South Africa


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BBQLS1
January 5, 2009, 09:44 PM
What are the gun laws like there?

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CPerdue
January 5, 2009, 11:09 PM
Well, I really know nothing but back about 1998-9 there was a picture of a 'soccer mom' sitting on a hillside watching her kids play. She had an AK propped up between her knees. I really wish I could find the picture again (it was in The Ecconomist I believe), because she looked so utterly ordinary. White shoes, pink shorts, tank top, big hair, toddler standing beside her with hand on her shoulder.

Planning a trip? Have fun.

4Freedom
January 5, 2009, 11:26 PM
Each adult citizen can own a total of 2 guns. The guns laws after the Afrikaneers lost power of government have become totalatarian at the least. I am sure these laws are not heavily enforced ,since illegal guns are not hard to find in Africa. I am sure most South Africans themselves have well over 2 guns per person, especially seeing they may need it, looking at it is one of the most dangerous places in the world. Johannesburg has the highest murder rate of any city in the world.

BBQLS1
January 6, 2009, 10:20 AM
Just curious. I saw a post from someone there.

LegalAlien
January 6, 2009, 08:38 PM
Ex South African with all my family still back in that country. I was on vacation there in September last year.
My brother is a hunter and firearm owner. As a hunter you are allowed to own a maximum of 4 bolt rifles.
You are allowed one handgun, if you can prove that your line of work requires such a level of self protection. Guns are then registered and the owner is issued a 'license' to own the gun. Must produce the license every time you purchase ammo. I think handgun licenses needs to be renewed and handgun presented at local LE office for inspection on regular basis.
South Africa introduce a "Gun Free South Africa" legislation in 2000 and since then armed crime (full auto AK) by gangs are rampant.
So much for a gun free South Africa.

joshk-k
January 6, 2009, 08:46 PM
I went to University in Johannesburg in 2006 and one of my best friend's dad had a handful of hunting rifles: bolt action .22LR, bolt action .30-06, some lever action, and I think one more. He alluded to others in the eaves.

Serious mounts on his walls, including a warthog head that was bigger than most cattle heads I've ever seen.

Crime's real, for sure, but not as bad as the media makes it out to be. Which I think is true in most places.

Josh

Duke of Doubt
January 6, 2009, 09:03 PM
Oligarchical collectivism in five easy steps:

Step 1: Disarm populace.

Step 2: Incite criminal gangs to terrorize populace.

Step 3: Invoke sweeping police powers to fight criminal gangs.

Step 4: Execute all criminals.

Step 5: Do whatever the hell you want; nobody can stop you.

Worked for Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Mandela and other wretched refuse.

withdrawn34
January 6, 2009, 09:46 PM
The question is, though, are you allowed to use any of those firearms against a criminal if they are about to do something very bad?

razorback2003
January 6, 2009, 11:58 PM
I can't wait until Obama tries to bring his big dream and overcome everything and screw up America like South Africa went down the toilet.

Rampant crime, lawlessness, corrupt leaders, strict gun laws....South Africa and Chicago have a lot in common. I expect the White House the next four years to be as 'well run' as Obama's last hometown Chicago.

joshk-k
January 7, 2009, 09:37 AM
I don't think it's fair or historically accurate to put Mandela into a group with Lenin, Hitler, and Mao or to call him wretched refuse.

Duke of Doubt
January 7, 2009, 10:15 AM
I do, Josh.

Mandela's troops, on his orders, placed rubber tires around the necks of "opposition" members (meaning anyone who refused to swear personal allegiance to him and to his "African National Congress"), poured petrol (read: "gasoline") over their heads, and set them alight in a public location to inspire the others to passivity.

He systematically exterminated the Inkatha Freedom Party, made up of Zulus and others who resisted Mandela's communist agenda.

His wife Winnie's "soccer team" was responsible for at least several thousand political assassinations, including that of an eight year old child.

Most folks in America have no idea why Mandela was imprisoned in the first place -- he blew up a police station, killing several innocent persons.

Then there were his ties to Libyan intelligence and the Lockerbie bombing.

Yeah, he's in the same pile of wretched refuse as Lenin, Hitler and Mao. Deserving of a good grave piss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

BBQLS1
January 7, 2009, 02:05 PM
Thanks for the input guys. Keep it coming if there is more.

bonza
January 7, 2009, 02:18 PM
I'm with Duke of Doubt on the Mandelas'. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Winnie was even more ruthless than Nelson.

nutter
January 7, 2009, 02:25 PM
THR member Koos Custodiet (http://thehighroad.org/member.php?u=45454) is a gun owner from South Africa. Short of official information, I imagine shooting him a PM would be very informative.

Koos Custodiet
January 7, 2009, 02:26 PM
Each adult citizen can own a total of 2 guns. The guns laws after the Afrikaneers lost power of government have become totalatarian at the least. I am sure these laws are not heavily enforced ,since illegal guns are not hard to find in Africa. I am sure most South Africans themselves have well over 2 guns per person, especially seeing they may need it, looking at it is one of the most dangerous places in the world. Johannesburg has the highest murder rate of any city in the world.

Dude. Please post facts.

Under the new law, one can get licences for four guns, being two long and two short, or shotgun, two rifle, one handgun -- if you're not "dedicated".

To become "dedicated" you need to be a member of a sporting, hunting or collectors organisation. Then, there's no limit (in the law, in practice, they start getting edgy around 75 or so, it seems).

No, Johannesburg doesn't have the highest murder rate in the world. 'smatter of fact, last time I looked Cape Town lead JHB. I *think* CT is at#2 worldwide. Not sure.

And that soccer mum didn't have an AK, 'cos the white guys had R1 (FN) and R4s, and the black guys had AKs, with the result that only collectors in SA have AKs (OK, and the bad guys, but that's not the point). I would believe someone having an R5 (semi only R4) 10+ years ago, for guarding kids. But that was a different law.

Look at www.gunownerssa.org.

Edit : Thanks, nutter :-)

And Nelson and Winnie Mandela operated independently from pretty much when he went to jail 'till now. He learned a lot in jail, Winnie went on doing her own thing. I think one can honestly say that Madiba was reformed by the penal system.

Now Robert McBride, head of police up north, he's a bad one.

Another edit : the guys over on levergunscommunity.com send an expedition out here every year. Hunting's good.

roscoe
January 7, 2009, 03:17 PM
Good to get some real info - I love SA, and almost moved there last year. Thanks! By the way, what is the turnaround for the permit to have 4 guns? I heard that was where the trouble was - failure to issue what should be issued as a matter of course.

Also, I understand that legal possession of a handgun amounts to a right to carry - can you confirm this?

Koos Custodiet
January 8, 2009, 12:50 AM
Turnaround is variable.

The "new" act forces everyone to re-register. Only about 20% of everyone has in fact bothered. But even that overloaded the system.

Renewals took around 18 months in the first year, seems they're now down to 12 months.

New licences take about the same amount of time, depending on whether you already have competency (you first have to take a course and go through a police clearance to be declared "competent", something which also has to be renewed every 10 (I think) years). This slowed the renewals down, in theory, if you already have competency, the application should be a bit faster).

All applications have to be motivated. You have to prove that you have a legitimate need for the firearm. This is especially a problem with self-defence guns (you're allowed one gun for self defence) -- you have to prove that your life is more in danger than someone else's, and that you can only be safe if you have a gun.

Yes, any firearm can be used for any legal purpose. That's one of the few sane points in the new law. Means you can carry (concealed, holster mandatory) your sporting guns too. Although the lawyers recommend you don't do this, it could get sticky in court.

But before you rush here, our hunting is *very* different from yours :-)

Ask on www.gunownerssa.org, there are more of us there :-)

SniperStraz
January 8, 2009, 01:07 AM
This is not legal advise, but the way I understand it, any cop that stops you can be bought off fairly easily with a small bribe as can most judges.
In any case SA is a dangerous place to say the least and its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Good luck, stay safe.

Koos Custodiet
January 8, 2009, 11:43 AM
Hey, Sniper, I think you're confusing us with some other African country hey. Yes, we have bad cops. But IMO the good outnumber the bad. And our justice system works, I think you'll see yourself up the wrong side if you tried bribing a judge, more often than not.

Yes, if you have *connections*, nothing can touch you. It's not a money thing.

And then there's the risk reward curve. Even if you have a 90% chance of getting away with something, that 10% that lands you up in jail *is* a death sentence for most.

BBQLS1
January 8, 2009, 04:37 PM
Thanks for the info!

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