[sernv99]

I am thinking to get me a Saiga 12 gauge, probably go all out and buy one that is already converted e.g. Tromix or some other maker. Seems from past threads, mags can be costly and if a ban goes through, I would have to buy at least a good 10 mags to be sure if a few broke here and there, I would still have a few left to play with.

Is the price of magazines for Saiga the biggest drawback?

also how is this gun "choked"? What's the tightest pattern you can get from this gun, IC/M??

[Javelin]

I suggest you check out Tromix website and see if you really want one. Just know that he is not taking orders until 2011 as he is that backordered with everyone who wants a Tromix conversion. It is still a great place to look at the potential a Saiga-12 has to offer.

www.tromix.com

It's a personal decision. But I can with much certainty tell you that Saigas will become very expensive very soon. And Saiga shotguns have one of the highest probabilities of being banned from import. The street sweeper is nothing compared to a Saiga-12 and it is an AOW.

:)

[WardenWolf]

A Saiga at least can be legitimately used for hunting. That alone is going to make it a lot harder to reclassify or ban. What got the street sweeper and similar designs in trouble as that it was impossible to refit it with a hunting-legal magazine. It was a gun designed to kill people in massive numbers. That's all it was designed to do, and that's all it was good for. The Saiga can be set up in various ways. Don't be surprised, however, if the ATF places restrictions on magazine-fed shotguns barring magazines over a certain capacity. The ATF has a lot of "as-assembled" laws, and barring assembly of a shotgun with a magazine over a certain capacity seems likely.

[notorious]

Pro Mag now makes Saiga shotgun magazines for $40, IIRC, just saw it in a gun magazine a few days ago.

[WardenWolf]

Don't buy Pro Mag. Buy Surefire or AGP, or Russian factory. The Pro Mags will turn your perfectly reliable Saiga into a jam-o-matic.

Saigastock.com has Saiga-12 mags in stock, including a 2-round hunting mag (2 + 1).

[notorious]

Pro mags have worked fine for me in other guns. We don't have Saigas in Kommiefornia... that I have seen so I can't speak to that.

[4Freedom]

You'd think in Kaliforniastan that only commie guns would be legal and everything else of the "West" be banned. Oh well, I forgot, only the politburo in Sacramento and the rabid groups of thugs who rule the streets have the right to such luxuries in that country.

Back to the subject, I have put an order for some AGP 10 round Saiga-12 gauge mags. I tried calling Mississippi Arms and leaving messages but they never answer or return calls. What way can I get the 12 rounders from SureFire? I am sketchy though on going on waiting lists, for fear I will be waiting until the ban.

[rundm]

I just ordered from Mississippi arms on the 31st and got down for 4 of the 120 they had for presale. if you go online you will get the mags and your card will be charged at that time. the mags are shipping this week coming up so don't fret about the card being charged. they are a good company and worth the time to get the mags. if you call them on the phone, your card will not be charged until they are shipped. RG

[4Freedom]

Well, I would like to just get someone on the phone so I know they are a real company. If I order from them I will have to cancel my order with AGP and I am a bit nervous about doing that. I like to hear from someone at the store how long I have to wait to get the mags. If I order the 12 rounders today, how long will I have to wait to get my mags? I worry I won't get them before inauguration time. Can I order the mags directly from SureFIre?

[sernv99]

I guess I was late in getting on the Saiga bandwagon. I'm not going to be waiting until 2011 for this gun and I think 2011 is bunch of b.s. It takes 2 years to fill orders? Does he have a full warehouse of Saigas that he can last 2 years without taking new orders?

[Ben Shepherd]

Sernv99-

Tony is basically a one-man show. He's possibly the Hamilton Bowen of Saiga 12 conversions. I have 2 223 Saiga conversions he did for me. Well worth the price and the wait.

There are other places out there doing conversions, i.e.- www.fbmginc.com Turn around time is a lot less(more like a couple months).

In fact I have them doing conversions and 3 color duracoat camo on 2 s-12s and a 308 of mine as we speak. I'll be going up this afternoon to see how they're coming along.

[sernv99]

I see, I guess that's understandable. From his website, I was under the impression that he had this as a full time operation.

[Javelin]

A Saiga at least can be legitimately used for hunting. That alone is going to make it a lot harder to reclassify or ban. What got the street sweeper and similar designs in trouble as that it was impossible to refit it with a hunting-legal magazine. It was a gun designed to kill people in massive numbers. That's all it was designed to do, and that's all it was good for. The Saiga can be set up in various ways. Don't be surprised, however, if the ATF places restrictions on magazine-fed shotguns barring magazines over a certain capacity. The ATF has a lot of "as-assembled" laws, and barring assembly of a shotgun with a magazine over a certain capacity seems likely.


Though I agree with the hunting part Mike. I will tell you that My 11" Tromix Saiga shorty (with detachable 20-round drum magazine) has 8 more rounds than the Streetsweeper, is 3" shorter, cycles 2x faster (approximately .4 seconds per round), and can be reloaded in <5 seconds.... whereas the Streetsweeper takes a bit to break apart, dump shells, and load them back individually in the cylinder slots. And might I add Saigas are much more fun to shoot because the piston takes most of the recoil out of the gun making even an 8” barrel with full power loads easy to shoot by anyone.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9154/tromixwindow20rounddrumxe3.jpg

And FWIW: I doubt the liberals and/or the ATF care about what is considered “hunting related” or “competition related” when they are considering an AWB. As one senior Senator and sponsor of the AWB put it in 1994 after it passed, "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America turn them all in, I would have done it." - Sen Feinstein, CA (and she is still there and doing everything she can to pass another one).

Don’t kid yourselves folks. It’s pretty much a sure bet. .Gov is very interested in what firearms law-abiding citizens have in their hands. And the Senate knows that criminals don't care what laws are passed and if the weapon they are using is "illegal" or "against the law" as they are commiting a crime anyway, which what makes them a criminal. The real scary part is that the Government is seemingly trying to make criminals out of anyone that owns a gun. It is about control pure and simple. If you want a Saiga-12 get it or regret it later should you change your mind.

Be safe

:)

[Ben Shepherd]

It is a full time operation, but given his clientelle base, he's just way behind.

[rundm]

Call Will at Red Jacket Firearms. Top rate and comes with a serious warranty. Mine should be ready in another month.

[Fred Fuller]

sernv99,

You can't really substitute hardware for software. If you have the knowledge, skills and abilities to put ANY shotgun to capable use, then most any shotgun will do. If you lack those KSAs, then it won't really matter very much what gun is in your hands.

In other words, develop your KSAs FIRST- then worry about which tool you use. The investment in yourself will always turn out to be much more valuable in the long run than the investment in one piece of hardware or another.

Of course, just buying hardware is much easier, and more importantly is no threat to the ego- which is why so many people are more willing to go that route IMNSHO. Putting oneself in the hands of a professional instructor, and being asked to perform various drills in front of a group of fellow shooters, means the risk looking foolish... or worse. That's what I mean by a threat to the ego. One professional trainer recently put it: "Your gear must support your ability... ." ( http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/6315 or http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1769.0 ) While I don't agree with a lot of the other stuff put forward in that particular essay, this statement IMHO is spot on.

hth,

lpl

[eddie c-clamp]

Check out the Saiga 12 forum website.....Theres several gents over there that do the conversions....:)

[WardenWolf]

http://www.saigastock.com

They have mags in various sizes.

[StealthyBlagga]

1) Get a standard (unconverted) Saiga12 now - preferrably the 19" version, but get what you can as they are hard to find.
2) Shoot it as-is until you can find someone to convert it, or do the conversion yourself.

I would get at least the basic gun now, as it could be banned in a few months. The conversion is easy and only takes a few hours and a few hundred $$$. If you screw up or want it changed later, the specialist gunsmiths can fix just about anything, and time will be on your side at that point.

Here is my home conversion:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/Saiga12grass.jpg

[notorious]

These must not be CA legal....

[lipadj46]

The Saiga 12 in it's stock form I do believe is CA legal. It is legal in NY also. A converted Saiga 12 in the AK format though is then legally an assault weapon because of the pistol grip unless you put say a Dragunov stock on it.

[notorious]

Do you have any info on the original Saiga shotgun? I have only seen the Saiga .223 and 7.62 here in CA and they have the regular monte carlo stock and the AK looking receiver.

[Guero4179]

I disagree on the S12. A traditional tube gun can be loaded as you shoot and won't be banned anytime soon and looks harmless and sporting.

[Javelin]

I disagree on the S12. A traditional tube gun can be loaded as you shoot and won't be banned anytime soon and looks harmless and sporting.

So a Saiga cannot be loaded as you shoot? Oh you must mean that the Saiga is loaded 5-20 rounds at a time. And you think that a liberal thinks your military-style pump shotgun is harmless looking and will exclude it from a grab list? Please go on.

[lipadj46]

Google Saiga and look at the Russian American Arms website they have the same stocks as the Saiga rifles and the triggers are in the same position (back where the pistol grip would be on an AK). Just in general the Saiga 12 looks like any other Saiga rifle but with a big honkin' smooth bore shogun barrel sticking out the end. Since they are the not AKs and have the hunting stocks like the Saiga rifles they should be legal in CA. I know there are californians on the Saiga 12 forums who always complain they can't get anyone to ship them 10 round mags even though they are legal.

Oh and during the ban and in ban states now a pump shotgun that holds more than 5 rounds in the tube and has has a pistol grip is/was an assault weapon and is/was banned

[Girodin]

I disagree on the S12. A traditional tube gun can be loaded as you shoot and won't be banned anytime soon and looks harmless and sporting.

The same can be said for my lever gun over my AR or AKs but I'd take the later for "tactical" purposes same with the S12.

[Javelin]

Google Saiga and look at the Russian American Arms website they have the same stocks as the Saiga rifles and the triggers are in the same position (back where the pistol grip would be on an AK). Just in general the Saiga 12 looks like any other Saiga rifle but with a big honkin' smooth bore shogun barrel sticking out the end. Since they are the not AKs and have the hunting stocks like the Saiga rifles they should be legal in CA. I know there are californians on the Saiga 12 forums who always complain they can't get anyone to ship them 10 round mags even though they are legal.

Oh and during the ban and in ban states now a pump shotgun that holds more than 5 rounds in the tube and has has a pistol grip is/was an assault weapon and is/was banned

According to an exporter (Freakshow Bullet Co.) the Saiga is legal in its original form so long as the detachable magazine is fixed to the firearm so that it cannot be removed. He apparently ships them over there..... so he says and he is an industry dude so I guess I will believe him unless someone can say otherwise. CA law makes no sense to me and nor do I get excited about trying to understand it.

:)

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Is the price of magazines for Saiga the biggest drawback?

No, the biggest drawbacks are:

1. The sights are off, and there's no way to adjust the height and make it hit to the point of aim, so you need a sight/scope of some kind (it needs a taller front sight); AND if you do use a sight/scope, the sight line is quite high from most mounts/rings/scopes.
2. Bad ergos: The long mags are awkward and make it difficult/impossible to shoot quickly from prone - overall they are just less ergo and handy; they are heavy, etc. Some of the bad ergos can be remedied quite nicely with expensive aftermarket parts, but not the mag being in the way. As far as being heavy, see #1 above - the (basically required) mounts tend to be big/heavy.

But they DO have their upsides (extremely fast, extremely reliable, and capacity, capacity, capacity!) :)

[notorious]

Thanks!

[lipadj46]

I don't think the mag has to be fixed because there is not a pistol grip or any other "evil" part. For example in CA the M14 is legal as long as it does not have a flash suppressor also the regular Saiga rifles are legal because they are just a semi auto hunting rifle. I believe with the Saiga 12 is the same thing it is legal as long as you don't add a pistol grip or convert it to a Kalashnikov type weapon. I could be wrong as I am more familiar with the NY ban but this is what I have read about CA gun laws.

The saigas are far from the perfect shotgun. If you are looking for an all around good hunting shotgun buy an 870 or 500. If you want a kick a$$ AK type shotgun for HD and fun blasting and maybe for deer hunting go for it. I agree with others though, I bet if there is another ban they will probably add the saiga rifles ad shotguns to the list of Kalashnikov type rifles. That is a big if though we will see.

[freakshow10mm]

In California you can't have a shotgun with a detachable magazine. If it has a fixed magazine you're fine.

I have the mag locks for the Saiga 12 shotguns. I only ship Saiga shotguns to my business associate in Fresno, PRK Arms. The mag lock is proprietary and is $50.

If you are looking for a Saiga 12 to go to CA, have them ship to me (Freakshow Manufacturing) and I can handle it for you. It's $30 transfer and $30 shipping/insurance. I'm on file with DD's Ranch and R&R Arms. I am the number one importer of Saiga shotguns, AR pistols, and Masterpiece Arms guns to California. The DOJ hates me. That means I'm doing something right.

[Gunfighter123]

Hello,
As I stated in other Saiga S-12 posts ---- the tube fed SG will be like the black powder revolvers . Once they are mainstream -- the tube fed SG will be only used for non-military usage.

As to the sights being"off" --- I have really not seen that as a issue at the Saiga gun Net boards and I have not seen it in person after looking/handleing 30/40 S-12s.

Yes -- with a 10rd. mag it would be hard to shoot prone. UNLESS you tip the SG to the left side when fireing!!!! I again don't see that as a issue as about ALL Military long-arms are mag fed. ---- people could say the same thing about AR15/M16s ---- unless you are REALLY prone , useing your elbows as a "bipod" is the cure.

To those "older folks" like me --- I remember reading things of that nature when the M-14 came out over the Garand.

The Saiga S-12 ,as it is now ,is just the "tip of the iceberg" ----- there are Speed Mag release's ,speed mag wells , double stack hi-cap mags , etc. etc. being made or on the drawing board.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00862.jpg

As seen above -- I own most kinds of SG actions , my "go to" SG is now the S-12 -- the rest are gathering dust !!! LOL

[22lr]

I would buy a saiga just to play with. Im old school enough that id never grap anything but my trusty 500 pump for real work:evil:. No need to jump all over me but I enjoy the sound of the slide racking back and new shell being inserted and no funny vibrations felt when you pull the trigger. But again im just biased against all semi shotguns so take that with a grain of salt (or two).

[Mr. Bojangles]

I love my saiga, and I love my 870. Deciding which is better is like deciding between a 30.06 and an M4. Apples and oranges.

[missouri dave]

Since any fight involving a shotgun would almost certainly be a shorter range (oh, say less than 50 yards) and likely against a moving target, I can't see how the prone thing can be much of an issue. With a rifle at longer range yes. Shotgun at shorter range, don't think so. Most of the other complaints I've seen here about the saiga aren't that hard to address. Very few weapons are perfect right out of the box with no modification.

[notorious]

I don't think you have enough smoothbores there.

[ArmedBear]

Most of the other complaints I've seen here about the saiga aren't that hard to address.

...except that the Saiga is probably the single worst-handling firearm I've ever held, the LAST thing I'd want to use on a moving target that was trying to kill me.

It's not about the magazine, it's about the design of the whole thing.

the tube fed SG will be like the black powder revolvers

Interestingly, revolvers remain quite popular as carry guns -- not cap-n-ball of course, but little Smith and Wessons that aren't much different from their predecessors from before WW I.

I suspect that the tube-fed shotgun won't be going away soon, either. And actual military use of shotguns exists, but is limited.

[notorious]

Tube fed shotguns aren't going away anytime soon. Too many police departments, hunters, sportsmen, etc. all still go to the tube fed pump as the old standard.

[Gunfighter123]

I suspect that the tube-fed shotgun won't be going away soon, either. And actual military use of shotguns exists, but is limited.
__________________
Tube fed shotguns aren't going away anytime soon. Too many police departments, hunters, sportsmen, etc. all still go to the tube fed pump as the old standard.
__________________

Yes --- they will not be going away SOON --- I still remember when ALL police had REVOLVERS and what do they ALL have now ???

[ArmedBear]

what do they ALL have now

Uh, some still have revolvers, at least where I used to live. A whole department.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference.

Semiautos (at least some of them) point and shoot very well. If they were as god-awful to handle, compared to a revolver, as a Saiga is vs. most other shotguns, cops would be BEGGING for their revolvers back.

A shotgun has certain purposes, essentially all of which -- defense, hunting, police, military, clay shooting, whatever -- rely on its ability to point and shoot naturally and quickly.

The Saiga 12 is a fine stand-in for a civilian-legal SAW, something that can send a bunch of buckshot downrange quickly. But it does not replace a quick-pointing shotgun.

I don't doubt that someone will come up with a tractable shotgun with a detachable magazine. The Saiga isn't it, however.

[Gunfighter123]

Hi ABear,

I would be interested if you would post or PM me what PD still uses revolvers as standard issue. Sure, there are a VERY FEW revolvers in use by police but I would guess that 99.9% of ALL police have gone to the auto handgun ---- reason being , higher capasity and faster reloads --- just like the Saiga shotgun.

You may not be aware that in the old USSR almost all the SWAT teams are useing Saiga S-12s ---- if you do a search at the Saiga boards , you will find many reports of people shooting Trap/Skeet with the Saigas and hitting 23/25 birds etc.
Guess they handle fine for those people.

Edit --As you said --- as of NOW , there is a limited use by Military units for the shotgun , I think that will change as we get into more URBAN fighting ,which the SG is great for.

[JImbothefiveth]

I think that will change as we get into more URBAN fighting
Since the leaders want to leave Iraq, I think urban fighting is going to decline. (Actually, I think it's been on the decline for a while now.)

[ArmedBear]

Gunfighter, why do you give a crap, one way or another?

If you think the Saiga handles like a skeet gun, well, that makes one of us who thinks so, and a lot of us who are probably laughing.

Like I said, detachable magazines are probably in the shotgun's future, but the Saiga leaves much to be desired, whether or not the Russkies use them. The Russians have used all sorts of things over the years, some good, some bad, and some good only because they were crude enough to be shockingly reliable.

Not sure that some discussions are worth having.:)

Oh, and WRT urban warfare, it's hard to say. A few dead children and shotguns will be vetoed politically, if not tactically, for large-scale military use.

[Gunfighter123]

"Gunfighter, why do you give a crap, one way or another?"

ArmedBear ---- good comeback -- I really don't give "a crap" ---- when I see "info" on the Net -- I ask if it is a OPINION or a FACT.

You have stated your OPINION -- I have stated mine along with some facts.

I have NEVER said that the S-12 handles like a Skeet gun -- only that there are people who have shot skeet with them among other useage.

"Not sure that some discussions are worth having."

I have had polite DISCUSSIONS with other people who disagree with me about the Saiga S-12s --- if we can't be polite , lets take our discussion off line and you can PM me etc.

[notorious]

It's a moot point since the People's Republic of Kommiefornia does not allow it anyway.

[cbrgator]

So is the Saiga good for HD or not?

[lipadj46]

I believe so.

[cbrgator]

Well, I'm about to buy one Monday so I gotta know!!!

[Ironballs]

I bought the S12, and sold it about 4 days later. The lack of a bolt hold open made it a paid to swap mags (unless you leave them underloaded I guess). Plus it feels rickety to me compared to the Remington 870... and for whatever reason, I thought it kicked more too.

For what its worth, I bought and sold a FNSLP, M1S90, and pumps by Winchester and Mossy.


My Remington 870 (express, Police, and wingmaster) and 11-87P I considered keepers at first shot.

[lipadj46]

Well they do have a bolt hold open just not a LRBHO and all the magazines are made to be loaded with space left in them. If you think a gas operated shotgun kicks more than a pump I doubt you even fired it. Also I would not confuse light weight for cheapness they are very tough weapons.

[Ironballs]

"If you think a gas operated shotgun kicks more than a pump I doubt you even fired it."

Yes I shot it. Perception comes from many things. I believe the hard dense and thin decelerator, combined with the lack of 'fit' to shoulder/cheek, etc. is what caused it to feel like it kicked more, then a nice 870 with a walnut and R3 (with excellent fit). My 11-87p (also a gas gun) kicks less (though she is heavier and thus should shoot lighter) and definitely my modded 870P's in SpecOps stocks with VC bbl work are pussycats compared to the S12. Why do I get the feeling that any criticism of the S12 will be reacted to like spit in the eye?

[notorious]

CBRGator, good for HD compared to what? Any gun that you can use with skill is good for HD. A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 12 gauge, they say.

[Ben Shepherd]

I believe the hard dense and thin decelerator, combined with the lack of 'fit' to shoulder/cheek,

Yep, there's the secret. Poor fit will make percieved recoil very high.

[cbrgator]

CBRGator, good for HD compared to what? Any gun that you can use with skill is good for HD. A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 12 gauge, they say.

Compared to a Mossberg 930.

[JImbothefiveth]

If you don't have loaded mags nearby, the 930 might actually be better.

[cbrgator]

Well, its for HD, so there would be a mag in it at all times.

[Gunfighter123]

You can buy a Mossberg , chances are the value will not go up much in the future.
Or you could buy a Saiga --- almost a sure bet to increase in value.

I think you already know my thoughts as to your question asking if a S-12 is good for HD ----YES

[lipadj46]

If you don't have loaded mags nearby, the 930 might actually be better.

I keep mine with a 10 round mag (loaded with 00 buck) in it with the bolt locked back. I also have 2 other 10 round mags loaded with 00 buck and another 4, 5 round mags loaded with slugs. All mags are in a shoulder slung bag that I can pick up quick. So that is 50 rounds of double 00 buck I have in one neat package no fumbling around for shells in the middle of the night.

[cbrgator]

Well, haven't heard anything convincing enough to the contrary so, looks like I'm ordering one Monday. :) YAY

[eddie c-clamp]

Good for you:)

[lipadj46]

Well, haven't heard anything convincing enough to the contrary so, looks like I'm ordering one Monday. YAY

Do yourself a favor have whoever you are buying it from to remove the gas plug and count the number of gas vents. If it only has 2 or 3 (with 1 or 2 partially blocked) don't buy it. You want 4 unblocked gas vents or at least 3 unblocked. The feeling is the new models may have 3 larger holes but 4 is ideal. Supposedly a batch of shotguns bound for the Russian military got sent to RAA and these were made to function with 3" buck shot shells so only 2 holes were called for. You will probably not be able to cycle any low brass shot shells if you have a 2 hole model. RAA will have you send it to Cadiz Gun Works in Ohio to get it fixed and they will pay for shipping each way. But it sucks to get a shotgun and have to send it right away to get fixed. I know this because it happened to me and if it happens to you just call Clyde from RAA and he will put you in touch with Tom Cole from CGW.

[cbrgator]

I'm going to order it from Centerfire. You think that's something they'll know?

[lipadj46]

Probably not and I am not sure if they would be willing or able to look for you. It is worth a try though. Just something to keep an eye out for when you get it. Like I said RAA is fixing them under warranty and supposedly it is like a 10 day turn around. I sent mine in but weaseled my way onto the conversion list at CGW so I have not got mine back yet.

[cbrgator]

Are all Saiga 12's made by RAA?

[lipadj46]

They are imported exclusively by RAA and made by Izhmash in Russia

[BobAsh]

Get a Saiga, at least as an investment. Tromix makes all the stuff you need to do the pistol-grip conversion yourself.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/DSCF0001.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/8inchSaiga12.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x8/BobAsh_album/img010small-1.jpg

[SN13]

Hey Bob. Good to see you over here too.

He's right, Tromix makes DIY parts which really ease the conversion.

There are other manufacturers of similar parts, and they are good as well.

If you own a Saiga12 and have never been to Saiga-12.com, you're missing out.

[DMGunn]

Wow. All the negativity regarding the S-12 is surprising to me. I've used a few shotguns in the past with little to no enthusiasm. In fact, I am in the middle of pheasant country, and have never willingly gone bird hunting. Well, that was before I got my Saiga.....now I am out with a friend shooting clays anytime the temp is above 25F, and I can't get enough of the damn thing. It points so instinctively (with a cheap M4-type stock), that I have trouble missing! I love the thing. Yeah, its a little rough around the edges, like anything Russian, but it cycles anything, and contrary to other opinions, is quite light and pointable, at least in its current configuration - I agree it is quite a different story in stock condition. I am now hooked on shotguns, and will be hunting pheasants with gusto this year.

I suspect you will be very happy that you went ahead and bought one.

[lipadj46]

I believe there are only a few vocal Saiga 12 haters here. I've said a bunch of times that the S12 points and aims as well as any other platform it just take a bit of acclimation. I believe even the moderator here did a big writeup on the S12 a while back that was positive. They do have there issues though and you have to be willing to fix them or ignore them. One problem that is hard to ignore these days is the huge batch of Saigas with too few or misaligned gas vent holes. Mine is at Cadiz Gun Works getting fixed under warranty. I was worried at first about the warranty but RAA is a stand up bunch.

[rbthntr64]

Call Will at Red Jacket Firearms. Top rate and comes with a serious warranty. Mine should be ready in another month.
+100 Will is one of the best! http://www.redstick-firearms.com/

[notorious]

Will is awesome. There's nobody more awesome than Will!

+100000

[6x6pinz]

It is easy to tell who has used a Saiga and who has just held one. These guns just seem to automatically point to target. I believe that the heavier barrel weight over the light stock helps the shooter to follow through and hit the moving targets much more effortlessly. I took several novice shotgun guys out shooting clays. They brought their rem 870's and defenders and were doing ok for new guys to the shotgun world. I would follow up and clean up any birds they missed with my S12. My S12 only has a polychoke on it, I use if for duck/geese and ocassionally dove. When they used my S12 their percentages imediately jumped to around 80 percent of birds hit on first shot. All three of them now own S12's two in 19 and one in 24" barrels. This coming dove season is going to be rough on the birds here in AZ.

While I don't like a shotgun for HD and I would trust my Saiga's with my life I don't think any mag fed, tube or detachable, shotgun would be a good choice. Stay with a double barrel and call it good. I don't invision twenty intruders coming in at once so the need for multiple rounds is just silly.

[Gunfighter123]

Hiya 6X6 ,

I'm glad to hear you like your S-12 , mine has become my favorite SG.
I just want to make a point that around here { Chicago area } I don't feel like my dbl. brl. SGs would be enough for SD. -- the reason being , Bad Guys rarely are alone when they do violent crime --- if there are three or four BGs in a car and they have a "beef" with you , they can call on their cell phone and another 2 or 3 car loads can show up within minutes { even before the police } --- now you could have from 5 to 20 "bangers" to deal with. The BGs run in packs around here and in most large urban areas.
Just my reason for having the S-12 as my main shotgun.
Stay safe , GF123

[6x6pinz]

I guess we are lucky. All we have to deal with are the illegals. If you drop one the rest run. I personally don't like the idea of a shotgun for SD. A good hi cap pistol works much better for me. If I had to choose a SG I would want one that I knew was going to work. I see your point if you are concerned about more than one or two bad guys though.
If you missed it check out my new toy, I bet it would work well for HD. It is a Safir T14
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/6x6pinz/firearms/100_2463.jpg

[Gunfighter123]

Hi 6X6,
That is a VERY cool .410 ya got there ---- I keep my M1A Socom under my bed loaded with DT .308s and a few extra 20rd. mags -- JUST IN CASE !!!!!!!!! LOL
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00871.jpg

[6x6pinz]

Gunfighter123
Thanks, and you sure know how to make a guy jealous. I still am in search of my M1A

[notorious]

I am saving up for my Socom16.

[Bufford t. Justice]

Why wait for Tromix? Anyone with a general mechanical knowledge and simple hand tools can covert any Saiga to originaly intended Kalishnikov form in a short time and for minimal expense. Get the Saiga before you can't.

[_JT_]

Tromix is a big name and has a good resale value compared to someone's garage work. Either way, you are waiting forever to Tony to do one, so buy two, one for you to tinker, and one for Tony

[Bufford t. Justice]

Why would I want to pay for someone elses name? I have one of my own. I never pay anyone to do something I'm perfectly capable of doing for myself. It would be a waste of his time and my money.

[azhunter12]

Bufford is right. I'm 15 and I converted my .223 saiga with minimal help from my dad. He just puntched out one bolt thats pretty much it. Just convert it yourself.