bullet contemplation


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moooose102
January 1, 2009, 03:31 PM
ok, i like to shoot my 45/70. the biggest drawback is of course, the cost. big bullets just are not cheap. i do not cast my own yet, so at this point, it isnt an option. so today, i find out i can buy raineer plated bullet for the same price as remington jacketed. if i was only hunting, it would be a no brainer, it would be remington jacketed bullets all the way. but for just plinking, what do you think? are plated bullets easier on the bore? is there any reason to abandon the remingtons for the raineers?

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rcmodel
January 1, 2009, 03:37 PM
NO.

A copper plated jacket is going to have the same effect on a bore as a copper jacketed bullet.

Copper is copper, regardless of how they put it on there.

The only thing easier on barrels is grease lubed cast bullets.

These here ones cost less then half as much as thier plated 45-70 bullets though.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/97.php

rcmodel

rfwobbly
January 1, 2009, 04:15 PM
Moose Man -

While I usually defer to the wisdom of RC, and continue to respect his insights and accuracy, I may have to cordially disagree this time... at least long enough to be convinced otherwise.

A copper jacket is "copper" in name alone. It's actually copper alloy sheet, which is then stamped and formed into the required shape. There are any number of common alloys used, but all seem to make the copper harder. That is, the copper is no longer soft and pliable. You cannot mare a copper jacketed bullet with your fingernail.

Whereas on a plated bullet, the plating is done with nearly pure copper. It is electro-deposited onto the lead one molecule at a time in a process similar to the chrome or nickel plating you may be familiar with. The copper on a plated bullet is then pretty close to dead soft. You can mar the surface easily.

So I believe the bore wear rate using plated bullets would therefore be somewhere between pure lead bullets and jacketed bullets.

Just my humble belief.

Mal H
January 1, 2009, 05:18 PM
'Fraid I'll have to agree with rfwobbly including his preface. IOW, with all due respect, I have to disagree with rcmodel's emphatic "NO".

Plated bullets like the Rainier's are a good deal softer than traditional jacketed bullets. As rfw said, they are somewhere between lead and jacketed, and a little closer to lead on that 3-point scale. That's one reason why you use lead loading data for plated bullets when no specific data is available.

Now, if rcm is talking about copper fouling on the lands and grooves, then yes, there won't be much difference in that respect. But, for actual wear on those same lands and grooves, it would take much longer to wear out a barrel using plated bullets than with jacketed bullets, all other factors being equal.

rcmodel
January 1, 2009, 05:20 PM
You are very likely right.
The alloy used in bullet jackets is harder then pure copper.
But it also contains about 8% zinc, and 2% tin, or somewhere in that range.

This gives it a lower coefficient of friction then pure copper, even though it is harder.

It remains however, that there is nothing slicker used for bullets then a grease-lubed lead alloy bullet.
So if bore life is a strong consideration, that is the bullet to use.

The fact of the matter is however, that accelerated barrel wear is mostly caused by the erosion from the burning powder and hot gasses being driven down the barrel every shot.

Not so much a factor in moooose102's 45-70 as in a .220 Swift, but it's still the biggest baddie by far.

rcmodel

Mal H
January 1, 2009, 05:36 PM
The fact of the matter is however, that accelerated barrel wear is mostly caused by the erosion from the burning powder and hot gases being driven down the barrel every shot.Exactly. And that is precisely what I had in mind when I said, "all other factors being equal."

If you can possibly have the same flame front temperature, unburned powder blasting effect, pressure, etc., etc., then and only then does the slight wear on the barrel by the bullet come into play.

That's why barrels notoriously wear out from the leade forward and not from the muzzle back. If most of the wear was from the bullet, it should be at the area where the bullet is sliding fastest and causing the most heat from friction - near the muzzle. But the effects of the ultra-high temp gases is far more detrimental to a barrel. The .220 Swift rcm cited is a prime example. There is a huge amount of extremely hot gases at very high pressure in a relatively small area near the chamber causing a barrel to wear out faster than almost any other caliber.

rcmodel
January 1, 2009, 05:44 PM
The only genuine concern you need to have about jacketed bullet barrel wear is with century old rifles with soft steel barrels, and very deep rifling designed for lead bullets only.

Bore friction from jacketed bullets causing wear IS a real factor in these rifles.

Modern heat-treated barrel steel used in todays rifles?
Not so much at all!

rcmodel

Walkalong
January 1, 2009, 06:16 PM
I seriously doubt a plated bullet is easier enough on the bore than jacketed to be a consideration. I would shoot lead in that thumper.

The Berrys have some type of lube or oil residue on them. They are slicker than Raniers or X-Treme plated bullets.

The X-Treme 158 SWC and the Berrys 158 HP is the same length, and when I load them to the same O.A.L. (which gives equal case capacity) in .38 Spl and downloaded .357, it takes .1 more grains of fast powders with the Berrys. They don't give as much "start resistance" as the X=Treme bullets. It takes that .1 more powder to get the same velocity and settle the ES & SD to the same level.

So, I guess I am saying the Berrys would be easier on the bore than the Ranier or the X-Treme, but I still don't think it would be enough to really consider it all that much easier on bores than jacketed, but some.

Jim Watson
January 1, 2009, 06:27 PM
I'd be surprised if the Rainiers were as accurate as the Remingtons.

moooose102
January 1, 2009, 10:30 PM
ok, so, i have only ever shot lead bullets in my 45 acp, and that is pretty much for plinking at cans, apples, pumpkins, whatever i can shoot that is fun. i have not done any kind of accuracy testing. how accurate is a cast bullet compared to a jacketed bullet? i am not looking for hair slitting differences, but do cast bullets group close to what jacketed bullets do? if i shoot 2" groups now, can i expect that from a quality cast bullet? also, rc model, any idea why those berrys say single shot, as opposed to multi-shot? will they slip in the case while in the tube magazine?

Walkalong
January 2, 2009, 01:00 AM
but do cast bullets group close to what jacketed bullets do?As good or better. Bullseye shooters use lead.

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