[Kelly J]

I been away for a while and thought I would ask for some input on the Judge , Been looking at it for some time as a CCW weapon for myself and My Wife.

I would appreciate any feed back on this.

[mr2guru]

It's larger in person than it looks in pictures.

But it is a hot seller lately.

[goon]

I have a friend who manages a local gun department.
He tells me that he's sold a lot of them and that most of them have had problems.
He tells the customers this before they buy too. How often do you hear that from a guy working the gun counter - "Gee buddy, I wouldn't buy that if I were you. We have a lot of problems with them."
But people still buy them. So he keeps on selling them.

[mnrivrat]

Would be down my list of CCW revolvers for a few reasons. There are many better choices for a carry gun. IMO

[David E]

I have one in the shop that the owner said I could shoot. I'll do that tomorrow.

I don't expect my opinion to change much, tho.

A revolver that shoots .410 shotshells does not a 12 gauge make.

.

[FoMoGo]

Shotshells from that pistol will have VERY poor penetration.
They will cause ugly looking wounds... but unless you shoot them in the face and blind then, there is a good chance for a determined attacker to still get to you.


Jim

[mgkdrgn]

Kelly,

I own a Judge Ultralite, 4" barrel, 2.5" cylinder, and for it's intended purpose I like it a lot.

I don't know that it would make a good -concealed- carry weapon because of it's size (at least here in South Carolina where my normal mode of dress is shorts and a tshirt!). If you always wore a jacket, you might make it work with a shoulder rig. IF you could manage to CC it, I think it would work pretty well.

You are going to hear a lot of talk about how the penetration is lousy, it's a gimmick gun, not good for anything, yadda yadda yadda. Please feel free to ask those folks a) do they own one? b) have they ever fired one?

I'll leave you to guess what their answers will be.

If you want to shoot one ragged hole in a paper target at 50 yards using 45 Colt, the Judge is not the gun you want.

If you want to stop an attack at normal SD shooting distances (ie, 10 feet or less) with minimal chances of collateral damage to others, NOW you are in Judge territory. Inside your house, inside your car ... the Judge excels, IMHO.

Can you shoot someone with #8 shot 30 feet away and expect to do them any serious harm? No.

If you shoot someone at 10 feet or less with a 000 buckshot round (3 x .380 balls from the Winchester 410 round) will you so them serious damage? Oh ya, you betcha. Will it penetrate enough? Oh,I dunno ... I can put those three balls clean through 4" of pressure treated pine from 15 feet ... what do you think?

If you put a load of #4 shot into a carjackers face from inside your car will you stop him? Oh ya, you betcha.

One warning ... don't buy the Seller & Beloit 410 buckshot rounds. They are slightly expanded at the tip and won't chamber. I have heard that the "golden bear" metal 410 rounds have a problem as well ... they swell a bit when fired and are a b*tch to extract.

[David E]

Just last week on Gun and Ammo tv, there was a fat guy that claims to "exercise" by hiking up and down a mountain by his house.....

Anyway, he extolled the virtues of the Judge as a good trail gun. He proceeded to put up some "Shoot n C" targets and shot them. The holes were highlighted by the target and he said words like, "total devastion, remarkable destruction."

He DOES know those targets are made of paper, doesn't he ????

.

[David E]

This test may be of interest concerning the Judge:

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

[FoMoGo]

You are going to hear a lot of talk about how the penetration is lousy
That is because it is.
What you have is a pistol that is good for snakes...
It makes a poor shotgun, and is a less effective .45 than a dedicated chambering.
I would like to see a test between a .410 shot shell and a .45 shot shell.


Jim

[Eightball]

I wonder if the Box o' Truth would have any different results with the 3" Judge?

[Vern Humphrey]

I own a Judge Ultralite, 4" barrel, 2.5" cylinder, and for it's intended purpose I like it a lot.
What is it's intended purpose?

Concealed carry? Too big.

Hunting? Not accurate enough.

In-home defense? A pump shotgun would be a lot better.

Snakes? I use a stick or rock for that, but I have loaded and carried shot rounds for my .45 Colts that work fine.

[MCgunner]

It's purpose is home defense or perhaps CAR defense at best. But, a pump shotgun would carry IWB nearly as easily. Personally, I like a snubby revolver for home defense where I have to leave the safe room. I don't wanna be fighting over the gun with a perp. The snubby is easier to hang on to than a long gun OR a big handgun like the Judge and you don't wanna take me on with my snubby. Some might not be able to shoot one. That's a software problem. Buying a gun to make up for lousy marksmanship is not the answer, IMHO. JMHO, though. If you have a problem with a snub, one answer can be Crimson Trace grips. That's a good thing for point shooting in any case and I've been thinkin' I might put some money in that direction where hardware is concerned. Doesn't cost in concealment, either.

Snakes have often been quoted for justification of the judge, but personally, I'm no Jerry Miculek and I've never had a problem taking a snake's head off (if I felt the need) with a .22 pistol or revolver or a .38. I don't need shot loads. I even shot a rattler's head once that was under my feeder when I wanted to dump corn. It was 10 feet and I head shot him, one shot, with a 1 5/8" NAA mini revolver. Tough target, them snakes. :rolleyes:

[dirt_j00]

The BOT tests show .410 buckshot from the Judge penetrating ~4.5 inches of ballistic gelatin after going through a denim shirt.

That would make a BG think twice about his actions - much less 5 shots of this (15 possible entry holes).

For CC, I can't see how that would work easily. Mine is too big & heavy. For in the car, though, it would be a sure thing.

[Vern Humphrey]

That would make a BG think twice about his actions
Any tactic that is based on the assumption that BGs think even once about their actions is likely to fail.

[General Geoff]

If you want a shotgun pistol, fill out the damn paperwork and get an AOW. The Judge is a poor substitute for a short barreled 12 gauge pistol.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The sales of the Judge seem to far exceed its actual niche usefulness. Having said that, I have one! :) But I like niche guns.

[dirt_j00]

Any tactic that is based on the assumption that BGs think even once about their actions is likely to fail.

Let me rephrase - 15 shots of .34 load 4+ inches deep in your body will make you stop what you are doing.

[mgkdrgn]

I wonder if the Box o' Truth would have any different results with the 3" Judge?

Maybe, but it would FOR SURE be different if they shot from 10 FEET rather than 10 YARDS. The vast vast vast majority of SD shootings are at 10 feet or less.

[mgkdrgn]

That is because it is.
What you have is a pistol that is good for snakes...
It makes a poor shotgun, and is a less effective .45 than a dedicated chambering.
I would like to see a test between a .410 shot shell and a .45 shot shell.
Jim

You think 3 000 buck balls are going to bounce off your jacket at 10 feet?

Have you ever fired a Judge?

[MCgunner]

One .38 Special 158 +P JHP will make two holes, one in and one out, and if properly applied should stop all aggression. If it don't, apply until it does. Same for .45, 9mm, .40. I never was one for fixing what ain't broke. The thing to do is to get good with the tool. Be sure you can properly apply the force.

That said, I'm sure the judge is fine for home defense. If I just HAD to have one, I think I'd load .45 Colt silvertips in it, though. I'd go with 00 if I lived in an apartment. That's where I think the judge would shine. It would get the job done while minimizing the danger to neighbors. there's not a thing wrong with the stopping power of the .45 Colt, though.

[SwordRapier]

I am going to be perfectly honest. I don't own one never fired one. So I have no idea. Just thought I would throw that out.

[jglcolosprgs]

This thread may help some....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=407906&highlight=judge+barrel

I own a number of Taurus weapons, but I'd sure think twice about this one...

[ArmedBear]

Everyone wants one now, it seems.

And I honestly can't figure out why.

[MCgunner]

It's gotta be marketing. After all, what ever happened to the "thunder five"? Wasn't exactly a screaming success.

http://tucson.backpage.com/gyrobase/classifieds/EnlargeImage?oid=oid%3A788784&image=oid%3A789464

[Hawk]

The thing seems to be selling well and making Taurus a pile of money. As far as I'm concerned people buying handguns is a good thing even if the thing appears to be overly compromised to me.

But I did play with one at the LGS and it's a lot bigger than it appears in the pictures. I couldn't picture it being a reasonable CCW unless your standard wardrobe consists of arctic survival gear or perhaps a bunny suit.

[benderx4]

If I were to get one, I'd get the new 3" cylinder model for sure. With the 3" casings, it can shoot (5) 70 grain pellets at once at the BG. That's like emptying my Seecamp all at once!

I wouldn't look at the lightweight version as I can't see this gun being used for concealed carry. But you gotta admit, maybe not in a Dirty Harry type of way, but this is still one bad hombre of a gun!

(And no, I don't own one.)

[FoMoGo]

You think 3 000 buck balls are going to bounce off your jacket at 10 feet?

Have you ever fired a Judge?
those 3 000 balls wont do the damage of 1, thats ONE, .45 silvertip.
And wont be as accurate either.
It seems to be hamstringing yourself to get a pistol that fires a very effective SD round, such as the .45, and shooting much less effective rounds.
Also, if the round is going to be a lot less effective at 30 feet than it is at 10 feet... I dont want it.
I have no want to fire weak shot shells in a hand gun, so no... I have not fired one.
The question here should be this tho... not "Have you fired one"... but "have you been shot by one". ;)


Jim

[mgkdrgn]

The question here should be this tho... not "Have you fired one"... but "have you been shot by one". ;)


You'll just have to trust me on this ... you don't want to be.

[FoMoGo]

I have been shot with a .25 and that was more than enough. ;)
However, if I could choose between getting shot with a .410 from a short barrel and a .45 LC... I am going to take the .410 every time.


Jim

[SwordRapier]

I think this thread has just taken a turn for the silly. A 22LR at close range will kill you just as dead as 50 cal. Dead is dead.

[Vern Humphrey]

As I've said before, self-defense isn't about killing. It's about stopping an attack.

[SwordRapier]

I Understand that the self-defense is about stopping the attack. I was just attempting to point out the silliness of "volunteering" to be shot with a .410 shot shell as a opposed to a 45LC Just plain silly.

[Gryffydd]

No one is "volunteering" to be shot by one. He was pointing out the silliness of "Have you ever shot one" as an indication of a gun's effectiveness. It's quite possible for a gun to have significant recoil, report, and muzzle flash, and yet still be ineffective.

Also, keep in mind that 4" of penetration in gelatin *not* very much. Not enough that I would trust it to *stop* an attacker.

[SwordRapier]

I Understand FoMoGo arguments. I just think that it was silly way of wording his arguments. As I have stated before. I have never seen the Judge let alone fired it. But I have found this thread amusing.


I do hope no one takes offence at my posts. If so I am sorry.

[Gryffydd]

I just think the Judge is a real polarizing handgun. There's the people who think it's the greatest thing ever, and those who think it's completely useless. The truth it would seem, is somewhere in between. The 410 buckshot is far from an ideal penetrator, but so is the .380.

Maybe one group needs to realize that it's a long way from a 12ga pump and the other group needs to realize that it's at least better than a .25 Auto ;)

[SwordRapier]

Okay, Gryffydd I will by that. Sure seems like we have seen examples of the polarizing effect of the Judge. Personally I don't know enough about it to make a decision. However an interesting comprise since the judge can fire both the 45Lc and the .410 shot shell maybe you could alternate the loads in the cylinder so it the shot shell doesn’t stop the attack the next load is the Long colt.

[Gryffydd]

I have read of a number of people who keep something like #6 shot in the first cylinder or 2, and .45 colt in the rest.

If one is going to rely on the Judge, this seems like the best way to do it. You give it an opportunity to do its little trick, and if that fails its back to the round that has proven itself over the last 136 some years.

Personally, I'd rather start right off with the big chunk of lead. I'm not sure how much harder it would be to hit a carjacker in the face with a .45 slug than with bird or buckshot when the distance to the attacker is likely <3 feet. Given my living conditions I'm not worried about over penetration.

[FoMoGo]

No way I would step up and ask to be shot. :p
I am all about having the most effective round... without having something difficult to manage or being powerful enough to be a liability to yourself.
With a .44 magnum, I would still carry it with .44 special loads... less blast, less recoil for a follow up shot, and less chance of going deaf if I had to light it off indoors.
I alter my dress to be able to carry larger guns with more powerful rounds.
And if I am going to make the concession to carry the larger gun, I am not going to hamstring myself with a much more ineffective round than I could use.
I dont begrudge anyone who wants a Judge... just understand fully what the effect of the rounds you could fire when you make your choice for your personal protection.


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

maybe you could alternate the loads in the cylinder so it the shot shell doesn’t stop the attack the next load is the Long colt.
Why not shoot him with the .45 Colt first?

After all, your first shot may be the only one you get.

[FoMoGo]

Maximum damage as fast as possible.


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

But will you get maximum damage with such slight penetration?

[FoMoGo]

Nope... thats why ya pop em with the heavy lead. ;)


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

That's why I don't see much advantage in this weapon:

1. Too big and heavy for conceaed carry.

2. .410 load is marginal for self defense anyway.

3. Not accurate with .45 rounds.

I can get a lighter, more accurate .45 Colt for carry and a more powerful shotgun for home defense.

[FoMoGo]

And THAT... is my view on it also.


Jim

[David E]

Shot it today. The .45 Colt Shotshell did pretty well in comparison. .410 had 1/2 oz of #8 shot, .45 Colt shotshell had 1/3 oz of #9 shot. CCI says it's about 150 pellets. I didn't count the .410.

I took pics that I'll try and post later if anyone cares.

The shotshell wasn't as full a pattern as the .410 at 5 yds, but it wasn't too shabby, either. Clearly enough for "snake-a-cide" use.

Firing 255 SWC .45 Colt resulted in a 6-7" group at 10 yds with 11 of 12 bullets keyholing.

This gun wouldn't be my first choice!

.

[ChemicalArts]

The Judge seems like a novelty to me. Interesting, but it's not what I'd spend my next gun dollars on.

[David E]

Well, my pics of the shot patterns didn't show squat!

Here is one of firing .45 Colt 255 SWC's using a rest from 10 yds, single action. Disregard the one outside the circle.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/Sooper1/MVC-012F-5.jpg

[David E]

Here's a pic of a TWO yard shot, as suggested by some. It measures about 4" from edge to edge of the pattern. The main hole was about 1.5" Might as well shoot a REAL bullet!

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/Sooper1/MVC-014F-4.jpg

[Vern Humphrey]

It seems to me the Judge would be a real nice gun -- if they'd shorten the cylinder, deepen the rifling, and forget about shooting .410 shells in it.

[HexHead]

Load it with alternating rounds of .410 shot and .45 LC. The shot would be disorienting as hell, then you can deliver the coup de grace with the .45. :evil:

[Brian Williams]

It seems to me the Judge would be a real nice gun -- if they'd shorten the cylinder, deepen the rifling, and forget about shooting .410 shells in it.
Vern they did and then they discontinued it.
I had one like that, a Taurus Tracker in 45 Colt and that was a nice gun, I sold it to help out someone less fortunate, One shot from that would be disorienting as hell and there would be no need for a Coup de Gras

The Judge has a niche and I has yet to find out who or where it is.

[FoMoGo]

I would prefer the Coup de Grace to be with the first shot...


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

I would prefer the Coup de Grace to be with the first shot...
Amen -- because you might live to get off a second shot.

[seeker_two]

This test may be of interest concerning the Judge:

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm


The only concern I have with the BOT test is that they had to cut down a 3" .410 buckshot shell to fit in their Judge. That may have compromised the test results. I'd like to see them redo the test with an intact .410 buckshot round (either 2 3/4" or 3") for a more accurate result...

...and I'd like to see a comparison b/t .410 birdshot vs. .45Colt shot rounds for snake defense....

But I do agree with two of their results....birdshot is NOT a SD round...and the .45Colt round will outperform all the others for SD....and the Judge would make for a good short-range snake gun.....

[David E]

Compromised how? Maybe less velocity resulted from the cut down shell?

The pellets flattened out anyway, which would negatively affect penetration.

As a matter of note, I saw an ad showing that Federal is now making a buckshot load specifically for the Judge. While that is mildly interesting, I don't see it changing anything to a significant degree.

[Vern Humphrey]

I saw an ad showing that Federal is now making a buckshot load specifically for the Judge.
Great Googlie Mooglie! Is there no end to this folly?:D

[fxstchewy]

I had some "keyhole" when using 250grn loads but when i used 200grn georgia arms ammo i didn't have any "keyhole" the georgia arms ammo was stouter.

[mgkdrgn]

Compromised how?

Because it proved beyond a shadow of doubt that these clowns were morons that couldn't even be bothered to acquire the correct ammunition for their "tests".

[seeker_two]

Compromised how? Maybe less velocity resulted from the cut down shell...

Yep...compare velocity b/t a crimped centerfire cartridge round vs. a loosely-fitting one, and the crimped one will be faster d/t pressure built up from the resistance of the crimp. I doubt a crimped shotgun shell vs. a cut-open one will prove any different....

I saw an ad showing that Federal is now making a buckshot load specifically for the Judge

Interesting....maybe loaded w/ a faster-burning powder & harder shot?....wonder how it performs out of a regular .410 shotgun?...

[FoMoGo]

The .410 buckshot could have had double the penetration they got... and still not have been up to the performance of the .45.
Hell, the .45 did twice as good as the slug.
True demonstration of an inferior approach to defense.


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

Hell, the .45 did twice as good as the slug.
True demonstration of an inferior approach to defense.

Which leads to the question, since the .45 Colt is so much better for defense, why use the .410 for that purpose at all?

[seeker_two]

The .410 buckshot could have had double the penetration they got... and still not have been up to the performance of the .45.


That would be like saying that the 12ga. shotgun is inferior to a .45Colt levergun b/c the .45Colt penetrates more. If Federal can double the performance of .410 buckshot, it would make a pretty good short-range SD load for the Judge or Bond Derringers.....

...but then, if you want penetration, just go straight to the .454Casull and keep smiling... :D

[Vern Humphrey]

That would be like saying that the 12ga. shotgun is inferior to a .45Colt levergun b/c the .45Colt penetrates more.
No. The reason is both have more than enough penetration. Both a slug and a .45 Colt bullet will give through-and-through penetration in a human body. Either one will do the job.

But a projectile that doesn't have enough penetration won't do the job reliably.

[seeker_two]

Both a slug and a .45 Colt bullet will give through-and-through penetration in a human body. Either one will do the job.


...and 12ga. buckshot will not?.... :scrutiny:

[tango2echo]

The way I see the Judge is as the Old Springfield M6 survival rifle, just smaller and more powerful. It doesn't do any one thing well, but it does do a variety of things. I cannot see it as an effective CCW. I have never fired one and the closest I have come to one was holding it in a gun store. It was heavy, bulky, and awkward. I did own a Thunder Five, which was excellent for shooting rabbits at close range. Other than that, it too was a nich gun.

T2E

[Vern Humphrey]

...and 12ga. buckshot will not?....
Is there a verison of the Judge that will handle 12 ga shells?;)

[FoMoGo]

Is there a verison of the Judge that will handle 12 ga shells?
OK... I would look into buying that.
Could you suggest a good IWB holster for a 5-6 shot 12 gauge revolver? :D


Jim

[Vern Humphrey]

OK... I would look into buying that.
Could you suggest a good IWB holster for a 5-6 shot 12 gauge revolver?

Yep -- comes with a 68-inch belt and has a built-in cell phone that calls for an ambulance every time you fire it.

[FoMoGo]

SWEET!!!
Put me down for 2.


Jim

[KBintheSLC]

I like the concept of the Judge, but I wouldn't CCW a gun that was that bulky. I would rather get a Ruger or Smith snubbie .357 maggie. I can see using the Judge for open carry in the woods full of hot loaded 45's, and carrying some shot shells for small game hunting.

[seeker_two]

Is there a verison of the Judge that will handle 12 ga shells?

I thought we were still talking about long-guns....now you want to go back to the Judge?.....keep up with the thread drift, man!.... :p

Then again....a 12ga. Judge would make a great modern-day Howdah pistol....


Yep -- comes with a 68-inch belt and has a built-in cell phone that calls for an ambulance every time you fire it.


....and a stainless-steel headband to keep the front sight from burying itself permanently in your forehead.... :what:

[deacon8]

Let's think about his for a minute. All the "Judge" is, is a .45 LC with an extended cylinder that makes it .410 capable. Of course, .410 out of a 2.5" barrel is not ideal for protection from people, but it will put a rattlesnake to rest with ease. And a .45 LC, loaded with 250 grain GoldDots, will surely put a bad-guy on his a$$ for good. Is it big, no. Is it tiny (made for jogging in a city)? I guess it depends on what you're wearing. However, it is a tool that serves dual purposes. I don't own one, but I have messed with one and see uses for life-threatening people and snakes.

[Brian Williams]

Why is it people always want to shoot snakes...

[seeker_two]

Read Genesis... :cool:

[jglcolosprgs]

How about this for a reason to skip it?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3193703127_0790a6b2a0.jpg?v=0

[dirt_j00]

DISCLAIMER: As I stated earlier, I own a Judge.

But I could Google most any gun, and find a picture of a broken one.

So by your reasoning, any model gun that has ever broken should be skipped?

[David E]

Because it proved beyond a shadow of doubt that these (Box o' Truth) clowns were morons that couldn't even be bothered to acquire the correct ammunition for their "tests".

It showed how hard it is to FIND the "correct" ammo. The owner of the Judge that I had in the shop can only find #8 shot. It's all I could find, too.

We'll wait and see how available the new Federal .410 ammo will be.

Meanwhile, since you clearly look upon the "box o' truth" testers with such disdain, I eagerly await for YOUR tests, properly and thoroughly done, to be completed and posted.

Can you tell us when that will be?

.

[Kleanbore]

Load it with alternating rounds of .410 shot and .45 LC. The shot would be disorienting as hell, then you can deliver the coup de grace with the .45.

I presume that that refers to a hypothetical encounter with an animal. I don't think I would want to rely on disorientation against a dangerous beast.

[Vern Humphrey]

The shot would be disorienting as hell, then you can deliver the coup de grace with the .45.

I've never heard anyone say, "Sure as disorientin'.";)

The one hit you get may be the only hit you get -- you may be dead before you can deliver the "coup de grace." Don't fiddle around with a shotshell. Shoot your best shot first.

[mgkdrgn]

It showed how hard it is to FIND the "correct" ammo. The owner of the Judge that I had in the shop can only find #8 shot. It's all I could find, too.

Well, when can't find what you want locally (no matter what it is), there is new thing called the "internet". I had no problem finding the correct ammo there. 45 Colt isn't exactly a "common stock" round either.

Meanwhile, since you clearly look upon the "box o' truth" testers with such disdain, I eagerly await for YOUR tests, properly and thoroughly done, to be completed and posted.
Can you tell us when that will be?


Already been and reported on here, several times. As I'm dealing with what is meant as a "point defense" weapon, I'm testing at 10 FEET, not 10 YARDS. As the vast vast vast majority of SD shootings are at 10 feet or less, I see that distance as more than realistic.

At that distance, my 4" Judge ultralite will put all 3 000 buck balls clean through 4" of pine all day long. What does that translate to in "balistics gel"? I have no clue ... but my guess is that it's at least 1/2 a dense as pine. So, 3 X .350 lead projectiles with 8" of penetration for each pull of the trigger? Sounds sufficiently discouraging to me. I sure as hell don't want to be shot with it.

Plus, I get a pattern to boot rather than a single projectile. 3X the chances of a single hit (rather than near miss), and if all 3 balls come to the party, 3X the chances of hitting something vital. Sounds like a win-win to me.

#4 shot will pass through 1" of pine at 10 feet. Is that load a "one shot make 'em DRT all the time" load?

Nope.

Will a carjacker "move on" to his next victim if he takes a load of that in the face?

Hmmmm, ya, I think so.

As for accuracy ... targets were posted also. At 5 paces I had a buckshot pattern about 12" around. At 3 paces it's down to 6-8 inches (IE, all "A" of the COM area of the target or all headshot). With 45 Colt on the steel plate machine I put down 5 plates at 15 yards with the first 5 shots I fired.

Trophy match shooting accuracy? No.

Good enough for SD? I do believe so, yes.

Is the Judge the greatest pistol of all time, such that all other manufactures should just close up shop and go home? No.

Is a good tool for it's intended use, close in SD, with some added versatility thrown in (would be a GREAT trail gun) just for fun. Yes.

Are we done yet?

[Vern Humphrey]

Will a carjacker "move on" to his next victim if he takes a load of that in the face?

But he may kill his victim before doing so.

[David E]

Nice "report," but without pics, it didn't happen.

Having a shot spread ain't always a good thing. You can have 1 or 2 pellets hit and 1 or 2 misses....with EACH trigger pull. :eek:

What if you need to make a 5 yd shot with the badguy holding your wife or kid hostage? You only have a headshot available. Bummer, eh ?

The problem with niche guns is that things don't always happen within that particular niche envelope. See the hostage example above.

Me, I want a gun that is viable over a wider spectrum.

.

[Vern Humphrey]

One thing I notice is that everyone admits the Judge is too big and clumsy for a carry gun. And yet people keep bringing up scenarios ("when you're being carjacked") when you would have to be carrying your Judge in order for it to be available.

[Gryffydd]

If we get invaded by Zombie Snakes or Man Eating Woodpeckers I'll be first in line to buy a Judge...for when I run out of 12ga shells.

Until I see the 3 000 buckshot pellets get at LEAST 12" of penetration in gelatin they're out too.

[David E]

One thing I notice is that everyone admits the Judge is too big and clumsy for a carry gun. And yet people keep bringing up scenarios ("when you're being carjacked") when you would have to be carrying your Judge in order for it to be available.

Unfortunately, I have found that, to SOME people, "carrying a gun" means keeping it in their car.

The obvious question is, what will you do when confronted OUTSIDE your car?

I recently had an experience that turned out to be nothing, but easily could've been something if the guy decided differently. I was 10 feet from my car with the driver's side door open, but it would've been too far away to do any good.........if that's where my gun was.

(Yesteday, he was convicted of 3 felonies that he committed 30 minutes after my encounter with him.)

[Vern Humphrey]

The obvious question is, what will you do when confronted OUTSIDE your car?

You say, "Kings-Ex while I get my Taurus Judge out of the glove compartment." of course.:p

[GoodKat]

I think the ideal use for the judge would be to mount it under your car dash and use it to shoot carjackers in the face with birdshot, also load the last 2 chambers with good 45LC rounds to keep him down.

[Gryffydd]

Why would you ever want to shoot him in the face with birdshot when you could do the same thing with a .45 Slug just as easily. If his face is more than 3' away from you you're not getting carjacked. If it's less than 3' away from you the spread on the birdshot won't help you any.

You're just asking for a civil suit where you first tried to maim him cruelly and then shot him while he was down.

[GoodKat]

I disagree about the spread not helping, Taurus purposely rifled their barrels to increase spread, it's not like you can use your sights.

[Gryffydd]

If you're counting on spread you're betting your life (or maybe just your car) on only part of your pattern of itty bitty bird shot hitting only part of their face.

[GoodKat]

Better to hit with one pellet of Birdshot than to miss with a 38.

[mgkdrgn]

Nice "report," but without pics, it didn't happen.

It's been posted here already (if you had bothered to read), several times. I'm not going to waste my time (or THR's bandwidth) because you are too lazy to do a search for what is already here.

Having a shot spread ain't always a good thing. You can have 1 or 2 pellets hit and 1 or 2 misses....with EACH trigger pull. :eek:

As opposed to a miss with a single projectile? Are you more concerned with getting a hit, or with your misses? If I can't hit the target with a 6-12" pattern of multiple projectiles, I doubt I'd have better luck if I'm just tossing out 1.

And if I -do- miss, I've not got a projectile that is going to dissipate it's energy pretty quickly, and be less of a danger of causing collateral damage. This is particularly true in a car where you are likely going to fire at a bit of an UP angle. A miss from that 9mm, .40, .45 whatever has got to come to rest somewhere, and if that kid on the swingset two blocks away happens to be at that spot, well, it's just too bad for him.

What if you need to make a 5 yd shot with the badguy holding your wife or kid hostage? You only have a headshot available. Bummer, eh ?

And if the aliens have force shields I'm **** out of luck too. Lets see, the last time I, you, or anybody else you know, or read about, took a 5 yard shot at somebody holding a member of their family as a hostage (except in the movies) was ... umm, ya, never.

[Gryffydd]

Better to hit with one pellet of Birdshot than to miss with a 38.

If you can't hit a carjacker from <3' with a bullet you don't have any business carrying a gun. That's contact distance for crying out loud. I don't care how panicked you are. Shove the barrel in his face/torso and pull the trigger.

[FoMoGo]

Better to hit with 1 round of .45 than miss with an assload of pellets.


Jim

[David E]

I disagree about the spread not helping, Taurus purposely rifled their barrels to increase spread, it's not like you can use your sights.

No, they rifled the barrel to comply with FEDERAL LAW !

To not rifle the barrel, it would be a major criminal offense, as outlined in 1934.

If rifling the barrel "helped" a shotgun, why do they only rifle the slug barrels?

Exactly.

Rifling causes the shot column to spin, creating a donut pattern that opens up fast. Usually TOO fast.

.

[David E]

It's been posted here already (if you had bothered to read), several times. I'm not going to waste my time (or THR's bandwidth) because you are too lazy to do a search for what is already here.

Man, your posts are funny! You take everything so personally ! I did do a quick search using "Taurus Judge" and didn't find anything posted by you that had any pics. I'm not lazy, I just don't have time to go thru 18+ pages of posts that might have your "testing" pictures.......you DID take pictures, right?

Quote:
What if you need to make a 5 yd shot with the badguy holding your wife or kid hostage? You only have a headshot available. Bummer, eh ?

Lets see, the last time I, you, or anybody else you know, or read about, took a 5 yard shot at somebody holding a member of their family as a hostage (except in the movies) was ... umm, ya, never.

Dude, you need to get out more, watch the news, or do some reading. Seriously. Does it happen often? No, but it does, and has, happened.

I hope your clunky, cumbersome, short-range Judge is enough gun for you, should you ever need it.

But I am curious.............Do you actually carry it? Or just keep it in the car? In the trunk?

.

[FoMoGo]

But I am curious.............Do you actually carry it? Or just keep it in the car? In the trunk?
On a shrine in a special room... :D


Jim

[JBritton]

I recently bought "The Judge" and have taken it to the range a few times. So far, it does every thing I wanted it to do. While many talk about recoil, it isn't as bad or, at least, any worse than my .357 Ruger firing 38 spc. The grip is extremely comfortable and apparently absorbs much of the impact. I've also heard that the 410 shells are hard to find in 2.5 inch. Maybe I'm fortunate but the shop where I bought it carries them in stock...the 2.5 inch 000 Buck. I was told the three shots in these were .36 cal. On the range it is surprisingly accurate. The spread of the shot at 15 feet and 21 feet (the distance I figure for in-home defense) is 2-3". Also, it is my understanding that the new "Judge" will handle the 3" shells. You might want to confirm this before acting on it. As for the 45 LC, you can get those in a wide variety of tips for various preferences and performance. BTW: I've had flawless performance from mine. The 410's are messy so I clean it after every outing.
Safe fun and good luck. Enjoy it.

[GoodKat]

If you can't hit a carjacker from <3' with a bullet you don't have any business carrying a gun. That's contact distance for crying out loud. I don't care how panicked you are. Shove the barrel in his face/torso and pull the trigger.
Your sitting in you car's driver seat and the guy is standing outside, he can jump back, he can maneuver, you cant, that's the freaking point!

No, they rifled the barrel to comply with FEDERAL LAW !
I am aware of the law, however taurus' website states "We have finely tuned the rifling to spread the shot pattern at close quarters"

[FoMoGo]

At 3 foot, if he moves like you say... you will miss anyway.
At 3' the spread isnt huge.
ANY rifling will spread the shot... my slug barreled mossberg 12 ga spreads it so much that it is pretty much an ineffective cloud of shot at most ranges I would try to use it at.


Jim

[mgkdrgn]

Dude, you need to get out more, watch the news, or do some reading. Seriously. Does it happen often? No, but it does, and has, happened.

In your own words: "Nice "report," but without pics, it didn't happen." Hell, just a single reference to a news report will do. Remember, your scenario, shooting a BG, holding a hostage that is a member of the shooters family. Take your time, I'll wait.

But I am curious.............Do you actually carry it? Or just keep it in the car? In the trunk? .

It's not my daily carry, no. That is either my NAA BlackWidow in 22mag or my Glock 26 (in cooler weather, mainly tshirts and shorts here in SC).

The Judge is my nightstand gun and my car gun. In the car, it goes in a holster I have rigged on the front side of the drivers side seat. Much easier to get to than the Glock or NAA in my pants pocket. If I happen to get out of the car, between the tinted windows and the black towel I drape over it and the black seat ... you can't see it even if you know it's there. The gun is only in the car when I am.

Since you are "search challenged", here are some pictures for you.

[Big Daddy Grim]

It's just to big for everyday makes a great car gun, and a super hunters helper but not a great carry. I carry mine while hunting killed 8 grouse with it this year I have the 3in. model.

[mgkdrgn]

It's just to big for everyday makes a great car gun, and a super hunters helper but not a great carry. I carry mine while hunting killed 8 grouse with it this year I have the 3in. model.

No, not a great CC, but that's not what it's for. If I had it to do over again I'd like to have had a 3" rather than a 4" maybe, but couldn't find any of those when the one I have came along.

Is yours straight steel or ultralite? I believe there is somebody now that will modify the steel so they can fire 45 ACP with moon clips.

[David E]

Aurora, Colorado, 1988 or so. Burglar breaks into the house, takes 10 year old son hostage. Dad shoots badguy dead.

It made the news and all. But I won't waste my time and THR's bandwidth because you're too lazy to do a search for yourself. ;)

You won't find this sufficient tho, but it doesnt' change the fact.

Good luck with your gun selection(s)

[Gryffydd]

Your sitting in you car's driver seat and the guy is standing outside, he can jump back, he can maneuver, you cant, that's the freaking point!

Unless you're getting jacked by Neo from the Matrix, this shouldn't be a factor unless you're unbelievably slow getting your shot off.

Second...If he does jump back, what's your shotshell going to do then? If he jumps back and has a gun, the last thing I want to do is shoot him with a shotshell leaving him injured but perfectly capable of blasting away at me.

[GoodKat]

Unless you're getting jacked by Neo from the Matrix, this shouldn't be a factor unless you're unbelievably slow getting your shot off.
The time it takes to reach for and draw the gun would likely be sufficient for the carjacker to move.

Second...If he does jump back, what's your shotshell going to do then? If he jumps back and has a gun, the last thing I want to do is shoot him with a shotshell leaving him injured but perfectly capable of blasting away at me.
That's what the other 2 shotshells and the 2 .45's are for, the first blast should give you enough time to make some well placed shots, it fact, I might would consider just loading the first chamber with shot.

[David E]

.If he does jump back, what's your shotshell going to do then? If he jumps back and has a gun, the last thing I want to do is shoot him with a shotshell leaving him injured but perfectly capable of blasting away at me.

Well, yeah, there's that.........

:D :D :D

[Gryffydd]

The time it takes to reach for and draw the gun would likely be sufficient for the carjacker to move.
That part doesn't change whether you're using shotshells or .45 slugs. The only thing the shotshell does is make it *slightly* easier to hit, at the cost of giving up any chance at anything other than a psychological deterrent. Consider that with approximately a 6" spread at 6 feet (http://gunblast.com/images/Taurus-UltraLiteJudge/DSC01852.jpg), you still have to be dead on if you want to do enough damage to really deter him. And even if you manage that, with a face full of birdshot, there's nothing keeping him from using his trigger finger. He may not be able to see very well, but I still wouldn't want to be on the other end of his spray 'n pray.

Then there's the fact that if he does back up, .45 slugs let you shoot for COM rather than trying for a maiming shot to the face with a birdshot spread barely as large as the face itself.

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the point is, you aren't guarenteed to win any fight. Nor, once you get off your first shot are you guarenteed to live long enough to get off a second one.

A wise man would use what is most likely to finish the job with a single hit.

[SwordRapier]

I just have a question. It is nearly related to the topic. It is my understanding that ballistics gel is supposed to simulate a bullet’s passage though the soft tissues of a human body. Correct? If that is the case where did these magic numbers of 12” come from? I am a big fat over 300 pound man. I don’t think that I am over 12 inches at my thickest point. So anything over 12” or more would go straight though me and into someone or something else. Now a penetration of 4” into my torso would put the projectile into contact with organs and tissues. So please help me out here why is 4” penetration bad?

I am not trying to be sarcastic. As I have stated twice on this thread. I have not opinion of the judge other than the fact that I like guns and it is a gun.

[Gryffydd]

Well, first off, there's a lot more to the body than soft tissue. A bullet's penetration in gelatin tends to be greater than its penetration in an actual body which includes bones etc. That's "tends to" because there are so many variables. Basically take any path through the body and you could have a path of resistance completely different than one 1" away.

So...What if you're rushing me with a knife? My bullet might hit you in the arm, go through your thick leather jacket, travel lengthwise through several inches of flesh, hit bone, travel through another inch or more of flesh, hit your leather jacket again twice before even getting to the skin on your torso.

If every shot was a perfectly aligned perpendicular to the torso, with a clear path, with the target facing you and wearing only a t shirt...4" wouldn't be so bad. But if you count on getting that perfect shot you'll be in trouble when you don't get it.

[ArmedBear]

I'll take 13+1 of .45ACP in a right-sized XD over an oversized revolver that shoots .410 shells.

It's a helluva gimmick, and everyone seems to be interested. Good job, Taurus. That is a marketing coup.

I predict a whole bunch of Judges at gun shows, cheap, in about 2011.