Rant about new gun law. Is this real?


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7mmsavage
January 9, 2009, 07:08 AM
I was in one of my favorite local gun stores yesterday, when I heard something that has made my blood boil for several reasons. I was looking for some scope rings, which are kept behind the counter, so I had to wait while the guy behind the counter showed another customer a Sig 556 rifle. After a few minutes the other customer says, "I'll take it", and starts to pull out his I.D.'s. "What do you need?"he asks. The answer is what got me steamed. "For a rifle or pistol, a Va driver's liscense and something else with your address, BUT FOR AN ASSAULT RIFLE, we need a birth certificate or something to prove you are a citizen.

This is something I hadn't heard before, so I spoke up and asked if that is a Virginia law or a store policy. The employee says, "I think it's a federal law". I replied, without really thinking I was being rude, "A federal law, that's terrible". The employee says, "You say terrible, but I wouldn't want someone who's not a citizen getting their hands on this", as he holds the Sig up in front of him. After he finished helping the customer, he walked back by me without making eye contact and dissapeared into the back of the store. I stood there for a few minutes and finally left, never did get my scope rings.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with the guy following the rules, but I figured a fellow gun enthusiast would be equally frustrated with new rules being made up for certain guns. I am even more upset that there must be some list of what guns are "assault rifles". After I left, I really started thinking about what else is considered an assault rifle, a mini 14, a saiga, an SKS, M1a or even a Garand? I'm sure someone out there has recently bought an AR or AK, has anyone else run into this?

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everallm
January 9, 2009, 07:19 AM
Utter BS, full stop, end of story.

7mmsavage
January 9, 2009, 07:27 AM
I hope you are right, I googled the subject a little and couldn't find anything about it. I do know this same gun shop had an AR on display that had a sign on it saying 'You must be 21 to purchase', so maybe it's just a store policy and an ill informed employee.

everallm
January 9, 2009, 08:08 AM
As far as I am aware the only state the has restrictions on permanent residents (other than the federal NICS , must also show 90 days of utilities bills) is Washington state.

Even this has nothing to do with "assault weapons" but about a particularly stupid permit system.

VA doesn't but does re-iterate the federal law that aliens who are NOT permanent resident aliens (Green Card holders) cannot hold "assault firearms.

So any PRA is permitted to purchase, just needs to show, as they do everywhere, their Green Card, state issued photo ID and 90 days of utility bills.

The no birth certificate, no "assault weapon" is bull as is the "Must be 21" rule, law says 18

Precis of the law linked

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=VA

vt357
January 9, 2009, 08:50 AM
Actually it is a Virginia law - you must prove citizenship/permanent residency to purchase an assault rifle. This law is not new.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2

In addition, no dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any assault firearm to any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence. To establish citizenship or lawful admission for a permanent residence for purposes of purchasing an assault firearm, a dealer shall require a prospective purchaser to present a certified birth certificate or a certificate of birth abroad issued by the United States State Department, a certificate of citizenship or a certificate of naturalization issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, an unexpired U.S. passport, a United States citizen identification card, a current voter registration card, a current selective service registration card, or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

See this old discussion thread for more info.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282797

ETA: As everallm pointed out, permanent residency also applies, not just citizenship. But you still must provide one of the listed documents to purchase one.

ravonaf
January 9, 2009, 09:27 AM
That's an odd law considering there is no such thing as an assault firearm. Where do they get the exact definition of such a thing? I know I am always required to show 2 forms of ID (drivers license and voter registration card) for all firearms purchases.

everallm
January 9, 2009, 09:53 AM
VT357

Read all the statute it says

or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence, thats a Green Card holder a.k.a. Permanent Resident Alien

As I already stated above this is just a re-iteration of the federal law and all you do is show your Green Card, photo ID and proof of 90 day residence

or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

No requirements for citizenship, no US passport, no US birth certificate

An "assault firearm" in VA is defined as a semi automatic, center fire rifle or pistol with a greater than 20 round magazine. NOT the ability to accept a greater than 20 round capacity magazine

You can buy it with a 20 round mag, buy a 30 round mag separately and it's not an assault firearm.......It's stupid but it's the way the law is written

vt357
January 9, 2009, 09:53 AM
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2

About halfway down the page:

"Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

Since the AR has a threaded muzzle, under this law one can assume that it has been designed so that it can "accommodate a silencer." (Not legal advice)

Virginia also has a law against carrying assault weapons in certain localities (most of highly populated cities/counties in the state), though CHP holders are exempt from that law.

JDoe
January 9, 2009, 10:17 AM
I thought U.S. citizenship or being a green card holder was a federal pre-requisite to purchasing any firearm in the U.S. That makes the Virginia law pointless doesn't it?

exflatlander
January 9, 2009, 10:24 AM
Move to Massachusetts - I need to show my LTC just to buy ammunition.

ravonaf
January 9, 2009, 10:24 AM
"Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

So just for clarification. It has to be sold with a magazine that holds more than 20 at the time of sale? Or is capable of holding a 20 round magazine? The "and" sounds very definitive. I would read that as a requirement to meet the definition and so a firearm sold with a 20 round mag or less is NOT an "Assault firearm".

Bubba613
January 9, 2009, 10:25 AM
They're gun laws. They don't have to make sense.

I've never asked anyone for a birth certficate or passport (I had one customer use a passport once as ID but thats different). If they're non citizens then they check that information on the form and fill in the A number.

To my knowledge a green-card alien has every right that a U.S. citizen does except the right to vote.

everallm
January 9, 2009, 10:40 AM
The "and" is definitive and means at the immediate time of sale.

If it didn't then, for example every Glock, HK, CZ etc pistol would be an assault weapon as after market magazines greater than 20 rounds are all available.

There is no prohibition on buying 20+ round magazines by anyone.

Note, it is not prohibited to own or make it an "assault weapon", it is prohibited to buy in that configuration....if your actually not allowed to buy it anyway in an illegal manner as your not a citizen OR legal permanent resident alien......:banghead:

Oh, or use it in a crime......:what:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury the individual is charged with slaughtering 21 Shriners as he hated the little hats AND HE DID IT WITH AN ASSAULT FIREARM"

In any case as I already said it's moot as it doesn't affect legal PRA's

BBQLS1
January 9, 2009, 10:53 AM
404 Error: Assault Rifle not found.

mcdonl
January 9, 2009, 11:52 AM
I was a Dicks Sporting goods recently, and I was going to make a purchase. I did not remember to give my SSN on the form, I usualy skip optional questions as a rule. This always results in a delay.

I said thats cool, I will just come back in 72 hours, as the law says if the NICS has not returned a denial by then, to proceed with the sale. The guy behind the counter said it is thier policy to wait 30 full days before the sale. And he said, usually they re-submit the NICS check.

When they called me the next day with the proceed, I explained to them that it is becoming difficult enough with the laws to purchase a firearm that we do not need stores making it harder, and that I would take my business elsewhere.

Sorry to hi-jack, just seemed to fit.

leroy

CDH
January 9, 2009, 12:18 PM
I was a Dicks Sporting goods recently, and I was going to make a purchase. I did not remember to give my SSN on the form, I usualy skip optional questions as a rule. This always results in a delay.

When I bought a pistol a few weeks ago, the guy behind the counter suggested that it was not required to give my SSN on "the form".
He said it was none of their damn business.

He's right, it isn't required to give your SSN when you buy a gun.

Prince Yamato
January 9, 2009, 01:03 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Virgina also has a law that says you can't CCW a gun with a magazine that holds greater than 20 rounds, correct?

everallm
January 9, 2009, 01:03 PM
From the ATF's web site FAQ's

(P33) Is the transferee required to provide his or her social security number on the ATF Form 4473? [Back]

No. This information is solicited on an optional basis. However, providing this information will help ensure the lawfulness of the sale and avoid the possibility that the transferee will be incorrectly identified as a felon or other prohibited person.

[27 CFR 478.124]

It just makes it easier for the NICS check to differentiate between folks with a common name...John Smith etc

tang22
January 9, 2009, 10:56 PM
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but Virgina also has a law that says you can't CCW a gun with a magazine that holds greater than 20 rounds, correct?"

Sort of. You are referring to § 18.2-287.4.

You can't carry some weapons in SOME locations, but there is an exception if you have a CCW license. So really,this just means you can't open carry those weapons in certain areas without a license.

Here is the full statute:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor."

devildog66
January 11, 2009, 06:00 PM
Simply utter crappola.

ACBMWM3
January 11, 2009, 06:29 PM
I have purchased handgns, long guns and assult weapons in Washington state, also have my carry permit and have NEVER been asked for utilities bills in Washington state...

DarkCharisma
January 11, 2009, 06:29 PM
Full of crap, I unless there was some legislation passed in the last 2 months--I picked up my AR in Dec., ordered it in Nov., and was asked for no such thing.

MAKster
January 11, 2009, 07:22 PM
The requirement to prove citizenship or legal permanent residency before purchasing an "assault firearm" is a Virginia state law that has been on the books since the early 1990s. It was enacted after Pakistani national Mir Aimal Kasi used an AK-47 to kill two people and wound three others stopped at a traffic light near the entrance to the CIA headquarters in Virginia in 1993. If your second form of ID is a voter registration card you are fine.

sernv99
January 12, 2009, 09:57 PM
I'm glad they ask for proof of US citizenship. We don't need anymore of these ticking time bombs, as noted above, to be screwing things up and giving the anti-gunners more reasons to press hard for gun control. I think they should restrict all gun ownership to US citizens only, not green card holders, perm. residents, etc.

plus read the news....lot of gun trafficking coming out of the US and into Mexico. We don't need to compound the problem with having non-US citizens buying guns and slipping them out of the country.

everallm
January 13, 2009, 08:44 AM
Sernv99

Lets see,

Green Card holders have had to go through extensive background checks, FBI and criminal checks, education verification, fingerprinting and everything except having a microchip installed.

They pay taxes, have to register for selective service and so can be called up, have to prove they have been a resident at their home location for at least 90 days every time they fill in a 4473 etc etc.

And this makes them a "ticking time bomb" ?

As for

lot of gun trafficking coming out of the US and into Mexico. We don't need to compound the problem with having non-US citizens buying guns and slipping them out of the country.

Guess what......generally done by US citizens since they don't have to go through the extra hoops a Green Carder does.

moooose102
January 13, 2009, 08:59 AM
another "gustoppo" state. yipiee.

Izaak Walton
January 13, 2009, 09:38 AM
It was enacted after Pakistani national Mir Aimal Kasi used an AK-47 to kill two people and wound three others stopped at a traffic light near the entrance to the CIA headquarters in Virginia in 1993.

No flame intended.
Isn’t this just like our govt?
Hey! Murder is illegal, now we’ll have to pass another law!

MAKster
January 13, 2009, 11:32 AM
There is no reason to get worked up about this trivial requirement. It doesn't slow down the buying process by a second. Most people probably use a form of ID that is only available to U.S. citizens or permanent residents anyway so they are totally unaware that this requirement even exists. The only people who would be affected are illegal immigrants and people in the country on temporary work visas.

Ron-Bon
January 13, 2009, 11:41 AM
I live in VA, and when I brought my AK, I had to show my birth certificate

cambeul41
January 15, 2009, 03:53 PM
MAKster

Most people probably use a form of ID that is only available to U.S. citizens or permanent residents anyway

Please explain. The last I heard those on student, work, and perhaps other non-permanent visas could get the most common form of ID -- driver's licences.

MAKster
January 15, 2009, 05:38 PM
To purchase a firearm from an FFL you need to show two forms of ID with the same address. A government issued photo ID (drivers license) and a second ID. In order to purchase an "assault firearm" that second ID must be something that proves you are a U.S. citizen or legal permanent resident. According to the Virginia State Police,
one of the following must be presented to purchase an assault firearm:

a certified birth certificate or certificate of birth abroad issued by the US State Department,
an un-expired US Passport,
a U. S. citizen identification card,
a current voter registration card,
a current selective service registration card,
an immigrant or registration card issued by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and
a certificate of citizenship or a certificate of naturalization issued by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

Roccobro
January 16, 2009, 04:48 PM
I would never dream of taking my birth cert out of the safe, let alone to go to the gun store. And I live in CA!

Social Sec Num- optional
Birth Certificate- REQUIRED!

And you say WE have it bad here. SHEESH!

Justin

MAKster
January 17, 2009, 02:17 PM
Voter registration card works. No need to show your birth certificate.

SCKimberFan
January 17, 2009, 03:11 PM
Move to Massachusetts - I need to show my LTC just to buy ammunition.

Home of Teddy & Barney - NO THANKS!!! :barf:

MD_Willington
January 17, 2009, 03:21 PM
Drivers license, green card and if you still have one, Aliens Firearms License here in WA state.... but we're fighting to get AFL struck from the laws for green card holders... SOBs are licensing rights guaranteed under the 14th... no other state does this.

ClicStic
January 17, 2009, 05:19 PM
The Virginia "assault rifle" law does not seem to apply to stripped AR lower receivers.

:cool:

Gungnir
January 17, 2009, 06:04 PM
Hmm...

My Wife recently bought an "Assault Weapon" (XCR she liked it better that a number of 5.56 NATO AR Clones, though not the FN Bullpup, but that was $800 more) in WA (I can't own/possess due to being a Naturalizing Green Card holder).

Requirement Drivers Licence, NICS Check, pay by credit card, done, same as any other long gun.

So is this a VA only law?

jimsmith80
January 19, 2009, 01:24 AM
Having work for the past 3-4 years in a gun shop does not make me an expert on the subject; however it does give supprising insight. You will love this.
Most gun retailer, IE places that sell guns, make up, or missinterpet, or are ignarant of gun laws. That employee probly heard some story some where about "assult rifles" and decided that this is what is ment. Forgoing the fact that the sig 556 is not an assult weapon (I just could not get mine to shoot full auto no matter how hard I pulled the trigger!) It will transfer just like a rifle. The only change the AFT has made recently in this area that would be even close is that now a stripped lower reciver from an AR-15 can only be transfered to a person older that 21. This is because it can be built into a pistol.
These people simply are to ignorant to take the time to learn about their job. But don't feel bad because tomorrow they will be in the footwear department. It is sad that more than 50% of the gun shops I have been to; if you stand and listen for 20 mins, the employees will either lie, say something incorrect, or just make stuff up. Most people don't have the charerter to simply say "you know, I just don't know that one let me look it up." Instead they make something up, and "oh it's the law!"

Buggs me to no end.
as I am sure you can tell

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