Selling guns to the Amish


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Cover Dog
January 4, 2009, 07:43 PM
At our N.E. Ohio gun club today a interesting discussion came up about a member who sold a gun to an Amish man. The Amish told him that they (the Amish) can only buy used guns because they do not have photo I.D.'s. This was told to be true by another member who works for a FFL gun shop.

My question to the member who sold the gun was I thought you had to see a photo I.D. to make sure the buyer was a resident of our state to be able to sell FTF. If you need a photo I.D. to purchase at a FFL licensed dealer, and the Amish don't have one, how can they buy used from a private party if the same requirement is you must see a photo I.D.?

So, is a sale to an Amish person illegal if no photo I.D. is seen?

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Duke of Doubt
January 4, 2009, 07:45 PM
Private sales in my state do not require ID of any kind. But all gun sales, new and used, from an FFL require an ID, unless it is an antique.

On the other hand, we don't have any Amish that I know of.

JImbothefiveth
January 4, 2009, 07:49 PM
Are the Amish allowed by their own rules to have guns?

If not, this could be a hoax by someone who isn't supposed to have a gun.

sherman123
January 4, 2009, 07:53 PM
Thats what I thought I always heard the Amish were against guns(also have heard they were pacifists but what do i Know) I'm no expert but I believe they are against arming themselves.

takhtakaal
January 4, 2009, 07:56 PM
Yes, the Amish have firearms. They hunt, they get rid of varmints, and they slaughter animals raised for consumption on their farms, just like many other farmers. I've seen boatloads of Amish and Mennonites shopping for rifles and ammo at the Cabela's location north of here.

Treo
January 4, 2009, 08:00 PM
Yes Amish are allowed guns by doctrine for hunting purposes.

I'm not aware of any Amish communities in Co. There are some Mennonite communities in the San Luis Valley. That said I'd sell FTF to an Amish person no questions asked. I'd sell 'em ammo too

I would think the horse & buggy in your drive would be a dead give away :D

Lone_Gunman
January 4, 2009, 08:00 PM
Some Amish have guns, some don't. Kind of like Jews and pork, or Baptists and alcohol.

MikePGS
January 4, 2009, 08:08 PM
I've seen boatloads of Amish and Mennonites shopping for rifles and ammo at the Cabela's location north of here.
Oh my god that would be a sweet picture... too bad taking a photo of it would be against their religion :(

Geno
January 4, 2009, 08:17 PM
Mike:

We had a rather large Amish population near my home town. Oh they had guns alright! :D I had the opportunity to stop and talk with a few of the families when I was in college. They were really interesting folks, and very welcoming.

Wow, what great memories!!

Doc2005

redneck2
January 4, 2009, 08:22 PM
Oh my god that would be a sweet picture... too bad taking a photo of it would be against their religion

Amish are big time hunters. As a word of caution, if you let any hunt on your land, many times they think it's a free for all and all of a sudden there are dozens.

There are LOTS of Amish in this area. A family lives across the road from our farm. They came over to help with our barn that had been partially blown down by a tornado. Rode their bicycles. One of the daughters wearing the full long dress, headgear, etc. pulls out a digital camera and starts taking pictures.

Don't try to make any type of sense of their laws.

Other examples... They can't own a car, but they can ride in one if someone else drives. They can't hook to the electric company, but they can have generators. Can't have a phone in the house, but they can use someone else's phone or a pay phone.

They have Elders that rule on how much of a modern thing is too much. Varies by each sect.

Funniest thing I ever saw was a horse and buggy pulling an outboard powered fishing boat on a trailer. I starting laughing so hard I had to pull off the road. Wish I would have had a camera.

WardenWolf
January 4, 2009, 09:22 PM
Whether they have a photo ID or not also depends on the state and the sect. Some states require it, and some sects allow it. That's the type of thing they're going to increasingly allow, you can be sure, as not having a photo ID makes things so much more difficult and at the same time is something so trivial. You've also noticed that Amish have been experiencing technology creep, as newer technology slowly starts to creep in. As the old Elders die and the next generation takes their place, the new leaders are thinking, "It sure would be nice if had that. Would have made life so much easier, and it's so trivial."

Amish need guns just like farmers need them anywhere else. To shoot varmints and predators, and to slaughter sick or injured animals or just the animals they plan to eat. They're living proof that even if you're a pacifist, you still need guns.

NavyLCDR
January 4, 2009, 09:24 PM
Most state laws and Federal law only requires the seller to not have knowledge of or reasonable belief of ineligibility of the buyer. Most state laws and the Federal law does not require proving of such facts by the buyer in a private transaction, otherwise you, as a private seller, would also have to do the NICS check on a buyer.

foghornl
January 5, 2009, 07:56 AM
Ohio does have a large "Amish Community" (for lack of a better term).

Last time I got to deer hunt, there were quite a few Amish men 'checking in' deer at the Game-N-Fish Wildlife station.

exflatlander
January 5, 2009, 08:13 AM
There are major differences between Amish and Mennonite (drive cars, shop in supermarkets). When I lived in Western PA I was suprised to see women in full dress walking through Wegmans.

I have a friend that built a house in Western PA and hired some Amish workers. They didn't own and power tools but had no problem using his circular saw and miter-box while they were there.

tinygnat219
January 5, 2009, 08:28 AM
They might not have driver's licenses, but many DMV's in states also offer a basic ID card. It's still a state issued ID card, but is used for folks who either cannot have a driver's license, or have been denied one, but still need a form of government issued ID.

Guns and more
January 5, 2009, 09:42 AM
Probably one of those Amish gang bangers.

Cover Dog
January 5, 2009, 09:43 AM
tinygnat219...when a photo I.D. is required and the Amish "by their religion" are not allowed to have their picture taken, a State issued I.D. would do them no good since it would require them to sit for a photo session.

So back to my original question....If you need a photo I.D. to purchase at a FFL licensed dealer, and the Amish don't have one, how can they buy used in Ohio from a private party if the same requirement is you must see a photo I.D.?

Cannonball888
January 5, 2009, 09:49 AM
Probably one of those Amish gang bangers.
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/500/7amish.jpg

NavyLCDR
January 5, 2009, 12:13 PM
So back to my original question....If you need a photo I.D. to purchase at a FFL licensed dealer, and the Amish don't have one, how can they buy used in Ohio from a private party if the same requirement is you must see a photo I.D.?

There is no requirement to see a photo ID for a private sale in Ohio.

El Hombre
January 5, 2009, 12:21 PM
"Probably one of those Amish gang bangers. "





What goes "Clop Clop Bang Clop Clop Clop.....?







Amish drive buy shooting! :neener:

Cover Dog
January 5, 2009, 12:37 PM
NavyLT...how can you verify where a person lives if you don't see a photo I.D. As a resident of Ohio I can only sell to others within the state without going thru a FFL. Without a photo I.D. I don't know where the person is from.

ultradoc
January 5, 2009, 12:44 PM
Yes. The Amish are big time hunters. I lived in Holmes County [Ohio] for years and they are all over. I think one of the biggest populations.

K3
January 5, 2009, 12:46 PM
NavyLT...how can you verify where a person lives if you don't see a photo I.D. As a resident of Ohio I can only sell to others within the state without going thru a FFL. Without a photo I.D. I don't know where the person is from.

Would you ask for your friend's ID? You know where he lives, I assume. What about your brother?

If you know the Amish, it would stand to reason you knew where they lived in one or two instances, doncha think?

Your statement sounds like you can't possibly know where anyone lives without checking ID.

Frog48
January 5, 2009, 12:47 PM
NavyLT...how can you verify where a person lives if you don't see a photo I.D. As a resident of Ohio I can only sell to others within the state without going thru a FFL. Without a photo I.D. I don't know where the person is from.

What he's saying is that, under state law, the seller is under no obligation to verify anything, so establishing the buyer's state of residence is irrelevant.

ultradoc
January 5, 2009, 12:52 PM
K3. Some of the more popular Amish names are Miller,Yoder,Hersgberger to name a few. It's kinda like Smith. There are a ton of those names. So if they [Amish] say ....Miller that could be any of hundreds. FYI

WardenWolf
January 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
NavyLT...how can you verify where a person lives if you don't see a photo I.D. As a resident of Ohio I can only sell to others within the state without going thru a FFL. Without a photo I.D. I don't know where the person is from.

Well, with only a horse and buggy you can bet they didn't come very far. What's a quick zip down the Interstate for most people is a several-day trip for them.

Regarding the Amish, the Feds and many local governments are also willing to ignore many "requirements" to accomodate them. Most Amish don't have social security numbers, but they don't draw from it either. Generally the view is that they don't bother anyone, and don't cause trouble, so leave them alone. Of course, you should try to verify their identity as best as possible, but unless you're already in trouble they're not going to come haul your butt to jail for going, "He dresses like an Amish, talks like an Amish, has a horse and buggy like an Amish. . .I'm pretty sure he's legit", and selling it to him.

K3
January 5, 2009, 12:59 PM
K3. Some of the more popular Amish names are Miller,Yoder,Hersgberger to name a few. It's kinda like Smith. There are a ton of those names. So if they [Amish] say ....Miller that could be any of hundreds. FYI

Still, if it's someone you know, it doesn't really matter?

And most state laws don't require verification in the strictest legal sense of the word. If a guy tells me he's from my state, and I have no reason to doubt him, I can sell it.

What if you do an ftf and the other fella has a prettty good fake ID? You VERIFIED, right? We can't all be expected to be experts on valid IDs, and you did make a reasonable effort?

Ugh. It'd be nice just to be able to sell a rifle I didn't want anymore to anybody I liked and pocket the cash, no questions asked. It'd be nice to just go to the store and plop down cash and get what I want without leaving a kidney. That system seemed to work fine for quite a while from what people tell me. People that are older than me, as I was born after GCA 68.

ArmedBear
January 5, 2009, 01:07 PM
Well, with only a horse and buggy you can bet they didn't come very far

LOL

Good point.

A simple run to the liquor store could take them all day! Oh wait...

Art Eatman
January 5, 2009, 01:25 PM
Some of legal, a lot of silly. Enuf.

That folks are different in beliefs and lifestyle doesn't justify some of the comments made here.

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