[marvl]

This should be interesting... surviving relatives are suing the city for $20M, its annual budget is only $34M. The plaintif's attorney stated "Every little town and burg now believes that they need a paramilitary assault team." I agree. Why does a town of 78,000 need a SWAT team? These no-knock warrants are also way overused.

Story at http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/25/no.knock.searches.ap/index.html

[Pilgrim]

Police, dressed in unmarked black clothes and masks, made a small hole in the window and tossed in the flash-bang device, which sets off a blinding flash and loud noise. At about the same time, according to their lawyer, they shouted "Police!," an assertion plaintiffs plan to challenge.

Should be interesting if the defense sets off a flash-bang device in the court, shouts "Free lunch," and then asks the jury what was said.

Pilgrim

[cracked butt]

A detective in my home town ordered a similar warrant on a house where a violent drug dealer lived- the loacal swat team charged through the front door of the house, threw a woman on the floor- held her face down with a gun to the back of her head, tackled her husband, cuffed him and dragged him out of the house. The raid went quick without anyone getting injured except for the little detail that they raided the wrong house, and the woman was 6 months pregnant.:fire:


I'm wondering what would happen if such an action was taken on the wrong house, at night, and the homeowner happened to have a loaded sks handy
:what:

[keederdag]

He'd die shoot'in and the surviving SWAT members would get a few day's off. Then about 2,000 Cops wear'in black arm bands would be a the SWAT officers funeral, in honnor of their fallin comrads, who died protecting us all from the savages waiting to rape pillage and plunder. Then the Mayor would pledge to hire 4,000 more cops and arm them all with G.I. surplus M-16's so "Next time they will not be outgunned". And there would be a Tax increse to give these officers a pay raise, as they are the thin blue line that protects all us sheep.:confused:

[Standing Wolf]

Well, yeah, but we're not a police state. Right? I mean, not really, right? Right?

[TheeBadOne]

Advancing the arguement or just Ad Hominem attacks? :confused:

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

I don't see any ad hominems - just a lot of sarcasm.

[Lone_Gunman]

Why isn't this being tried as a criminal case, eg, manslaughter or murder?

[Coronach]

This should be interesting... surviving relatives are suing the city for $20M, its annual budget is only $34M. The plaintif's attorney stated "Every little town and burg now believes that they need a paramilitary assault team." I agree. Why does a town of 78,000 need a SWAT team? These no-knock warrants are also way overused.Hmmm. Three seperate questions here:

1. The validity/wisdom of no-knocks
2. The execution of this no-knock
3. The necessity of SWAT teams.

As to the first 2, thats a major can-o-worms. I have gotten into it before, and probably will again. But lets address the 3rd.

I went to college in a sleepy little burb where a man walked into a K-mart, asked to see a shotgun, inserted a round from his pocket and took the whole store hostage.

They waited about 4 hours for the State Police "rapid" response force to show up.

And before anyone starts screeching the old saw about armed populaces and self defense and sheep baaa baaa baaa, this was rural Pennsylvania, where CCW is common, and everybody and their grandma owns a gun, and shoots it often. All of these red-state independent types were raising a holy ruckus about why the local PD didn't have a plan and a team ready for such an eventuality.

And heck yeah if they didn't have a point.

If you have a PD, you should have a trained tactical team. Otherwise, why are you there?

Now...how you use it when there's not a hostage situation going on is a whole other matter.

Mike

[Sodbuster]

Now...how you use it when there's not a hostage situation going on is a whole other matter.
I believe how they use it, Mike, leads us back to your number 1 and number 2.

[Coronach]

Oh, agreed.

I'm just saying that the original question of "why does a town of 78k need a swat team?" was, IMO, painfully naive. Bad things happen, everywhere.

Mike

[Sodbuster]

Then we agree to agree. :) BTW The nearest SWAT to me is in Bozeman MT, a town of 30,000, where bad things do happen.

[marvl]

Oh, agreed.

I'm just saying that the original question of "why does a town of 78k need a swat team?" was, IMO, painfully naive. Bad things happen, everywhere.

Mike


Painfully naive? What, do you write romance novels or something?

Bad things happen in towns of 500 or less. Should a 3-man PD have a SWAT team?

[Orthonym]

that wasn't ad hominem, it was ad vigilem. Snork!

[Augustwest]

Bad things happen, everywhere.

True. And they will continue to whether every town has a paramilitary unit or not.

IMO, it's dangerous to put that much power in the hands of every PD. And it's a significant burden on taxpayers.

[El Tejon]

Media blurb is not telling us everything. HAD to be a reason to go in, instead of pulling him over for speeding, right?:confused:

[F4GIB]

Coronach says "They waited about 4 hours for the State Police "rapid" response force to show up."

And ... during this time period nothing happened. Exactly what would have happened if they had a local SWAT team. The town police force set up a parimeter, someone tried to or did initiate communication, and everyone waited out the BG. Exactly what would happen with a local SWAT team except that there were no minimally trained ninjas waiting in their armored car for the order to go to war on the populace.

Since local teams are so expensive to properly train and equip, if there is one it will be used to escalate every incident and increase the potential danger to civilians. As you upscale the weaponry, you upscale the cost of a FU. Without flash-bangs, no 74 year-old will have his heart attack set off, without pumped-up ninjas the liklihood of a compliant, innocent man being shot in the face is reduced, and so on.

[0007]

Being somewhat on the southside of 50, I'm trying to remember what all these departments did before they had swat teams.

[Baba Louie]

Andy had Deputy Barney Fife with his One bullet for those important tactical moments that Mayberry's criminal element presented.

Every town/county LE dept. needs a plan and a few good men and women (are there any women in SWAT teams?) who train and know how to act/react together and can shoot better than the average LEO for particular matters involving overwhelming show of force. (maybe)

I thought that most depts had long guns in cars and wore some type of armour.

It'll be interesting to see the results of an impartial (as if) jury based on whatever evidence is allowed to be presented.

The black/OD BDU's and facemasks are still waaaaay too unsettling for my tastes but thats a personal thing and I don't have to roll around on the floor in druggies pads, so its an easy thing for me to say.

I just keep thinking about the fiasco in Texas last year where the homeowner ended up unhurt through a fusilade of bullets yet charged with the homicide of one team member, later to find that it was an Oops of gigantic proportions.

Life is tough enough. Sometimes even Cops make mistakes.

Adios

[Keith]

The defense said it was found wrapped in a cloth where he kept it, with all 10 bullets still inside. Leeson said one bullet was missing.

It sounds like they're arguing that since the mag held ten rounds, there MUST have been an eleventh bullet in the chamber... and it's "missing". Sounds pretty fishy to me - where's the spent case?

The problem with SWAT teams is that once somebody gets the funding for one, they then feel the need to justify that expense by using them - even in a doubtful case like this. And no doubt, it's the most aggressive cops who volunteer and they get trained for the absolute worst case situations.

Then, when they get called in on a standard dope bust like this one, they over-react and start shooting. Cops are just people. If you train somebody for armageddon, they're react as if it is, even when it isn't...

Keith

[TheeBadOne]

I'm just saying that the original question of "why does a town of 78k need a swat team?" was, IMO, painfully naive. Bad things happen, everywhere.
That's it all wrapped up in a nut shell. Also, not all that many places have a SWAT team. Usually the largest County or the State has a team and departments request mutual aid from them if needed. :cool:

[Heat Miser]

Why not wait for him to go to the store? About 10 minutes of surveillence and intelligence gathering would prevent this. If he is a known violent resister, then arrest him in his driveway instead of a public place. I have yet to ever hear a good argument for blasting the door in, unless the guy is a hermit. Ok that's not quite true, but the risk is almost never better than the reward. my $.02

[keederdag]

Hammer mentality. when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything look's like a nail. UNDERSTAND..this is a common misconception, SWAT, SAU, police black ninja, teams are not there to protect us "so called civilians". They are there to protect Police officers PERIOD. When they are called in, it is assumed there is a high potential for a violent situation to occur. They go in "ready to Rock". It's supprising to note how few of these things dont go very wrong. Beleive it or not, This is one area I happen to be very well informed on (understatement) and no, not from the BG side. The potential for excessive force is in the nature of the beast here. The training has absolutly nothing to do with LE. It is about shooting people; and it's that simple. My earlier "sarcasm" Happen's frequently, watch the new's. If it isn't on, it's only because the Media, doesn't report it. That's a whole nother story. Ad-homenim... Try reality!:)

[Intune]

Keith nailed it. If you don't use it, you lose it. So what do they do... Kinda like a corporate expense account but a lot more dangerous.:uhoh: