[BlindJustice]

I couldn't find any topic on this - I was on the S&W web site
yesterday and for 2009

S&W offers two new Nightguards* in chamberings for
cartridges not offered before in a Scandium frame:

S&W 310 NG
w/Full Moon Clips in 10mm AUto ( & .40 S&W )
S&W 357 NG
41 Magnum

* Nightguards - Overall matte black finish with Stainless
Steel cyl. & Scandium frame, Two Piece 2.5" Bbl. with
Pachmayr rubbber grip. THey have a front ramp with tritium
dot sight & Cylinder & Slide Extreme Duty fixed rear.
These are N-frame in the 29 oz. weight empty range.

Classic - Re-issue of past Carbon Steel, Blued models

Model 57 4" & 6" bbl. Len. with Bright Blue or Nickel finish
square butt, and bbl. has ejector shroud not full underlug.

Model 17 K-22 Target Masterpiece 6" Bbl. 40 oz.
Model 18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece 4" Bbl. 37.5 oz.

The 17 correctly got the bright blue finish & target hammer
and target trigger ( wide, serrated ) but I had an 18 as my first
handgun back in the 60s, and I recall a matte blue finish on it
This 18 gets the bright blue as well as a patrridge front - my old 18
had a plain ramp front sight like a model 15.
ALso the 17 and 18 go for $1,051 and $1,011,
respectively - which is sticker shock to me, and I own a 617
My 617 cost $629 two years ago when the msrp was
$ 717 or so , now for '09 a 617 msrp is $860 so the
bright (polished ) blue is $150+ more.... whistle

And a J-frame all new

Model 632 6 shot in .327 Fed Mag
this has a 3" Bbl. withS&W's power port.
24 oz. Staijnless Steel with Matte Black finish

Comments?

Randall

[Thaddeus Jones]

Counterfeits, not "classics". Safety Wesson should get a clue.

[MikePGS]

310.... Niceeeeeee

[armybass]

I only buy used Smiths without the stupid locks in them.

[hexidismal]

Same with me, I love S&Ws but I only own pre-locks. I won't buy a new one until they take leave the ILS out.

You know whats funny though, I bet some people will be confused that the new model S&W 357 NG is chambered in .41mag. :D

[Smith357]

If they got rid of the wart and the ugly cylinder stop, and used real forged case hardened parts rathe than that MIM crap and brought the price down to a reasonable level, then i might consider one. Until that time Meh.

[novaDAK]

I've checked out a few new S&W revolvers and while they still feel just as 'tight' as my 64-5 (1988) I can tell the quality of the materials is nowhere near as good as mine. Definately not worth the price and when the lock is factored in it's a done deal for me. I'll stick with new Rugers or used S&Ws (or rugers ;) )

[krs]

My 1975 Model 18 looks like bright blue, it's beatiful....http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/guns/mod18a.jpg

guess I ought to prove it's age a little, now that there's a repro.....http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/guns/mod18.jpg
see? No lock..:)

[Lone_Gunman]

Do the new re-issues have the internal lock?

[armybass]

Yes they do....shame.

[Lone_Gunman]

The lock totally destroys the collectibility of these new reissues in the minds of many people.

[High Desert Hunter]

The only S&W I own, a M25-13, has the lock, but I won't be looking to get rid of it, it is scary accurate, and carries like a dream, in a high ride pancake. Do I like the lock? NO, but since it has it, I guess I am stuck with it, and unless they eliminate lawsuits, I don't see them going anywhere, just wish they would do like Ruger and at least put them out of sight.

Dave

[mgregg85]

I love the idea of that 310ng revolver, but I do my best to avoid buying SD guns with locks.

[FoMoGo]

The lock comes out in less than 5 minutes. ;)


Jim

[.38 Special]

As I've posted elsewhere, I really tried to like the "classics" and even defended them on this website. I think the lock issue is overblown -- I don't like them but can live with them -- and while I'm also not a fan of MIM, that's not a deal-breaker either.

After owning a pair of them, the problems from my POV are two: the rifling, and the quality.

The rifling is simply not appropriate for cast bullets. This may not bother someone who only shoots jacketed bullets, but to my way of thinking, a .44 Special or "classic" .357 Magnum that doesn't work well with cast bullets is a nearly useless gun.

Beyond that is the fact that both of the guns I bought came from the factory with unacceptable problems. Nickle plating built up in chamber mouths to the point that extraction of fired brass is impossible, chamber mouths undersized by .005", headspace so inadequate that the gun will only cycle double action when the chambers are empty...

For a thousand dollars a copy? Nuh-uh.

[MikePGS]

I know some of the new 642's can be had without a lock, I can only hope they continue this trend.

[mr2guru]

That 10mm NG looks interesting.

[Lone_Gunman]

The lock comes out in less than 5 minutes.

Leaving a hole in the side of the frame?

[armybass]

Yup, in a MIM frame at that. As long as I can pickup used Smith's at a reasonable price..it is a no brainer for me.

[Oro]

If they got rid of the wart and the ugly cylinder stop,

Thanks Smith357 - I thought I was the only one po'd about the cylinder stop change (circa 1997 that was made). It is so ugly - just disfigures the entire look of that side of the gun. That's where I stop buying S&W revolvers - a few years ahead of the whole politically-charged lock issue.

Armybass - the frame on steel S&W revolvers are forged, not MIM. Some of the small parts are MIM manufactured - something done routinely and for a long time on even some of the priciest 1911s and other handguns, but somehow folks don't mind it so much there.

[moooose102]

excuse me for being ignorant. but what is the problem with the internal lock? do they fail? are the current breed of s&w revolvers junk, living on because of their namesake? it has been 15 years since i sold my 686. and i really havent looked much at revovlvers since. i am kind of missing the revolver now.

[krs]

Removing the lock parts does not change the hole for the key but it leaves a mostly unnoticable gap to the left of the hammer. The flag can be changed by taking off the little bub that makes the lock lock, leaving the inoperative flag to fill the gap.

[Thaddeus Jones]

Sure, you can remove the lock, or grind off the nub, but your revolver is still ugly! No cure for that. :barf:

[Old Fuff]

I'll give S&W credit for trying, but there are two obvious problems. The market "classic" revolvers are aimed at is the segment that most dislikes the lock and other "improvements." But for those that don't care, they will be a hard sell when for any likely street price (based on the manufacturers suggested retail price (MSRP), you can buy an example of the "real thing," in like-new condition for less in many cases.

[Colt Smith]

After you remove or alter the lock components to be inoperable, couldn't you disguise the hole by threading it and filling it with a short side plate screw?

[FoMoGo]

I'll give S&W credit for trying, but there are two obvious problems. The market "classic" revolvers are aimed at is the segment that most dislikes the lock and other "improvements." But for those that don't care, they will be a hard sell when for any likely street price (based on the manufacturers suggested retail price (MSRP), you can buy an example of the "real thing," in like-new condition for less in many cases.
From what I see at shows and in stores, S&W is selling their "classics" hand over fist.
MOST of the buying public doesnt know or care anything about the lock.
They know the quality reputation S&W has, they know they like the looks of the guns.
Look at the cars most people drive, you think they will be concerned about a key hole in the side of the frame?
I understand about old vs new, I have owned both... I ran across people who were willing to PAY for the older S&Ws, with that money I bought new what I couldnt find with the old... at a reasonable price.
Yes, I disable the locks when I get them. But then again, my old .44 mag would bind up and freeze when attempting rapid fire. So I am ahead of the game with my newer ones... they run like clockwork.
The anti lock naysayers are a bunch of angry people on the internet, for the most part.
John Q Public doesnt know or care about the locks and their potential issues.
They know they are buying a Smith. They will take it out and shoot it... and more than likely love it.
They will tell their friends... let THEM shoot it... and further S&Ws sales.


Jim

[krs]

Sure, you can remove the lock, or grind off the nub, but your revolver is still ugly! No cure for that

Tell me which one's you think are ugly, Thadeus..

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/guns/Bluedsmiths1.jpg

[krs]

After you remove or alter the lock components to be inoperable, couldn't you disguise the hole by threading it and filling it with a short side plate screw?

colt Smith,

I've been waiting for some young enterprising machinist with an EDM machine to come up with blued, stainless, and black matte plugs that lock into the keyhole, or something like that.

Yes, I've no doubt that the entire lockset could be removed, the hole tapped, and a flat plug be made to disapear the hole.

On a blued gun there'd be finish issues to deal with but I've been eyeballing my 629 for an attempt. The lock's been out since the gun was new and I'm just now buying another .44 so maybe one day soon I'll risk a go at it.

[Colt Smith]

krs,

Cool! Don't forget to post pics when you get that done.

[Old Fuff]

I believe that such a system has been made, and is illustrated in a thread here: www.smith-wessonforum.com

[Old Fuff]

From what I see at shows and in stores, S&W is selling their "classics" hand over fist.

Maybe, or possibly the snubbies. But CDNN Sports (www.cdnnsports.com) was clearing them out at discounted prices a while back. :uhoh:

[krs]

Their 'classic' Model 40, the grip safety model, does not have the lock,BTW.


This link is to the thread that I believe Old Fuff meant:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/580103904/m/4001060633

The guy did a very nice job although I'd like to see the plug be less visible.

[Old Fuff]

Yup, that's the one. Nice of you to do what I should have and post the link.

I'd like to see the plug be less visible.

If the revolver being modified was one made of stainless steel or unfinished amuminum, one could make the plug and press fit it the hole. Then sand it flat to the frame. Of course this would require some sort of refinishing, such as bead-blasting or a high polish. A carbon-steel blued gun would probably need to be reblued. But if money is no object ....

Also some of the older style thumbpieces might cover the plug better.

Someone might ask, "Why doesn't someone make and sell this?" I think the answer is that they couldn't get any affordable liability insurance.

[Hawk]

One of the larger shops around here seems to be moving the classics at a steady clip - mostly the "J" frame models and blue 29s. For reasons which remain unclear, nice original 29s are rare as hen's teeth around these parts. The "classic" may well be the local path of least resistance if one wants a blue .44 Mag S&W and doesn't enjoy buying from auction sites.

The snubbies include the case colored frame variety which, I gather, is a "recreation" of something that never existed. Nevertheless, they don't seem to stick around a long time.

With exceptions, it seemed most of what CDNN was closing out was the model 21. It may be blasphemous to say but I can understand that - the model 21, particularly with colored frame and magna stocks looks misshapen to me in a manner quite unlike any other S&W I can think of. The proportions just seem "off". I don't keep old catalogs but I'd bet a donut the Thunder Ranch 21 was there and was thereafter followed by a couple other versions of 21 - I suspect the 21 will sink without a ripple at which point we'll all clamor for its return. I believe CDNN had nickle 29s as well at one point - they do that just to confuse me.

[FoMoGo]

I dislike the roundbutt on the M21s...
Thats why mine has a squarebutt conversion hogue monogrip... :D


Jim

[Old Fuff]

They recently advertised some of the others by e-mail, but I didn't pay attention to what models. I would expect that dealers picked them up at the lowered close-out prices. There can't be a whole lot of them because they were all limited runs.

Just for fun you might follow this and see what happens.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=119891539

[FoMoGo]

Round butt and plate riveted to it...:barf:


Jim

[Old Fuff]

What it is supposed to be is a modern reproduction of a revolver used by Ed. McGivern during the 1930's to set some speed shooting records. His .38 Military & Police Target Model had a square butt, but for reasons I don't understand (ignorence perhaps?) they didn't use stocks to recreate the square butt, which would not have been difficult.

But anyway, I posted the link so that anyone that might be interested could see if any bids were posted, and if so for how much.

For $800 or less I suspect you could buy an original revolver that was made around the same time, and was truly identical to the one McGivern had.

My point in all of this is, why buy a reproduction for more money then an original revolver it was based on would cost?

[Hawk]

Just for fun you might follow this and see what happens.

That's an interesting conglomeration. My eyes might be giving out on me but it looks like screw #5 is there but #4 has gone missing. Is the monogrip historically accurate for a McGivern? There's probably a gold bead on the front sight but I can't make it out on the pics.

Why am I asking about historical accuracy of a monogrip when the frame is case colored?

Edited to add: Fuff types faster than I do - question on grip already answered.

[Hawk]

My point in all of this is, why buy a reproduction for more money then an original revolver it was based on would cost?

I wonder if there aren't a few narrowly-focused cases where the "classics" are routinely sold for less than the originals? The current production blued 29 crops up in the 800s and that's close to what I think a good used one would fetch - if you could find one.

And then there's the M40 lemon squeezer in the 600s.

During my vigil for a post -2E, pre-lock blued 29 I stated a preference for the lockless article and was rather surprised to note that both staff and customers were looking at me quizzically - not like I'd said anything offensive, more like I'd said something merely incomprehensible. It was the sort of look dealer staff give people declaring a preference for scrimshawed pink mother of pearl stocks or having just landed from Mars.

I was forced to conclude that there's a profound difference between internet gun boards and at least one real-life gun store. People at the store just flat don't care about the lock. (Captain Obvious is whispering in my ear that the folks that find the current product repugnant simply wouldn't be in the store in the first place, but the joint was far from empty).

In this strange netherworld on Singleton in Dallas, the current 29 can look pretty good as it's going to be compared not to a 90% "dash-3" but an ANIB "dash-3" that's going for a minimum of 1,200.00. A "lock agnostic" therefor sees two products at 100% with box and papers and the new one is 400.00 cheaper. It's likely an invalid comparison here but out there ... in that other place ... it can seem perfectly logical. Ditto the lemon squeezer - and the lemon squeezer doesn't even have the lock.

[AJD]

If the "Classic" line wasn't selling well then I doubt S&W would keep introducing more and more models each year.

Most people don't care about the lock unless they are a "traditionalist" S&W fan. Go to a gunstore and ask a random person looking at Smith & Wesson revolvers in the case what he thinks about the following things: "Pinned barrels?" "Recessed cylinders?" "MIM parts?" "Internal lock?" He won't have a clue what your talking about and even after you explained in detail he still probably won't care.

As hard as it is for some people to believe things that seem like heresy to die hard gun traditionalists don't mean jack squat to a lot of other people.

"What's that? What do you mean "four clicks" when I pull the hammer back? Why the hell would I care about that? Transfer bar? Why wouldn't I want that? You mean I can only carry 5 rounds in a 6 shot gun? What?"

[Old Fuff]

I certainly wouldn't want the word to go around that older guns might possibly be better then current ones, especially if some specific reasons cropped up. If what we have here became common knowledge the prices of older guns would skyrocket like a tricked-out AR-15. Why I have been stealing these old "junk" guns for so long that I wouldn't know how to go about buying them for a fair price. :eek:

All I was trying to do was explain to Hawk that there was a difference. Now I won't live long enough to get over the regret... :D

Oh, and AJD is right. Most buyers don't have a clue, and I'd prefer it stayed that way...

[hinton03]

Some guys would whine about a knob job. The locks are here to stay.....get over it. I prefer them without the lock also but that is the world we live in.

Revolver lovers should be happy that an American company producing revolvers is still in business.