FFL dealer tried to OTC to me!


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PryItFromMyColdDeadHands
January 8, 2009, 08:01 AM
I recently ordered two AR-15 lowers and when they came in the FFL dealer tried to just hand them to me.....I got to the counter and the owner said "well your parts arrived this morning, there will not be a charge since they didn't stay over night."
I promptly corrected the owner and informed them to give me the paperwork and let me fill it out. They were shocked and had no idea at all that the lowers were FFL items that needed to be logged in the book. i had to show them where the Serial numbers were and explain just what the lower was.

has anyone else ever had this happen to them and was I right by not just taking them?

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Joe7cri
January 8, 2009, 08:13 AM
and was I right by not just taking them?

I think you were, you should always CYA.

71Commander
January 8, 2009, 08:18 AM
OTC:confused:

PryItFromMyColdDeadHands
January 8, 2009, 08:19 AM
over the counter

kurtmax
January 8, 2009, 08:20 AM
TBH I would have just taken them.

There's nothing really illegal doing so, it's all the dealer's problem. It'd save me the hassle of the not-so-'instant' nics check...

rbernie
January 8, 2009, 08:24 AM
There's nothing really illegal doing so, it's all the dealer's problem.My gut tells me that even if you may beat the rap, you'll not likely beat the ride on this sort of thing.

It's always best to show due diligence in following the law.

IdahoLT1
January 8, 2009, 08:30 AM
if you did let them slip and the feds caught on(chances are goo they would eventually), your lower probably would have been consficated because it is evidence in a federal crime.

Ive had bank tellers accidently deposit money that wasnt mine into my account(~$11k once). Although the little devil on my left shoulder told me to withdrawal the money and close the account, the angel on my right said they will eventually catch on and it will come back to bite me in the keister by either having to pay it back and/or serve.face jail time. The next day, i walked in and notified the teller of the error.

taprackbang
January 8, 2009, 08:35 AM
"'OTC"
should be that easy, but....

Mike2
January 8, 2009, 08:37 AM
When in doubt always follow the rules, if you don't like the rules, work as hard as you can to have them changed. One person making enough noise can impart change, but it takes significant effort.

PryItFromMyColdDeadHands
January 8, 2009, 08:37 AM
i asked my loan officer at my bank a hypothetical question about a bank error in my favor type of situation and HE told me that my banks policy was that if the money got spent before it was taken back out that it was just basically a x-mas present! ....of course all banks differ though...mine is not a large CORP.

willmartin
January 8, 2009, 09:01 AM
Think Prilosec OTC.

subknave
January 8, 2009, 09:33 AM
Apparently they weren't very knowledgable and you did the right thing in educating them on the correct procedures.

Yoda
January 8, 2009, 09:48 AM
A few years ago, a new FFL confided in me that he would be willing to sell me some stuff "off the books," from his "personal collection." I was standing at his store counter at the time. I advised him that I didn't think he had that option, and even if he did, it probably wasn't a very smart way to do business. Guess what? He's not in business any more. He didn't last long.

- - - Yoda

Duke of Doubt
January 8, 2009, 09:49 AM
I've discovered once or twice after the fact that guns I purchased in good faith as antiques ... weren't. In one case the dealer covered his butt by stating up front it was his private possession and not in inventory. Whatever. Still, the onus is on the FFL holder, not the buyer. Good point though on them potentially being held as evidence ... perhaps after you've attached all kinds of parts to them.

As to banks, I don't think if they put a million into your account and you absconded to Jamaica that they'd call it a Christmas present. We had a case around here years ago where a lot of money was deposited in error into a guy's account. He spent it long before it was discovered. Turns out he had non-steady but substantial income from many sources (he was a contractor) and a spendthrift spouse, so he never had much idea what was going into and out of his account. The lawyers for the bank (a couple of real jerks) pushed very hard for prison time. To me, that was unfair. Pay it back, sure, but over time, as it was the bank's error. I don't recall whether the poor fool ended up getting time or not.

TimRB
January 8, 2009, 10:40 AM
You may well have saved your dealer's license. I hope he takes this as a wake-up call and goes through his records to make certain there weren't other instances where he received lowers but didn't put them in his bound book.

Someone, somewhere, has a bound book showing that those lowers were shipped to your dealer. If he actually received them but they don't show up in his bound book, he is in real trouble.

Tim

PryItFromMyColdDeadHands
January 8, 2009, 10:46 AM
yeah they didn't even know what an AR-15 Was !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are older ppl....which is no excuse but my god!

BATF might need to issue a test or something before they hand those licenses out! LOL j/k

cracked butt
January 8, 2009, 11:18 AM
You probably could have paid cash for them and walked out the door with no paperwork following the receivers.

On the other hand, the dealer sounds like a decent sort. Being honest and correcting the error will probably help you out in the long run because the shop you patronize hasn't been shut down or prosecuted out of existance by the BATFE.

7.62X25mm
January 8, 2009, 12:03 PM
Yeah, right --

Call me skeptical here, but an FFL needs to transfer firearms from a distributor to his books just like he needs to transfer the guns from his books to a retail sale.

You don't get your FFL out of the bottom of a box of Cracker Jacks.

And an accounting error at the bank is not a "freebie" either.

conserv1
January 8, 2009, 12:18 PM
I fail to see the "real" question here.
The OP asked "if he did the right thing"..
He obeyed the law.
Some people are honest, some are not..
Some obey the law, some don't..
Personally I think he did the right thing.
To pay cash and walk out with them knowing the store owner would probably get shafted in the end shows little character in my opinion.

Zundfolge
January 8, 2009, 12:38 PM
Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking.


Furthermore, if the FFL got audited by the BATFE, there's a real good chance the OP would have to turn in these two lowers and he'd be out them ... he might not go to jail (however receiving them across state lines is a crime so he probably would) but at the least he'd be out his lowers ... and possibly have his dog shot, kitten stomped or house burned down in the process.

There's nothing really illegal doing so, it's all the dealer's problem.
Jeebus kurtmax, I hope you're not practicing law anywhere. :uhoh:

ACCEPTING SHIPMENT across state lines of a firearm without going through an FFL is a FELONY. Taking the "parts" and going home would be "Accepting shipment across state lines". The only reason he wouldn't actually do time is if F-Troop promised to go light on him for his testimony against the FFL (who would probably spend the rest of his life in jail and lose everything).


Don't F with F-Troop, they'll F you up.

waterhouse
January 8, 2009, 01:17 PM
You did the right thing by letting your dealer know. Some dealers have never sold an AR15 in their lives. Without some basic knowledge it is easy to understand not knowing that the funny shaped piece of aluminum is a "firearm".

Someone, somewhere, has a bound book showing that those lowers were shipped to your dealer. If he actually received them but they don't show up in his bound book, he is in real trouble.

An interesting point. Typically the ATF checks that all guns in the bound book that are logged out have a matching 4473 to show where they went, and that all guns in the bound book that are not logged out are on the premises.

If a dealer did not log in a lower because he thought it was a part (i.e. he treated it like a barrel or magazine), and then he handed the lower to a customer, the likelihood of getting caught for this mistake is fairly small.

It isn't like the ATF can walk in, look at my books, and then say "we are going to start calling dealers at random to see if anyone sent you something that you didn't log in." Really the only way this would come up is on a firearms trace.

Zundfolge
January 8, 2009, 01:45 PM
If a dealer did not log in a lower because he thought it was a part (i.e. he treated it like a barrel or magazine), and then he handed the lower to a customer, the likelihood of getting caught for this mistake is fairly small.
Except that the manufacturers bound book shows these two receivers being shipped to this FFL, if they follow up that transaction, then the FFL has to explain why they were never entered into his bound book.

I believe the ATF regularly audits both dealers and manufacturers, so its not unreasonable to expect this error to be caught.

At any rate, even if it is slim, its not worth the risk to the OP or the FFL.

TimRB
January 8, 2009, 01:46 PM
'It isn't like the ATF can walk in, look at my books, and then say "we are going to start calling dealers at random to see if anyone sent you something that you didn't log in."'

True. It would take an investigation of the *shipping* dealer to turn this up. But it could happen. In any event, it's not a legal transfer, and I doubt that the receiving dealer saying "I didn't know it was a firearm" would help much. In that case I think he could consider himself lucky if he only lost his license.

Tim

Art Eatman
January 8, 2009, 01:47 PM
Better to be honest. That allows for self-respect. Anybody who would have taken those lowers and left isn't worth zilch/zip/nada as a person. Sorry trash. Would probably do Evil Things with chickens.

waterhouse
January 8, 2009, 01:57 PM
Thanks Art, hardest I've laughed in at least a week.

JohnBT
January 8, 2009, 02:10 PM
Years ago I had an indoor range offer to let me walk off with a transferred Caspian frame without doing any paperwork. Well, an employee did, but I suggested he ask the boss. Boss = not happy.

Employee = "But it's not a gun!"

John

Geno
January 8, 2009, 02:22 PM
Know the law; follow the law. Hate the law...change it! Until then follow it.

Doc2005

Hoppy590
January 8, 2009, 02:31 PM
for some reason i didnt read the T in "OTC" so i read this thread as

"FFL dealer tried to OC me!"

i was expecting a tale of antics and shenanigans ending with some one getting maced...

this thread was just as good. you did well by covering your ass. did the shop not wonder why they were being shipped to him? and why he had to send an FFL copy to get them?

was it a company he normally dealt with so they already had his FFL?

Jim K
January 8, 2009, 02:40 PM
I know this is OT, but years ago when banks first started using computers, it was not always realized that the computer only "knew" what people told it.

In California, a man named Pacifico went into his bank to put $20 into his savings account. When he got the passbook back it showed a balance of $250,046.22. He told the teller the $46.22 was his but the rest was not. The teller told him they had a computer and computers didn't make mistakes. So he went to the held teller, and received the same answer.

He went home and wrote a letter to the bank about the discrepancy. He received a reply from a bank VP saying, "We have a computer and computers don't make mistakes. If you don't like the way we do business, take your money out and go elsewhere."

So he did.

Several days later, the Pacific Gas and Electric Co. asked what happened to their $250,000 deposit.

The bank took the man to court. The judge heard the evidence, read the bank's letter and ruled that the money belonged to Mr. Pacifico.

The judge further ordered the bank to pay all of its former customer's legal expenses plus compensate him for his time.

Once in a while the little guy who tries to be honest wins one.

Jim

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 8, 2009, 03:11 PM
I went to a pharmacy a couple years ago to pick up some prescriptions.

The pharmacist holds up a little bottle of Valium, without a label and tells me the "rest of your Valium are here."

I didn't know what he was talking about. I went through the drive through and took them all back to him.

I then called the main headquarters, told them the whole story and then asked if their pharmacists are taking medications out of the bottles and taking them at their own will.

I think the answer was something like "we certainly hope they aren't." To which I replied "well the guy SURE seemed like he was!"

I had also heard of a different banking story. A woman went to cash her check and the teller cashed it. The woman was walking away, counting her cash. The woman returned to the teller and stated "you seem to have maken a mistake when you cashed my check." The teller immediately scolded the woman for walking away BEFORE counting her money, and told the woman in no uncertain terms that "the money is just as it is, since you walked away BEFORE counting it, I cannot change anything now." Kind of perplexed the woman told the teller "that's OK, you gave me $40 too much," and proceeded to then leave! Perhaps we should sometimes THINK BEFORE SPEAKING!

Bubba613
January 8, 2009, 03:30 PM
As to the OP, find another dealer. Someone who doesn't know that a receiver is a firearm (and there is a space for it now on the new 4473) is likely to make even more mistakes that might cost you time and money.

If ATF audited and discovered they would probably confiscate them. They might give them back after you submitted to a background check.

A few years ago, a new FFL confided in me that he would be willing to sell me some stuff "off the books," from his "personal collection." I was standing at his store counter at the time. I advised him that I didn't think he had that option, and even if he did, it probably wasn't a very smart way to do business.
Well yeah, actually he does have that option. Whatever he did may or may not be relevant to the outcome of his business. It's an area that dealers really need to be careful about and I am sure some of them abuse it.

DoctorJC
January 8, 2009, 03:51 PM
Until my retirement this year (Jan6) I worked in a machine shop that made among other things, custom rifle parts. As soon as the receivers were milled to the point where they were recognizable, they were serial numbered and recorded in the trusy ol' bound book. at that point, no barrel, no trigger "FCG", no stock, it was still a "Firearm" and the owner recorded it on penalty of losing his FFL.

Eightball
January 8, 2009, 06:04 PM
Someone who doesn't know that a receiver is a firearm (and there is a space for it now on the new 4473) is likely to make even more mistakes that might cost you time and money.This is the bit that confuses me. They just got new forms....did they not LOOK at them to see what was different? Did they look and not think "gee, maybe we should figure out what "frame/receiver" means on this form:?

You did the right thing. If something ever happens to that dealer, your stuff is probably safe, whilst the other ones could be tracked down, in the middle of the night, by F-troop and JBTs.

Plus, you have a clean conscience.

2RCO
January 8, 2009, 06:17 PM
I wouldn't want a dealer to lose their license over something I could stop. So I would have had them fill out the paperwork.

2RCO
January 8, 2009, 06:28 PM
I had also heard of a different banking story. A woman went to cash her check and the teller cashed it. The woman was walking away, counting her cash. The woman returned to the teller and stated "you seem to have maken a mistake when you cashed my check." The teller immediately scolded the woman for walking away BEFORE counting her money, and told the woman in no uncertain terms that "the money is just as it is, since you walked away BEFORE counting it, I cannot change anything now." Kind of perplexed the woman told the teller "that's OK, you gave me $40 too much," and proceeded to then leave! Perhaps we should sometimes THINK BEFORE SPEAKING!

I don't buy that one and as someone with several years in banking this is how that scenario plays out. ---Teller apologizes and asks what the problem was and lady says you gave me too much and gives it back. If lady keeps it she is technically stealing(however no one is calling the cops--funds are debited from her account). Either way teller's cash drawer is counted down and balanced to verify.

If teller acts as in the story you told--Manager or Head Teller becomes aware and Teller quite likely loses job for poor customer service and violation of policy.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 8, 2009, 06:38 PM
That story was told to me by someone in the mid 1970's and the guy who told me - his mother knew the woman who got the extra money.

So, although I learned about it in the mid-1970's, I'm sure it was quite a bit before that that this actually occurred.

Don't believe me, I don't care. I know what was told to me and I believe the person more than I believe you.

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