not an assault weapon unless it's on the list.

Wrong.

1) you can buy complete rifles as long as they are configured correctly. example being a fixed mag or detachable mag and no evil features (pistol grip, folding/tele stock, flash hider)

2) There is no registration

3) a stripped off list lower is not an assault weapon because it's a) not on the list. b) featureless


Once you put a pistol grip on the lower there needs to be a 10 round mag locked into the gun, even without an upper on it.

Wrong again. Pistol grips are allowed on lowers that have detachable magazines, only because they do not meet the criteria of an Assault weapon in CA since it's not a centerfire weapon. If a centerfire upper is attached then it will become an assault weapon.

ps. we dont have constructive possession laws in CA

LIQUID SNAKE
December 30, 2008, 04:44 AM
Nice upper. Was it an H BAR or did it have the M203 milling under the hand guard??

FullEffect1911
December 30, 2008, 09:08 AM
Nice upper. Was it an H BAR or did it have the M203 milling under the hand guard??

It is an H BAR.

I was able to get some very nice accuracy out of it at 100 yards. About an 1.25" or so with the right load. Probably could have done better with a better trigger and nut behind it. Not bad for Chrome lining and no free floating hand guard.

zoom6zoom
December 30, 2008, 03:14 PM
Probably could have done better with a better trigger and nut behind it.
The nut behind the rifle very often has a marked effect upon the accuracy!

zoom6zoom
December 30, 2008, 03:15 PM
Probably could have done better with a better trigger and nut behind it.
The nut behind the rifle very often has a marked effect upon the accuracy!

ArmedBear
December 30, 2008, 03:31 PM
I owned a similar upper in California. No problem. Perfectly legal.

He can get into legal trouble if he puts it on a lower that's on the banned list, or if the lower is not configured in the right ways. But the upper is not illegal by itself, and an AR can be built and used legally in California.

FullEffect1911
December 30, 2008, 10:20 PM
The nut behind the rifle very often has a marked effect upon the accuracy!

oh I do agree, which is why I think this upper was capable of better accuracy.

I just need to improve my marksmanship. :D

I owned a similar upper in California. No problem. Perfectly legal.

Sounds good to me, seems conclusive at this point. Still, it's a shame I would even have to ask the question...

Paradiddle
December 30, 2008, 10:25 PM
I'm wondering why some of you who obviously are not from Cali and have no idea of our retarded and very complex laws are even commenting with your FUD in this thread?

We have enough problems without the constant spread of FUD. The LOWER is the gun - the upper means nothing.

work2shoot
December 30, 2008, 11:27 PM
Fulleffect, I moved out of Calif. after living there for 41 years and I know just about all there is to know about Calif. gun laws. So to answer your question is your upper OK to send into Calif., the answer is NO! It has a bayonet lug and a threaded muzzle. Those features were banned in Calif. in '94 and when the assault weapons ban sunset in '04 Calif kept the configuration ban from '94 (no hi cap mags, ten rounders only, no bayonet lugs or muzzle threads) still in effect. The upper is only legal in Calif. without a bayonet lugs and unthreaded muzzle's. Im positive, but a quick call to Quality parts (Bushmaster) will confirm it for you. Hate to see you get jammed up on something as stupid as this but you never really know who's on the other end if you know what I mean... Play it safe don't send it.

Fractal X
December 31, 2008, 03:47 AM
Work2Shoot
That's how the rules were for many years. However in the last few years we've won a few significant court cases - while these decisions have restored some of our freedoms, they have changed and (once again) complicated the rules.

The nice guys over at the CalGuns.net forums have made this nice PDF flowchart (see link) that can help guide you through what's legal and what isn't.
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

FullEffect1911
December 31, 2008, 08:45 AM
work2shoot, i'll have you know you gave me a mini heat attack, the money order is on it way to me right now :D

Actually according to that flow chart bushmaster xm-15 rifles are illegal so if the lower was being sold then I would have a problem here. However the upper is all just a bunch of gun parts and therefore no paperwork involved.

I would think that he could buy these parts anywhere and he would be responsible for putting them on a legal lower. In theory, he could go out of state, buy them from a gun store and then bring them back to CA with no paper work. Does this make the gun store liable?

It seems if the lower has a fixed magazine with a ten round or less capacity he could have all sorts of "evil" features and it wouldn't matter.

notorious
December 31, 2008, 08:51 AM
Yes. Every single part of the AR is legal to sell in CA except for that little piece of metal known as the stripped receiver which is a tiny little formed piece of metal with the serial # on it.

Assembling it together is another story.

HexHead
December 31, 2008, 10:48 AM
Once you put a pistol grip on the lower there needs to be a 10 round mag locked into the gun

Just curious here, but if your 10 round mag is pinned into the receiver, how do you load it? :confused:

FullEffect1911
December 31, 2008, 11:01 AM
Just curious here, but if your 10 round mag is pinned into the receiver, how do you load it?

I think I saw on Wikipedia that you are to pop to back pin and rotate the upper out of the way. Then you can load the pinned mag with a stripper clip or something of that sort.

That would be annoying.

Paradiddle
December 31, 2008, 12:20 PM
Calguns.net is your friend - in fact they have a whole FAQ out there.

work2shoot who said the bayonet made the upper illegal, is once again, wrong. I don't care how long you've lived here (I've lived here 41 years also) you really need to know that some MAJOR things changed in the last 3 years with a couple lawsuits, a court decision on "the list", and what is called "off list lowers". I also don't care about companies and their policies who have many reasons to support or not to support California (the largest guy buying marked in US by the way) - that is THEIR policy and NOT California Law.

For example - I could open a gun company and choose not to sell east of the Mississippi just because I don't want to - doesn't make it illegal.

Because we're forced to be - we've become very clever out here. For example - the law is VERY clear that a magazine locked in place by a "bullet button" or any "button" that requires a "tool" - which a bullet is defined as - is legal. So you want to reload your pistol gripped, evil featured black rifle - put one of a few brands of bullet buttons on it and reload that way.

You can drop mags clear the normal way if you don't have a pistol grip but instead chose a U15 or Monsterman grip (google them for pictures).

You are shipping this to the guys house not an FFL - IMO you are fine. You must decide but don't punish the buyer because he lives in Cali until you are very clear with the laws.

Again - the LOWER is the gun - it has the serial number and when your DROS it THAT is what is recorded. You can have 5 uppers for the same lower all configured differently.

Stop the FUD. Go to Calguns and read the FAQ.

FullEffect1911
December 31, 2008, 01:26 PM
Paradiddle,

I don't want to punish anyone, I just want to make sure my behind is covered. The consensus seems to be that I can ship it out to him no problem, but it is up to him in this case to make sure he conforms to CA law.

That works for me, thank you everyone again for all of the information I know more now about CA assault weapons law then I think i ever wanted to :neener:

billwiese
December 31, 2008, 03:20 PM
I've always wondered why someone would ask those not in CA about CA laws.

BTW, work2shoot is just plain wrong.

The best resource and discussion about CA gun laws/gun politics is http://www.calguns.net

Again, your upper is completely legal in CA. The only problem in CA is that not enough uppers are coming in :) can you send more? <bseg>

This upper is legal to use both on a registered assault weapon, or on an off-list rifle configured to not be an AW described by a 12276.1PC generic AW definition.

Both you and the buyer are completely in the clear.



Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

work2shoot
December 31, 2008, 03:26 PM
I will stand corrected! It's been about three years since my last legal information concerning assault weapon configurations and I was using it as my reference which was correct but dated. I see as other members have pointed out pretty recently some ground has been won over what is Calif. legal as far as assault rifle configurations. So Im sorry Fullefect for shocking you with my some what out dated information. It's really complex out there so I tried my best to keep up and be informed because like your buyer there are a lot of California gun buyers who don't understand the complex (stupid) ambiguous (vague) laws in that state. I know because I was one of them. If I say no don't send it, and I did, others will say, and they have, Im wrong send it. I would look at some of the good threads on this question and that really good chart from fractal x and make a your own conclusion. I was a valid FFL dealer in California from 1984 to 1994. Things got way too out of control after '94, so I turned in my book but tried my best to keep up with their laws because guys like you, and me, worry if we're doing the right thing selling to a Californian.

FullEffect1911
December 31, 2008, 04:03 PM
I will stand corrected!

Not a problem, I rather get all sides of a story to shake out every detail. I'll be honest though, I'm glad your information was dated on this one lol :D

because guys like you, and me, worry if we're doing the right thing...

And all we can do is try to the best of our knowledge and hope CA can get themselves back some rights.

MT GUNNY
December 31, 2008, 04:27 PM
OMG a Flash Hider????? :)

notorious
December 31, 2008, 07:41 PM
I know, my problem has been finding a source to get an upper configured the way I want to match up to my way old grandfathered lower.

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