[Sven]

*unless said handguns are on a special magic list (already for sale in CA) or have two features: a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect mechanism

SB 489
Semi-Auto Handgun Bill - would require that all semiautomatic handguns manufactured after January 2005 that are imported and sold in California be equipped with a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect mechanism.
Scott

9/24/2003 2:30 PM
SB489 was signed by the governor, against the opposition of law enforcement agencies across California.

[Thumper]

This is going to be REALLY interesting.

[Moparmike]

Ooooh, this is really getting interesting. I keep wondering when the people with intelligence and common sense will leave or overthrow that place. Sign me up if you need help, oh oppressed PRK residents.

[Chris Rhines]

Keep in mind, change magazine disconnects to integral locking devices and that law has been on the books here in MD since 2003.

See, us right-coasters can keep right up with California when it comes to totalitarianism!

- Chris

[Frohickey]

I bet that law enforcement and government employees are exempt from the provisions of this law

[Phyphor]

I so have to get the :cuss: out of this state.

[RKCheung]

Any way McClintock or Arnold can repeal this thing if they get into the governor's seat? :(

[Telperion]

I wrote, I called, I screamed, but to no avail. The only thing left to do is buy, if I could get over my resentment of the brain-damaged HSC.

RKCheung: The governor can't repeal anything alone -- it's the legislature that makes the laws.

Frohickey: Police are exempt from this law, but as Jim March pointed out there's a huge liability issue if police continue to carry weapons that are defined as "unsafe" by the law. They'll likely have to replace their sidearms at the taxpayers' cost. :mad:

[Bruce H]

California doesn't need a recall election. California needs an election to fill the offices of all the polititions who suddenly assumed room temprature.

[Standing Wolf]

I miss the People's Republic of California about 1% as much as a migraine head ache.

[Kendra Pacelli]

:what:


















enough said

[Sven]

I'd say about 98% of semi-automatic gun owners in California are completely unaware that this law has passed. Truly sad. They'll find out in 05 or 06.

The erosion of liberty is slow and gradual, one thing at a time they are marching backward here in CA and elsewhere in our Nation:

-Assault Weapons (CA has its OWN ban)
-High-Capacity Magazines (not since 2000 can you buy or import)

Adding "Fisher Price" features and political correctness to a weapon in hopes it will stop people from killing themselves is the next step - Darwin just did flips in his grave.

I feel at times so completely powerless here, surrounded by thousands of citizens who either do not care or applaud this legislation! My only option is to call my legislators' assistants and leave a note, and vote periodically.

Who hold our LAWMAKERS accountable?

There is no accountabilty for:

a) the cost of putting this change in place
b) developing ways to measuring the efficacy of such legislation once in place
c) REMOVING laws that don't work!

I look in American Rifleman and get angry at times because all I see are positive articles about victories, printed on glossy paper. That's great, and I appreciate the work the group I support is doing, but I am paying the NRA money to directly fight the war and enlist my service, not give a slice of history.

Fortunately, the CAL-ERT fills my need for immediate notification:

http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/calerts-signup

I also like the "Firing Line" newsletter put out by the California Rifle and Pistol Association. It's printed cheaply and is up to date with action on the frontlines.

http://www.CRPA.org

[hops]

Based on a recent experience, these loaded chamber indicators are useless and add no value.

[S_O_Laban]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but...., care to elaborate, Hops?

[jimpeel]

This law is a direct violation of the Commerce Clause which is reserved to the Congress. It is also a restraint of trade pursuant to the Anti-trust laws.

Anyone here think ANY of the mfgrs will sue? Don't hold your breath unless you look maaaahvelous in blue.

[Sven]

The manufacturers need to band together and fund a major case, but how do we UN-MAKE a law?

What is the process?

[Don Galt]

If the manufacturers actually cared about the RKBA, they would refuse to sell to police agencies in states that banned their guns.

[0007]

Right on, Dan.
I keep hoping/wishing that the cigarette manufacturers would do the same. Just one with the cojones to tell New York or Calif. that "Ok, we're not going to be sending anymore of our cigarettes to your state. AND by the way we won't be paying any taxes on the ones that are smuggled in"... Can you say "prohibition"?

:banghead: :cuss: :

[Pendragon]

They are smart when they pass these laws. They hardly ever ban posession of the old guns - they just slowly choke off access to the new stuff.

Those who care stock up, but they are taking the long view on this.

This bill alone is at least 10% of the reason I moved out.

No 1911s, no Glocks - wow.

I think the BHP would still be legal - the .40 cal versions have a notch that shows if the chamber is loaded.

I agree with Tom McClintock - California is a total paradise as far as the land and climate go - only Government is powerful enough to ruin it and drive people out of such a cool place.

[keederdag]

I second the frustration with the gun industry. They come on all pro RTKBA then continue to sell to their worst enemy's. LAPD issues beretta 92's right? No mag disconect. But I see some guy from Beretta in the RIFELMAN every other month standin next to some NRA biggy. And while were at it, how about Kimber and the LAPD SWAT adds. The LAPD is the most notoriously anti-gun pd on the West coast. So Friggen cut em off allready, the gun industry needs to stop pimp'en themselves out to the org's that are trying to put them out of buisiness. :cuss: :fire: :cuss: :fire:

[spacemanspiff]

the loaded chamber indicators on my steyr m pistols sometimes get gunked up and will protude without a round in the pipe. maybe they should put a flashing red light on the rear of the slide to indicate its loaded. :rolleyes: :scrutiny:

[keederdag]

Yea and one on the Bore so's they can tell which end is Dangerouse!:D

[moa]

Browning 9MM P35 High Power has the magazine disconnect. Pistol was introduced in 1935 and about the only serious complaint I have heard about it is that the magazine disconnect itself is dangerous because you cannot fire a round in an emergency when the magazine is removed.

P35 has been adopted by about 80 nations armed forces and God knows how many LE agencies since 1935.

[10-Ring]

GREAT! :banghead: It's like Davis is doing this stuff out of spite :rolleyes:

[Werewolf]

Don Galt Said:If the manufacturers actually cared about the RKBA, they would refuse to sell to police agencies in states that banned their guns.

That'll happen when hell freezes over and pigs fly.

Considering that 40 Million people live in Kalifornia - even with their restrictive gun control laws - it is unlikely that any Gun Manufacturer would give up that big a slice of it's business. It's cheaper just to add the required features.

Springfield Armory already puts the loaded chamber indicator on most of it's new stuff and a magazine disconnect isn't that big of a deal.

You're talking reducing the bottom line for a company to boycott the Kalifornia market and that just isn't gonna happen.

Wouldn't work any way - example - how many of you have purchased a S&W firearm lately?

[Powderman]

If the manufacturers actually cared about the RKBA, they would refuse to sell to police agencies in states that banned their guns.

And that is precisely why if I am ever lucky enough to save the money up, I will be buying one of Mr. Barrett's fine pieces of machinery. He stood up to the City of Los Angeles, precisely on those terms--the loss of a contract worth a lot of money.

[SIGarmed]

Powderman

I concur.
Also you may want to save up for a Barret rifle. I am.

[keederdag]

Smith & Wesson is owned by an AZ company called Safe -T-Hammer. This outfit is as pro RTKBA as any other. I think, anyone who still holds a grudge against S&W for selling out, better never buy a Ford cause he was an anti-semite:D

[Redlg155]

Good greif...will it never end for you guys?

I was channel surfing recently and got to hear a bit about some folks lamenting about the loss of business in California to other states. I wonder..do they actually think a move like this will bring any more revenue to California?

My bet is that a few more folks will get sick of the place and move to a freindlier "country".

Good Shooting
Red

[geegee]

And that is precisely why if I am ever lucky enough to save the money up, I will be buying one of Mr. Barrett's fine pieces of machinery. He stood up to the City of Los Angeles, precisely on those terms--the loss of a contract worth a lot of money.
That guy has a set of .50 cal. stones. Never met him, seen him, heard him, nothing but read about what he did. He must wake up every morning feeling embarassed about the squids that run his state. :fire:

Every time I hear some nitwit on TV say (in a so condesecending manner): "Well, as California goes, so goes the rest of the country..." I want to hurl. :barf:
When will Californians finally rebel against this baloney? :cuss: geegee

[Orthonym]

Maybe it'll keep Bob Barr from shooting himself. (Remember his ND with the mag out?)

[tiberius]

What's with the half measures? Surely it would be safer if they restricted handgun sales to only those models which cannot have a firing pin installed. :rolleyes:

[SGT109FA]

California is changing its nickname to " The Turd State" :mad:

[45R]

I think I want to throw up now.......................:fire:

[MagKnightX]

As to SW firearms purchase, not me!

As to the gun industry stopping selling stuff to states that ban their stuff, Barrett threatened to do that if California passed the .50cal ban. Apparently some agencies in Kali use Barretts, and of course they at the very least need replacement parts every so often...

They just need to say they won't sell guns with the illegal features to PD or SWAT.

And yes, I think Gray is just trying to fork up Kali as much as possible before he gets his a*s kicked out, purely out of spiteful hatred for the state that rejected him.

[keederdag]

Mag Knight, What about colt's, rugers, H&K's? Do you abstain?:confused:

[marklbucla]

On the upside, I now have an excuse and the extra motivation to go on a gun spending spree before this goes into effect next year, according to the local gun shop.

[QuickDraw]

California is changing its nickname to " The Turd State"
Thats pretty funny.....Huh? Oh yeah,Hey I live here,knock that off!:)
To answer the S&W question,Yep,629.Pick it up next week! :D

QuickDraw

[Sven]

Rebel? How do the 100,000 people who are really ticked off about this DO anything. Overheard at IDPA last night: "they've got us by the balls"... well, what do we do about it?

[QuickDraw]

Sven,
I'll bet theres more than 100,000 people P.O'd.I read/heard
that Republicans account for only 35% of California. Its
going to be an up hill battle!
We have a ray of hope with Jim March! I trust him/will
support his efforts.Look how far he's gotten in a short time!
Perhaps we need to start at the grassroots level.Waiting for the
NRA hasn't worked so far.As silly as it was,look how the MMM
was thrown together in a very short time.I don't have the number,
but I imagine the number of gun owners in this State would be
a real attention getter...if we could get everyone pulling in the
same direction.
Anyway just some thoughts.We now return you to your regularly
scheduled thread:D

QuickDraw

[MagKnightX]

Mag Knight, What about colt's, rugers, H&K's? Do you abstain?

The last Ruger I got was a 10/22. I haven't bought from the others, but likely I will get nothing new from them. Remember: they don't get the money if you buy used. Unfortunately, The USP Tactical will be too good to pass up if I find a good used one, and at some point I will be getting a Super Redhawk.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Never bought S&W. Never will buy S&W. Although this is partially because I have yet to see a decent American autoloader that is not : A) butt-ugly, B) a 1911 or C)Made by a 'traitor' company.

Only Ruger I have is a second hand 10/22, which I'm pretty sure was purchased in the 80s, before Ruger became the hand of the devil. I'm not likely to get another.

[TimW]

Keederdag said something like:
Smith & Wesson is owned by an AZ company called Safe -T-Hammer. This outfit is as pro RTKBA as any other. I think, anyone who still holds a grudge against S&W for selling out, better never buy a Ford cause he was an anti-semite

Saf-T-Hammer bought out Tomson PLC for S&W. When the Bush Administration came to power, they stopped enforcing the agreements that Smith had signed with the Clinton administration.

However, Saf-T-Hammer has yet to repudiate or disavow any of the agreements they've signed. They've stayed silent. Even when asked.

How do I know?

I have asked. Straight to them. No answer.

In fact, nobody in Brassroots or anyone else in Arizona has received an answer about this.

So, until Smith / Saf-T-Hammer decides to disavow the agreements, they might as well be abiding by them. No new Smiths for me.

TimW
Phoenix

Tim Weaver
Phoenix Area Field Rep
Brassroots, Inc.
www.brassroots.org

[Drjones]

Anyone know how it works?

How long will guns currently on the list remain on?

Will it just be "no mag disconnect, no chamber loaded indicator, no gun period"?


:(

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

[Phyphor]

I'm just wondering.... 'coz.. you know, it'd be a shame if they were fated to be turned in and got...er... lost somehow.

:evil:

[Drjones]

For now (key term) there is no confiscation in the works, but just give the democrats time....

[Hawk]

After this thread first started, I began checking my three favorite dealers for "pre-lawyered" 1911's - Series I Kimbers, Series 70 Colts, yadda, yadda - pickings were slim. There was one lonely, used STI Ranger that I snatched up for a hot price.

When talking to STI on parts, I asked about the amount of hoop-jumping that would be needed to sell in the PRK. Response was short and not the slightest bit ambiguous. Unless my contact was mistaken, mag disconnects, loaded chamber indicators, and other such froo-froo will never darken the STI product. I like these guys. Gun was pretty nice, too.

[morganm01]

They (manufacturers) will only yeild to consumer pressure on this issue. They use the RKBA stance as a marketing tool, Like the Catholic church on abusive priests. The manu.'s need to feel the heat from US before they would ever consider not selling to the LAPD.

If the manufacturers actually cared about the RKBA, they would refuse to sell to police agencies in states that banned their guns.

We have to make them feel it just like WE have to do everything else that WE want done right.

[Drjones]

If the manufacturers actually cared about the RKBA, they would refuse to sell to police agencies in states that banned their guns.

I was just reading my copy of "America's First Freedom" that just came in the mail today, and it said that SB 489 will open up the govt to a host of new lawsuits, as pretty much all handguns used by all govt. agencies in this state would be deemed "unsafe."

I doubt the govt would actually follow the laws it creates for us peons though... :rolleyes: :cuss:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Maybe it is time for GW to liberate California. :D

This is yet another reason I am glad that I fled.:fire:

I was raised in the upper midwest and only ended up there out of fate. :cool:

This last 10 years, or so, has been illuminating: the march to socialism, gun-banning, bullet tax, "assault weapon" bans, and on, and on, and on

[Hal]

See where it all ends up going when the Gov'ner gets all scared of black people w/shotguns?

Thanks Ron!

[Orthonym]

has a little notch in the breech end of its little barrel through which, if the light's good, I can see a glint of brass from the case head, if there's a cartridge in it. Does that count as a loaded chamber indicator in Kali?

[tiberius]

I think so, I have seen 1911 style pistols with this modification.

[Drjones]

Bump.

[artherd]

Barrett has balls of API, that's for sure.

For that reason alone, I will buy an M82A1 rifle from him one day (oh, that and they're bloody awesome, but that's besides the point, right? :D)



What is it going to take? A pollice officer (because a civillian's life just isn't that important) dead in the streets with a round in the chamber, mid-reload, because his 'mag disconnect' didn't let him use that holdout round to save his life?


CLI is just another thing that SOUNDS like a good idea, but isn't.

A) Relying on any indicator other than *checking the goddamn chamber* for a round is dangerous in the extreme. The indicator CAN fail. Many new lawsuits here.

B) Guns are always loaded! Adding a device that actively encourages people to break this rule of gun handling is irresponsible at best, and criminally prosecutable at worst.

C) CLI, like an internal locking device, is one more device to break and jam up the entire gun, and possibly get someone killed.

D) They just don't work. I didn't even realize my Glock had one for several days. They won't stop a total friggin idoit from pointing the gun at his face and shooting himself (see the Beretta lawsuit.)



Don't get me started on mag disconnects. I will not have one in any gun I ever own. They WILL get someone killed. If they haven't already.

[c_yeager]

See where it all ends up going when the Gov'ner gets all scared of black people w/shotguns?

I really wish that more of these really "liberal" antis would realize how all this started in California in the first place.

[Orthonym]

Does anyone remember the Black Panthers? Didn't they assert their rights under California law to go openly armed in public, and didn't they scare the legislature into changing the law? Had the BPs been what they said they were, and done what they said they were doing, I would be on their side but, as it came out, they weren't so much into justice as they were into gettin' over on people, in a nasty, murderous Bolshevik kind of way.

[GigaBuist]

D) They just don't work. I didn't even realize my Glock had one for several days. They won't stop a total friggin idoit from pointing the gun at his face and shooting himself (see the Beretta lawsuit.)


Glock's have loaded chamber indicators? Which ones? Where?

I'm going to crap my pants if one of mine has one and I don't know it.

[Derek Zeanah]

It's on the right, behind the ejection port. It's parallel to the barrel, and it juts out a little with a round in the chamber. (Going from memory here -- I've never found this a useful feature.)

[Derek Zeanah]

Here: from a google images search (glockfaq.com):

http://www.glockfaq.com/images/pics/indicator.jpg

Note that the one I remember was longer, and seemed to not touch the ejection port. Could be a function of failing memory in my old age (early 30's).

[Sven]

Wonder what the cost to CA of enforcing SB489 is - ARNOLD ARE YOU LISTENING? THERE IS PORK TO TRIM!

[armoredman]

Still lots of room in AZ for good gun people - leave the Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving, vegetarian anti gun/hunting/selfdefense LIEberals behind, will ya? Enough of them have moved here they think they can change things.....and fail miserably when they try!:D

[Cosmoline]

I like the chamber indicator on my Walther PP, but that's just because I'm nervous around semis. I see no reason why it should be mandated. I disilke the notion of a magazine disconnector as well, but I think it should be an option if the market demand is there.

Glad I live in a free state!

[inventory0297]

This beyond stupid law is the final straw, I'm moving my legal residency to my cabin in Tahoe (Nevada side thank god). Looking forward to some class III goodies, CA can kiss my ??? for the 5 figure taxes I pay yearly. After its set up I'll be glad to "personally import" off list handguns for all the Cali convicts.

With regards to how this whole thing started (the Dix lawsuit), I think it bears repeating what anyone with an ounce of common sense will know:


If you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, EXPECT it to fire. Mr. Dix, your son was killed by a friend's stupidity, NOT a quality Beretta firearm.

But thanks for all the hassle sir.

[/rant]

[Balog]

armoredman: hey, I like Volvos!


;)

[Partisan Ranger]

If we all banded together, would it be possible to saw California off the continental US? Or perhaps blast it off with high explosives? Turn it into a Pacific island perhaps?

:D

[tiberius]

If we all banded together, would it be possible to saw California off the continental US? Or perhaps blast it off with high explosives? Turn it into a Pacific island perhaps?

Where's Lex Luther when we really need him? :)

[Standing Wolf]

Never—ever—under any circumstances—trust a R.I.N.O.

[SoCalGeek]

They (manufacturers) will only yeild to consumer pressure on this issue. They use the RKBA stance as a marketing tool, Like the Catholic church on abusive priests. The manu.'s need to feel the heat from US before they would ever consider not selling to the LAPD.

This is true. Remember the Ammo tax? The .50cal ban? These, along with probably a bunch of other outrageous bills were killed in CA because enough gun owners were motivated to write to their congresscritters. Say an organization such as the NRA or the CRPA figured out which company was the biggest supplier to LE agencies in California (my bet is glock :barf: ), and had their members and other gun owners write these companies saying "Stop selling to LE agencies in California or i will never buy another of your products". If enough people said that and stuck to it, and that company listened, i'm willing to bet the agencies would cave pretty fast. They would need replacement parts, and bitch and moan until the legislature stopped wiping with the Constitution.


Wow, that was one hell of a run on sentence.

[BryanP]

Where's Lex Luther when we really need him? :)
"Otisberg?"

[artherd]

They'd just switch to Rugers :barf: .

Barrett could make such a threat because he has almost no other competition (nobody else makes anything quite like the M82A1! ) Wheras say Bushmaster tried to do the same thing? Fine, I'll go buy a Colt/Armalite/RRA weapon that's very very nearly the same gun.

I hate to say it, but cappitolism will prevail in such a situation. Only Glock could come close, and the PDs would just switch to Berettas on our dime.