Are Wal-mart guns made cheap


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nekwah
January 2, 2009, 09:11 PM
I have relatives who own a gun shop and they say that with the specs on guns that Wal-mart isnt allowed to cheapen the guns at all. Other people say if you pick up a gun in wal-mart it will be lighter than a gun from Cabelas or somewhere. Ive seen lots of controversey with nobody showing any real evidence. Thought i would see what you guys think.

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MikePGS
January 2, 2009, 09:16 PM
I don't see why they would go and make an entirely different batch of guns with different specs just for Wal-mart. I mean I know they're a huge chain but making separate runs would probably negate any benefits they would get from selling to such a huge distributor.

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 2, 2009, 09:18 PM
Is this the same person who told you the 870 was discontinued (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=417107)?

As far as the Walmart quality question, it has come up several times. You should try searching on it.

ljnowell
January 2, 2009, 09:20 PM
No. Nope. Nadda. They are the same guns. I dont think any manufacturer would want thier name stamped on inferior products, no matter where they are sold. Just some anti-Wal Mart talk. Not that there arent lots of reasons for it. When it comes down to it though, most of us couldnt afford to live the way we do without wal mart.

matrem
January 2, 2009, 09:42 PM
"No. Nope. Nadda. They are the same guns."
Hmmmm..Are you positive?
I'm aware of(for starters) one "wal-mart exclusive" contract with a major manufacturer.
I know that this subject has been "beaten to death",so I'll not elaborate any farther..Just make sure you do your "homework" before buying!

nekwah
January 2, 2009, 09:45 PM
Not the same person as the 870 that was a rumor going around. This is something ive discussed a long time. I actually did search it but nothing came up but i might not of used the right keywords.

SMMAssociates
January 2, 2009, 09:59 PM
No accusing WalMart, but it has long been customary for some of the big box stores to offer custom versions of other products - TV's, fridges, etc., with different specs that what might be the same item elsewhere.

Back during the CB craze (around 1975), I ran across a very high quality radio made by E.F. Johnson for sale under their own name, and another look-alike that one of the stores was selling (J.C. Penney, I think) that was marked with Johnson's name, etc., but internally appeared to have been assembled by putting the necessary components into a bag and tossing it about....

From personal experience, the former day job once contracted with K-Mart to make a simple plastic widget that let you carry more than one wire coat hanger in your hand - like while travelling. Working out their shipping arrangements alone was like shooting at a rolling donut with a bow & arrow. Every time I got the latest requirement set, they wanted something else. I wasn't involved in production, though....

Whether they'd do this with guns, I don't know. It was common for big name retailers (think Abercrombie & Fitch) to market their own house-brand guns in the 20th Century (maybe before), and these were made all over the place, but I'm sure some came from major manufacturers like Purdy.... How close to specs, though, I don't know....

I'd call this plausible, although I would expect model number variations and other such "well, it wasn't THIS one" weaseling, as well as "house" names....

Short answer is to look at the thing....

Regards,

RockyMtnTactical
January 2, 2009, 10:07 PM
Nothing you buy at Wal-Mart is any different than what you get anywhere else. Are your Corn Flakes from Wal-Mart just General Mills rejects? Are the movies and video games at Wal-Mart produced on lower quality discs?

Guns at Wal-Mart are the same as anywhere else. I am not sure why these kinds of rumors are so prevalent but it comes up ALL THE TIME. Quite ridiculous.

crushbup
January 2, 2009, 10:09 PM
IIRC, the 10/22 is made in a "Wal-Mart edition." Instead of being lower quality, they are just different barrel lengths and stocks. Wal-Mart gets 'em cheap because they buy 'em by the ton.

RockyMtnTactical
January 2, 2009, 10:12 PM
IIRC, the 10/22 is made in a "Wal-Mart edition." It's slightly chaper, and I think the only real difference is a few more plastic parts, not a general drop in quality.

Do you have a reference of some sort?

ljnowell
January 2, 2009, 10:14 PM
"No. Nope. Nadda. They are the same guns."
Hmmmm..Are you positive?
I'm aware of(for starters) one "wal-mart exclusive" contract with a major manufacturer.
I know that this subject has been "beaten to death",so I'll not elaborate any farther..Just make sure you do your "homework" before buying!

Yes, I am. They do not make identical models of the same gun to cheaper specs for walmart. Thats ridiculous. They may package and item different, meaning set up a 22lr with a certain scope for example, offered at a certain price. But they are not intentionaly going to make their products inferior to sell at wal mart. They still have to warranty the stuff remember?

kershner13
January 2, 2009, 10:19 PM
AS a walmart associate I can say NO we get the same firearms as cabelas and any other store. However walmart has had special walmart only firearms such as the Ruger 10/22 with a longer barrel and walnut stock. but when a walmart store places an order for a certain firearm it comes from the same factory witht he same performance standards as any other store. the reason this comes up is because walmart buys in bulk, and gets a better price. therefore when "JOE" sees the same gun for a lot less at walmart he thinks there is a problem. hope this clears up for some of you.

MisterPX
January 2, 2009, 10:33 PM
Same guns. Wally just get's better pricing. How many 10/22's does your dealer buy? How many come form a distributor (middleman)? How many does Wally buy?

YOu get a better deal when you buy 50000 instead of 50 ;)

jackdanson
January 2, 2009, 10:41 PM
As kershner said, models of the same model # are the exact same. BUT some models aren't the exact same.. they sell Savages without the accutrigger that I haven't seen anywhere else. (and no, they weren't stevens, they were savages.)

agd1953
January 2, 2009, 10:47 PM
I know that with winchester white box 9 mm by UZI function just fine. I also know that with winchester white box 9 mm from wal mart it does not cycle. I'm sure that wal mart sell a cheap product at cheap prices. I (imho) think wal mart products are crap. I sure as hell wouldn't trust my life on wal mart ammo or guns. I also will not shop there because they come into a community and drive all the local business' to close. I will not support them with my hard earn dollar.:cuss:

BeltfedMG
January 2, 2009, 10:48 PM
I work at a distribution center for Wal Mart, the guns Wal Mart sells are just as top line as the ones at any gun shop, they are bought from same place, same time same quality. Anyone who tells you wal mart guns are rejects is a fn reject know it all that dont know ****. Some people just need to get a life, theres alot of people that dont like Wal mart so they spread rumors. They are not true.

BeltfedMG
January 2, 2009, 10:50 PM
Oh, and the reason their guns and ammo is soo much cheaper (as a FFL holder i can not buy guns at dealer price for what Wal mart sells them for) is because they buy in such bulk, and even when they special order a weapon for you it still carries over.

DAVIDSDIVAD
January 2, 2009, 11:03 PM
Yes, companies are going to spend the money on extra equipment to make crappy guns which will only be sold at wal mart.:banghead:

zammyman
January 2, 2009, 11:05 PM
The guns you get at Walmart are the same specs as getting them from gun stores.. get a Savage 12FV at Walmart, same gun...

KenInColo
January 2, 2009, 11:19 PM
I know that Wal-Mart has the upper hand w/every one of it's suppliers and thus dictates the terms they want. Wal-Mart to it's suppliers: "It's our way or the highway." e.g. Rubbermaid; Wal-Mart ran them right out of business.

bluetopper
January 2, 2009, 11:25 PM
I just wished Walmart sold 1911's.:(

Occasionalthinker
January 2, 2009, 11:37 PM
I bought a Colt pistol at Walmart many years ago and think it is the same quality as a Colt sold anywhere else. At the same time the same pistol was available at a gun store on the wrong side of a state line (for me) for $20 less. Price wasn't the issue on this, it was where I could purchase.

While I don't know if it is still true (I have been told the FTC has stopped the practice) I know Walmart in times past has bought the rights to some major US brand names and had the products manufactured overseas. I got this from a few different people I have known that were disgusted the marketing departments of their companies had sold the companies' trademarks.

It also used to be common practice (I've been out of retail for about 12 years) for companies to manufacture "mass marketers" versions of many products. They wouldn't make a run for Walmart, but they would make a run for Walmart, K-Mart, Sports Authority, Cabela's, etc combined and not have it available to smaller retailers. As always Buyer Beware and do your homework.

crazy-mp
January 2, 2009, 11:54 PM
We may never know the truth if Wally World does sell guns cheaper because they buy in bulk or if they have "special runs".

1. Yes they buy ammo by the train car load and guns too

2. Wal-Mart dictates how much they will pay for a product.

If a 10/22 cost you 185.00 to produce (only a estimate DO NOT QUOTE ME) and Wal-Mart tells you they will take 75,000 a year for 5 years but they are only going to pay you 186.25 a piece, what are you going to do? Plastic here, cut back on some bluing there, all of a sudden you are making a 3 dollar profit instead of a 1.25 profit.

Dose that seem a bit more realistic?

Just my two cents...

crushbup
January 3, 2009, 12:01 AM
Do you have a reference of some sort?

Well, it turned out to be me making up memories. I have corrected my post; to reiterate, the rifles are only different in barrel length and the type of stock (no barrel band)

Big Bill
January 3, 2009, 12:14 AM
they sell Savages without the accutrigger that I haven't seen anywhere else. There are some Savage models without the Accu-Trigger. WalMart probably buys more of them because they cost less and people who shop at WalMart are looking for a bargain.

rmmoore
January 3, 2009, 12:19 AM
I don't know for sure about firearms, although I seriously doubt it if for no other reason than the Gun manufacturers aren't selling a million "widgets" a day to make it economically viable for a "Wal-mart" version. Having said that, some makes (Winchester for sure) do make a rifle/scope package exclusively for marketing in Wally-World. I bought a used Model 70 synthetic package, and called Winchester for some information and that is what I was told BY the Winchester Rep., that particular gun/scope was a promotion exclusively for Walmart.
There are some tires, like the French ones that start with an "M", that Walmart sells that are NOT the same quality as you might buy at Sears or a Auto Dealership. When I needed a new set of skins for my diesel truck, Sams/Walmart quoted me the same size, make, and model for $300 less than Sears. I did some digging, and found they WERE NOT the same load rating, although I would have never known that if I hadn't checked. And yes, I told them the tires were for a diesel and I needed them for heavy towing. It wouldn't have been a good thing to blow a tire from overloading it while going up or down the mountain passes in October and November when we were relocating!!!! You get what you pay for, usually.

BeltfedMG
January 3, 2009, 12:44 AM
You guys just keep tryin to make it come out in your favor, it doesnt matter cause it doesnt change the fact, Wal mart guns are no less in quality then the same gun anywhere else.

Ruger is not gonna do a straight 75,000 run on 10/22's that are specificly for wal mart, they have hundreds of huge companies that they have to keep supplied for us FFL's to buy from, Zanders, Davidsons etc. They build the guns all the same and fill orders as they can, no less blueing for Wal mart guns, keep it up, your comments are clever, but wrong.

elkhuntingfool
January 3, 2009, 12:47 AM
I'm going to say no. The Wal mart near me sells Savage. I cannot imagine that Savage would cheapen their specs to sell at Wally World.

ljnowell
January 3, 2009, 12:51 AM
I know that with winchester white box 9 mm by UZI function just fine. I also know that with winchester white box 9 mm from wal mart it does not cycle. I'm sure that wal mart sell a cheap product at cheap prices. I (imho) think wal mart products are crap. I sure as hell wouldn't trust my life on wal mart ammo or guns. I also will not shop there because they come into a community and drive all the local business' to close. I will not support them with my hard earn dollar.


I think you should look at some anti-anxiety medication or just maybe some mild sedatives. The way of the big box store is how america has become. Its not because of walmart either, its because of america. Many of us couldnt pay our bills and survive without wal mart.

BTW, they dont get any different kind of ammo than anyone else, take off your tin foil hat. I had an uncle that worked for olin, the ammo is all the same no matter where it goes.

MD_Willington
January 3, 2009, 01:14 AM
No, why would they...

That would be a great way to ruin your brand image.

Average Joe
January 3, 2009, 03:54 PM
Yes, Walmart sells the guns that were made inferior, because they welcome all lawsuits.

expvideo
January 3, 2009, 04:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have relatives who own a gun shop and they say that with the specs on guns that Wal-mart isnt allowed to cheapen the guns at all. Other people say if you pick up a gun in wal-mart it will be lighter than a gun from Cabelas or somewhere. Ive seen lots of controversey with nobody showing any real evidence. Thought i would see what you guys think.
Sounds like somebody wants to justify their prices to you. You are being spoon fed a pile of BS.

Cyborg
January 3, 2009, 04:27 PM
SMMAssociates opined:No accusing WalMart, but it has long been customary for some of the big box stores to offer custom versions of other products - TV's, fridges, etc., with different specs that what might be the same item elsewhere. For the most part what Sears and other places do is have the manufacturer make the same model with their own name plate. Occasionally they will have a couple fewer bells and whistles but the quality is the same. Often the OEM manufacturer makes the identical model with someone else's name plate and trusts people to be willing to spend more on the "name brand". I have a Kenmore refirgerator. Every time I run a part # down it comes up with a Whirlpool model #. In the case of my fridge, I saved $200 for the identical item. I know they are identical bacause I have looked up both parts lists and they are identical.

I believe that WMart stuff is generally of acceptable quality. I see no reason why they would sell inferior guns and a number of reasons why they would not want to do so. Can you spell "class action suit"? You know where the manufacturer is allegedly sued by thousands of plaintifs who are awarded $millions in damages 90% of which goes to the legal team and a couple of bucks apiece goes to the members of the class.

Cy

unisonic12
January 3, 2009, 04:34 PM
I dont think any manufacturer would want thier name stamped on inferior products, no matter where they are sold.

Really? Don't buy any lawn/garden stuff from Home Depot then. Their John Deere, Toro, etc riding mowers and stuff are NOT the same quality as if you'd gotten one from an actual dealer. The "big box" stuff, in this case, is very inferior to the "real deal".

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 3, 2009, 04:42 PM
I went in to WalMart to buy a good pair of wiper blades. The best I could find were like $7.99 each. They were Anco blades. I went home and put them on my vehicle. The blades I removed (that I paid about $17.99 each for a year prior) were still in better condition, albeit a bit loose, than the brand new blades I had just purchased at WalMart.

The new blades were streaking - and I mean BADLY, which I've learned many years ago means your blades need changing (that is, after making sure the blades are clean with isopropyl alcohol).

So, I took the 'discount' blades back (which were the best ones I could get there) and went to my local auto store and paid $17.99 and got the more expensive (also Anco brand) blades which lasted about 2 years without any streaks whatsoever!

Look where most of the stuff at WalMart is made.
China.

koginam
January 3, 2009, 05:01 PM
For many years gun manufactures have made guns for customers under different names J.C. Higgins, Ted Williams, Coast to Coast, Sears etc... They were the same gun they manufactured under there own names but with the customers brand name instead. No manufacture is going to risk a law suite for walmart or damage to their brand name.

7.62X25mm
January 3, 2009, 05:09 PM
Probably the same intelligence team who convinced the American public that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

ljnowell
January 3, 2009, 05:23 PM
Really? Don't buy any lawn/garden stuff from Home Depot then. Their John Deere, Toro, etc riding mowers and stuff are NOT the same quality as if you'd gotten one from an actual dealer. The "big box" stuff, in this case, is very inferior to the "real deal".
More BS brought to you by the john deere dealership. If you buy the exact same model lawn tractor, it will be the same base tractor. It may not come with all the bells and whistles but it will be the same base unit.

Ah the greatest marketing ploy ever invented. The more you pay the more it's worth. What a concept. I wish I had a patent on that idea. I'd be stinking rich by now.

I've seen the same items being sold for as much as $10k difference in price just because they had a different name badge on them. It was automobiles. The cheaper version was actually from the company that built them. Sell some to a high quality name brand company and they instantly gained $10k in value. The more you pay the more it's worth. I've seen so many examples like that it would take 10 pages to detail them all.

Yes some chain stores used to buy guns and have their brand names put on them. It was very common to do this in fact. Stores like Sears, and Montgomery Ward etc. would buy shotguns or rifles and have their own brand name added and they would sell them as a completely different gun. Iver Johnson sold guns to these stores a lot along with a few other brands. They were always equal in quality though. I would be shocked if WW was selling an inferior gun to people. The potential for lawsuits would be staggering. I thought I had a quality gun that wouldn't blow up in my face judge. Don't I deserve a few dozen millions of dollars?


Most auto parts companies (expecially with wipers, brake pads, etc) manufacture several different lines of parts all under the same name. Some are cheaper, some are more, and quality does differ.

Black Knight
January 3, 2009, 05:28 PM
After having been to the Beretta factory in MD I can say without reservation that the Beretta shotguns Wal-Mart sells are the exact same as the Beretta shotguns sold elsewhere. I have looked at several guns from Wal-Mart and other stores and have found no difference except in price. Wal-Mart can buy tractor trailer loads of each model for a central warehouse and distribute them to the stores as needed. The individual gunstore can't afford that type of set-up. They can only afford maybe 10 of a particular model at a time and that may be pushing it.

dogngun
January 3, 2009, 05:33 PM
NO!
I bought a Savage 111 back when my local Wal ws still selling guns,one pf the package rifles. On the Savage website, they stated the package rifle came with a sling as well as scope, etc. I got no sling in the package.
I called customer service and was told that Walmart package rifles had everything BUT the sling, but everything was exactly the same otherwise.
Same gun, maybe a slightly different deal.
mark

RockyMtnTactical
January 3, 2009, 05:42 PM
I went in to WalMart to buy a good pair of wiper blades. The best I could find were like $7.99 each. They were Anco blades. I went home and put them on my vehicle. The blades I removed (that I paid about $17.99 each for a year prior) were still in better condition, albeit a bit loose, than the brand new blades I had just purchased at WalMart.

The new blades were streaking - and I mean BADLY, which I've learned many years ago means your blades need changing (that is, after making sure the blades are clean with isopropyl alcohol).

So, I took the 'discount' blades back (which were the best ones I could get there) and went to my local auto store and paid $17.99 and got the more expensive (also Anco brand) blades which lasted about 2 years without any streaks whatsoever!

Look where most of the stuff at WalMart is made.
China.

Yeah, I have it on good authority that Ruger outsources their 10/22's to a company in China that makes 10/22 knock-offs and sells them to Wal-Mart so Wal-Mart can sell 10/22's for $20 cheaper than the gun stores... :rolleyes:

:evil:

hksw
January 3, 2009, 09:36 PM
YOu get a better deal when you buy 50000 instead of 50

Well, that plus they have a big team of super hard core purchasing associates.

Sniper X
January 4, 2009, 12:12 AM
I do know that WalMart gets different and exclusive Buck knives that are different in that they have nylon cheaper sheath's than their counter parts at say Sportsman's warehouse which have the standard leather sheath. I found that out by buying a General at Wally for about $46.00 and saw it at SW for $49.00 with the nicer leather sheath.

chuckusaret
January 4, 2009, 12:25 AM
QUOTE: Yeah, I have it on good authority that Ruger outsources their 10/22's to a company in China that makes 10/22 knock-offs and sells them to Wal-Mart so Wal-Mart can sell 10/22's for $20 cheaper than the gun stores...
Did the "knock off" say Ruger made in the USA. If not, what is the grip. What is a Porsche? a knock off of a VW.

KarenTOC
January 4, 2009, 12:40 AM
Walmart sells guns?

rust collector
January 4, 2009, 10:14 AM
@SniperX Many knife manufacturers offer different packages to meet the needs of different resellers. Some may be bulk packed, others in clamshells, some with textile sheaths and some with leather. Some will bear corporate logos, others not. Same knife, different package or appearance, unless the brand is not applied or is obliterated. It would be suicidal for a maker to reduce quality of the product and therefore the brand.

Sears has always outsourced their Craftsman brand, and they can change suppliers and specs at will. Increasingly, retailers are buying old brands such as McCulloch, or selling under house brands. "Badge engineering" is common in the automotive and appliance arenas.

It all boils down to who stands behind the product.

wuchak
January 4, 2009, 10:46 AM
If it is the same make and model that is selling elsewhere then it will be the same quality. If it is not Walmart would be setting themselves up for a massive fraud case. You cannot claim it's a regular Marlin 39a when it's a special version made just for you with cheaper parts (if you could get Marlin to do this which I doubt). If you make it a Marlin 39aws (Walmart Special) then you can change whatever you want, make it a semi-auto even.

All the big stores had their own labels years ago. Back in the early 1900's Sears actually owned their own firearms factory. Making it themselves turned into contracting with regular makers to produce special versions with the Sears name on it. JC Penny, Western Auto, Wards, etc. all did the same. In many instances these were the same as the similar model in the manufacturer's regular product line. Sometimes there was a difference: lower grade of wood in the stocks, cheaper bluing, skipped a polishing step, etc. Since it was done under the store name and not the firearms company's there was no risk to the firearms company's reputation in this scenario.

Today a lot of stores have special version of products made just for them. This is most common in electronics. These special versions will have a different model number than those sold elsewhere even though most of the time the units are identical. The different model number is the end in itself. If a store promises to match competitor prices in the fine print it will say that it has to the same model. On those items with a store exclusive model number there is no risk of having to match the price of Crazy Eddie. Sometimes the special versions for a store are just a version of the product that the company sells in another part of the world. I bought a camera recently that was only available in silver except for at Best Buy where it was available exclusively in black. Outside the US it was available in either color just about everywhere else.

22-rimfire
January 4, 2009, 10:56 AM
I liked the Walmart special 10/22 with the stainless barrel, no barrel band, and composite stock better than all of the other 10/22's offered with the exception of the Deluxe version with the walnut stock. No barrel band seems to make them a little more accurate just like the Deluxe model. So, it must have been an inferor product made exclusively for Walmart.

Guns are the same whether you buy them at Walmart or your local gunshop. You'll notice that mnay gun shops don't carry many of the guns Walmart carries as they know that folks buy at Walmart.

Years ago, it was very common for the department stores and hardware store chains to have their own line of guns which were made by the regular manufacturers. Time has shown them to be exactly the same basic product although the stocks may be different or something like that different.

Hoot Gibson
January 4, 2009, 11:03 AM
This thread might as well ask.."Are Wrangler Blue Jeans sold at Wally World cheaper than those sold at Target?"

It's the same darn product folks....there is no difference.

Hoot Gibson
January 4, 2009, 11:06 AM
no difference...except the price I might add

stalkingbear
January 4, 2009, 11:07 AM
I CAN state exactly what an Ruger rep once told me-when they are running 10/22s for example, they run wal-mart only during that run, and quality control goes down some. I have no way of confirming this, other than looking at fit/finish of examples I see at local wal-marts, and even this tells me nothing. How much I don't know, but that means you MAY get totally equal quality, and you MAY NOT. From what I understand, this applies to fit/finish only, and the maximum difference isn't much. I DO know that of different firearms people bring into my shop to return to manufacturer, quite a bit of them were purchased at wal-mart. In final response, I would see nothing wrong with buying firearms at wal-mart IF you be SURE to look it over GOOD before buying it. AGAIN-I have no way of proving 1 way OR the other-merely stating what the Ruger rep told me 1 time on the phone.

wuchak
January 4, 2009, 11:21 AM
I CAN state exactly what an Ruger rep once told me-when they are running 10/22s for example, they run wal-mart only during that run, and quality control goes down some. I have no way of confirming this, other than looking at fit/finish of examples I see at local wal-marts, and even this tells me nothing. How much I don't know, but that means you MAY get totally equal quality, and you MAY NOT. From what I understand, this applies to fit/finish only, and the maximum difference isn't much. I DO know that of different firearms people bring into my shop to return to manufacturer, quite a bit of them were purchased at wal-mart. In final response, I would see nothing wrong with buying firearms at wal-mart IF you be SURE to look it over GOOD before buying it. AGAIN-I have no way of proving 1 way OR the other-merely stating what the Ruger rep told me 1 time on the phone.

If this were true and could be proven Ruger would be guilty of fraud. If Walmart knew they were doing this they would also be guilty. Ruger might produce all the 10/22's for Walmart in a single batch as a means of making packing and shipping easier, especially since there is a Walmart special version of the gun, but they cannot systematically build them to a lower quality standard and call it the same product. I think the rep was blowing smoke.

BENELLIMONTE
January 4, 2009, 11:36 AM
Wallyworld actually has some guns made to spec that are better bargains than other outlets offer. Example is the Ruger 10-22 in Stainless Steel w hardwood stock for around 220.00 I can't find them anywhere else for that price. I also picked up one of the close out Remington ADLs for $ 300.00. It is the most accurate out of the box243 Winchester I have owned. Hope this helps:)

avpro
January 4, 2009, 11:38 AM
Don't know about Wal-Mart and their guns, but I do know that some big box stores don't get better pricing because they buy in bulk, they actually tell the suppliers what they are going to pay. For example, my brother owns a company that supplies "The Home Depot" with kitchen counter tops. They tell him what they are going to pay. He has no choice but sell to them at that price because the contractors that used to be his customers now buy their supplies from Home Depot. In order to make a profit, the suppliers have to cut their costs. Quality of the product might be one of those cost saving measures. Don't believe me, go to Home Depot and buy and American Standard toilet and then go to a good plumbing supply store and compare the two. Thinner porcelain, plastic vs. brass, etc.. If you buy from a big box store, you take your chances.

Flyboy
January 4, 2009, 11:47 AM
Withdrawn after further research.

BillyBothHands
January 4, 2009, 12:01 PM
I would only worry about this if Wal-Mart started selling Gladware microwavable bolt actions or Quaker Oats Scatter Gun w/Cinnamon grater... :) But it would be nice to be able to go to the back of the store and pick up a matching toilet seat cover for the Remington :P

wuchak
January 4, 2009, 12:02 PM
"...Don't believe me, go to Home Depot and buy and American Standard toilet and then go to a good plumbing supply store and compare the two. Thinner porcelain, plastic vs. brass, etc.. If you buy from a big box store, you take your chances."

The model numbers will be different. If they are the same then you have the same fraud scenario that I described before. American Standard, like most companies, makes a range of products from very cheap to very nice. It's no surprise to find the cheaper ones at the locations catering to the DIY crowd.

akodo
January 4, 2009, 12:25 PM
Look at Snapper Lawnmowers. Wal-mart wanted to sell Snapper, but none of the Snapper mowers fit the walmart price. Wal-mart basically told Snapper 'that's okay, we will paint our existing chinese lawnmowers orange, and slap a Snapper sticker on them' This is the same deal the have made with MANY big companies. Snapper is one of the few who backed out realizing that this would ruin their reputation.

I suspect this has also happened with firearms.

I strongly suspect this is how we got the Remington 710

Also, there is the Huffy Bike effect. Walmart made an agreement with Huffy, and used their large size to include some real nasty terms. Huffy made bikes A, B, C, X, Y, and Z. Walmart wanted to sell Z, as it was the cheapest. Walmart agreed to pay $3 over production cost for Z, and would order AT LEAST a large amount, and Huffy agreed to supply them with whatever amount was necessary.

Walmart decided to use the Huffy as a 'door buster' (an item you put in add at no profit, or even a loss, to pull people into the store) But they did it walmart style...on a scale, length, and scope never before seen...enough to directly affect the markets. Walmart has named these 'nationwide yearlong doorbusters' as 'Statement Items' Walmart has done this before with pickles and oranges and a few other commodities.

Getting your product picked as the Statement Item is pretty rare, but whichever producer gets his item picked pretty much gets destroyed.

Walmart requested from Huffy 5 times the number of model Z bikes as Huffy produced the year before. Huffy said they couldn't do it, walmart pointed to the contract.

Huffy was forced to stop making bikes A, B, and C which were much more profitable and redirect those lines to making Bike Z. Huffy also set up a new factory to make more bike Z.

The quality of the original factory bike Z in walmart would be the same as that same bike Z in target, sears, bob's hardware, or wherever.

However, once bike Z production went into 'panic mode' quality control I SUSPECT went downhill. I also doubt that lines/factories A, B, and C were immediately producing as good of bike Z as standard, same with the new factory.

Huffy bike Z got a reputation for having a lot of problems.

I suspect the same thing can and does happen in firearms, ESPECIALLY in 22LR firearms.

No, wal-mart is NOT able to make it's profits by it's ability to buy in bulk. It makes it's profits by forcing a company to move overseas and utilize cheap labor and make inferior product that the US consumer assumes is the same.

Now, in these same overseas cheap labor markets, Walmart is pushing down labor prices. China has a minimum wage of $56 per month, except Walmart is allowed to go as low as $32 per month with a nod nod wink wink. Also, there have been some reports that as in china you are paid by the 'day' not the 'hour' that days in walmart are equaling 14 hours vs the standard 10.

I've heard the talk of 'oh, your car is a lemon...it probaby was made on a Friday!' I imagine that in ALL products, including guns, that comes into play. However, I suspect that everything produced at around hour 13 of work for the day is not going to be of the same quality as at hour 6.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 4, 2009, 12:27 PM
Home Depot and other "big box stores." You try to compare apples with apples, so to speak, and you can't because they don't sell the EXCACT same thing as in other stores (in various brand names, not all brands).

For example, I purchased two Hunter Ceiling Fans at Home Depot. I had a problem with one of them and I looked online for parts for that particular model mumber. The EXACT model was nowhere to be found on the entire Internet, using several search engines, including Google.

I even went to the Hunter Web Site and the fan was not listed anywhere in their comprehensive listings of ceiling fans.

Finally, I called Hunter to get the problem resolved (the fan would not switch to high speed and low/medium speeds were slower than the other identical ceiling fan I installed in a very large room - two identical fans installed about 12' apart from one another).

Hunter asked me the model number and when I told them, they said they couldn't help me. When I told them I purchased them at HD, they said Oh, hold on just a minute. Then they came back and found it! Then, after describing the problem they mailed me a new part (that they thought was the problem).

When going to install the new part, I discovered that there was a loose wire nut to one of the wire legs to the part in question. I re-spliced the wires and installed new wire nuts and then the fan worked just like the other one.

This is not the only time I have found this to be true. I find .22 and .38 bullets packaged differently for WalMart and if I try to find the exact package online or at other local stores, no go, I can't find the same thing anywhere else.

Someone mentioned in another blog that they had purchased some centerfire ammo (pistol bullets, if I remember correctly) and out of one or two boxes there were several primers that were set sideways and various cases were crumpled to the extent that they could not chamber the rounds. Their conclusion was "do not use WalMart ammo as DEFENSIVE LOADS when your life depends on them!"

My point is that the suppliers APPARENTLY DO have different model makes exclusively for WalMart and the other BBS's (Big Box Stores).

I also happen to know several people who work in these Big Box Stores and they have all told me the same thing. Their store sells inferior products which are either "thrown together" and/or have inferior parts. These "stories" aren't just made up. People are smart enough to realize when a product is made cheaply or is downright defective -- compared to that same product when the product is made properly through-&-through.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
January 4, 2009, 12:32 PM
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html here you can see what walmart does to its suppliers. now if you have an FFL buying a rifle for $400 and walmart buying a rifle for $300 who is going to get the crappy rifle?

Tommygunn
January 4, 2009, 12:36 PM
I was once told by a gunsmith (who ran his own gun store and could be said to be biased) that gun manufacturers do make different grades of weapons and high output places like Wal Mart got the inexpensive version and places that deal with guns more exclusively got the better.
It wasn't a matter of the cheaper ones not shooting well -- he claimed they were both the same in that manner -- it was how nice the exterior finish was done.
Now, I am not claiming that this is really true.

I do know I bought a '30-06 Remington 700 at Wal Mart back when I worked there and it was every bit as nice as any other 700 I'd seen elsewhere, plus I got the employee discount!
In any case if Wal Mart has the gun you like, and you agree to the price, I see no reason why you shouldn't buy it there. It will be the same thing you get elsewhere.

akodo
January 4, 2009, 12:38 PM
Home Depot and other "big box stores." You try to compare apples with apples, so to speak, and you can't because they don't sell the EXCACT same thing as in other stores (in various brand names, not all brands).

this is absolutely correct. a BOX may have the same model number on the outside, but you can actually have multiple products with the same model number.

We all know you can't just compare two different "Remingtons" because of different models. You also can't compare two different Model 1701-AX, because they may not actually be the same.

You want a true 'apples to apples' comparison? Write down the UPC "Universal Product Code" barcode number, it will be 12 digets long, but you only need to record the last 4. Alternatively (especially for electronics) turn it over. There will be a little label with the M/N (model number) followed by P/N (product number) and PID (Product Identification Number). Just because you have the same model number doesn't mean you have the same product. To compare, make sure product numbers match

devildog66
January 4, 2009, 12:52 PM
That's right. All WalMart products ESPECIALLY ammo is inferior to the more expensive ammo elsewhere and no one else should ever buy WWB .45 ACP so that I have a steady supply of less expensive range ammo, err, I mean, because it is sooo inferior.

I would be wholly unsurprised that WalMart has firearms models that are unique to them just as Sears Roebuck had back in the day. But that would not remotely make them inferior or a lesser quality. That said, just stay away from that inferior .45 ACP ammo.

And I'm Joe Isuzu...;)

Onmilo
January 4, 2009, 02:57 PM
Being in and about the business of selling and repairing guns for the better part of thirty years now, here is my take on the big Wal-Mart question.

Prior to Wal-Mart going huge and ordering guns by the boxcar full from manufacturers there were already efforts being made to cheapen American made firearms to allow them to remain cost effective and viable to American buyers.
Winchester pre-64/post-64 is a good example of this trend.

What the Wal-Mart buying did was to accelerate this process.
Cases in point,
Mossberg 500 pre Wal-Mart,
All metal trigger housing. safety button, higher quality metal finish, Walnut used on all but Military/Police guns.
Post Wal-Mart, plastic housing and safety, thinner metal finish, hardwoods and synthetics (plastic) abounds for furniture.

Remington 870
Pre-Wal-Mart, all metal safety and internal components, high quality metal finish, hand fitted actions, walnut stocks.
Post Wal-Mart, enter the "Express", Plastic trigger components, plastic safety that acts as a locking feature, thin, sometimes painted appearing finish, hardwood and synthetic (plastic) stocks.
Same with the semi-auto guns and many of these cheaper components have now been incorporated into Remingtons regular production lines making the guns cheaper to produce but the manufacturer did not reduce the prices of the top of the line products, they actually increased the proces to make up for losses incurred through selling to big box stores at cut rate prices, a marketing decision that very nearly caused Remington to file bankruptcy.

Winchester Pre Wal-Mart
Walnut stocks, high quality metal finish.
Post Wal-Mart
Hardwood and plastic abounds, guns lose even more appeal to American consumers than they did post-64, sale of the company to an off shore buyer, ultimate closure of a gun manufacturer that had been in busiess for nearly 150 years.

Do manufacturers make guns cheaper for sales to Wal-Mart?
Nope.
They now make the guns cheaper and sell them at premium prices to all areas of the gun trade.

mr.243
January 4, 2009, 03:08 PM
it wouldn't be a crazy idea that they would use cheaper wood for stocks. it would just save the company some cash.

Loomis
January 4, 2009, 03:34 PM
If they do walmart only runs at the factory, then there will be differences. They may not be substantial differences, but there will be differences. The difference may not be enough to justify the price difference between walmart and other shops, but there will be differences.

Sniper X
January 4, 2009, 03:42 PM
Rust, I agree with you completely. I could not see any difference between the Buck General, or Ranger I bought from a couple of them I have had since the 70s. I also only saw a difference in the sheath on the General since it came from Wal Mart. The Ranger came from Sportsmans and had the leather sheath. I must say, both new Bicks seem to be just as high quality as their 1970s counterparts! Good tyo see a comapny with so much company pride and respectability in these the days of cheaper is better.... I commend Buck to no end!

Nevada Buck
January 4, 2009, 03:52 PM
It has been my experience that gun manufacturers will "get rid of" guns that have flaws if the flaws are not too noticeable rather than eating the expense of remanufacture or naming it a second. I have taken in several like that and one good example was a Mossberg 12 a customer brought me because he said he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. I looked down the barrel and where the Rib was welded to it there was a tit hanging down from the top inside causing damage to the shot and to fly all over the place. I did a complete remake of this particular gun as he wanted to use it for card shooting but many times there are flaws, although not noticeable, have a decided effect on the way it shoots. Some let it go as they feel they are just bad shots and never bring it to light.

expvideo
January 4, 2009, 04:59 PM
I CAN state exactly what an Ruger rep once told me-when they are running 10/22s for example, they run wal-mart only during that run, and quality control goes down some. I have no way of confirming this, other than looking at fit/finish of examples I see at local wal-marts, and even this tells me nothing. How much I don't know, but that means you MAY get totally equal quality, and you MAY NOT. From what I understand, this applies to fit/finish only, and the maximum difference isn't much. I DO know that of different firearms people bring into my shop to return to manufacturer, quite a bit of them were purchased at wal-mart. In final response, I would see nothing wrong with buying firearms at wal-mart IF you be SURE to look it over GOOD before buying it. AGAIN-I have no way of proving 1 way OR the other-merely stating what the Ruger rep told me 1 time on the phone.
I would be willing to bet that the rep didn't really know what he was talking about. I highly doubt he has ever even spoken with someone from quality control for their company, and it is probably as much of a rumor there as it is here. I doubt anyone but the CQ reps and the very upper management actually know for a fact, but since their business, like any other gun company, is based entirely on reputation and not on advertizement, I highly doubt they would risk that to save a few dollars per rifle.

Dravur
January 4, 2009, 07:15 PM
Woohooooo

Another Wal-mart Thread

akodo
January 4, 2009, 07:26 PM
I CAN state exactly what an Ruger rep once told me-when they are running 10/22s for example, they run wal-mart only during that run, and quality control goes down some. I have no way of confirming this, other than looking at fit/finish of examples I see at local wal-marts, and even this tells me nothing. How much I don't know, but that means you MAY get totally equal quality, and you MAY NOT. From what I understand, this applies to fit/finish only, and the maximum difference isn't much. I DO know that of different firearms people bring into my shop to return to manufacturer, quite a bit of them were purchased at wal-mart. In final response, I would see nothing wrong with buying firearms at wal-mart IF you be SURE to look it over GOOD before buying it. AGAIN-I have no way of proving 1 way OR the other-merely stating what the Ruger rep told me 1 time on the phone.

If this were true and could be proven Ruger would be guilty of fraud. If Walmart knew they were doing this they would also be guilty. Ruger might produce all the 10/22's for Walmart in a single batch as a means of making packing and shipping easier, especially since there is a Walmart special version of the gun, but they cannot systematically build them to a lower quality standard and call it the same product. I think the rep was blowing smoke.

I can totally believe it. One thing walmart does is always push for lower prices. I can definately see in negotiation where walmart says "Last year we bought them for $120, this year we want them for $116" to which Ruger says 'no way we can go that low!' Walmart says 'you sure?...let's take a look. Is that barrel band really necessary? You dip them in blueing 4 times, what if you only did it 3 times?....and here, you Quality Control guys are only finding 1 error per 1000, you got 3 guys doing QC, obviously with that low rate, these guys for the most part find nothing all day long, run your numbers with 1 less QC guy."

BeltfedMG
January 4, 2009, 08:47 PM
All this from the same intelligent people who told me my HK sear is illegal and 30 yrs in prison and $300,000 fine.......There are some gulible ignorant people here. Funny to sit back and watch as you know it alls come up with these "Heard from a gunshop dealer", "knew a guy whos cousin worked for Ruger" and all the other crazy **** you come up with. Keep them going, were almost at 4 pages, i bet we can go to 6 pages of nonsense.

hak
January 4, 2009, 09:45 PM
mikepgs said: "I don't see why they would go and make an entirely different batch of guns with different specs just for Wal-mart. I mean I know they're a huge chain but making separate runs would probably negate any benefits they would get from selling to such a huge distributor."

i used to think the same way. then i saw what home depot did with some Milwaukee tools. i buy Milwaukee, Bosh, or Makita (best of each continent in my mind). some other contractor on a job site saw the plastic molded case on my heavy duty 90 degree drill and asked if it was a home depot drill. me: "yes" his reply: "then it's crap."

so i checked. the Heavy Duty tools are the same (90 degree drill, v28 lithium cordless drill and sawzall, my 12amp rotating super sawzall) but Milwaukee /does/ make some cheappy versions of their non lithium battery 3 pc sets. i found them and held them, they felt like ryobi's non lithium (not green/silver) ones, the blue yellow ones. no magnesium and steel, plasticky.

so, i've seen a good brand make a 'cheaper version' to allow another 'demographic' to afford their products via a bigbox. did it handle like my v28 drill, nope. do i see it lasting as long as my v28 drill? nope. would it cheapen the brand IF these fail like the cheap ryobi? yes. but, was it < half the cost? yup.

but i've learned my lesson. buy a good tool once, or cheap tools over and over. so it may not be rifles.

RockyMtnTactical
January 4, 2009, 09:45 PM
This is truly ridiculous. I am shocked at how many people believe Wal-Mart is making/selling some chinese version of the same American guns... It is funny though.

Duke of Doubt
January 4, 2009, 09:48 PM
They did it with ammo and denied it until they were forced to admit it (yet still instruct their employees to deny it). They do it with all manner of other products -- lawnmowers for example. So why wouldn't they do it with guns?

BTW, nothing "fraudulent" about it. Deceitful, maybe.

hak
January 4, 2009, 09:50 PM
i cant speak to akodo's specific references but i can see the influence playing out.

a friend of mine managed a hardware store (true value variant, not Home Depot/lowes). he said when his grand-dad ran the store, black and decker, et al, used to come into the store and say: "our big ole display goes here, or else". now, with sales tracking software, even a small retailer can find a ratio of "shelf space to profit" of any given line of items. and will place prominence on promo and location based on this profitability.

so now, the retailer (big, or small with the right tools) says to the supplier/manufacturer: "look, you're 1450th out of 4000 products in profit per 'board foot' of shelving. you don't get front showing now. show me how you can increase your rankings and we'll talk ... "(then see akodo's post).

Deltaboy
January 4, 2009, 10:04 PM
no they are the same I worked at gunshop and the owner told customers to buy their 870's at wal-mart because he could not come close to their price since WM bought 10,000 at a time and he could only buy 5.
It is simple economics 101

22-rimfire
January 4, 2009, 11:24 PM
Interesting thread actually. I find it hard to believe that Huffy only made $3 per bicycle sold to Walmart. Ammo? Rifles & Shotguns? Rubbermaid? Heard the Snapper story before... it was a no-go for Walmart. I wonder if their TV's are equal in quality to things sold by places like Best Buy and so forth? The answer would seem to be No.

rust collector
January 5, 2009, 01:21 AM
As much fun as it is to blame Walmart for the cheapening of consumer goods and destruction of the local retail economy, it stems from our willingness to sacrifice quality and the main street hardware store to make things more affordable. It's a matter of marketing, and WM is figuring out what we want better than many retailers. We have met the enemy and he is us.

I used to think I needed pro-grade powertools, but I got tired of lugging them around and paying for them. The batteries still went bad in 6 months. It's a bit like the IBM Selectric typewriter--why get a 30 year typewriter when the capability of new machines doubles every couple years? I no longer buy powertools by the pound. If I were a tradesman, I probably would.

Your father's Oldsmobile had a Chevy engine, Oldsmobile is no more, and my Pontiac Vibe has a Toyota mill. As they said long ago, caveat emptor.

GregGry
January 5, 2009, 07:05 AM
I can tell you that i have bought numerous products from wallmart in the last year that where marketed under a brand name and design, only to find out internally they were different then the actual product I saw on tv or somewhere else. A quick example would be the perfect pushup handles I bought for my friend in Iraq. I paid 20$ at walmart, and they are 30 on the tv. After looking at the box and then looking at the TV, I saw the ones on the TV had a chrome plated handle (Who knows if it was steel) with what appeared to be a foam grip. The box of the walmart handles had no chrome, the grip appeared to be plastic too. The total grip area seemed smaller then the TV set as well. I wasn't bothered since my buddy says they work fine.

With their firearms I would think their buying power would net you more rifle for your money.

hksw
January 5, 2009, 01:08 PM
There are some gulible ignorant people here. Funny to sit back and watch as you know it alls come up with these "Heard from a gunshop dealer", "knew a guy whos cousin worked for Ruger" and all the other crazy **** you come up with. Keep them going, were almost at 4 pages, i bet we can go to 6 pages of nonsense.

The really funny ones are the posts that go, 'I hate WM. They are pure evil, They will destroy America. I only go there because they're close by, open 'til late hours, and they sell what I need at a low price. Otherwise, I don't go there.'

unisonic12
January 5, 2009, 01:10 PM
I love Wal-Mart! It's pretty much the only place we shop at besides grocery stores or needing something exclusive. Just too frickin' expensive to shop at most other stores, the mall, etc.

JohnBT
January 5, 2009, 01:32 PM
"I wonder if their TV's are equal in quality to things sold by places like Best Buy and so forth?"

Sort of, near as I can tell.

I can only relate my personal experience from the summer of 2007. I was shopping for a 32" Samsung lcd for my father to use in assisted living and had visited a number of Circuit City, Best Buy & WM stores between Richmond and Harrisonburg looking for deals.

The actual model numbers elude me at the moment, but I believe the one I got him was a 3253 - the higher end of that series. CC and BB also carried the Samsung 3242 IIRC, a very similar looking tv, but with lower contrast numbers, etc.

Then there was Wal-Mart. They had 2 Samsung 32" tvs and I initially thought their prices were great and would have bought one and been out the door if I could have gotten waited on. Good thing too, I had time to read the really fine print on the back of the tvs (had to unplug them to turn 'em around.)

The catch was they carried 2 Samsungs, but not the usual 2. They had the lower-end "regular" Samsung 32" that CC and BB had, PLUS they had what turned out to be a WM-ONLY Samsung with a model number like 3232 and even worse contrast, etc. than the lower end regular Samsung.

Anyway, they do have oddball stuff for sale if you're not careful. Now, where's that Vlassic pickle article about them nearly going under because of the deal they cut with Wal-Mart.

John

JohnBT
January 5, 2009, 01:45 PM
Oh, and once upon a time my father bought a 10/22 Wal-Mart exclusive and it seemed to be every bit as good as any other 10/22 I've ever seen.

He shot it twice, offered it to me (HA!, funny one dad) and then gave it to his brother to use as trade bait.

I don't know what he was thinking, we already had plenty of perfectly good .22's that would outshoot a 10/22.

I bought a gun at WM once, a 12 ga. Model 1100 synthetic for $328. It was, and is, fine.

John

KBintheSLC
January 5, 2009, 01:47 PM
I also will not shop there because they come into a community and drive all the local business' to close.

That is the issue for me... their guns and ammo might be identical, but I would rather give my money to the local gun shops. Wal-Mart employees don't know the meaning of the words "customer service". Rarely am I treated like a lower form of life as much as I am at the Waql-Mart gun counter... its full of anti's that treat customers like criminals. Anyway, their prices are not really significantly lower anymore for ammo... 9mm is up to $20/100 rounds for WWB. I can get the exact same price... $9.95/50 rounds for PMC at the gun shop.

Honestly, I would rather pay 5-10% more and give my money to a local company that doesn't suck.

preachnhunt
January 5, 2009, 02:03 PM
That does it! No more Wal Mart Condoms!

unisonic12
January 5, 2009, 02:20 PM
Wal-Mart employees don't know the meaning of the words "customer service".

Yeah, because gun shops are widely known for giving excellent customer service, right? How many threads have we read here and otherwise with people constantly b!tching about the horrible service they received at a gun shop? :rolleyes:

DAVIDSDIVAD
January 5, 2009, 03:14 PM
So by this logic, because Smith and Wesson sells some of the worst knives on the market, they're guns are bad, too?

ljnowell
January 5, 2009, 04:36 PM
For a group of people that harp about sheep following blindly, a lot of you display the same trait. Take off the tin foil hats.

Justin
January 5, 2009, 04:40 PM
Oh geeze, not this again.

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