Primer discharge legality?


PDA






chrisf8657
January 1, 2009, 12:31 AM
Im sure some of you have seen the Speer Plastic Bullets & Cases for Training.
They are simply a case & plastic piece that is powered solely by a primer, no gunpowder.

While, technically literally it might be, I don't see how it is as no deadly projectile or gunpowder is involved.

My question is this:

1. Would it be considered "discharing a firearm within city limits" by shooting these?
2. Would it be considered same if only the primer was loaded, essentially making it a "cap gun"?

Thanks fellas

If you enjoyed reading about "Primer discharge legality?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Duke of Doubt
January 1, 2009, 12:32 AM
That would depend entirely on your City's particular ordinances. Look them up, and consult with your Chief of Police.

kingpin008
January 1, 2009, 12:37 AM
Agreed. This is really something that you need to find out for yourself, rather than asking a bunch of random folks on the internet.

unspellable
January 1, 2009, 12:44 PM
On technical points, this would be discharging a firearm.

As stated above, the fine details of the law vary from place to place.

As a general principal, if you live in a place where this question matters, you live in a place where you will be hassled for it.

I wouldn't try it in my backyard. In my basement the noise level would be low enough that no one outside the house would notice. But then I'd have to worry about lead in the air from the primers.

deadin
January 1, 2009, 12:53 PM
Definition directly out of the Federal Regulations:

Firearm. Any weapon, including a
starter gun, which will or is designed to or
may readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; the
frame or receiver of any such weapon; any
firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any
destructive device; but the term shall not
include an antique firearm. In the case of a
licensed collector, the term shall mean
only curios and relics.

I would say that using a primer to expel a projectile would fit right into this definition.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 12:57 PM
I agree, whether it is smokeless powder driving the projectile or a primer makes no difference. It is still a firearm using an explosive charge of some sort to drive a projectile.

Just because the explosive force is rather small -- it is, nonetheless, an explosive force.

If we start comparing the "size" of the explosive force and the power of such, then one could easily say that a .22 short is not really a firearm cartridge as compared to a 500 Magnum or a 50 BMG round.

If you want to get beyond that, use a water pistol.

rscalzo
January 1, 2009, 01:02 PM
Speer Plastic Bullets & Cases for Training.

Don't underestimate the power of those plastic bullets. I had them penetrate a wood backstop years ago. Under the right circumstance, they can injure.

I can only comment on NJ law which states:

"Ammunition" means various projectiles, including bullets, missiles, slugs or balls together with
fuses, propelling charges and primers that may be fired, ejected, projected, released, or emitted from
firearms or weapons.

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic
rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected
any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by
means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or
explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of
an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is
a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or
is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

Both definitions would most likely be satisfied by the Speer bullets.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 01:16 PM
rubber band guns that you make for kids that shoot rubber bands are firearms.

Also, using a rubberband and a paperclip bent in a V-fashion and propelled using the rubberband between two fingers (much like a slingshot effect) would also be considered a firearm (in "Joisy"). I suppose slingshots are also firearms.:cuss:

kingpin008
January 1, 2009, 01:40 PM
rubber band guns that you make for kids that shoot rubber bands are firearms.

Uhh...no. Firearms operate by harnessing a small explosive charge (primer and gunpowder) to propel a projectile. A rubber band gun uses stored kinetic energy to propel rubber bands.

I guess I don't quite understand your post.

nalioth
January 1, 2009, 02:51 PM
That would depend entirely on your City's particular ordinances. Look them up, and consult with your Chief of Police.Ask your City Attorney instead (that's who the Chief of Police is gonna put you on hold and call when you call him, anyway).

Jim K
January 1, 2009, 03:01 PM
Inspector's attempt at sarcasm is pointless and a bit paranoid. A rubber band gun does not use an explosive.

Jim

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 03:05 PM
It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of
an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is
a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or
is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.


According to those items underlined, a rubber band and paper clip would be considered a firearm, since it is capable of bodily harm (according to the description of NJ Law). I merely stated and paraphrased what I read. Someone could easily use a rubber band and paper clip to put out a person's eye.

Jim Watson
January 1, 2009, 03:13 PM
Lots of times it is not the letter of the law nor the intent of the law, but the application of the law. If somebody influential or a cop in the precinct objects to you popping primers, you can get a world of hassle and lawyer bills, win or lose.

Do you think you could make a rubber band gun powerful enough to stick up the liquor store? It would be a firearm under postal regulations because it would "expel a projectile by... other mechanical action... with sufficient force to be used as a weapon."


431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 03:16 PM
Inspector's attempt at sarcasm is pointless and a bit paranoid. A rubber band gun does not use an explosive.

Jim Keenan

I beg your pardon.

subknave
January 1, 2009, 05:02 PM
I think there was some confusion on Inspectors post. He was referring SPECIFICALLY to New Jersey law which reads differently than the federal regulations. In NEW JERSEY I believe a BB gun is considered a firearm.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 05:22 PM
Yes, I was referring to the NJ law that was quoted in a previous post.
Since the OP did not make it clear where they are from, we must assume the worst case scenario as far as laws are concerned.

wyocarp
January 1, 2009, 05:29 PM
Firearm. Any weapon, including a
starter gun, which will or is designed to or
may readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; the
frame or receiver of any such weapon; any
firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any
destructive device; but the term shall not
include an antique firearm.

That would include numerous types of construction tools including the ones that actually use a .22 caliber shell to drive a nail.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 1, 2009, 05:33 PM
You are right, and according to NJ law, it would also include nail guns that operate on compressed air and an air compressor.

I've actually held the safety back on a framing nail gun and shot nails at least 1/2" into kiln-dried spruce studs from a distance of approximately 12".

If you enjoyed reading about "Primer discharge legality?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!