RCBS Pro2000 Vs Dillon XL650


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cbroadley@comcast.net
December 29, 2008, 07:00 PM
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!
I am new to reloading and have narrowed down my choice of press to RCBS 2000 & Dillon XL 650.
There are pro's & con's to each, but the more I'm learning about everything - the more confused I'm becoming about which to choose. I don't know which dies I'm going to buy, so I don't know which machine's station set-up would be more appropriate.
Should I choose the Dies first (to see whether 2, 3 or 4 Dies would be used)? If so- which ones?
I will be reloading 9mm Luger, and I have a Rock River Arms CAR15 chambered in 5.56. I'd like the rifle to be as accurate as possible - & jam-free!
Are anyone's Dies better suited to 5.56 than others are?
Are some Dies better suited to progressive presses?
Do I really need small Bases?
Are the RCBS X-Dies adjustable to suit a 5.56 chamber?
And last of all - why didn't someone tell me how complicated these decisions would be?

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Chief-7700
December 29, 2008, 07:46 PM
Oh boy here we go again!!! Please use the search function on the top of the page. Can't tell you how many times this question has been asked. "What is a better machine the blue one, the red one, the green one ect......" My answer to the question is the "one I like and works for me and it is blue"
Chief

LloydPratt
December 29, 2008, 07:53 PM
I have been in this same spot about a year ago, and I settled for a used Square Deal Dillon in 9mm. It was a good learning experience. I also bought a new Lee Cast turret press at the same time but I never finshed setting up the Lee as the Used Dillon made the Lee look like $@!#$@#. I got the Dillon 650 with everything for Christmas (thank you Santa) and it is the way to go. It has a lot of safety options available and I suggest you get them all. The Dillon is a once in a lifetime purchase you will only need to add other calibers as you go.

As far as the dies go, when you purchase the Dillon you will need to tell them what caliber you are going to load. I would highly suggest the Dillon dies. As far as the 5.56 goes, they will have all the goodies to reload that also but I suggest starting with loading 9mm and then move on to rifle loads because there's more to loading the rifle ammo.

Good luck, and everyone on this forum has been very helpful in me getting started, and now I'm cranking 'em out! Lots of good people with good advice.

Lloyd

Rustler
December 29, 2008, 07:58 PM
+1 for the Dillon!

Also don't forget to get a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (I replaced the one that came with my Dillon die set for both 45 acp and 45 colt) for the 9mm http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html. Have never had a problem feeding ammo after I started using it.

Chief-7700
December 29, 2008, 08:13 PM
cb, I sent you a PM did you get it?
Chief

lordgroom
December 29, 2008, 09:21 PM
I love my RCBSpro2000. I chose it over the Dillon because of the primer system. Either way you are getting a quality press with a great warranty. Both will do the same thing. Pick your preference and don't look back.

Small base dies are not needed.

mrayw
December 29, 2008, 11:27 PM
I use two hornady lnl ap's and a RCBS PRO 2000. I like the hornady's but the pro 2000 simply works day after day. The 2000 is like a much improved dillon 550b in my experience. Hornady,RCBS,Dillon take your pick hard to go wrong with any of them.

dmproske
December 29, 2008, 11:54 PM
RCBS Pro 2000. I suggest get the one with the manual index. Then after you load several thousand rounds you can get the auto index kit if you need the little extra speed. Starting out with a auto index you can screw up alot of ammo learning how it goes.

winchester243
December 30, 2008, 01:10 AM
If it is important for you to have the option to seat & crimp in separate stations and still have a place for a powder check die, get the 650. If you may want a case feeder, get the 650 (or the Hornady).

If the answer is no to those options, the Pro 2000 is a fine press and is worth considering. Personally I like the primer system (strips vs tubes), but apparently others hate them so you may want to look into this before you decide.

Peter M. Eick
December 30, 2008, 08:03 AM
Winchester has it down exactly.

Ignore all of the propaganda about red vs. blue vs. green.

The two questions to you should be do you 1) want to crimp and seat separately or combined and 2) do you want a powder check die?

If yes to both get the 650 because you need 6 stations.
If yes to powder check and no to 1 then the pro 2000 works.
If yes to 1 and no to 2 then the pro2000 works (my solution).

The APS priming system works well and is easy to use. Most important to me is that it does not have a blast shield and I have never experienced a primer blowup with an APS primer. I have also never even heard of an APS primer going off. This cannot be said about the tube based primer solutions like the blue and the red gang. Do a search and read about primer tube explosions. Not fun.

The next issue to consider is the dillon powder measuring system. Is it good enough. I have no experience at it, but it seems to me that lots of folks have issues with it from reading the threads.


My opinion is that the Pro2000 would be great if they had made it a 7 station machine or even 9 stations. That way I could have a few spares. As it is I will stay with my 5 stations and keep using it as I slowly work toward my 250,000 rounds loaded with no failures so far. It is not perfect, but it the tool I have learned to use.

snuffy
December 30, 2008, 10:56 AM
If yes to both get the 650 because you need 6 stations.

I'd like to see a dillon 650 with 6 stations, I didn't know they made one.

The APS priming system works well and is easy to use.

I've heard just the opposite. Then try finding the aps strips. I've never seen them offered loaded. That means an additional step for those machines that use them. That step is separately loading the aps strips with an aps primer loading machine, using either cci or some other brand primer, BEFORE you can even begin using the press. Then if you DO find the pre-loaded aps strips, you're stuck with CCI primers.

I guess you can tell I drink blue cool aid! I got my 650 WITHOUT a case feeder. Big mistake! But I know how it feels to have a race car with a pinto 4 cyl. engine in it! Like trying to load with handcuffs on!

Hornady now has a case feeder, a copy of the dillon feeder. RCBS has no such option,,,--yet. Everybody else is playing catch-up to dillon, get the dillon, you'll be ahead of the rest.

winchester243
December 30, 2008, 12:45 PM
snuffy, no the dillon doesn't have 6 stations but it does combine the flaring and powder dropping in one station allowing it to do in 5 stations what would require 6 stations in the Pro 2000 as these are done in separate steps in the RCBS unit.

As far as the aps strips, they are easy and quick to load. Do you not have to load your primer tubes BEFORE you can even begin using the 650?

Shoney
December 30, 2008, 02:29 PM
winchester243 wrote, "dillon doesn't have 6 stations but it does combine the flaring and powder dropping in one station allowing it to do in 5 stations "In all fairness, the LNL Ap is the same, powder drop and expander die in one operation.

As for the primer strips, I've heard more of pro and a little con.

Peter M. Eick
December 30, 2008, 03:44 PM
I just buy my CCI primers in the strips. Thus no fiddling with loading or ever even touching the primers.

While this could quickly degrade to a blue/red/green discussion, lets take the high road on it. Again, the 650 offers you the option to seat and crimp and powder check as separate stations. RCBS does not.

To me this is the key issue. If you can get around that problem, then the case feeder, dillon powder measure and dillon blast sheild primer blow up problems become somewhat secondary.

I can add that in about a quarter million rounds loaded, I have never once filled a primer tube and never had a primer go off.

Peter M. Eick
December 30, 2008, 05:09 PM
I do agree that right now the LNL is a really good machine from the outside. The question is how will it hold up and how do folks like the case feeder.

Today if I had no investments I would look at the LNL carefully.

The issue to me then would be the aps primer strips and I like them enough that I would probably go Pro2000 even with the casefeeder.

goose2
December 30, 2008, 07:17 PM
I have a Dillon SL 900 shotshell reloader that I truly love and am a huge Dillon fan to say the least.
I set sail to buy a Dillon metalic loader and after talking to a few friends decided to get the LNL with the ezject. I will say that Dillons customer service is second to none. After dealing with both Dillon and Hornady they both are equally very very good so that's not a issue in a decision.
After using the LNL I will say it is as good as it gets and at a smaller price tag. The Dillon has quite a few more moving parts than the others. With what I have herd and talked to people about, the LNL is the way to go.

mrayw
December 30, 2008, 09:20 PM
Pete, actually you can use powder check die, then seat and crimp in separate die stations. I use a Lee pro auto disc powder measure with the expander die in station 2.
So in station #1 size case
#2 prime then expand casemouth and powder
#3 powder check die
#4 seat bullet
#5 crimp!
I use power pistol and titegroup both of which meter like water in the pro auto disk. I also use the lee in place of the hornady powder meter for fine grain powder.Before I get flamed the Lee measure is like the RCBS PRO 2000,it simply works.

BigJakeJ1s
December 31, 2008, 03:44 PM
You can purchase the Hornady PM linkage and powder through expanders separately, and put them on an RCBS 2000 with the Uniflow measure. Then you can seat and crimp separately, and have a station left over for a powder check die.

Alternatively, you could probably adapt (extend the foot of) a powder check die to work on top of a Lyman powder through expander die. But you would have to expand after dumping powder.

Andy

prickett
December 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
Pete, actually you can use powder check die, then seat and crimp in separate die stations. I use a Lee pro auto disc powder measure with the expander die in station 2.
So in station #1 size case
#2 prime then expand casemouth and powder
#3 powder check die
#4 seat bullet
#5 crimp!
I use power pistol and titegroup both of which meter like water in the pro auto disk. I also use the lee in place of the hornady powder meter for fine grain powder.Before I get flamed the Lee measure is like the RCBS PRO 2000,it simply works.

I have exactly the same setup. I think the Lee Auto Disc is one of the best kept secrets in the reloading world. I load 3 calibers and have three die plates with a Lee mounted on each of the three. Total cost is that of any ONE powder measure from RCBS or Dillon. After just one initial powder drop to eject compacted powder, the thing start dropping identical weights all day long. VERY accurate.

Regarding the APS priming system, I initially had problems with it jamming. But, for whatever reason, 3 or 4 months later it cleared itself up and has turned into a VERY reliable system (2 years of continuous use). Its quick to load primer strips (I've NEVER seen primers sold already loaded), and gives a good visual reference as to how many primers are left (vs. closed metal tubes where you have no idea).

Peter M. Eick
January 1, 2009, 08:31 AM
I order all of my APS primers in strips. I get them from Midway or Powder valley. I normally order about 50,000 primers at a whack and they come 5000 per boxed sleeve in aps strips. Lot easier that way.

Galil5.56
January 1, 2009, 10:03 AM
and gives a good visual reference as to how many primers are left (vs. closed metal tubes where you have no idea).

My 550B has a "dipstick" that works great by itself to monitor primer levels, and even came with a low primer buzzer that would wake the sleepiest reloader. Personally, I have no desire to buy into proprietary components, and a flip tray and tubes works just peachy for me and always has.

prickett
January 1, 2009, 11:12 AM
Personally, I have no desire to buy into proprietary components, and a flip tray and tubes works just peachy for me and always has.

The APS isn't any more proprietary than the Dillon primer tube (or doesn't HAVE to be). You can still buy any brand primer not preloaded into the strips, and put them in the APS loader (comes with the Pro 2000). Shake your primers to flip them, insert empty strips into the loader (also comes with the Pro 2000), and load the strips that way. The strips then are no more proprietary than the tubes that the Dillon uses.

I've destroyed half a dozen strips in 2 years (all during the initial 2 months where I struggled with this system). RCBS has replaced all of them and I've bought more just to have on hand. But, that is no different from bending a primer tube and having to buy (or have replaced) a new one. And, I can assure you, the strips a significantly less expensive than the tubes.

I've used tubes and I've used the APS, and I much prefer the APS strips.

mrayw
January 1, 2009, 01:59 PM
I must admit when a man posts that he orders primers 50,000 at a time, I think I won't post in same thread as him as he has probably dropped more primers on the floor than I have loaded!!!

Galil5.56
January 1, 2009, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Personally, I have no desire to buy into proprietary components, and a flip tray and tubes works just peachy for me and always has.

The APS isn't any more proprietary than the Dillon primer tube (or doesn't HAVE to be). You can still buy any brand primer not preloaded into the strips, and put them in the APS loader (comes with the Pro 2000). Shake your primers to flip them, insert empty strips into the loader (also comes with the Pro 2000), and load the strips that way. The strips then are no more proprietary than the tubes that the Dillon uses.

I've destroyed half a dozen strips in 2 years (all during the initial 2 months where I struggled with this system). RCBS has replaced all of them and I've bought more just to have on hand. But, that is no different from bending a primer tube and having to buy (or have replaced) a new one. And, I can assure you, the strips a significantly less expensive than the tubes.

I've used tubes and I've used the APS, and I much prefer the APS strips.



I did write "components", not equipment, so of course Dillon uses tubes as their equipment, RCBS, strips you can buy loaded, or spend $35 for a primer loading tool. Can't say I have ever bent a tube (even if I did Dillon would replace it gratis), and the APS system is just another way to skin a cat. Although the chance of a "tube explosion" is rare, the APS system does seem to prohibit this, and if you are willing to spend about $4 extra/1000, it does save time from loading tubes.

If I had problems with the Dillon priming system that they could not/would not fix I might strongly looking into the APS system, but I can't remember the last time I had a primer jam???

rfwobbly
January 1, 2009, 02:30 PM
And last of all - why didn't someone tell me how complicated these decisions would be?

What? And let you miss out on all the fun? :D


CB -
Note that these discussions seem to have centered around the 9mm reloading, while the 223 will need to have a case trim operation thrown in there somewhere after sizing. I do both these cartridges on a Dillon 550B and can assure you that both have entirely different loading processes due to the rifle's need for case length adjustment.

Peter M. Eick
January 1, 2009, 06:25 PM
When you order from Powder Valley, they have a limit of 72 lbs per box as I remember it. What I do is order enough primers to not go into another box to maximize my 25$ hazmat shipping costs. Last time that was 50,000 primers and I have about 5 sleeves (25,000 primers) left. The problem is I ordered poorly and have a lot of cci-350's ands and 550's but I need cci-300's and especially cci-500's.

I will put together another big order in Feb along with another powder order.

The big problem you face is storage. It is against some fire codes to have that many primers in one spot in a home, so I part them out to friends to store at their houses. This way I can keep my "stash" in the fire limits. Make sure you think through the problem before you order.

BigJakeJ1s
January 2, 2009, 08:44 PM
The only priming system that I have heard of setting off a tube full of primers is on the Dillon 650. Unlike the 550 or the LNL AP, the 650 has a "chain" of primers in a disk from the priming site back to the bottom of the tube. So if one is set off at the cartridge, then the chain goes off and sets off the primers in the tube. On the 550 and LNL AP, one primer at a time is transferred from the tube to the priming station, which is a good distance away from the tube. I have never heard of a primer tube detonation in either of them.

Andy

Peter M. Eick
January 3, 2009, 08:35 AM
Go search this forum for "dillon explosion" and read all about them. If you go over to glocktalk you can find more.

If you are really interested look up the patents for the 650 and 550 and read them over. Especially the part about the "blast sheild".

Galil5.56
January 3, 2009, 08:53 AM
If you go over to glocktalk you can find more.

Boy they can make just about anything KB... Just kidding. Maybe the blast shield idea is Dillon being prudent for something although extremely rare, possible. Kinda like an over pressure valve on the water heater, fuse panel in the home, thermal switches in furnaces...

WmCC
January 3, 2009, 11:19 AM
I used a 650 for several years...a very fine press, especially for long runs of a single cartridge. I'm a bit older now and do not shoot Bullseye or IDPA very often and have switched over to the Pro 2000 (exclusively) due to the fact that I find it to be simpler, more durable, and much FASTER with respect to frequent cartridge changes.
My rate of production has not changed appreciably between the Dillon and RCBS as I tend to scrutinize and keep tabs on everything as I go along.

I strongly recommend the RCBS lock-out die regardless of the machine that you choose.

winchester243
January 3, 2009, 01:27 PM
As far as the BS, here's an old thread on the 650, it's too bad the pics are no longer available.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118164

snuffy
January 3, 2009, 03:50 PM
As far as the BS, here's an old thread on the 650, it's too bad the pics are no longer available.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118164

I didn't call BS on the story that a stack of primers have detonated on various machines that use tubes. What I'm saying is BS is the sideways detonation theory. I'm saying it is just NOT possible to cause a chain reaction SIDEWAYS in the dillon 650 primer disc. Saying that it happens, defies logic AND physics.

Johnny Guest
January 4, 2009, 01:07 AM
1. Y'all quit arguing, now. Saying someone is "full of it" or "calling BS" is just too near to personal attacks.

2. Just posting "+1" is non-contributory and it LOOKS as if those who make such a post is simply tring to run up their post counts.

I'll just delete such entries as I find them. I hope this is all that is necessary to stop this stuff.

Johnny Guest
Staff

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