[spEKTre]

Hi and thanks in advance for any replies, I am new to reloading and want to know how critical to reloading 38 super +P and 38 Special Hand gun rounds is the air space between the powder and the projectile ?

Also is it possible to measure the crimp pressures as I have a RCBS Bullet puller and my first test crimp I had to bang about 6 times quite firmly to remove the projectile from the shell.

Thanks

[Mal H]

In the majority of cases, the airspace between the bullet and the powder is completely immaterial. You should be concerned only with the correct weight of powder and correct OAL for the particular bullet being used. The bullet-powder gap can vary from nothing (a compressed load) to almost the entire length of the case for very light loads of fast powders in large capacity cases such as the .45 Colt.

I don't know of a repeatable method to measure crimp strength with any tool readily available to the average reloader. Most of us go by the look of the crimp to determine if it is adequate or not.

Banging an inertial bullet puller 6 times isn't all that unusual. Often the technique used to bang the puller is instrumental in how effective it is - and also what type of surface you are banging on.

What caliber of round were you disassembling? If .38 Super or Spcl, what weight bullet and what type of crimp?

[spEKTre]

Well my first dry run without using powder or new Primer was with a .38 super +P using a 147 Grain Semi Wad Cutter. Now to be perfectly honest I don't know why the guy at the Ammo shop recommended this weight Proj. and the Powder he sold me was ADI AP70N so I could use the same for super and special.

I want to use the .38 super +p's for just some 25 meter turning targets and the 38 special for 50 meter field targets.

Any advice for Projectile weights shapes and powders would be very much appreciated as I am just starting out :)

I have just bought a Custom Limited Tanfoglio HB .38 Super and a Smith and Wesson 686 6" 357 Mag but have been shooting a 22LR Unique for a year or so now.

[Galil5.56]

Spektre,

AP70N will work well for high intensity .38 Special loads. Personally I like lead in .38 Special, with the tried and true 158 grain RN/SWC being my favorite for high velocity, hard hitting, accurate results. AP70N is also known as "Universal Clays" in the U.S., but please confirm this with ADI/Hodgdon before using any data with that name.

Although AP70N will produce nice std velocity .38 Super ammo, I would suggest you look for AP100N, and try more traditional weight bullets of around 125-135, lead or jacketed in round nose for hi-velocity results. In a 5" .38 Super it looks like some pretty snappy results can be had with AP100N, and only actual use will determine accuracy. You say you are new at this, and if you might like some one-on-one help via PM, drop me a line anytime.

Good luck!

[Hound_va]

Dial calipers let you measure the amount of crimp you're applying. Case mouth / crimp specs are typically listed in the reloading manuals for each particular cartridge and depending on whether you're using jacketed or lead can typically be adjusted to be equal to or a few thousandths smaller than the spec listed in the manual.

[rfwobbly]

Spek -
Welcome to reloading. You've gotten some great replies here.

I'm going to get into trouble, but attached are diagrams of the typical powder fill to help you better understand. This is NOT to say that every powder fills this way, but generally this is what you look for.

• Generally speaking, you want a powder that fills most of the cartridge case. Very shallow powder fills result in inaccurate shots simply because the powder is free to redistribute itself within the case and therefore burn differently on each shot.

• Since the case is over half empty, there is also a very real possibility of getting a double powder charge. A "double load" represents a very real danger to the shooter.


Normally, what you hope to see is the powder filling approx ~3/4 of the cartridge case, so that the above 2 conditions cannot exist. Double loading is a concern with all reloads, but is especially an area of concern on cases that were originally intended for black powder (38 Spl, 30-30 Win, etc) since the cases are generally larger than needed for modern smokeless powders. (For example compare the case of a 38 Spl to a 9mm Luger.)

Since smokeless powders are generally more dense than black powder, "fluffy" varieties such as Unique and Trail Boss tend to find favor among reloaders of these older cartridges. Some of these powders are so "un-dense" that they completely fill the case, leaving zero air space. Sometimes they fill the case so much that the bullet has to "smoosh" the powder down to get fully seated.... resulting in "compressed loads".


Note that "smoosh" is a highly technical term used by highly technical reloaders. :D


So to answer your question "how critical is the air space?" It depends a great deal on the density of the powder you choose.

Hope this helps!

[Jim Watson]

Airspace means very little in pistol ammunition, assuming the load is within the normal range of chamber pressure. There have been a lot of good quality .38 Specials loaded with dense powders like Bullseye, for example.

There was a gunzine writer who took an interest in density of loading for pistols and was going to test such propellants as Power Pistol in target loads versus the usual fast dense powders. If it made any real difference, I have not read of it; and would expect him to have gotten a feature article out if it had.

[Galil5.56]

That's a nice visual rfwobbly to illustrate what you wrote. I always search out a propellant with a higher, rather than lower load density as my first choice for pistol, revolver and rifle rounds.

Nice too that we have many propellants of very similar pressure curves, that are available in ball, flake and extruded. This allows you to use a propellant of a speed you like, and still tailor the load density. .308 and .223 are two that come to mind where having moderate speed ball powders perfectly match this belief.

[spEKTre]

Thanks alot guys I will get into making a few test rounds and borrow a friends chronograph and let you know of the results :)

[zxcvbob]

That was a very nice visual, but it doesn't mean anything for pistol cases. Small charges of high-density powders (like Titegroup) work very well in pistol cartridges -- even volumous cases like .38 Special and .45 Colt. But I tend to avoid them because it's hard to see the powder when you inspect the charge before seating the bullet.

Red Dot is a good fluffy powder that is cheap to shoot and gives excellent accuracy. (might not be available in Oz)

AP70N should work great. AS50N should be a good powder for the .38 Special; not sure about using it in the Super.

[rfwobbly]

zxcvbob "Small charges of high-density powders (like Titegroup) work very well in pistol cartridges -- even voluminous cases like .38 Special and .45 Colt."

IMHO there's no way to prove of disprove this statement since neither of us can see inside, all I know it what I've read. Maybe my authors were particularly talking rifle, maybe they were talking rifle and pistol. To me it inferred both.

I've posted another graphic in post #6 above to further clarify my concerns about using dense powders in large cases. Take a look. The deal is, without stopping to point the gun at the ceiling, there's really no way of telling how the powder might be distributed.



Galil "I always search out a propellant with a higher, rather than lower load density as my first choice for pistol, revolver and rifle rounds."

To me that is the safest approach and one which I follow. I don't like to keep 20 powders on hand, but I believe most 3 or 4 caliber reloaders should be able to shoot all the bullet weights and still get by with possibly 5 well-chosen powders.

[rcmodel]

there's no way to prove of disprove this statement since neither of us can see inside,
Maybe, but 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a 148 grain HB wadcutter leave about a casefull of air.

And it was winning NRA Bullseye pistol matches & setting records before many of us were born.

rcmodel

[Mal H]

Very true. Theory and empirical data don't always merge in this reloading game. I'm not convinced that a small volume of powder in a large volume case yields a widely varying degree of performance (i.e., bullet velocity) all other things being equal.

[rfwobbly]

RCM "Maybe, but 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a 148 grain HB wadcutter leave about a casefull of air.

And it was winning NRA Bullseye pistol matches & setting records before many of us were born."

Then I'll graciously concede the point. Thanks to all of you, for the learning and the lesson.

Not all the threads on this forum are visited by such an august council of knowledgeable gentlemen, but this one has certainly been. I sincerely appreciate the lesson.

[zxcvbob]

rfw, Don't concede just yet :D
Your middle picture, where the powder can be bunched up against the bullet or bunched up against the primer, is a valid concern for light charges of some middle-to-slow powders. AFAIK, it's only a problem if you are loading near (or below) the minimums, and not even a problem then with some of the very fast or energetic powders. Titegroup for example was designed to give very low standard deviations regardless of position in the case. (I still don't like Titegroup, for reasons that have nothing to do with its performance.) And RC has already told you about Bullseye.

[Redneck with a 40]

I personally like powders such as Unique, which tend to fill cases for a give charge weight, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP. No particular reason, but I like my bullet to be resting on the powder, or slightly compressed. So far I've loaded 40 S&W with Unique, Universal, Blue Dot, and Longshot. All of these give great performance.

[rfwobbly]

zxcvbob - "Your middle picture, where the powder can be bunched up against the bullet or bunched up against the primer, is a valid concern for light charges of some middle-to-slow powders. AFAIK, it's only a problem if you are loading near (or below) the minimums, and not even a problem then with some of the very fast or energetic powders."


zxcvbob -
Your point is well taken. And your statement reflects the mental picture I had conjured for this condition. Obviously, someone needs to sit down with a pistol-length test barrel, 49 pistol powders, and fire some rounds for us! :rolleyes:

And too, just because I concede doesn't mean I'll be making it a personal practice from now on either. :D

Thanks for the kind words.

[Galil5.56]

Out of curiosity I checked a sized WW .38 Special Super Match case charged with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, and measured its level from the case mouth. Subtracting the full diameter shank length (not very top of the dome, just base to shoulder) of a Hornady BB swaged wadcutter seated to a depth just enough below the casemouth to form a gentle roll crimp.

The air space was .232"... Downright cramped proportional to original volume, and a lot higher load density than expected. Even with a 148 grain HB WC, the actual volume of air space logically follows that it be very close to the BB.

[Walkalong]

I have played a lot lately with small charges of fast powder with .38 Spl and downloaded .357 cases. Some of the powders are very position sensitive, and some do pretty well.

Try this. Test your favorite 125 or 158 Gr .38 target load.

Shoot a couple of shots over the chrono after pointing the muzzle up to get the powder back in the case. (Against the primer) Then shoot a couple more over the chrono after holding the gun barrel down and slowly bringing it up, leaving the charge to the front. (Against the bullet)

Be sure to bring a brass rod and hammer, just in case. ;)

148 Gr WC's or 148 Gr HBWC's do better since they fill up more of the case, but are not immune.

Titegroup for example was designed to give very low standard deviations regardless of position in the case. (I still don't like Titegroup, for reasons that have nothing to do with its performance.)
Me either.
Red Dot is a good fluffy powder that is cheap to shoot and gives excellent accuracy.Agreed

[Galil5.56]

AS50N should be a good powder for the .38 Special

Shame they have so little data for AS50N, A.K.A "International Clays" in .38 Special other than one 158 grain Cowboy load. Now if using AP50N, a lot of options open up. I have worked up my own 9mm and 45 auto AS50N loads, and they are very consistent over the screens, and very clean.

Even very recently, an inquiry to Hodgdon concerning International Clays pistol loads would result in "They don't exist, stuff is too peaky..." I guess they never read their own Cowboy section in the manual, showing ADI developed data?

[Remo-99]

a .38 super +P using a 147 Grain Semi Wad Cutter. Now to be perfectly honest I don't know why the guy at the Ammo shop recommended this weight Proj.

spEKTre, A lot of target shooters have a preference for the heavier .356" 147gr LSWC's in 38super.

ADI don't list AS50N or AP50N in their online data for 38super, but they have some data for 38special with AP50N.

Nothing for AP100 in 38special, and only some data for the 38super.
So AP70N does have data to cover both calibres.

http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/index.asp

[Black Dime]

For eight years I have used reduced loads in 45 Colt and 38 Special. I started with Red Dot and changed to American Select.
45 Colt
4.2 grs American Select with a 165gr truncated cone. Powder never seemed to be position sensitive and gave consistent ignition.
38 Special
3.2 grs Anerican Select with a 105gr truncated cone. Same results.

Trail Boss is a new powder shaped like very, very, small doughnuts. This powder was created for cowboys and cowgirls who, like me, use reduced loads and created a lot of unused space within the case. I have never loaded with Trail Boss. My loads (and crimps) work very well.

We use single action pistols and lever action rifles requiring a good roll crimp. I am aware that this will not work with the semi-aauto. It seems that if you have a very tight roll crimp in a revolver cartridge, the case will hold onto the bullet blowing the case tight against the chamber wall before expelling the bullet. Hence consistent ignition. And clean internals due to little blowback.

I have three Dillon 650s set for 38 spl, 45acp, and 45 Colt. I find that the Dillon crimp die does very well for the 45acp with a tight taper crimp. I use an old Lee crimp die for the 45 Colt and 38 Spl. with the nut on the bottom of the tool head.

[jerkface11]

Maybe, but 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a 148 grain HB wadcutter leave about a casefull of air.

Really? Mine generally result in a casefull of wadcutter.

[Walkalong]

4.2 grs American Select with a 165gr truncated cone. Powder never seemed to be position sensitive and gave consistent ignition.My italics
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

.357 Mag cases...125 Gr Berrys plated TrFP-5.0 Grs American Select-WSP primer (4.9 Grs was better)

6" Trooper Mk III....Avg 926 FPS....ES-74....SD-19....10 shots powder back...Not bad

Same load...two shots powder forward...831 & 832 FPS... not bad...better than several tried. I had some that would show 200 + FPS difference.

.357 Mag cases...125 Gr Berrys plated TrFP-6.0 Grs SR 4756-WSP primer

6" Trooper Mk III....Avg 931 FPS....ES-148....SD-48....10 shots powder back...Not good numbers, but shot well.

Same load...one shot powder forward... did not leave the barrel.:eek:

I had a couple of 158 Gr loads pushing 750ish FPS powder forward that would stick a bullet powder forward. Not good.

Clays was another that did very well in the powder forward powder back tests in .357 cases. I really like it for downloaded .357. (Plated 125's at around 900 FPS and Plated 158's at around 725 FPS)(4.0 & 3.3 Grs)

Examples.....Use data with extreme caution. :uhoh: