Win 1300 Double Feeding Problem


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MotorOilMcCall
January 3, 2009, 12:34 PM
Well, I bought the gun used on GunBroker, and sure enough, its double feeding. The thing was filthy, but I cleaned it and its still double feeding. Should the shell catch stay depressed even after one shell is already loaded? I can't tell...

Is there anything anyone can recommend to solve this problem? I went goose hunting this morning and the thing jammed up half a dozen times... Not cool.:banghead:

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CrankyOldGuy
January 3, 2009, 04:06 PM
After I read your post I took a look at my 1300 and I must admit I can't see how this could occur.

The carrier rises with the shell on top as the bolt moves forward and chambers the shell. At the end of the stroke the carrier drops ready for the next round but there is no way for a second shell to feed at this point.

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying? Do you mean that two shells are leaving the magazine tube at the same time?

mokin
January 3, 2009, 06:24 PM
I am ashamed to admit the level of abuse I my 1300 has been subjected to and yet I don't ever recall it failling to go boom when (and only when) I pull the trigger. The only thing I can think of is wrong size shells or maybe the carrier is worn to the point where the shell rims slip. Have you tried different brands of ammo?

TX1911fan
January 3, 2009, 09:16 PM
I know with my 1300, because of the SpeedPump system, I have occasionally pumped it too fast after firing and that caused some problems, but I've never had it double feed. Even though I own 5 other shotguns, I still love my 1300. It's a fantastic gun.

Milkmaster
January 3, 2009, 09:28 PM
As I have mentioned here several times, I am a big fan of the 1300. I own a couple of them that have never had any problems. I am assuming by the term "shell catch" you mean the stop that prevents a shell from coming out of the magazine? Or are you speaking about the shell lifter that raises the shell to be pushed into the chamber? Do you think you could get it to double feed whle cycling it slowly?

I would like TX1911fan to give us a little better description of what is happening. Maybe then we can offer some suggestions or even try to duplicate it here.

Deadmanwalking_05
January 3, 2009, 09:34 PM
I've never had that happen with either shotgun (Both Model 1300's in 12 and 20)

Pete409
January 4, 2009, 12:48 AM
McCall,

You may not be pushing the shells into the magazine far enough. Try pushing them farther into the magazine with your thumb when loading them.

Then, when you shoot the shell in the chamber, rack the slide HARD (back and forth) like you're trying to abuse the gun. Don't baby it or that will cause feeding problems.

mnrivrat
January 4, 2009, 02:35 AM
The design, like most all other guns of its style, has a shell latch and an interuptor to regulate the shells from the magazine tube. On your Winchester the shell control latch and interuptor are locarted on the front section of the trigger housing assy.

They are controled by the action assy bar and while the shell latch releases a shell from the magazine in the early portion of the rearward travel of the action bar, the interuptor should close off the magazine tube prior to the first shell clearing the tube.

Worn or damaged parts, as well as cleanlyness can cause your problem. If the gun is clean, then the interuptor needs to be adjusted or replaced.

PS: The two parts that regulate the shell feeding from the tube magazine sometimes are called different names , such as shell stops, shell latches, shell interuptors. Their function is the same no matter what they are called. They control the release of shells from the magazine.

MotorOilMcCall
January 4, 2009, 11:56 AM
Well, like I said in the first post, the gun does it clean or dirty, pumped fast or slow. It is not the lift that jams, its that 2 shells leave the magazine tube at the same time, one following the other. In fact, what I do is pull the barrel, smack the end of the magazine tube against my hand to get the first shell to pop up into the receiver (the upper part), pop that out and let the next one feed. Well occasionally not only will the second shell pop past the catch, but the third will as well when I un-jam the first two shells, so I have 3 shells trying to load into the receiver at one time. I've looked, and pulled the trigger assembly out (to clean it) and I can't find a way to fix the thing by my way of thinking.

BTW, I love my 1300's, more so than an 870, and I've never had this problem with any of my others, thats part of the reason I'm having trouble fixing this one. If all else fails I'll have to take it to a gunsmith.

CrankyOldGuy
January 4, 2009, 12:46 PM
Ah, sorry for my thick-headedness. I understand now.
I think perhaps mnrivrat's "interruptor" advice is corrrect.

I was unable to find and exploded diagram of a 1300 trigger group on the web but I did find an assembly guide at gun-guides.com for $9 shipped. (The factory manual does not show the trigger group asssembly as you've probably discovered)

mnrivrat
January 4, 2009, 04:17 PM
The Winchester shell stop & interuptor sit on the large metal side rails on both sides of the trigger group. The active parts are rivoted onto the front of these side rails and are controlled in and out by the action bars.

Should not be a big ticket fix for a Smith. (Approx $50) Be aware that parts for this model are starting to dry up however.

kirbythegunsmith
January 4, 2009, 04:39 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way, because it might seem that I'm enjoying busting your chops.

All the guesses by those not familiar with these mechanisms (i.e. not gunsmiths) do no good when dealing with unique mechanisms or unusual problems.

The most likely situation here is a broken plastic feed throat, which happens to be a special problem not usually seen by shooters, just experienced repair personnel, since that happens to be a seldom-broken part.

The feed throat (including those on Remington shotguns seen atop the rear edge of the mag. tube when the barrel is off) is the fixed part of the control mechanism for feeding shells, in that it pinches the entryway for shells to be able to be restricted by a small motion of a shell stop. The shell is held to the side of the mag. tube exit or funneled centrally to allow the primary and secondary shell stop do their job.

Too much room (because a piece is absent) allows the shell to slip past the edge that could normally control feeding, so the shell stops may very well be intact and working as expected, but they do need the assistance of the feed throat.

A feed throat is best changed by a gunsmith familiar with the procedures needed to ensure that the new plastic part is not damaged or has any interference that requires fitting to allow proper operation.

You may be able to see a piece has gone missing from the plastic, especially with the trigger assembly removed.
Grab the flashlight and let us know.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

CrankyOldGuy
January 4, 2009, 04:51 PM
Untrue Kirby! :neener:
We kept the topic alive until someone smarter then us noticed it.




...and you were busting our chops. No offense taken. :)

Fred Fuller
January 4, 2009, 05:15 PM
ETA- What Kirby said above re the magazine throats- plastic breaks or wears more often than metal... he posted while I was still typing. BTW, if I missed anything or got anything wrong, please correct me...
---------------------------------------
Please note- I am not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on teevee. The instructions below are for a simple field strip of a Winchester 1200/1300, suitable for basic cleaning and inspection for worn or broken parts. Read through the instructions before beginning disassembly. A link is provided below for owners manuals as well.

IF you do not feel you are able to follow these instructions, or find them overly confusing, take your gun to a qualified gunsmith for inspection, cleaning and repair if necessary.

There's an exploded drawing of a Winchester 1200 (which is functionally the same as a 1300) at http://www.urban-armory.com/diagrams/win1200.htm . The shell stops (left and right) are riveted to the slide supports (Part #57102 & 59102), which are in turn attached to the trigger guard assembly with screws.

Before attempting any disassembly, first be sure the magazine and chamber are clear of any ammunition. Then, with the hammer cocked, the bolt about halfway open and safety on, remove the magazine cap and take off the barrel.

Close the action gently. There will be no barrel extension to meet up with the bolt- take it easy closing the bolt.

Don't pull the trigger with the trigger guard assembly out of the gun- explosive disassembly might result :D. Keep the safety ON while handling this assembly.

With the action closed and the safety on, remove the trigger guard pin. Removing the single trigger guard pin (Part #66102) will allow the removal and inspection of the trigger guard assembly, including the attached shell stops. Push the pin out from left to right with a suitable implement like a pin punch or golf tee (reinstall in reverse order), and with the bottom of the action facing up, pull the trigger guard gently up and then back to remove it from the receiver.

Look for badly worn or broken parts on the shell stops. There's no need to disassemble the trigger guard assembly further. If it needs cleaning, a soak in a solution of Simple Green or the like and hot water, followed by a gentle brushing with a soft brush, rinsing in hot water and/or blowing out with 'canned air' or compressed air, followed by a careful drying (residual heat from a hot water rinse should be sufficient to dry the internal parts in a few minutes, when excess water is shaken out) and re-lubrication, will suffice.

If the shell stops appear intact, then it's necessary to remove the forearm assembly in order to inspect the actuating cuts on the action bars (one on each, IIRC) which engage the shell stops and move them aside sequentially as the action is worked.

Remove the slide arm bridge retaining screw (Part #2514), which will be visible in the bottom of the bolt assembly on the right side of the underside of the bolt (as facing the front of the gun).

Turn the gun over so the top of the receiver faces up, with the magazine tube horizontal. Slide the forearm slowly off the magazine tube to the front- as you do so, note the correct position of the ejector, which is against the wall of the receiver opposite the ejection port, so you can replace it later.

Removing the bolt assembly will free the ejector from its slot in the side of the bolt and the pin set into the side of the receiver, and allow it to fall from inside the receiver. Set the ejector safely aside.

This step will remove the bolt assembly from inside the receiver as well. The bolt assembly will be sitting atop the action bars. Be careful not to shake the bolt assembly off the action bars. Remove the bolt assembly from the action bars, carefully noting its place in the notches that retain it. The slide bridge on the bottom of the bolt also retains the spring loaded firing pin, and with the screw removed there is nothing to keep it in its place. Be careful handling it, to avoid unintentional disassembly. Carefully remove it while restraining the firing pin, noting the proper relationship of the parts, and set the bolt components aside.

Also be very careful not to bump the front of the magazine tube- it is held in place inside the receiver in a pair of plastic 'clamshells' (Parts # 40102 and 42102) and can be pushed out of place pretty easily when unsupported by the trigger guard assembly. These plastic parts are about the only real design weakness of the 1200/1300- they can get brittle, especially with age or in the presence of some harsh chemicals, and might crumble or break under the smallest pressure. Be careful...

As noted earlier, when you remove the bolt assembly you will also free the ejector (Part # 22102) from its place inside the receiver as well. The long 'tail' of the ejector has a slot that rides on a pin set into the left side of the receiver opposite the ejection port. The pin will help retain the ejector in place as you reinstall the bolt assembly later.

Inspect the action bars, and be sure the notches that engage the shell stops are not excessively worn, bent or damaged.

Inspect the plastic 'clamshells' and make sure they are not broken or damaged.

Clean whatever needs cleaning, carefully, and with no further disassembly.

Then reassemble carefully in reverse order... make sure everything goes back in its proper place.

Owners manuals are still available for viewing online at http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/om/index.asp and may offer more help in disassembly/reassembly than you find here.

hth,

lpl (who has a 1200/1300 or two also)

kirbythegunsmith
January 4, 2009, 06:01 PM
Notice that I did say "enjoying"....

Anybody see that crack just developing in this feed throat? There is also an adjoining vertical crack adjacent.

Also notice that the throats have one piece, since the two piece version was phased out a long time ago in favor of the single piece. The tube is very unlikely to come ajar without a hammer or severe droppage with these press-in throats. They are not fragile when assembled, except to unruly use of screwdrivers and the like.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/shotgun/140-17.jpg

Here is a view of the tools, throats, and release buttons for semi-auto versions:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/shotgun/140-17a.jpg

Here is a view of the Remington feed throat (plus frame edge), seen as the black edges opposite each other, and the shell stop (latch) is sticking out in a prominent fashion.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/shotgun/1187-mb2JPGa.jpg

No posting would be complete without a view of the obvious problem first seen when the customer arrived, plus a similar recent result in a related barrel:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/shotgun/x3-6.jpg

Don't let anybody kid you- see that factory installations can be crooked enough to make a choke problem that can be dangerous.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

mnrivrat
January 4, 2009, 09:23 PM
Perhaps it is the magazine feed throat - perhaps not . All are quesses without seeing the gun.

Frankly, I have seen more bad shell stops than bad throats, but that may change for a person who lives in different climate. Look at both, or have a local smith check it out.

Pete409
January 4, 2009, 09:35 PM
This particular situation involving McCall's Winchester 1300 shotgun may very well require a gunsmith to repair. If so, that would place it in the distinct minority of shotgun problems encountered on this forum.

I would estimate that at least 80% (and perhaps 90%) of all gun problems we hear about here are easily fixed by the gun owner. Usually it is a matter of learning how to clean, assemble, or operate the gun properly. Occasionally it may require some simple parts replacement that almost anyone can do.

With that in mind, I intend to continue making suggestions to people who ask for help with their shotgun problems. Even if my suggestions don't lead directly to a "fix" of the problem, at least we've identified a few things that AREN'T the problem.

At worst, the gun owner usually ends up with a cleaner shotgun and a better understanding of how it works. If, after the attempts to fix/cure the problem from our suggestions the gun continues to malfunction, then the gun owner is in no worse position than when he first asked for help because he still has the option to take it to a gunsmith for repair.

Further, the gun owner will be comforted in knowing that he didn't pay some gunsmith to fix some simple problem that he himself (the gunowner) could have fixed in 15 minutes with some advice from me or others on this board. Sometimes a professional gunsmith is needed, but way more often than not, he isn't. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)

MotorOilMcCall
January 5, 2009, 09:45 AM
Well, thanks to Kirby and everyone else, I found the feed throat, and it is indeed worn out, with small chips missing from it. I never even noticed it before, so I never checked it. I've been using and cleaning shotguns for years, and I have 3 other 1300's that I've never had had a problem with them, and they all stay cleaned and oiled. I'll be dropping it off at the smith's to have him change it out. He owe's me anyway, lol.

kirbythegunsmith
January 6, 2009, 12:53 AM
Hopefully the haste of my first post was not responsible for any misplaced notions that I was telling others to not give advice, since that wouldn't be like me to belittle anyone's knowledge base.
Any possibilities of help or improvement of a situation will always be welcome when the person giving advice is providing information that they KNOW or have been advised by a reliable source. I would only take exception to somebody posting something as fact when they have absolutely no idea. If somebody is guessing, usually they post that it is a "S.W.A.G." or that they are not absolutely sure, so any caveat is recommended when there is a less-than-absolute certainty.
If I remember correctly, I believe, it could be, is this a possibility, I've been told,etc. have all been used by those sincerely wanting to help but wanting readers to understand that the information may need verification.

Sound like a plan and would an apology for any unintended slight be accepted?

Thanks for the indulgence.
kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

Pete409
January 6, 2009, 02:57 PM
Kirby,

Certainly. Apparently I misunderstood your intent.

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