Reloading 10mm auto?


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Paladin_Hammer
January 3, 2009, 09:13 PM
Found a good Tanfoglio Force at a shop today in 10mm auto. I know its a hard-kicking handgun, but when its only $400 for a 10mm auto, its a steal.

Problem is that 10mm auto is rare. Really rare. Buying it online is just about my only option and that is expensive (I found a box of twenty on Midwayusa for 25.99).

Anyone have any reloading data for 10mm? Does anyone know any shop that carries reloading equipment for it? Specifically any molds?

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ReloaderFred
January 3, 2009, 10:10 PM
It's not hard to find components for 10mm at all. I've got about 9,000 rounds of brass, and about the same amount of bullets. You can find brass at scharch.com and starlinebrass.com. Both companies make virgin 10mm brass. My preference is for the Top Brass from Scharch.

Dies are also available from all the major manufactures. If your dealer doesn't have them, or won't order them, then order from one of the online sellers.

I've got several 10mm handguns and revolvers. Great guns.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Beagle-zebub
January 3, 2009, 11:47 PM
Does this thing have a square slide, like older Witnesses, or is it rounded? If it's rounded, owners say that only "light" 10mm loads should be fired through it, so only .40 S&W equivalent loads, or else the slide might crack. Googling this subject will get you better info than listening to me, though.

41 Mag
January 4, 2009, 08:10 AM
Personally I have found that Accurate powders #7 and #9 work for most of the loads I use in mine. It burns clean enough and meters great through my progressive. I have shot just about all of the bullets weights from 135 through 200 and found that the 180's get most of the usage.

Mine is one that many have told me was a piece of #$@%, but it has served me well for the past 20 something years. It is a Stainless IAI Javalina which has the 7" barrel. The great thing about it is, I am getting 1350 fps with the 180 gr bullet and book load of AA-9, with no signs of pressure. It has digested this load almost since I got it,and still will shoot it tighter than I can hold out to 50 yds. I found years ago that the bullet it preferred was the Winchester bulk 180gr JHP. I have loaded, as mentioned, most major brands and every other weight. All shot decent enough but not as well as the Win 180. I have hunted with this pistol many times and taken several feral hogs with it.

Good luck with yours, I hold mine in high reguards no matter what the name on the side means to others. As to the hard recoil, well, I shoot magnum revolvers on a regular basis and what little recoil the 10 puts up is nothing in comparrison. Just work you up a good shooting load and enjoy it.

Redneck with a 40
January 4, 2009, 11:47 AM
Power Pistol and Hodgdon Longshot kick a** in the 10mm.

Bringsteen
January 4, 2009, 01:41 PM
Paladin Hammer,

You'll enjoy the 10mm. It is an outstanding cartridge.

I quit buying factory 10mm ammunition about 18 months ago. I can't tell from your post whether you are already a reloader. If you are, you already know the money you'll save. If you're not, you'll be shocked.

Go to Starline.com and buy a box of 1000 rounds of 10mm brass. It will cost $136, which includes the shipping. Unless you start shooting 5,000-10,000 rounds of 10mm a year, this box will last you 10 years, as Starline brass can be reloaded many times. $136 up front for brass might sound like a lot of money, but you will save money in the long run, and you will be feeding your gun just about the best brass out there. (For the record, the best 10mm brass is probably Hornady, but only marginally. But it is so much more expensive than Starline that it is not worth it.)

The best velocities are obtained with Accurate #9 and IMR 800-X. For target-strength ammunition, the choice is more a matter of personal preference. I prefer Vihtavuori N340 as it burns extremely clean and generates light recoil at a given velocity.

Redding, RCBS, and most of the other major mold makers offer 10MM/.40 molds.

For reloading dies, this again is more a matter of personal preference. I have a set of Redding titanium carbide dies because I am convinced that they are the best. The cheapest are made by Lee. Those that use Lee dies tend to swear by them and find that their quality is more than up to the task.

Enjoy.

Redneck with a 40
January 4, 2009, 04:03 PM
I just checked the data on the various powders suitable for 10mm, Blue Dot and Longshot both beat out AA#9 for top velocity with 180 grain bullets, although AA #9 is no slouch. Also, with 165 grain bullets, power pistol is it, 1360 fps.

Bringsteen
January 4, 2009, 04:51 PM
In the Complete Reloading Manual for 10mm/.40 S&W, the hottest Blue Dot load for a 180 grain bullet is 10.4 grains. This yields 1220fps at 35,800 psi.

In the 2008 Hodgdon Reloading Manual, the hottest Longshot load for a 180 grain bullet is 9.5 grains. This yields 1287fps at 34,600 psi.

In the Complete Reloading Manual for 10mm/.40 S&W, the hottest Accurate #9 load for a 180 grain bullet is 14.5 grains. This yields 1290 fps at 32,600 psi.

In the Complete Reloading Manual for 10mm/.40 S&W, the hottest IMR 800-X load for a 180 grain bullet is 9.7 grains. This yields 1320 fps at 34,200 psi.

Most 10mm devotees have settled on IMR 800-X as the best powder for maximum velocities. Its disadvantage is that it meters poorly. But if you are making hunting loads, you only load 100 or so at a time, so poor metering is not so much of a liability.

As important as the maximum velocity is, it is important to consider the ratio between the velocity and the psi. This is an indication of how high you can go before reaching the working pressure maximum (which in the 10mm is 37,500).

Taking this into consideration, Blue Dot is ruled out as a contender for maximum velocity loads with 180 grain bullets. With the above-referenced Blue Dot load, you only have 1900 psi to work with until you hit SAAMI maximum. It might even be unlikely that you could hit 1300 fps with Blue Dot without going over maximum.

Longshot has much more potential, but look at the difference between Longshot and Accurate #9: 1287 at 34,600 versus 1290 at 32,600. With Longshot you have 3100 psi to work with, while with Accurate #9 you have 5100 psi.

While I haven't worked up any 165 grain loads, I do note that in the 10mm Reloading Book, Power Pistol's fastest 150 grain load is 9.7 grains, moving at 1415 fps, with 35,600 psi. IMR 800-X's fastest 155 grain load is 11.6 grains, moving at 1475, with 32,900 psi.

A note to Paladin_Hammer, the original poster: whatever propellants you are using, be sure to work up to maximums. I don't know whether the Tanfoglio has a fully-supported barrel or not. If it doesn't you'll want to be extra cautious, even when working with published maximums. You may also want to invest in a heavier recoil spring whether it has a fully-supported barrel or not.

pinkymingeo
January 4, 2009, 05:08 PM
I've done a lot of loading with AA9 and Longshot. AA9 wins, in my revolvers, by about 100fps. I often beat Accurate Arms' published fps, including 10mm, but rarely come close to Hodgdon numbers. I break 1300fps with a 180XTP and max load of AA9 in my 6.5" gun, but can't get 1220fps with Longshot.

Redneck with a 40
January 4, 2009, 05:55 PM
Alliant website, 10mm, Blue Dot, 180 gr bullet:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=180&shellid=30&bulletid=42

Alliant website, 10mm, Power Pistol, 165 gr bullet:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=165&shellid=30&bulletid=41

Accurate powder website, 10mm data:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Accurate%20v322%20web%20publication.pdf

:neener:

sqlbullet
January 4, 2009, 06:12 PM
I use a Lee 175 grain SWC with the tumble groove. With the lead I have, this throws a 172 grain bullet. These feed fine through my EAA Witness guns (I have two).

I favor blue dot, for it's good results across several calibers, but if I were looking for max performance, I would use AA#9 or 800X. I have also loaded Unique for 'light' loads.

I second starline as a great choice for brass. They are currently back-ordered 2-3 weeks on 10mm brass (as of my order on the 2nd). I have also purchased from Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" which comes in new starline brass.

All major reloading manuals have data for 10mm, as does handloads.com.

Bringsteen
January 4, 2009, 09:34 PM
Alliant website, 10mm, Blue Dot, 180 gr bullet:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...30&bulletid=42

Alliant website, 10mm, Power Pistol, 165 gr bullet:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...30&bulletid=41

Accurate powder website, 10mm data:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A...ublication.pdf


The issue is which powders generate the highest velocities within safe pressure levels, not whether there are published data for X velocity.

The Blue Dot load you attached achieves 1295 fps with 11 grains. Remember that the Blue Dot load of 10.4 grains hit 35,800 psi. If the 11 grain load isn't at 37,500 SAAMI max, it is just as close as Alliant can stand. With the Accurate #9 load of 14.5 grains, you'll hit 1290 fps at 32,600 psi. This gives you plenty of space to get your load well into the 1300's fps. Indeed, I have loaded this up to 15.3 grains, which achieved a median speed of 1353 fps. Using a PressureTrace II system, the strain gauge indicated a median pressure of 37,230 psi. If a Blue Dot load were to achieve 1353fps with a 180 grain bullet, it would certainly be in the 40,000-45,000 psi range, perhaps even more.


I am confused as to why you attached the Power Pistol load for 165 grain bullets. It shows 10 grains achieving a velocity of 1314 fps. But in your earlier post, you wrote this: Also, with 165 grain bullets, power pistol is it, 1360 fps. Did you attach this new load to show that you were wrong before?

Redneck with a 40
January 4, 2009, 10:05 PM
I was guestimating on what I saw on my previous visit to the alliant website, was too lazy to double check it while I was posting, but I did go back to the site, hence my most recent post.:p

ReloaderFred
January 5, 2009, 12:25 AM
You'll get that much variation across a chronograph anyway. I've seen lots of loads that had been individually weighed that got more than 46 fps variation.

While you guys are arguing over which powder is best in the 10mm, I and others have found that the most accurate loads were with Winchester 571, which is no longer made. Hodgdon's HS-7 is the same powder, though. Handloader Magazine did an in depth workup for the 10mm in Issue # 170. There is a plethora of data in that article.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Sommerled
January 5, 2009, 02:07 AM
Woahhhh,

I've loaded and fired well over 1500 rounds of 10mm with Blue dot powder in my Kimber as follows with no adverse pressure signs. I worked up to this load from 10 gr of powder and found it to be the most accurate for my gun.

180 gr Speer Gold dot HP
11.0 gr Blue Dot powder
Starline brass
CCI 300 primer
COL 1.250

Shoots like a champ. No signs of wear on the gun.

Bringsteen
January 5, 2009, 08:44 AM
While you guys are arguing over which powder is best in the 10mm, I and others have found that the most accurate loads were with Winchester 571, which is no longer made. Hodgdon's HS-7 is the same powder, though. Handloader Magazine did an in depth workup for the 10mm in Issue # 170. There is a plethora of data in that article.

Yes, I suppose once you build one good hot hunting load, the question of which one is fastest is largely academic.

Brian Pearce's 10mm article in the June 2008 edition of Handloader is excellent. Paladin Hammer, you may want to go to riflemagazine.com and order this back copy. It is an excellent introduction to reloading the 10mm.

Mello
January 5, 2009, 07:25 PM
Paladin Hammer since you asked for reloading data I have searched the web and found three sources for you:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Accurate%20v322%20web%20publication.pdf
Some reloading data from the above link for Accurate Arms powders.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Index.htm
Some reloading data from Alliant Powder, makers of Blue Dot.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
This link will lead you to reloading data from Hodgdon. It lists no loads for the 10mm with HS-7 powder.

I have a Dillon progressive reloader. Once I set up (have clean brass, box of bullets laid out, loaded primer tubes, full powder reservoir) and start cranking out loaded rounds, I can load 400 rounds or more in an hour.

redneck2
January 5, 2009, 08:01 PM
Problem is that 10mm auto is rare. Really rare.

It's not all that rare. I've got maybe 300 in my drawer in the loading room right now, plus about 1k empties and bullets. You can go directly to Starline and get all the brass you want, and most any .40 jacketed bullet should work.

Specifically any molds?

Molds are for casting lead bullets. If you mean dies, every mfg. has them for 40/10mm.

The biggest drawback to reloading the 10mm is chasing the brass all over the field. Other than that, I see no difference between it and most any other pistol.

FWIW...I use 180 Speer Gold Dots over Blue Dot. There may be something better, but since I got 8# of Blue Dot for $49 and the Speers for $5 a box, I'm trying to use them up.

tlen
January 5, 2009, 10:00 PM
Does anyone make moulds for gas check bullets in .40/10mm ? I haven't seen any nor any .40/10mm gas checks for that matter. Just like .357 & .44 magnum, shooting 10mm lead bullets with gas checks would be the way to go to fully utilize 10mm power at the reasonable cost.

ReloaderFred
January 5, 2009, 10:09 PM
The main players in mold manufacturing, Lee, Lyman, RCBS and Saeco, don't offer a gas check bullet in .40/10mm. I don't know where you would get .40 caliber gas checks if they did.

With that said, I'm sure any of the custom mold makers would cut a gas check mold for a customer. It might also be possible to make a gas check cutter of the proper diameter, plus the forming anvil, and make them from aluminum cans.

I haven't found it necessary to pursue gas checks in 10mm myself. My most accurate load is with a Saeco 205 grain bullet and Winchester 571/HS-7. I get no leading out of either my semi-auto pistols or my 10mm revolver with any of the cast bullets I shoot.

Hope this helps.

Fred

GooseGestapo
January 6, 2009, 06:20 PM
Ditto ReloaderFred.

However, when I was playing with the 10mm back in the early '90's, I found that AA#7 was the "go-too" powder.

Acc#9, wasn't quite as fast, neither BlueDot. HS7 was a favorite too, and LongShot wasn't made yet.

With LongShot, I've only used it in the .40S&W, and it never gave anywhere near the book velocities. Neither have some of the others. However, it does give superlative accuracy with the 9mm................

800X has given me the highest velocities in the .40S&W, and mild pressures to boot. FWIW.......... Never tried it in the 10mm.

Most often, you WON'T get "book numbers", so they are moot except for "academic excercises".........

Richard Harrison
January 12, 2009, 04:46 PM
This appears to be a very informed group of individuals on the subject of reloading 10mm. If I may, I’d like to ask your opinions on a specific recipe. I have a Delta Elite, A Witness Elite Match, and a S&W 1006. I have been experimenting with various loads and have had good experiences with 180g HP’s and 10.2g of Blue Dot (esp. Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot). In the Hornady 6th edition this is listed as being a brisk load, but not the maximum and a variety of bullets have worked well with 10.2g Blue Dot.

I recently obtianed some 180g Golden Sabers and they tend to be a little longer than the Hornady and Speer HP’s. It appears that once seated and crimped (light taper crimp) at 1.255-1.260”, there must be some compression of the power given the lack of space between the top of the power and the case mouth. I am wondering whether the Golden Sabre extra length is something to worry about if indeed the powder is being compressed…is there much chance of excessive pressure? I know from reading (Brian Pearce's article) that 10mm component changes from the specific recipies in the reloading manuals can result in large pressure increases, probably just for the reasons I am describing. Any thoughts or advice? I have 50 rounds so loaded but am hesitant since I've not worked up from lighter loads with the Golden Sabers.

Redneck with a 40
January 12, 2009, 05:10 PM
Richard, I have some 40 S&W rounds loaded with 9 grains of Blue Dot, 165 grain bullets, given the powder level in the case, this is definitely a compressed load. THEY SHOOT FREAKIN AWESOME!.:) Nothing wrong with compressing Blue Dot.

jfh
January 12, 2009, 07:36 PM
Richard Harrison: I suggest that you get some of your Golden Sabers and one of your Speer Gold Dots side-by-side and do some measurements to determine the seating depth of your Golden Sabers.

Then, consider what that change may be doing to your pressure.

Jim H.

Richard Harrison
January 15, 2009, 09:21 AM
Redneck and jfh, thank you for the replies. jfh: I live in Texas but am in MN this week, it's a mite chilly this morning. I can determine the seating depth by measuring, but how would I use that information to assess any potential danger from excessive pressure? The only way I know to determine pressure is with the fancy gauges or examining cases/primers after shooting. I know the seating depth is greater for the GS, could even calculate exactly how much but that doesn't tell me how compressed the Blue Dot is or what the pressures would be. Even if I backed off and worked up, the compression could change pressures in a non-linear fashion and cause unexpected spikes.

41 Mag
January 15, 2009, 08:31 PM
Richard, if I may,

When you get a chance to look the Golden Saber over, looking at the side from nose down towards the base, you will notice that they have a reduced area which ends about at the end of the Ogive, just ahead of the straight portion of the jacket. THey have a two diameter jacket on them which compared side by side with the same weight of another brand they will be a bit longer. However the reward portion of the bullet acts more like a driving band where the nose section is riding along on the tops of the lands, more or less.

This should not give you higher pressures, using the same laoding data for the same weight bullets as there is less function of drag created by the two deminsion jacket.

Hope this helps.

zeeew
January 15, 2009, 11:50 PM
I have been asking this same question on a few boards, and overall Accurate #7 and #9 seem to get mentioned most as "go-to" powders, with Blue Dot running right behind the AA powders. Some seem to use Blue Dot in a lot of different calibers and are quite pleased with it.
800x is by far the most common top velocity powder.
I dont have any actual experience yet loading the 10mm, I just got a chrono and some Power Pistol to try though, so slowly I will add what I find, FWIW.

steve4102
March 1, 2009, 10:49 AM
Hi guys, I'm new to the 10MM myself and appreciate all the great info. I have a question about AA #9 with 180gr bullets.

Bringsteen posted this data.
In the Complete Reloading Manual for 10mm/.40 S&W, the hottest Accurate #9 load for a 180 grain bullet is 14.5 grains. This yields 1290 fps at 32,600 psi.

Accurate's web data is quite a bit different. They list 13.5gr as Max at 1242fps with 34,100psi. Any idea as to why the big difference?

What about Ramshot Silhouette in the 10mm? Ramshot lists 8.4gr Max at 1210 fps with 34,400psi. I have a few jugs for my 9mm and 40 S&W and I thought it may be a good choice for my 10MM as well. What do you think, anyone try Silhouette?

Casefull
March 1, 2009, 11:31 AM
A glock 20 and eaa witness in 10mm.
I have found the heavier bullets work better(more of the powder burns in the barrel). I am getting great velocities with 800x and brass is fine. I wish I could get the witness to not throw the brass 25 feet. That is with the heavy spring. Is part of the problem the lighter weight of the slide? Could anything be done with the ejection rod?

GJgo
March 1, 2009, 12:37 PM
Steve- Accurate's 13.5gr on their website is, as I recall, the max charge for using magnum primers. 14.5 is for standard.

41 Mag
March 1, 2009, 06:17 PM
Steve,

I have never used or had access to the data which was quoted. I do however know that with the same type powder, and different bullets from different manufacturers you can easily get differing pressures. Other things, like what they used to test the loads in, being a pressure barrel or an actual firearm will also change data. Things like the atmospheric conditions, barometric pressures and temps will all add from slight big changes in data.

If you look at the data on the Accurate site you will see the following which is my point,

..........................Min....Vel...Max...Vel...Press...OAL
No.9 180 HDY XTP 12.2 1,093 13.5 1,242 34,100 1.250
No.9 180 RAN HP ..12.1 1,086 13.5 1,235 35,500 1.260

Both are the same weight, loads are pretty much identical, but the pressure is higher on the latter. As for the difference in primers the Accurate loads used WIN - WLP which is the standard large pistol primer.

Switching to a mag primer in this size case will get you up there in pressure quickly, and in my experience is not needed with the burn rate of these powders.

My personal 180gr load uses 13.5 of AA #9 which gives me 1350fps from a 7" barrel in my IAI Javelina. This is a top end load in my gun, and if you choose to head there work up slowly in small increments.

Ramshot powders that I have tried have been working fine for me, however I haven't loaded any of the pistol powders as of yet. I mostly have been using the rifle powders. I do read good things here and there about them.

Casefull,

I hear ya, and don't know what to tell you that would help. Mine has a SS slide that goes the full length of the 7" barrel, coupled with the heavy spring, and it still chunks them out there a ways. I resigned to using a king sized sheet when I shoot just to help corral them. I prop up the outer corners with dowels, and make it so it sort of funnels them into a pile on the close side. This however isn't always applicable depending on where I shoot. When I can't use it I try to have the wife or a friend stand back and spot for me, and if I am hunting I simply try to keep the older cases loaded up as I know up front they will be lost forever.

rattinox
April 16, 2009, 04:16 PM
I've been a proponent (rabid, raving nutcase) for the 10mm since I first read about it in G&A back in the late 80's. Alot of intelligent thought went into this round. With Fathers like Whit Collins and Jeff Cooper, how could it be less than excellent?

Give Vihta Vuori N105 a try sometime.

For the heavier bullets like 190 & 200 grain, this powder seems tailor-made for accuracy and max power at the lowest pressure. I don't like to push pressures in the Ten, but I do like to get the power of the original Norma loading (200-grain @ 1300fps) and N105 delivers. My Glock 20 loves nothing else.

ReloaderFred
April 16, 2009, 07:06 PM
The original Norma load for the 10mm Auto was a 200 grain bullet at 1,200 feet per second, not 1,300 fps.

I've owned and shot 10mm pistols for many, many years, and have loaded a truck load of ammunition for them. I'm very familiar with the original loading and have some in my stock of 10mm ammunition.

Hope this helps.

Fred

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