Plated Bullets, Factory Crimp Die?


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steve4102
January 11, 2009, 12:04 PM
I am about to start loading for my handguns. I have loaded rifles for years , but I am new to handgun loading.

I have a bunch of Rainier plated bullets for my Glock 23 and my Para 1911. My plan was to, Re-size, Expand, Prime, Charge, Seat Bullet and then finish it off with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Now, I'm not so sure this will work? I read that the Lee Factory Crimp die should not be used with "Plated" bullets. Any truth to this? Any special techniques I should do to crimp these plated bullets?

Thanks
Steve

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rcmodel
January 11, 2009, 12:10 PM
This is more true with revolver calibers then auto pistols.

Your taper crimp for an auto should be so minor as to have no affect on the bullet jacket. All you want to do is iron out the case mouth bell and get the case back to spec again.

The FCD (more of a a roll crimp) for revolvers is capable of actually cutting into or through the plated jacket if there isn't a deep enough crimping cannelure in the bullet.

Auto pistol bullets don't have a crimping cannelure.

rcmodel

MMCSRET
January 11, 2009, 12:11 PM
Where did you read this? Speer says don't use it but thats just intermanufacturer rivalry. I have used them on plated bullets and Speer bullets(DEFIANCE SYNDROME) to good purpose.

steve4102
January 11, 2009, 12:27 PM
I read it on Glock Talk.

Yeah, I know about the pissing match between Richard Lee and Speer. Speer claims that using the LFCD(rifle) will degrade accuracy 40%, what a childish bunch of BS.

steve4102
January 11, 2009, 12:29 PM
Your taper crimp for an auto should be so minor as to have no affect on the bullet jacket. All you want to do is iron out the case mouth bell and get the case back to spec again.


Perfect, Thanks!

ReloaderFred
January 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
Just adjust your FCD so it only crimps enough to remove the case mouth flare. If the neck tension is sufficient, you won't need anymore than that.

Hope this helps.

Fred

hoptob
January 11, 2009, 02:19 PM
FCD can be easily adjusted to the desired amount of crimp. From none at all, to taper, to heavy roll crimp.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/hoptob/crimp-1.jpg

Now, how much crimp you want will depend on the bullet. Xtreme's have thin plating and I do as Speer suggests -- just removing the bell (round on the left has Xtreme bullet). Berry's on the other hand have thick plating, it's almost as thick as some jackets. So, for Berries I apply medium taper crimp. Haven't used Rainiers - they cost too much for plated bullets.

Mike

45Badger
January 11, 2009, 02:19 PM
Just adjust your FCD so it only crimps enough to remove the case mouth flare. If the neck tension is sufficient, you won't need anymore than that.

Hope this helps.

Fred

What Fred said. The intention of a crimp die is not to crush/crunch/crinkle the case mouth into the side of the bullet. Snug fit and easy chambering is all you need/want. Think "girdle":)

Blind Bat
January 11, 2009, 03:38 PM
With Rainier's I adjust the FCD to 1/2 turn from touching the case mouth. This is what the directions describe as a light crimp. From the one bullet I've pulled the FCD appears to leave a very slight ring on the bullet. I've tried smacking bullets into my work bench and the OAL never changes.

under_dawg
January 11, 2009, 03:47 PM
I have used the LFC on West Coast Xtreme 125gr .357 with no problems at all. Just don't over do it. I don't load plated bullets much over lead velocities, so it doesn't need a whole lot of crimp imo. This is the first of heard of a possible problem with the LFC and plated bullets.

RustyFN
January 11, 2009, 03:58 PM
I have used the FCD on a lot of Berry's and Rainier plated bullets without any problems. Just make sure you use a light crimp.
Just adjust your FCD so it only crimps enough to remove the case mouth flare. If the neck tension is sufficient, you won't need anymore than that.

Hope this helps.

Fred
That's how I use the FCD.
Rusty

The Bushmaster
January 11, 2009, 04:26 PM
Hoptob...The final (on the right) is a taper crimp. Not a roll crimp. The top edge would be turned into the cannelure not flattened out against the cannelure as shown...

jfh
January 11, 2009, 04:41 PM
FWIW, I use the FCD as my #4 die--i.e., for crimping only.

When used that way, the FCD die body needs to be "backed up" to light case contact, and the crimping adjustment downward (to heavier) starts from there.

However, it will NOT produce the "modified" crimp the Lee seater-crimper (#3) die does--it's full crimp is like what hoptob shows.

Jim H.

rfwobbly
January 11, 2009, 06:24 PM
RCM "Your taper crimp for an auto should be so minor as to have no affect on the bullet jacket. All you want to do is iron out the case mouth bell and get the case back to spec again."

I don't use a lot of Ranier bullets because it would tie me to Midway, but I do use a LOT of the Berry plated bullets, which are similarly plated.

I use the Lee Taper Crimp Die. I own the Dillon TC die, but I think the Lee does a better job, without such an abrupt crimp. On my 9mm rounds, the book calls for .380 at the case mouth, but my TC die takes them to .377 diameter right at the mouth.

What I do is make up a batch of test rounds, with all the same length cases. Then I advance the TC die until the round will fall all the way into a cartridge gauge using only its own weight. Then stop right there.

Too much crimp will pierce the plating, and that's NOT good.
Too much crimp will leave an indent a round the waist of the bullet, also not good.
For the die setting, use a new test round after each adjustment. The lead and brass will "spring back", so a round previously crimped to .378 will not accurately crimp to .377 dia.

Hope this helps!

hoptob
January 11, 2009, 08:03 PM
The final (on the right) is a taper crimp. Not a roll crimp. The top edge would be turned into the cannelure not flattened out against the cannelure as shown...

Bushmaster,

Can you explain this a little more? I don't really understand what it means "turned into cannelure". Maybe there is a picture somewhere?

Thanks,

Mike

Walkalong
January 11, 2009, 08:14 PM
Imagine a side cutaway view of the cannelure, and then picture the case mouth rolling into it.

Here is a pic posted (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90746&d=1231643031) by Galil5.56 in another thread that shows it. I wish I had a better pic.

Some cannelures these days are just pitiful. They really don't give a groove to crimp into like the quality bullets and good cannelures. little row of

ReloaderFred
January 11, 2009, 08:23 PM
A roll crimp is just that, the brass is rolled over into the cannelure. A taper crimp doesn't roll, it tapers.

I make my own cannelure, when necessary. I've even cannelured Berry's plated bullets for the 357 Sig, and they work just fine.

I use an older C-H Cannelure tool mounted on the end of my loading bench.

Hope this helps.

Fred

The Bushmaster
January 11, 2009, 10:39 PM
Whew...Thanks Walkalong and reloaderFred...I thought I might have to answer that...:D

Hoptob,
Hold your hands in front of you with the palms facing each other. Now curve the fingers in. That's a roll crimp. With the hands in the same position try to bend just your fingers back. That's a taper crimp...That help?;)

hoptob
January 11, 2009, 11:14 PM
Hey, sure it helps. Really. I just broke my fingers trying, but that's a detail. :neener: Okay, I google'd it and here is what I found.


From http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellg.htm:

Q. What is the difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp?
A. There are actually three types of crimps, roll, taper, and stabbed. The purpose of all three types of crimp is to securely and uniformly hold the bullet in the cartridge case. With a roll crimp the case neck is literally rolled either into the bullet material or a groove in the bullet to secure it. To insure even tensioning cases which are to be roll crimped need to be trimmed to a uniform length. Roll crimps are primarily used on cartridges that headspace on the rim or case shoulder.

The taper crimp is used primarily with cartridge that headspace on the case mouth with lead bullets. While it can be used to secure jacketed bullets this can lead to bullet distortion. With a taper crimp the mouth of the case a run into a die with a tapered opening that squeezes the diameter of the neck down enough to grip the bullet securely but still leaves enough metal to headspace on the chamber.

Stab or ring crimping, used only on jacketed ammunition, consists either several impressed dimples or a groove pressed into the case mouth by a collet. The crimp can either enter a groove on the bullet or can just be pressed into the bullet body (which distorts the bullet). It is primarily used on military or commercial heavy caliber hunting ammunition where rough handling may be encountered. It is the least conducive to accuracy.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/crimps.gif
Crimp Types--L to R: No crimp, stab crimp, taper crimp, roll crimp


:)

Mike

ReloaderFred
January 12, 2009, 01:53 AM
That's a perfect illustration of the three crimp types. It's much easier to see it in the drawings than to describe it.

Fred

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