[Phydeaux642]

This is not a bashing thread of any kind. I recently purchased a RIA compact 1911 and put a set of Crimson Trace grips on it. I haven't been able to shoot it yet, but I'm curious. Do those of you that have them and use them feel they were worth the $200-$300 that you paid for them? Do you feel that they would/have make/made a difference in a defensive situation? Or, have you used them and decided to take them off for whatever reason.

[76shuvlinoff]

Certainly there will be voices from both camps but I just got a set for my XD40 for Christmas from my wife and I'll be damned if I'm going to condemn them ..yet. :D I really have not had enough time with them but so far they sure do point out how important trigger control is on your shooting.

And on the other hand it IS something that can fail ..like all equipment can.

[highcap]

I put them on my wifes carry auto, but perfer nights sights for myself. I coat pocket carry and obviously laser is worthless shooting from a jaclet pocket.

[Redhawk1]

Sure they are, I prefer iron sights to my Crimson Trace grips, but I can use either well.

[chriso]

Im going to get a pair for my glock... I had a Pair for my XD " I sold that gun" but I loved them they are great for HD situation or just another back up sighting system...

[Old Fuff]

While we are all told to use a "flash sight picture" (it's the modern way) sometimes you may find yourself in a situation where an eye-level shot can't be taken. However if you can get that dot on the target you can still fire an accurate shot. Also there have been some cases where, when the bad guy noticed that red dot on his shirt he simply gave up right then & there. The true value of the sights isn't always known until you really need them.

Then you'll understand.

[Phydeaux642]

Crimson Trace sent me their newest DVD recently and it made several interesting points about using the grips, one of which Old Fuff touched on. It's worth watching if you can get ahold of it. I should get a better idea about them when I get to shoot this gun, but hearing of your experiences is also useful.

[Eightball]

The grips allow me to shoot accurately even in a less-than-ideal situation, or with less-than-stellar sight pictures. I still practice with the irons, but packing something with the laser is a comfort, IMO---because you can't be guranteed that if you have to draw your firearm you'll have the time, or even the physical space to take a proper stance or align the sights perfectly.

And, unlike some of the shooting wizards present on THR, I can't get out and practice as much as I would like so that I can hit the backside of a guy's eyeball, blindfolded in the dark, while on fire--yet the CT helps me in practice, and will allow you to (hopefully) become more proficient with your firearm of choice.

[model of 1905]

IMO anything that you can use to help gain an advantage is a MUST consider especially when you have 56 year old eyes. I have them on my 1911 and practice 90% iron sights 10 % laser. I would not give up my CT grips until they come up with something better.

[possum]

Are Crimson Trace Grips Worth It?
to some people yes they are, to me, i have no need for a laser.

[YK]

One could debate practical value for a civilian user, such as probability of a need for an important shot from an unusual position. Regardless of that, CT grips are an exceptional training tool, and very valuable low-light tool.

[kostner]

Have them on my SW442 and like them a lot. They are worth their weight in gold at night and will light up the target.Being 62 with failing eye sight I need all the help I can get.

[rondog]

Well, I also have a RIA Compact, with Lasergrips on it. I think they're the shizz for s/d situations, but don't count on them to produce magical results with target shooting. They're only "dead-on" at whatever distance you zero them, at closer or farther distances, there's a convergence/divergence of the dot and POI.

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

I use them and night sights on my duty gun, my scores have risen +30 points. For tired old eyes they really help when its hard to focus on the sights and intended target. Yea Crimson trace are "AWSOME"

[twoclones]

I've put CT grips on my daily CCW and my larger wilderness defense revolver. I really like them and recommend laser for any self defense handgun.

[FoMoGo]

I practice a lot of point shooting, and the laser makes unloaded indoor practice a LOT easier... I need to get a set.


Jim

[dmazur]

Crimson Trace's ads touch on the point that it is an option, or an additional tool. You can use the iron sights, if you have time for a sight picture, or you can use the laser dot, if you can see it.

I agree that it is a good training aid. Practice dry-firing until you can eliminate the "dot jump", and you will see the difference when using iron sights, too.

I believe the CT product is overdesigned and overbuilt. They are a very rugged product. Sure, things can fail, but the CT's aren't likely to, if you stay on top of battery life...

I've put CT grips on my daily CCW and my larger wilderness defense revolver.

I found out that CT makes a model for the "short barrel" Ruger SBH models (4-5/8 and 5-1/2), but it is described as fitting the Vaqueros. Ruger grip sizes are quite confusing, so this is not a major error on CT's part. Just a hint for any SBH owners - CT's for Vaqueros fit the two short barrel (smaller grip) models.

[ultradoc]

I am happy with mine. They are a bit expensive though. Great customer support too.

[rondog]

I got lucky with mine. Somebody PM'd me on another forum and offered me a lightly used set for an Officers Model for $155, they were in perfect condition and complete. Basic black too, nothing goofy looking.

[KBintheSLC]

I don't care for them... I recommend learning to point shoot instinctively. It is much faster.

[krs]

funny you said that , Ron, 'cause a guy PM'd me on another forum and offered me the goofy set for an Officer size 1911 for $100. and I took them. They're the only sight I practice with on my Colt New Agent and for close range shooting they've been great.

I did have a mysterious loss of zero though, and I guess it was because one of my gip screws loosened. I snugged them all now and re-zeroed the CT and so far they've been good again.

I was maybe too gentle with the screws because of the unfamiliar to me alloy frame.

The only way I can figure that I might not be able to see the dot at the ranges I'm using, 7 -15 yds., is if target was in full bright sunlight and up here that's so unlikely it's a joke.

[IMTHDUKE]

CTs are no substitute for iron sights....that established first, they are an aid to off hand close range or you in a position that iron sights aiming is difficult....as lying on your back or side.

http://photos.gafana.com/photos/1076252350996587757364.share.jpg
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/1456252570996532507985.share.jpg
http://photos.gafana.com/photos/0976252430996505261554.share.jpg

[kd7nqb]

I can tell you that the only thing stopping me from owning a set for my M&P is the $250 price tag. And its not that I dont think they are worth the price its that just about anything with a $250 price tag is out of my range at the moment. So yes to me they would be worth it.

[SrDedosRapidos]

Learning how to point shoot is free :D

I do like them though. Like many, the price stops me. They're very inconspicuous and i like that they dont have a lot to them.

[TurboJeff]

I like them for dry firing practice at home. They help with trigger control practice on my 642.

[jibjab]

I have them on a 1911 .45 Gov. and I really like them :) this is mostly a HD pistol.

[MICHAEL T]

Don't really see the need for them on a carry pistol. I belive you will play chase the dot instead of shooting , Time lost .

[IMTHDUKE]

Just wondering if some of the posters have ever really used CT

[dmazur]

Well, yes I've used my Commander with the CT's both on and off, against IDPA targets in practice sessions.

I'm somewhat amazed at the difference they make. For the same shot interval, the group size is smaller with the CT's on (for me, anyway.)

I can get the same size groups with more time to line up the iron sights and get a good sight picture, but if I hurry my shots, the groups open up.

I'm not talking about a really large difference, just 4" groups vs. 8" groups at 15 yds. 3 round string in approx. 3 seconds for each test.

Not scientific, but I believe it's faster to point the dot and squeeze than it is to line up sights.

Maybe with a lot more practice, I'll get better with the iron sights... ?

[swmp9jrm]

IMO anything that you can use to help gain an advantage is a MUST consider especially when you have 56 year old eyes.
+1 on this - middle of the night, BG appears, I need all the help these 60 yr old eyes can get. :what:Won't be taking mine off.

[lanternlad1]

My wife has them on her 642. They came in real handy when some punk tried to get into her car at a stop light. She put the dot right on his nose and he ran off without her firing a shot.

Guns are an effective deterrent, guns with lasers doubly so IMO. A gun says "Try anything stupid, and I'm going to shoot you.". A gun with a laser says "Try anything stupid, I'm going to shoot you, and I'm not going to miss."

[jaydubya]

I have Crimson Trace grips on three of my handguns, S&W 637 (the first to get them), 686+ and Browning High Power. I would not buy a handgun that Crimson Trace did not make grips for -- that is how sold on them I am. I am somewhat of a special case though: at 77, without my glasses on, I cannot even SEE the iron sights, much less use them. I practice with the High Power and one of the revolvers (exclusively double action) weekly at 5-10 yards, fifty rounds each, half with iron sights (glasses on) and half with lasers. There is no question in my mind which makes me a better shot. Does the red dot stagger around? You bet it does. Do I get almost all my shots within the nine ring of a life-size silhouette target. You bet I do. Am I as fast as I was fifty years ago? You bet I'm not. But I'm faster with lasers than with iron sights.

Cordially, Jack

[Big Bill]

I can't understand why they cost so much and until I do understand I won't buy them.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

"at this time, I cannot afford" -- so I won't be putting them on anytime soon.

Hopefully, like a lot of technology, the price will eventually come down.

[Dienekes]

Some years back one of our officers tried one of the early type laser units on his Glock 19. At the time we did a fair amount of night fire. He brought his toy out to the range while everyone else either used a light, Harries style, or went with the white dots and muzzle flash. He was by far the slowest, chasing his dot.

About five years ago I won a CT unit. My wife had a M37 Smith and she wanted to put it on her gun, so we opted for that one. After a few years she took it off and we sold it on the web. The objections we had to it were that with any kind of decent firing grip the laser was going to go on, whether you wanted it on or not; due to grip design the gun's recoil hurt like hell even compared to the stock grips (since changed, I hear); and the whole lashup just slowed matters up compared to doing serious night fire. With a decent flashlight I have light or not as I wish; it is fairly blinding; and If I light up something that needs shooting, I am going to be shooting NOW. All I need is a flash sight picture at social distances.

As for training, there's always dry fire or, with a wheelgun, ball & dummy. Sight alignment and trigger control are mental processes, not something that comes in a box.

Sorry if this busts anybody's bubble, but I don't think they belong in the 3 feet, 3 shots, 3 seconds world. The money's better spent on practice ammo, IMHO.

[IMTHDUKE]

Well, I know that settles it for me....throwin all mine in the trash:D

[4v50 Gary]

I'm not throwing mine in the trash.

[glockman19]

I have them on my 642, night sights on all my other guns.

I'm not sure they're right for every situation but I find them very helpful in point shooting from a pocket pull.

Also, What would you do if you were a perp and saw that little red light on your chest? I'd freeze and move very slowly if at all.

very intimidating.

[IMTHDUKE]

I'm not throwing mine in the trash.

Yeah, that's my point...just because some guy didn't know how to use them or thought he had to follow the dot....too many satisfied customers to ditch em...me being one of them.

[firinginfenton]

I have them on my snub nose and LOVE them. Great dry fire practice and verifies trigger control.:D

[Geezer59]

The objections we had to it were that with any kind of decent firing grip the laser was going to go on, whether you wanted it on or not
Not sure if yours was one of the early models, but with the current front-activation switch CT grips it's relatively easy to learn how to control that inadvertent activation. I've got CT lasers on two of my 1911's and also two J-frames, and wouldn't be without them on a carry piece. I did have your same problem at the beginning of the first "Combat Pistol" class in which I used them, but quickly adapted in the later stages of the course.
the gun's recoil hurt like hell even compared to the stock grips (since changed, I hear)
Yes, the newer model LG-405 (flush grip) and LG-305 (extended grip) are about as comfortable a grip as is available for lightweight J-frames, while still being readily concealable.

Obviously, I'm a believer and really like the products. I'm well aware they're not the answer for everyone and for all situations, but they work very well for me. Cheers!

[The Ground Truth]

I have used them and don't care for them much. People get too fixated on the red dot and take longer to shoot than if they used the iron sights to begin with. I would use the money on ammo for more trigger time.

[KBintheSLC]

Just wondering if some of the posters have ever really used CT

I have used them, and as mentioned before, I don't care for them. I believe that they actually make me slower than just point shooting. I tend to get distracted and focus too much on the laser, not on the threat.

Anyway, if lasers are so great, why haven't they been more welcome by competitive shooting rings and combat professionals?

I have yet to see a competitive shooter use lasers... even for fun or practice. By the time they get the laser on the first target, they could have knocked down the 6 steel drop plates by just instinctively point shooting.

[Whole Hog]

How well do they work for a left-hander? I've never had a chance to even handle a set, but it sure looks like the laser would interfere with thumb placement.

[IMTHDUKE]

Anyway, if lasers are so great, why haven't they been more welcome by competitive shooting rings and combat professionals?


Because CT did not design them for competitive shooting. As for the combat professionals...that's the little red dot a Seal team member, Special ops etc. puts on your chest coming from a rifle.

CT for a handgun are great, if you can use them, if not it's not required that you buy them....whatever cranks your tractor.

[mgregg85]

I really like mine on my p3at.

[dmazur]

Washington State (and perhaps others) considers laser sights that project a dot to be an unfair advantage and they are illegal for hunting.

Kind of a backwards argument, but if the State considered they were less helpful, because the shooter "chased the dot around", I doubt they would be illegal.

By the way, Washington State is also negative on muzzleloaders and optical sights, 209 primers, etc.

I like living here, but occasionally the State do tend to be a might bit fussy. :)

[76shuvlinoff]

How well do they work for a left-hander? I've never had a chance to even handle a set, but it sure looks like the laser would interfere with thumb placement.

Left handed and I have a front activated unit on my XD40 ( and like em!) Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but with two a two handed grip I can easily block the beam with my right thumb. I'm not taking them (or the thumb) off yet though.

[fingerbanger]

i have no complaints with mine. when you pull a shot, you know you pulled it. as a training aid they are fantastic. In a real situation "let's hope i never find out." i do believe if nothing else i would be more confident with them than without. that said, most of the time at the range it is turned off. also i have considered that the laser to a bad guy's eye may be one hell of an advantage that i could capitalize on. admittedly i am a no expert on tactics, but in my mind i could see scenarios were the line between deadly force and non lethal self defense is a laser flash away.

[Kind of Blued]

I love 'em.

No matter how much I practice, I simply don't trust that I will be able to focus on my front sight when a 250 lb. knife-wielding fellow is running toward me.

I imagine having a big red dot on his chest will help me immensely.

If the fellow hasn't begun running at me yet, the red laser in his eye will probably be a good deterrent as well.

[Boaterguy]

My Kimber Custom TLE II came with CT grips and Tritium sights. Takes a little getting used to but I wouldn't trade them. I practice with both just to be proficient, although my primary CCW does not have them.

[Sebring Pop]

I was very lucky to find a used set for $150 for my Smith "J" frame. This is my carry gun and I would never be without them. I see no need to put a set on anything but a carry gun. My "J" frame is my carry gun and I have shot quite a bit using the sights and have a lot more confidence in my ability to use my gun if a situation ever comes up.

[Generic Name]

I've been interested in Crimson Trace grips since they first came out. I never bought a pair because I was disappointed in the quality of the engineering on the ones I inspected. The batteries, wiring, soldering, and switches I looked at were not worth the money and I wouldn't want to trust my life to the reliability of the design/components. That was a long time ago though and I'm glad to see they're introducing new products. Maybe the new designs are an improvement in components and quality. Maybe I'm being too critical of something that's essentially a toy. IMHO shooters would have been much better served if some other company with better design, manufacturing, and marketing talent had held the Crimson Trace patents all these years.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Generic Name, That is another reason I don't buy them. With open sights, at least you always have them. Just my luck, as soon as I need the Crimson red dot in a gunfight, the darn thing wouldn't light up.

Then I would have to get used to the open sights mighty quickly--so, I might as well be used to them NOW!

While we are on that subject, I should also be practicing my shots in various low-lighting situations.

I wonder if it is pouring rain out and if they get wet all the way into the connection to the grip frame if they will still light. Has anyone tried theirs underwater to see how they fare getting WET?

[jaydubya]

Inspector asks: I wonder if it is pouring rain out and if they get wet all the way into the connection to the grip frame if they will still light. Has anyone tried theirs underwater to see how they fare getting WET?

Not meaning to flame, but that's a long reach for a reason not to buy them. My CT-equipped handguns are for HD/SD. I don't go wandering around in the rain, or swimming in pools with them. If you don't like them, don't buy them.

Jack

[IMTHDUKE]

Inspector asks: I wonder if it is pouring rain out and if they get wet all the way into the connection to the grip frame if they will still light. Has anyone tried theirs underwater to see how they fare getting WET?

I wonder if you have a mud slide and they get messy...how they work....? GEEEEEESSSSSSS

[Fred Fuller]

I've used 'em on my J frame since first being exposed to them in a training environment at Andy Stanford's Snubby Summit in December 2005. They make a poor crutch for someone looking for an easy way out, but are a useful adjunct to iron sights- especially when the gun can't be gotten up to eye level before firing. Do a session of Southnarc's ECQC and see how you feel about them then.

Worth it? I sure think so. There might be a chance that little red dot will keep me from having to shoot someone sometime. I'll sure settle for that if it gets me out of paying 100X or more the cost of a set to a defense attorney.

lpl

[waterhouse]

I tried a set on a 1911 and didn't care for them. I don't think they helped me shoot faster or more accurately.

I tried some with a 642 and bought them within a week of trying it. I got shots off way faster and the shots were right where I wanted them.

I have many more years of shooting the 1911, so perhaps I'm just used to finding the front sight more quickly, but on that little snub they helped a great deal.

So for me, they are worth the cost for some of my guns and not for others.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Asking how something on a firearm will work if it gets wet is a totally reasonable question.

The OP asked if the grips are worth it. I simply asked a question with respect to durability in inclement weather.

I would rather find out NOW than after shelling out $250+ for them only to find that they may not work in the rain and rain could possibly ruin them beyond any warranty. That is simply why I asked.

Heavy rain is different than swimming with it or tossing it in a mud bog.

Suppose your car gets stuck in a downpour and you have to walk 2 miles in the pouring rain (which I have had to do once, and I was wet when I got home just like I came out of a swimming pool).

Why take it as a personal attack?:rolleyes:

What should I do if my grips get wet? Water will not damage the laser system, even if it is totally submerged. We recommend that you dry the battery compartment within 8 hours after total submergence and make sure no debris have collected on the laser lens.

http://www.lasersightshop.com/lasergrip_faq.htm

There, I found out the answer to my own question.

[Drail]

The only problem I see with laser sights is having to depend on batteries which typically fail when you really need them and placing more faith in your ability to hit with the laser than with the sights. I have seen too many competitors at matches suddenly fail when their batteries go out on the red dot sights. But if you like them.....

[dmazur]

I practice with a flashlight and get a sight picture with the iron sights. Takes a little longer than daylight, but not much.

I use the red dot for practice, to see how much I pull the dot off when dry firing. I also know the dot is most likely there in case I have to shoot from an awkward position. (I change the batteries before they fail...they're lithium, with a 7 year life. I change them after 2 years.)

So, I'm trying to honor CT's intent (at least, as I interpret their product descriptions), which is to use it as an option, not a replacement for iron sights. I don't believe CT has ever advocated relying on their sights instead of the iron sights. If folks are doing that, well, it may not be the best idea...however, some admit they just flat-out can't see the iron sights anymore. For them, it may be a way they can feel they can still hit what they aim at.

Part of the reason for the flashlight is that the laser doesn't illuminate the target for identification. Oh yeah, you know it's 6' tall and is an unexpected visitor in your house. What if it's your son or nephew and you didn't get the phone call?

[FLA2760]

Here is a link to the PRO Arms podcast on the CT laser grips. Mas Ayoob is one of the reviewers. Very good podcasts. ;)


http://proarms.podbean.com/2009/01/04/018-crimson-trace-laser-grips-and-laser-sights-review/

[Sig 556]

the fixed iron sights on my beretta 9mm sucks, in low light conditions, they are useless. After installing CTC, I have confidence at what I shot at. I will be installing a pair on my J-Frame Taurus 617 revolver soon. I just purchased a Glock 19 with night sights and they work Great, no CTC will be needed on that gun.:D

[IMTHDUKE]

Good info on the prod cast....thanks

[Mr.510]

I think a laser can be a very useful tool. Unless you cannot use irons due to vision impairment a laser is NOT a replacement for iron sights and should never be used as such. But... as soon as my weapon clears leather I can, if I choose to push the button, see *exactly* where a shot will hit. My body position does not matter. Strong hand, weak hand, sand or blood in my dominant eye, thug #2 trying to get the weapon away, the dot is always within an inch or two of actual POI, regardless of range. If I can see the dot with either or both eyes I can hit that spot. I also know that if the dot isn't on the bad guy the round IS going to miss and may hit somebody else. Like anything, a laser can fail. That's why it should not be a replacement for iron sights or practice with them. My carry weapon has tritium night sights and a laser. :) A red laser is relatively useless in bright daylight. A green laser is better in daylight but the beam can be seen by the naked eye at night, tracing a line directly to your weapon. A laser is another tool that could be the difference between life and death. For either you, a loved one, or an innocent bystander three blocks away. It does take practice to become proficient with a laser, like anything else. And it can fail, like anything else.


On the subject of Crimson Trace and others: I never liked the feel of lasergrips or the location of the button, which can easily be pressed accidentally with "death grip" under stress. I also found that on a friend's 1911 with CT grips my trigger finger would sometimes block the laser while exercising good trigger discipline. I bought a Lasermax guide rod laser for my XD45C. The on button is in the center of the takedown lever, which is the trigger finger index point that I had previously trained myself for. The "button" is actually a detented sliding shaft, like a shotgun safety. Centered is off, pushed either way is on. The Lasermax is also a pulsed laser, meaning it blinks very rapidly. This makes picking up the moving dot much quicker and also extends battery life. The only downside I've found with this particular laser is short battery life. It will only run about an hour due to it's extremely small size - the whole thing including batteries is contained completely within the guide rod! Batteries are about $4 a set in bulk off eBay. I switch out to "practice batteries" for range work and always keep a fresh set installed for carry.


I suggest that anyone who can afford a laser really ought to get whichever one suits them and Practice! Practice! Practice! If, after putting a couple thousand rounds downrange with the laser you still don't like it, you can sell it on Gunbroker or eBay for 80% of what you paid. I guarantee you're shooting will have improved more than enough to offset the 20% loss you take on the laser itself. You can SEE a flinch or pull in real time with a laser. You can also watch where the POA goes under recoil. You can trace the exact path the weapon takes while drawing, holstering, and changing positions. I've had my wife watch my right thigh for a "flash of red" when I practice a fast draw. Once in a while when I was tired the dot would sweep across the outer inch or two of my thigh. :uhoh: I *never* would have known that without practicing with a laser.


Used properly a laser can be a tactical advantage and I'll take all the advantage I can get. :D

[BobGrand]

Just pick up a J frame S&W for Christmas. After testing one out at the local gun shop, my wife said I needed the one with the laser if she was going to be able to shoot accurately. Knowing she was interested was enough for me to spend the extra. Smith sells them as a package on their 642. I can shoot my Bersa 45 accurately at 10 yrds with a 2" circle with the iron sights. As I get used to the 642 the laser is really helping my control. I will keep it on even after I've mastered the small frame. I have a bum middle finger on my dominant hand and the switch helps me remember to "get a grip" as I retrain that finger. When at the range, I don't have a problem with dot chasing, I point the barrel toward the target and unless I'm not paying attention, the dot is close to my intended POI already.

The comment about being on only at the specific distance for which the laser was set assumes the laser was targeted for exact POI. Mine is sighted in parallel alignment with the sights so the distance to the target doesn't matter. This means the dot is actually off POI by about 1/2" down and to the right, but that's plenty close enough for the need and that 1/2" translates out to any reasonable range.

The key as has already been mentioned several times is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Then practice some more.

[creativetownsman]

BobGrand
The comment about being on only at the specific distance for which the laser was set assumes the laser was targeted for exact POI. Mine is sighted in parallel alignment with the sights so the distance to the target doesn't matter. This means the dot is actually off POI by about 1/2" down and to the right, but that's plenty close enough for the need and that 1/2" translates out to any reasonable range.

Could BobGrand or anyone else elaborate further on this? I'm likely to purchase the LG-405 shortly. I've looked at videos re sighting in and understand they're factory-sighted for 50'. I'll have to assume for purposes of my inquiry that at 50' the red dot shows the POI.

Please help me understand what you're saying better-I do understand that you're saying it will be accurate to 1/2" to any (reasonable) range (what does that mean?) WITH YOUR METHOD but I don't understand how you get parallel alignment to the sights unless you do the INITIAL ALIGNMENT with the iron sights and thereafter disregard further adjustments re the red dot ON THE TARGET.

Am I correct?

Update: I think that I understand better having watched the video with the two black 'pasties' (pun intended), with the one to the right (representing the laser position in relation to the bore of the gun) about 1/2" and down about 1" from the other one (representing the bore sight).

[DHJenkins]

I loved them, but the liability thing ruined it.

[creativetownsman]

What are you referring to, DHJenkins?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

The laser is going to be perfectly straight (just like aiming through the iron sites is perfectly straight). You need to figure at what distance you want the laser to meet the bullet.

When you have it adjusted for that distance, other distances will be off by the amount of trajectory for the bullet, just like if you were using your iron sights (except, perhaps off to one side or the other by a very small amount).

If you are aiming at COM on human-size targets, I don't think you need to worry too much if there is an inch or two of variance due to the trajectory of the bullet.

I agree, DHJenkins, what the heck are you talking about (the LIABILITY THING)????

[RippinSVT]

the fixed iron sights on my beretta 9mm sucks, in low light conditions, they are useless. After installing CTC, I have confidence at what I shot at. I will be installing a pair on my J-Frame Taurus 617 revolver soon. I just purchased a Glock 19 with night sights and they work Great, no CTC will be needed on that gun.

No you won't. They don't offer 'em for he 617, I already checked for mine...and it's not a J-frame, it's their "compact" frame, which is larger.

[creativetownsman]

What's so great about night sights on the G19? If it's pitch black out, wouldn't one be better off with the CTG laser sights?

I don't see where nightsights help all that much because the only thing one may see, without the aid of a flashlight, would be the sights, and if you have a flashlight you could use the iron sights and not need the nightsights (though they're certainly better than iron sights without a laser). Does that make sense?

This shooter purchased LG-405's a few hours ago on sale from Midway. I'll report back after I form my opinions. It will be some time before I make final conclusions but I'll give my initial impressions about a week or so after receipt of them. I hope they maintain their 'zero' after shooting +P in a 442.

And what's this all about shooting bear with a .22WMR? Some kind of joke? Maybe through a rifle...?

[renegade1alpha]

After years of shooting and teaching people to shoot, I do find that lasers do serve a purpose. However, I think they should be used by people who have lots of experience using open sights. I say this because if a person is a novice shooter and relies ONLY on seeing that little red dot to place his/her bullet, then they will be surprised if and when the batteries fail. And they do fail. If they are not an experienced shooter and can't use the sights that are conveniently provided on the weapon, then they are more of a hazard to innocent bystanders if they have to fire their weapon.

[creativetownsman]

Apparently dry-firing using the laser helps in becoming more proficient using the iron sights, and aids in point shooting, so one may not say there's really any downside to them, IMHO. I'm sold on them, at least in theory. Time will tell.

I'm also tired of outdated and outmoded technology, after 22 years of shooting handguns. I look forward to receipt of my CT laser grips.

[jackrabbit101]

they are definetly worth the money . . . i know if i seen a dot on me that it would certainly be an intimidating sight

[BobGrand]

You are correct, Creativetownsman. When using the laser for sighting, I do not worry about the down and to the right alignment of the laser to the bore alignment. POI will be within a small error margin up to 15-20 yards (my personal "reasonable range"/distance). However, when I am at the local gun range, I shoot using both the laser and shutting it off and using the iron sights so I know I can do both reliably. I must admit that I am not nearly as accurate with the 642 as I am with my 45 semi-auto, but expect that to come with practice, practice, practice.

Hope this helps to clarify what I meant.

Bob

[yongxingfreesty]

been thinking about it for the ruger LCP

[dmw16]

In a high-stress and/or panicked shooting situation I see no reason not to have them.

[mmartin101808]

When I bought my Springfield Champion it came with CT grips, and to be honest I'm still out to lunch on if I like them or not. Part of me really likes the red dot, if anything for the crap your pants factor if your the bad guy. On the other hand I'm just as fast, if not faster using the night sights. I'm also concerned I'll get use to using the laser, and when I switch out to a weapon w/o ct I'll waste time in a situation trying to engage the laser when there isn't one to engage. In other words, I'm afraid I'll become dependant upon it.

[sohcgt2]

As an American I believe in bigger, better, faster, more... That said, any advantage you can gain in the gun fight we all hope to avoid is worth the cost if you value your life. I assume your purchase of the 1911 was to give you an advantage over the baseball bat in the backseat. The addition of tritium night sights to help speed sight picture aquisition is also an advantage, the laser grips are an advantage, a custome trigger job is an advantage. Any and all improvements you can afford that result in an advantage over the BG are beneficial to you. The addition of laser sights of some type is also helpful as a training aid when coupled with snap caps. It will allow you to dry fire and watch how trigger pull effects point of aim. I have CTC laser grips on both of my primary carry guns and will add them to my BUG in the next few weeks.

[creativetownsman]

Well, I went to the range yesterday with my new Crimson Trace LG-405's on my M442.

Let's face it - you pay a premium but in the same breath they're kind of worth it. I'd have preferred a price of around $189 but they have to make a profit and there's families to support.

(I did purchase mine on sale at Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=263426" - you can place a backorder until the end of the month).

I've found with J iron sights one actually has to point the muzzle down in order to properly align to the target. I was getting pretty good with the iron sights but the CT knocks my reliance on them out of the ballpark. I've had twenty years shooting J-frames and there was always that 'doubt' about having to use them in a SD scenario-that doubt has all but disappeared with only one range trip using the Crimson Trace Lasergrip.

Don't forget your skills with the iron sights and turn off the laser intermittently but the CT's are vastly superior especially for marksmanship. I have never shot that well with a J-frame as I did last night.

I'm quite pleased. I got confused even though I had read the sighting-in instructions beforehand. I caught my mistake but then they were way off.

I had to waste a few rounds and make major adjustments to elevation. Remember to adjust the diode to meet the bullet hole!

Anyway, my sighting-in distance was at 50'; however, because I screwed things up, I brought the target in to 21', sighted in so at least POA resembled POI somewhat, then progressively moved out to 50'. I did not parallel sight, and I feel that once the sweet spot is truly there at 50' I'll leave them alone.

BTW, moved the target back to the maximum 25 yds. (75') and shot a few rounds rapid fire. They all hit and placed somewhere on the silohuette; a couple were COM.

It was also very satisfying to consecutively hit the red COM area on a silhouette target with five shots +P rapid fire at 21'. Remember, this is a J-frame and some shots were in the same hole, rapid-fire.

I intend to really get these sighted in well for this gun, It'll take another range trip to fine-tune them.

Thereafter, I'll extensively dry fire practice with them.

I'm already thinking of getting the CT grips for my Kahr CW9, once they become available.

[Marvin KNox]

Anything that will increase the odds of leaving a gunfight in one piece is worth anything you can afford to pay.

[mgregg85]

Try using the iron sights on a P3AT in very low light, then try using a P3AT with the crimson trace laser in very low light. It makes a huge difference to me, making a difficult pocket pistol easy to aim and use. Of course it is just an option and I do practice with the iron sights too, but I really prefer that laser.

On my XD45 I just use the iron sights and I hope to soon have some tritium sights installed. Real(as in large) iron sights are just about as fast as the laser so I don't feel the need to get the crimson trace yet. Right now I'd rather spend the $100 and have some big dot tritium sights put on. With the P3AT you really don't have the option of tritium unless you want to have the slide machined.

Another problem with iron sights is that you can only focus on one point, so if you focus on the front sight(as I believe you should) then you cannot clearly focus on the target or anything else. With the laser you can focus on what the target is doing and where you are aiming, which I feel is advantageous. When I practice with my P3AT I hold the pistol so that the sights are in my line of sight but I focus on the target and the red dot. I do this so that if the batteries should die or if I lose track of the laser I can immediately transition to the iron sights.

[A-FIXER]

I buy'em because my wife now feels safer with them on now and, it get her to the range with me every time I smile and tell her Honey, I got you some more practice ammo (I really reload them) but she grins and says come'on lets go.... and your getting supper works every time. :D

[BikerRN]

I have a set of Crimson Trace Laser Grips on my new off duty EDC.

As I grow older I find it harder and harder to see the Front Sight without my glasses. I can see the laser, even when I can't see my Front Sight. They are great for allowing me to focus on my target, be it badguy or paper. Thus, I think they are worth what I paid for them times ten.

The laser does not replace the Front Sight, but rather gives me another tool to use at "appropriate" times. I've seen my Front Sight two out of three times IRL, but I was younger then, and my eyesight was better too.

I think it's funny that most of the troops coming back from Iraq and 'stan, at least the ones I know, want lasers on their personal weapons. Maybe they learned something over there that we need to emulate?

BikerRN

[renegade1alpha]

If you are an experienced shooter and you want lasers, get them. If you are NOT an experienced shooter, don't get them until you become an experienced shooter. I say this because new shooters will most likely tend to rely on the laser instead of the provided sights. This is fine when the laser is WORKING but when batteries fail, and they will, (Murphy says so) then you will have to resort to your open sights. And if you can't shoot then, well all you have is big lump in your hand that makes noise and is going to possibly get someone besides your intended target hurt or killed.

Learn to shoot first.

[mrt949]

Have them on the wifes lady smith m60. only way to go.

[jaydubya]

Renegade1alpha said: If you are NOT an experienced shooter, don't get them until you become an experienced shooter.

Sorry, I disagree. What you prescribe takes too long. Indeed, it is an invitation to NOT buy a handgun. I would propose instead that anyone thinking of buying a handgun should restrict their search to those that have laser grips available for them -- and buy them at the same time. Then learn at the range how to shoot both ways: 50% laser, 50% iron sights. Much quicker the competence with both. As for batteries giving out, of course they do! That is why I change the batteries in my fire alarm, lojack and Crimson Trace grips (three of them) every six months.

Renegade1alpha, I'm a long-retired Naval Aviator. Your handle has a military pilot's ring to it. Are you?

Cordially, Jack