Urban areas.


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JImbothefiveth
January 7, 2009, 04:50 PM
Well, someone pointed out in another thread it will be hard to convince people in urban areas that rifles should be allowed. So, what arguments could you use?

Mods, this might be better in discussion and planning, I'm not sure.

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nrgetik
January 7, 2009, 05:18 PM
For clarification, it was not just rifles, that was merely an example (and I will continue to use it below). Rifles aren't banned in any urban or suburban areas that I know of, it was part of a conversation where I was trying to highlight reasons why people of other backgrounds living in different areas might push for such things, because if you know why your opposition is doing what they're doing, then you're better equipped to defeat them.

A shotgun might be too much recoil for a senior citizen, and handguns are hard to aim accurately.
I think you might be stretching here. Senior citizens are a minority group, and handguns are not hard to aim accurately at short distances, which it most certainly would be. In any case, a 20 gauge shotty is always an option.

My grandfather is 82 and he can still fire practically anything under the sun without problems. He is a small man, not even 5'5"

No, I'm very conservative, and I've taught (very) liberals to shoot.
Yes, and you speak only for yourself, which is great. Do you feel that a majority of other "very conservative" individuals are just like you in this respect?

First of all, why would a law abiding citizen resent non-corrupt policemen?
They would not, but, and especially in major metropolitan areas, there are a good number of corrupt policemen, and MANY more that are prejudice and treat law-abiding citizens as criminals by default because of the way they look. Also, police brutality and excessive force are problems in these areas as well. Have you ever been to one and lived amongst these people? You go and you come back and tell me if they're justified in resenting the police.

I think we should point out that they would be far better able to defend themselves from crime if they had a gun. Maybe they just never considered it, and this would give them a new view on the subject.
That's the idea, but you have to change the way you're doing it if you want it to work.

Really? There is probably a range somewhere in the city, and although you can't hunt in the city, you can always go outside the city.
You've not spent much time in the city have you?

Ranges can be few and far between, ESPECIALLY ones long enough to have some fun with a rifle proper. In the city, there are no outdoor ranges outside of those owned by gun clubs which are difficult and expensive to get into. The longest indoor rifle range I've ever personally been to in an urban or suburban area was 25 yards, and I've been to 5 or 6 different ranges in my city and the surrounding area. Many of them are cramped with few lanes for high caliber rifles, most of them don't even allow rifles that aren't pistol caliber (in fact, there are only 2 within a 40 mile radius of where I live where I can go to fire a rifle that is not pistol-caliber). A rifle is, in fact, extremely unpractical in urban or suburban areas.

I'm not saying that I like it, I most certainly don't. It's just a fact.

Also, "outside of the city" in my case is at least a 2 hour drive, thanks to urban sprawl (bull****).

JImbothefiveth
January 7, 2009, 05:27 PM
the longest indoor rifle range I've ever personally been to in an urban or suburban area was 25 yards
I shoot rifles at 25 yards all the time. It's in my opinion the best distance to shoot .22s at, just use small targets.

A rifle is, in fact, extremely unpractical in urban or suburban area.
I beg to differ. A rifle offers good stopping power, and is usually lighter and more compact than a shotgun.

handguns are not hard to aim accurately at short distances, which it most certainly would be
Under stress and in the dark, I'd say they are not easy to aim, and it might be hard to hit a human chest at 7 yards(maybe the length of an apartment hallway) under those conditions.

nrgetik
January 7, 2009, 05:44 PM
I mean this has pretty much been boiled down to straight opinions. I'm not sure how you could say a rifle is lighter and more compact than a shotgun, I'd imagine it would depend greatly on which rifle and which shotgun.

Sure, I can bring my .22 to those indoor ranges and shoot it all day long at 25 yards. But, what do you think I've been doing for the past 5 years? It gets old, and when I ultimately buy something new and high caliber, what the hell am I supposed to do with it at that 25 yd indoor range? That, by the way, charge 15/hour per person per lane.

I have no problems navigating my own home in pitch black darkness, and my night vision is fairly good. I don't imagine I'd have problems aiming a handgun in such a situation any more than anything else. The stress will be there either way.

Seems to me you're splitting hairs.

MikePGS
January 10, 2009, 09:15 AM
Regardless of whether or not a rifle is the best solution (as discussed, its personal opinion) that should have no effect on the legality of them. I live in Metro Detroit (in Warren, one of the cities bordering it) and for some reason there seems to be a "guns are causing crime" sort of mentality around here, particularly in the city. It's a shame that people think that something that can be so much FUN can only be used for destructive purposes, and of course its also nice that guns can save your life if someone is trying to harm you. That being said I know a few people who are actually quite pro gun who live around here (in particular people who actually live in Detroit know the value of being armed) so I'm not sure if this is just a misperception that needs to be set straight, or if the larger populace (obviously I'm more likely to know more pro-gun people since I'm very pro-gun myself and make no effort to hide it) as a whole shares this mentality. There were a couple of good articles in the Detroit News in the past couple of years (maybe it was the Free Press... same paper really) that were talking about how a lot of people (women in particular) were taking concealed carry classes. It actually was 100 percent objective which was quite surprising. So if theres a lot of people buying guns, and a lot of people getting permits to carry them, that shows there is definitely potential to (borrowing a phrase from Oleg that I love, and love go steal when I get a chance) make gun ownership seem unremarkable. Does anyone know if any of the gun organizations has made any particular effort to target people in inner city areas or minority groups in specific?

RPCVYemen
January 18, 2009, 06:17 PM
Ranges can be few and far between, ESPECIALLY ones long enough to have some fun with a rifle proper. In the city, there are no outdoor ranges outside of those owned by gun clubs which are difficult and expensive to get into.

And at least for me, an outdoor range that I can shoot at is a long drive. Urban areas and outdoor rifle ranges, at least in NC don't seem to mix. I have a Schmidt-Rubin K31, and I haven't shot it in at least a year. It's the driver more than the expense for me. There is an indoor 100 rd range sort of near where I live, but anything outdoors is pretty far away.

Mike

TexasRifleman
January 18, 2009, 06:22 PM
A rifle is, in fact, extremely unpractical in urban or suburban area.

Pretty much all of the experts will say "pistols are used to fight your way to your rifle" or something similar.

In home defense is very well served by a carbine with proper ammunition choice. Penetration testing has shown lots of handgun rounds overpenetrate walls more than rifle rounds, if you pay attention to the ammo you choose.

You will notice that most LE agencies are moving away from the shotgun and going to the carbine for their house clearing etc type of work, overpenetration worries are a big reason why.

Use of rifles in urban settings is, for law enforcement and self defense, on the rise in a big way.

That's why we always get back to this thing of not combining hunting and the Second Amendment together. They don't have anything to do with each other.



As for the OP's question

So, what arguments could you use?

That would pretty much be one of mine. LE agencies are recognizing the value of the rifle for their uses and most of the self defense training folks are of the same opinion. Self defense was very much talked about as part of Heller and the rifle is very much a viable self defense weapon.

As far as shooting ranges in the city go, you only need 25 meters to practice very long rifle shots. Look at what the Appleseed guys do with the Army qualification targets. Fred has shrunk them down so that you can practice 200 yard shots on a 25 meter range.

patriotmilitiacaptain
January 21, 2009, 04:31 AM
"A rifle is, in fact, extremely unpractical in urban or suburban areas"



I dont know how much i agree with that.
i read your whole post, but as someone who has had to use only a pistol in a highly risky urban area,i was highly relieved to be able to use my M4. i would much rather have a primary rifle in an urban environment than not. just my 2 cents

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